The Woodlands Town Center Developments

[bachanon]

[PureAuteur]

The Woodlands, Texas. Bohemia on the Bayou.

Some of the people I've met from the Woodlands were like that. Then again, they were under 25. They should get some people from the Pacific Northwest or Vermont to run the Woodlands when/if it incorporates. That would be great.

[JJ18]

..... As it stands now, Market Street has basically the same stores you could find in the Galleria or in the Rice Village.

I've been to The Woodlands Mall & Market Street several times and I've never seen a Neiman Marcus or Saks Fifth Avenue or for that matter a Macy's so no I wouldn't say you'll find the same stores. I disslike cookie cutter looking buildings, in my opinion it makes its self look cheap. its ok for a theme park but not for a real main street.

[bachanon]

when the waterway is completed, it will be the "main street" of town center. market street is a shopping destination in town center, it is not "the" main street. btw, foley's will be macy's any day now. the foley's signs are currently banners covering what i believe will be the new macy's signs.

[mrfootball]

They should get some people from the Pacific Northwest or Vermont to run the Woodlands when/if it incorporates. That would be great.

Ben or Jerry?

BTW, the Democrats don't even run candidates in Montgomery County if that tells you anything.

Edited August 1, 2006 by mrfootball

[JJ18]

when the waterway is completed, it will be the "main street" of town center. market street is a shopping destination in town center, it is not "the" main street. btw, foley's will be macy's any day now. the foley's signs are currently banners covering what i believe will be the new macy's signs.

please Macy's is notting to brag about now that it will be located in every mall average and ghetto in Houston and Texas.

I like the stores in Market Street but hate the architecture it looks cheap and I belive with a little more money and creativity they could have done a better job

[bachanon]

here's a couple more.

anadarko tower 1

waterway view 1

waterway view 2

waterway avenue. buildings left to right: 21 waterway avenue (brian o'neils on retail level), 25 waterway avenue (new street front retail), tinseltown.

the woodlands resident's website is reporting that "221B Baker St. Pub & Grill has announced plans to open a 6,500-square-foot restaurant in November, 2006 in the building (25 waterway), and another 3,500 square feet of space is committed." this will the second late night establishment in town center.

[KatieDidIt]

Hey Bach, have any figures come out on how Market Street stores are doing finacially?

I noticed that unlike Highland Village, Uptown Park and like fabricated centers, Market Street is completely dead on weekdays.... even on weekend afternoons we really haven't seen much activity. It would be interesting how all those stores are doing in comparison to their other locations. However, I kinda like that lack of activity because I can get a spot anywhere and be in and out of a shop quickly.

PS- That Pot Belly sandwich shop is pretty good and cute, don't know about the entertainment though.

[bachanon]

i haven't read anything recently on sales or lack thereof at market street. i've noticed market street has been busier towards the end of the day. at the one year anniversary last year, i read that some retail chains in market street were recording top sales for their company.

there were eight new leases signed at market street this past month. there is a rumor that a boutique hotel may be in the works for the unbuilt parcel west of the parking garage. there is a temporary putt putt golf course there now. i do not think that there would be this much activity if the stores weren't doing well.

i agree with you on day shopping there. 10 AM and 3PM are good times to hit market street.

Edited August 11, 2006 by bachanon

[bachanon]

the thirteen story office building at 24 waterway avenue is set to break ground within the month. it will have retail on the waterway level and/or street level. in the picture above, 24 waterway will be to the right, across the street from 'the goose's acre' (brian o'neill's) and churrasco's.

Edited September 2, 2006 by bachanon

[bachanon]

rumor has it that there will be many cranes in town center in 2007. the rumor about a 10 story boutique hotel in market street has been repeated by a second source as well as the 17 story condo tower at waterway avenue. also, same source has heard that anadarko is considering another 32 story tower to the west of the existing one. this would be east, across the street from waterway square and on the north side of the waterway. add this to the multistory retirement community on grogan's mill at the second phase of the waterway and whalla.....forest of cranes.

[Trae]

I noticed that the Metroplex suburb of Southlake recently opened its Town Square which looks remarkably like Market Street (with a larger 'square').

