Downtown Dallas

[houstonfella]

I stayed at the Fairmount because it was 1.5 blocks from my work there. Have I told you there is nothing to do within a 1 mile radius? You got it and I am being sweet about this. Nothing to do. Learn to catch a cab and hopefully you will get them to turn on the A/C. Houstonians and A/C go hand and hand. We don't have to ask. It is simply the way of life down here. Maybe that is why we are the "most air conditioned city in the world" is because we just are. Anyhow, be careful of Downtown Dallas because there is, trust me on this one, nuttin' to do down there. Give me S.A., Austin or Hou any day for a business trip. Thanks.

[editor]

I was last in downtown Dallas overnight about five years ago. Sad to hear that it's still the same -- nothing to do.

Fortunately, Fort Worth isn't all that far away, and it's a great place to spend some time.

[Spades]

No offense, but what exactly is your point? You aren't saying anything we haven't heard in the past few years. Everybody knew this but most people also realize that it is improving.

[editor]

No offense, but what exactly is your point? You aren't saying anything we haven't heard in the past few years. Everybody knew this but most people also realize that it is improving.

Glad to hear it's improving. For those of us who don't get to Dallas very often, what kind of improvements have been made?

[C2H]

not attempted as a jab at Dallas, but i was there in June and there was a great deal of construction going on outside downtown, but downtown Dallas is still dead as a doornail. And that's weird considering how famous Dallas is. It needs some more shops and connectivity. Everything that's considered "booming" is occuring in the Uptown area or north of Dallas (Lemmon AVE). I also visited Deep Ellum which is nothing but a bunch of shabby karaoke bars with a few meteocre nightclubs. Nothing that i expected to see from the 9th largest city in America

[dalparadise]

not attempted as a jab at Dallas, but i was there in June and there was a great deal of construction going on outside downtown, but downtown Dallas is still dead as a doornail. And that's weird considering how famous Dallas is. It needs some more shops and connectivity. Everything that's considered "booming" is occuring in the Uptown area or north of Dallas (Lemmon AVE). I also visited Deep Ellum which is nothing but a bunch of shabby karaoke bars with a few meteocre nightclubs. Nothing that i expected to see from the 9th largest city in America

Yeah, Deep Ellum hit its heights in the late nineties. It used to be really great -- probably on par with what Midtown Houston should one day hope to be. Uptown Dallas was then and is now lively and interesting. It's drawing a lot from other parts of the city.

We need to look at our own Downtown in Houston. It is slowly rotting and is dead 5 nights per week. What's worse than about ten years ago, when no one was Downtown, is that now there are a bunch of thugs roaming the streets. Off Main, and even a block or so fom Main St. Square, on Main, there are a lot of dark areas and some shady characters hanging around, aggressively panhandling, or worse. I'd imagine it's getting harder and harder to sell those $400,000 lofts down there.

We need to get Downtown back on track. It has wandered off and is in real danger of not finding its way back.

[Houstonian in Iraq]

We need to look at our own Downtown in Houston. It is slowly rotting and is dead 5 nights per week. What's worse than about ten years ago, when no one was Downtown, is that now there are a bunch of thugs roaming the streets. Off Main, and even a block or so fom Main St. Square, on Main, there are a lot of dark areas and some shady characters hanging around, aggressively panhandling, or worse. I'd imagine it's getting harder and harder to sell those $400,000 lofts down there.

We need to get Downtown back on track. It has wandered off and is in real danger of not finding its way back.

I don't know about all that. Compared to 10 years ago it's loads safer and cleaner and has slowly been progressing. I have been there off and on since Nov. (when in town)Some weeknights are happening some aren't. Weekends are usually buzzing. Weekdays are usually busy with workers and visitors.

I see downtown on the right track, with the new park, Finger's building, and Houston Pavilions on there way

[Willy1]

The statement about there not being in construction in DT Dallas is simply incorrect, although it's almost all conversion projects rather than new construction. Almost every vacant building in DT Dallas is being converted to residential... There was an article in the paper this week that stated that in the next 12 months the DT Dallas population will add 4400 new residential units opening. So, things are starting to change in DT Dallas... it's just going to take a while to get it all built and open. Also, some clubs and nightlife are open in DT Dallas, but the Fairmont is sort of on the outskirts on DT so, you wouldn't be within walking distance anyway more than likely. But, as of now, DT Dallas does remain primarily a business center, not a residential or entertainment district.