Wow, exact copy. Well, the suburb is near Dallas .

[Captain Impossible]

I noticed that the Metroplex suburb of Southlake recently opened its Town Square which looks remarkably like Market Street (with a larger 'square').

Actually Southlake Town Square opened in March 1999.

[bachanon]

24 waterway ave rendering

the haynes whaley website has a rendering up for 24 waterway avenue.

[bachanon]

more details. 20 waterway ave announced.

Finishing Touches: Waterway expansions slated for fall

By: ERIN MYERS, Villager staff

09/13/2006

Built from what was once a large drainage ditch, The Woodlands Waterway is one of the community

[PureAuteur]

I was at the Woodlands Mall Sunday at around 4pm, and it felt strangely different than it did the last time I was in there. I almost didn't feel like I was in the Woodlands, but rather somewhere in Houston, like Northline Mall. Do the native Woodlanders just not shop there anymore? Has this mall been "discovered", and if so, why are people from Houston driving so far just to shop at a mall? Another thing I noticed was that there were way too many poser teens, and not just halfway serious, but embarassingly serious poserism. Are these kids raised by televisions and malls? They would realize how stupid they looked if they had a better frame of reference and interacted with adults more. Which leads to my question...

Does the mall really fit in the Town Center anymore? It seems like it just perpetuates the typical mall culture, and thus is not very progressive compared to the rest of the Town Center. Also, it seemed like only about 50% of the people in the mall that afternoon actually lived in Woodlands proper. When I went to Market Street, it was the same way, although there were no teen posers.

Because of the demographic diversity of Market Street and the mall, I am wondering if the concept of "town" in the town center is being lost. I really felt like I was in a true town when I went to Market Street about a year ago, but this time there was no community feel, like I was just in a place where people were coming from all over to visit. It is too focused on the retail and commercial, but should instead feel like a public space. I said once before that getting more locally owned businesses would help this problem. The layout is already perfect for local Woodlanders to relax and enjoy their town.

Going back to the mall, I just think it detracts from the "mature" feel of the town center. I think it should be redeveloped or torn down. They could expand a grid system of streets that connects to Market Street to make the Town Center look more like an actual town, then build more high-rise office buildings mixed with street-lined stores like you'd see in a small town like San Marcos. This is just an idea I've been pondering lately. Anyone else have an opinion on this?

[Pumapayam]

I think it should be redeveloped or torn down. They could expand a grid system of streets that connects to Market Street to make the Town Center look more like an actual town, then build more high-rise office buildings mixed with street-lined stores like you'd see in a small town like San Marcos. This is just an idea I've been pondering lately. Anyone else have an opinion on this?

I agree with the above except what do you do during inclement weather?

Not shop, that is what enclosed malls offer when the town center can't be used.

[TheNiche]

I was at the Woodlands Mall Sunday at around 4pm, and it felt strangely different than it did the last time I was in there. I almost didn't feel like I was in the Woodlands, but rather somewhere in Houston, like Northline Mall. Do the native Woodlanders just not shop there anymore? Has this mall been "discovered", and if so, why are people from Houston driving so far just to shop at a mall? Another thing I noticed was that there were way too many poser teens, and not just halfway serious, but embarassingly serious poserism. Are these kids raised by televisions and malls? They would realize how stupid they looked if they had a better frame of reference and interacted with adults more. Which leads to my question...

Does the mall really fit in the Town Center anymore? It seems like it just perpetuates the typical mall culture, and thus is not very progressive compared to the rest of the Town Center. Also, it seemed like only about 50% of the people in the mall that afternoon actually lived in Woodlands proper. When I went to Market Street, it was the same way, although there were no teen posers.

Because of the demographic diversity of Market Street and the mall, I am wondering if the concept of "town" in the town center is being lost. I really felt like I was in a true town when I went to Market Street about a year ago, but this time there was no community feel, like I was just in a place where people were coming from all over to visit. It is too focused on the retail and commercial, but should instead feel like a public space. I said once before that getting more locally owned businesses would help this problem. The layout is already perfect for local Woodlanders to relax and enjoy their town.

Going back to the mall, I just think it detracts from the "mature" feel of the town center. I think it should be redeveloped or torn down. They could expand a grid system of streets that connects to Market Street to make the Town Center look more like an actual town, then build more high-rise office buildings mixed with street-lined stores like you'd see in a small town like San Marcos. This is just an idea I've been pondering lately. Anyone else have an opinion on this?

This'll never happen. The mall is a cash machine. Though I haven't checked in the last year or so, I recall that it has consistently had some of the lowest vacancy rates of all malls in the Houston area...and some of the higher rents, at that. Only financially-distressed malls get torn down.

Btw, the nature of a regional mall is that it draws from a very very large trade area. If you want more of a community feel, insulated from all those other icky people from outside of your cloistered paradise, you should be advocating the establishment of a retail destination that is further from the freeway...but you're going to have to accept that whatever you get is going to be much much smaller.

[KatieDidIt]

I have always found the Woodlands mall very depressing and never go. It reminds me of the small town malls in NC. I have no problems with the teens hanging out there, being posers, preps or otherwise. This is their time in life to figure things out. And its much better that that's being done inside the mall rather than running around in an outside mall late at night.

As to Woodlanders not using Market Street and the mall, in my experience you are right. Most of the people I know drive into the Galleria to do any major shopping.......I mean who wouldn't? Its a blast of reality and a show all at once. Otherwise most of the "necessity" shopping is done online these days anyway. Its such a hike to get around these parts that most people find it easier to get the size and style, or product, they want right of the net and delivered to their door. Since there are no "multiples" of the same stores up here, you will often spin your wheels trying to find a certain item.

A large portion of the concrete block has been tranformed so maybe that will continue. I really don't care either way, I don't spend time up there, except at the "Central Market" that really isn't.

Now when Churascos opens, that will pull me up there a few times a year.

[PureAuteur]

"A large portion of the concrete block has been tranformed so maybe that will continue."

I'm glad you mentioned this. There has already been transformation to the mall's parking lot, so there is a chance we'll see further transformations, even bolder, in the future. I think the chances of tearing down the mall are slim at this stage, but the more the area gets transformed, the more you'll have that intangible pressure to get rid of the mall itself.

I really think it would help the Town Center. They could rebuild the mall at 2978, which is experiencing tremendous growth, which would make it more accessible to Woodlanders and people in Magnolia/Tomball.

I hate to be classist, but most of the people I saw using the mall on Sunday will probably never have the desire to eat at Flemings in their lifetime. Furthermore, I hate to include human beings when I critique the Town Center's ambiance, but in order to have an aesthetically pleasing and uniform ambiance, you need to have more consistent demographics with adults over 30 far outweighing children and teens and less "takeover" from outsiders. Gosh, I really sound like a snob, and I don't even live in the Woodlands, so I guess I'm an outsider too. The way I talk about things though, I may as well be a resident.

Edited October 2, 2006 by PureAuteur

[JJ18]

who wants to shop in a lame disneyland like place now in days ? , I avoid driving that far up north but when ever I'm in the area I always stop at the mall , and yes its true most people who shop there are from the city, or people who are "zoned" to other malls hahaha, I hate seeing this It gets anoying watching kids walking areound the mall with one Foot Locker bag and snapping pictures like they're in Rodeo Dr. hahaha, and yes people that I know that unfortunately live in Spring/The Woodlands do drive down to shop at The Galleria, its sad in away. The Galleria does get crowded but its just a lot different

[pineda]

Live Feeds from the Law Enforcement in The Woodlands!

Maybe monitoring the police scanner network LIVE! from The Woodlands will make you feel a wee bit safer.

Furthermore, I hate to include human beings into the ambiance of the town center, but they really ought to make Town Center more demographically consistent, which would give the Town Center a more mature feel.

Golly, how would "THEY" do this? And WHY would anyone want to? Your terminology of "demographically consistent" is code-speak for classism, and that's just wrong.

Another thing I noticed was that there were way too many poser teens, and not just halfway serious, but embarassingly serious poserism. Are these kids raised by televisions and malls? They would realize how stupid they looked if they had a better frame of reference and interacted with adults more.

Were you really seriously embarassed by anonymous strangers shopping at a mall? Why do you even care? Why are you paying so much attention to the teens at the mall, anyway? Sounds a little bit creepy there.

Also, it seemed like only about 50% of the people in the mall that afternoon actually lived in Woodlands proper. When I went to Market Street, it was the same way, although there were no teen posers.

According to your research, only 50% of the shoppers at the mall were from The Woodlands? Why does this matter to you? You do realize that just as Katie chooses to go to The Galleria to shop, there are people from areas other than The Woodlands that choose to shop at The Woodlands Mall. But, you go on to say, there are no teen "posers" at Market Street. Does this mean you bought more items at Market Street because of this? Did you buy less at The Woodlands Mall because there were "posers" there? I'm sure you'll be sad to learn that the General Manager over at Market Street was "let go" recently. He was the one who sought to discourage teens from being in Market Street after a certain time, and tried to limit children from playing in the "Central Park" area between Tommy Bahama's and Jasper's.

Because of the demographic diversity of Market Street and the mall, I am wondering if the concept of "town" in the town center is being lost. I really felt like I was in a true town when I went to Market Street about a year ago, but this time there was no community feel, like I was just in a place where people were coming from all over to visit. It is too focused on the retail and commercial, but should instead feel like a public space. I said once before that getting more locally owned businesses would help this problem. The layout is already perfect for local Woodlanders to relax and enjoy their town.

Please tell me that you understand that the Woodlands Mall and Town Center development was not built specifically to service only the needs and desires of the Woodlands-only residents. The whole concept was never to build a little "town center" where only locals congregate and shop. The rents are sky-high at these places; they are meant to draw from a very broad, diverse area. It's made to look attractive to you, so it "attracts" you. The Woodlands Mall and Market Street exist SOLELY to make money, not to just make locals feel better about there. That's just a nice by-product, but not its' sole function.

I think it should be redeveloped or torn down.

And, this is what made me burst out laughing. Yeah, that will happen, tear down the biggest money-maker out there. Right...

I hate to be classist, but...

Then, just STOP!

[PureAuteur]

Okay, Pineda, thanks for tearing me down piece by piece there. I guess I'm just a perfectionist or a utopian, as reflected in my post, but more than anything, I just want a community feel. The reason I was hoping to move to the Woodlands after I got my Master's in the first place was to get away from the anti-city that Houston is becoming in the last 5 years. I guess you're right. The Mall and Town Center are just about the money, and this is a shame, because my grandparents generation would say that a town center should not be just about the money, but about civic life. I always thought the Woodlands was a return to that sort of thing, but if I'm wrong, I may rethink my desire to live there. I would consider San Marcos, TX an ideal town: dominated by locally owned businesses, an aesthetically pleasing grid street system in which the university connects smoothly to the center of town, and a town square that is completely a part of the town's culture and people, and not just some money-making project. Houston Heights neighborhood is also ideal to me, and one of the few parts of Houston where I actually feel like I'm in a community, the others being ethnic communities which might not welcome me as easily as the Heights would.

Also, Pineda, notice how I modified my post in which I don't say "demographically consistent" in the new post. I guess you were eager to jump on my post weren't you?

What would be your ideal Town Center, Pineda, and how would you deal with the Mall? You also misinterpreted my words. It's not like I was fixated on the teens at the mall. But being an intuitive person, I could get a sense of the people I was around just by being there, and poserism was rampant, in addition to superficiality and plastic looking girls/women who might be upper class, but still don't fit into my ideal ambiance for the Town Center. I don't care what social class inhabits the Town Center, as long as they are mature people. Hence why I said " hate to sound classist, but...". So, if what you say is true, that the Woodlands Mall is a regional shopping center marketing to people far outside the Woodlands, then the name "Town Center" becomes a joke and a scam. You're not getting what you think you're getting which is a community. And no, I didn't spend more at Market Street and less at the mall because of "posers", that was just an observation relating to my other point. I didn't spend anything at either, because I don't like the stores there. I prefer locally run businesses.

Edited October 2, 2006 by PureAuteur

[pineda]

Also, Pineda, notice how I modified my post in which I don't say "demographically consistent" in the new post. I guess you were eager to jump on my post weren't you?

Sorry if you feel like I "jumped" on your post. I was taking a break and just pulled up that post, and couldn't believe the stuff I was reading. So, yeah, I responded, maybe a little too quickly, huh?

The Woodlands is a huge money-making machine, make no mistake. All the nice things there are meant to entice one to either move there or come spend your money there or both. The residents who have chosen to move there are what makes the difference, in my opinion.

For instance, the Woodlands schools are very nice buildings, but the teachers and administrators and coaches that are hired to work in those schools are what makes those schools great, not the buildings, not the landscaping.

The Woodlands has a host of community-minded individuals who do put the greater good ahead of profit-making schemes and these people have helped to transform the Woodlands into what it is. The homes and gardens of the Woodlands are all very nice, but it's the people there that make up the community that make the difference.

For example, The Woodlands G.R.E.E.N. organization is a fantastic ecologically-minded group that has created a great awareness and appreciation of the nature the Woodlands has to offer. There are plenty of other groups like this, set up by individuals to serve the greater good.

Would I sway you to move to San Marcos or some other little college town rather than move to The Woodlands? No, you just recognize things for what they are, and find the good, there's plenty of it in The Woodlands, just as there is in San Marcos. If you lived in San Marcos, I'm sure you'd have a different perspective of it than what you do know.

Everywhere has problems, no place is perfect. Even in your wishful thinking of the "good old days", there was plenty of problems back then, too. I don't know if there ever was an "ideal town" anywhere, and I'm not sure I'd want to live there in Pleasantville anyway, would you?

[bachanon]

Okay, Pineda, thanks for tearing me down piece by piece there. I guess I'm just a perfectionist or a utopian, as reflected in my post, but more than anything, I just want a community feel. The reason I was hoping to move to the Woodlands after I got my Master's in the first place was to get away from the anti-city that Houston is becoming in the last 5 years. I guess you're right. The Mall and Town Center are just about the money, and this is a shame, because my grandparents generation would say that a town center should not be just about the money, but about civic life. I always thought the Woodlands was a return to that sort of thing, but if I'm wrong, I may rethink my desire to live there. I would consider San Marcos, TX an ideal town: dominated by locally owned businesses, an aesthetically pleasing grid street system in which the university connects smoothly to the center of town, and a town square that is completely a part of the town's culture and people, and not just some money-making project. Houston Heights neighborhood is also ideal to me, and one of the few parts of Houston where I actually feel like I'm in a community, the others being ethnic communities which might not welcome me as easily as the Heights would.

Also, Pineda, notice how I modified my post in which I don't say "demographically consistent" in the new post. I guess you were eager to jump on my post weren't you?

What would be your ideal Town Center, Pineda, and how would you deal with the Mall? You also misinterpreted my words. It's not like I was fixated on the teens at the mall. But being an intuitive person, I could get a sense of the people I was around just by being there, and poserism was rampant, in addition to superficiality and plastic looking girls/women who might be upper class, but still don't fit into my ideal ambiance for the Town Center. I don't care what social class inhabits the Town Center, as long as they are mature people. Hence why I said " hate to sound classist, but...". So, if what you say is true, that the Woodlands Mall is a regional shopping center marketing to people far outside the Woodlands, then the name "Town Center" becomes a joke and a scam. You're not getting what you think you're getting which is a community. And no, I didn't spend more at Market Street and less at the mall because of "posers", that was just an observation relating to my other point. I didn't spend anything at either, because I don't like the stores there. I prefer locally run businesses.

town center is simply a moniker used to detail a specified area of the woodlands, as is "the research forest", "college park", "grogan's mill", and so on. the mall is simply in the main commercial area of the woodlands. simply because the retail area of grogan's mill is called "grogan's mill village center" (or something like that) does not mean it's going to have a little "village" in it. i think that your expectation for what "town center" is is misguided. town center is bordered by woodlands parkway on the south and lake front circle to the north; i-45 on the east and grogan's mill drive on the west.

if you go to the woodlands development commercial website, you can find demographics on how many kids live in the woodlands. you can also find a breakdown of the enormous amount of people with spending power (regardless of how they look or behave) within ten miles of the woodlands town center. also realize, that the woodlands has many low income, rent controlled areas, all with a large amount of kiddos. nearly 75% of the woodlands homes have children. more than 30% of the population of the woodlands are children (approx. 24,000 kids). 20%-25% of that is teenagers. many of the teenagers hang out at the mall.

the mall circle will evolve as town center grows. by the way, if anyone is paying attention, the board members of TCID are beginning to use the words "downtown" in the woodlands or "the woodlands downtown". i think town center should be kept. however, if others have the misconception about what town center means for the woodlands, a change might be in our future.

Edited October 2, 2006 by bachanon

[PureAuteur]

I did live in San Marcos for 3 years. It was an off and on "like vs. hate" thing, but now that I'm back in Houston, I realize how great of a town San Marcos was.

There was a time when I couldn't stand the idea of a "Pleasantville", but the way Houston has changed since 2001 has led me to appreciate the upside to those types of communities.

[houstonsemipro]

Thw Woodlands is a great place to hang out at. I don't see why these people on here trying to bash Woodlands? I just don't get it. The Woodlands have everything you want, and the homes there are just lovely, with beautiful scenary.

Like Pineda said, Woodlands Mall is a money making machine. Not only the mall, but the town center and market street plays a big role also. Taking the Water Taxis to each destination, as I'm snapping pictures.

One of my dreams is to live in the Woodlands one day, to raise a family there. I have other places in mind, but Woodlands is my first.

Pineda, do you know when they going to brake ground on the Waterway? It suppose to be somewhere near Town Center.

[PureAuteur]

Sorry that my quote button doesn't work. Anyways, Bachanon, to get back on topic, what is your opinion of the mall and whether it should be torn down in the future maybe 10 years from now.

To recap the discussion, KatieDidIt brought up an interesting point, which is that the mall parking lot has already undergone redevelopment to build the beginning (or end?) of the Woodlands Waterway as it connects to the Mall. If they continue with this mindset, there might eventually be pressure to tear down the mall. I'd love to see grid streets and more tall buildings. One thing I always liked about San Marcos was how it mixed a grid system in the town center with curved roads surrounding the grid streets on the north end of town.

To sum up my position:

I'd like to see the mall redeveloped or torn down in order to give the Woodlands

1) less regional, more local feel

2) more consistent ambiance to go with Waterway and places like Flemings

3) more of an urban look

4) more pedestrian traffic (if grid streets connect Market Street and everything else in Town Center)

5) #1-4 possibly leading to the development of a public transit system

6) and less poserism, riff-raff, annoying loiterers who stare at their cell phones in public, etc.

[bachanon]

my hope is that the mall will morph into and connect with market street and the waterway, creating and increasing the walkable outdoor areas. as for the mall being imploded, maybe in a few decades.

i don't know that you'll get a "local feel" to the woodlands town center. you may get a more international feel, however. the grid like street design/activity you are looking for is going to be happening around waterway square. six pines on the west/lake robbins on the north/marriott way (or drive) and the waterway in the middle, parallel to lake robbins and timberloch/timberloch on the south/woodloch forest on the east; this area is specifically high-density.

check out the site plan on the woodlands development listings pages for 24 waterway avenue. link

i think the posers will increase their area of activity once the pedestrian areas increase and the waterway becomes more central to overall activity.

Edited October 3, 2006 by bachanon

[pineda]

You know, Pure, I really think you might be happier if you moved to San Marcos, because I can foresee Fleming's biting the dust before the Woodlands Mall ever does.

Plus, I hear there no "posers", or "riff-raff" or "annoying loiterers who stare at their cell phones in public" anywhere in San Marcos.