Deep Ellum was enjoying a nice turn-around period in the earlier part of this decade, but the success of Deep Ellum drew the attention of many unappealing, criminal elements from the south of Deep Ellum... When the crime spiked and it became dangerous to go to Deep Ellum, the people who were previously spending money and supporting the local bars and restaurants, quit going to Deep Ellum. Almost over night, the crowds in DE shifted from money-spending, trendy Dallasites, to criminal elements who were just hanging out in the streets, not spending money, and causing problems for those who were there to have a good time. The DPD tried to step in and get a hold on the crime before it got out of control, but it was too late. The money-spenders were already off to another part of the city to spend their money and support businesses in safer areas - like Uptown. Do as Uptown booms, Deep Ellum continues to wither. Retailers and restaurants in DE have left in droves in the last 2 years. Dallas is going to have to get the crime in the area under control or DE will be a ghost town soon. The Green Room, one of the last big hot spots in DE announced this week that it's closing. The owner had to shut the doors because the lack of business has driven him out of business. I used to love Deep Ellum, but it's really on the decline and the one and only reason is because the criminals who hangout in the streets have made it unsafe for the legitimate club/restaurant/retail patrons to go down there. Deep Ellum is in a pickle when it comes to geography too... DE sits just East of DT Dallas and is sort of a buffer zone between extremely wealthy North Dallas, and extremely poor South Dallas. I have a good friend who lived in a really cool loft Deep Ellum for 3 years. He decied to move the night he was walking his dog and was almost the victim of a drive by while walking his dog on a Tuesday night...

Deep Ellum will not turn around until the City of Dallas gets a hold of the crime problems and puts some sort of restrictions in place to keep criminal elements at bay... Question is... how do you do that in such a large area.

[dalparadise]

Deep Ellum was enjoying a nice turn-around period in the earlier part of this decade, but the success of Deep Ellum drew the attention of many unappealing, criminal elements from the south of Deep Ellum... When the crime spiked and it became dangerous to go to Deep Ellum, the people who were previously spending money and supporting the local bars and restaurants, quit going to Deep Ellum. Almost over night, the crowds in DE shifted from money-spending, trendy Dallasites, to criminal elements who were just hanging out in the streets, not spending money, and causing problems for those who were there to have a good time.

Deep Ellum will not turn around until the City of Dallas gets a hold of the crime problems and puts some sort of restrictions in place to keep criminal elements at bay... Question is... how do you do that in such a large area.

This is what I'm talking about. Substitute "Downtown Houston" for "Deep Ellum" and you have a snapshot of where Downtown Houston may be heading. It is NOT too late for us (as it seems to be for Deep Ellum) but we are approaching the point of no return.

If I had money tied up in Houston Pavillions, I'd be really nervous about the neighborhood I was moving into...and why no one else seems to want to move into it.

Seriously -- at 11:30 on a Thursday night there was NOTHING going on. Nothing good, anyway. Main was full of homeless. Fannin was full of thugs. Both were eyeing the 10-12 people who seemed to be walking around looking for something to do. The one restaurant open was empty. Clubs like Venue, Suede, Jones Bar, Mantra, Mercury Room, Hub, etc. were dark and their "open" hours were peeling off their front doors. Whiskey Bar and Bank Jean George, ground Zero for Downtown's "beautiful people" renaissance are toast. The Magnolia was eerily quiet.

Flying Saucer had some white people in it. M Bar had some black people in it. Neither end of Main seemed interested in mixing with the other. In between, junkies begged for money.

Walking up toward Main St. Square, (a mission I abandoned because of a group of guys hanging out on the corner a block up who looked like they were looking for trouble) I saw a sign that said "The New Main Street" on a boarded up building. The sign was faded. I decided to walk back to my car via Fannin and was wishing I was back on Main all the way back down to Texas Ave. Too many people wanting to "ask me a question" or walking along with me asking for money, even when I didn't make eye contact.

I've been out on the streets alone after midnight in Paris, London, NY, San Francisco, LA, Chicago, Amsterdam, Philly, New Orleans and some other places. with the exception of NO, all felt safer than Houston on this night. It's sad to say that Houston felt a little like walking up Canal St. away from the French Quarter. Your "city sense" kicks in and you become very aware of your surroundings. It's not the kind of thing that attracts tourists to boutique hotels or multi-million dollar entertainment complexes.

When is the ground-breaking for Houston Pavilions again?

[slfunk]

not attempted as a jab at Dallas, but i was there in June and there was a great deal of construction going on outside downtown, but downtown Dallas is still dead as a doornail. And that's weird considering how famous Dallas is. It needs some more shops and connectivity. Everything that's considered "booming" is occuring in the Uptown area or north of Dallas (Lemmon AVE). I also visited Deep Ellum which is nothing but a bunch of shabby karaoke bars with a few meteocre nightclubs. Nothing that i expected to see from the 9th largest city in America

There is quite a bit of construction in downtown Dallas.

-A new plaza connecting the courts to West End with an underground parking garage (park on top with fountains etc.) It was where the cabin was.

-Joule Urban Resort which should open next year with retail on the ground floor

-Thrid Rail Lofts which takes in the redo of two buildings and construction of a new tower which will have 500 space parking garage and 30,000 sq ft of retail. This project will lease its first apartments starting in October and tower will be open by summer of 2007

-1200 Main a redo of an office building into condos with 10,000 sq ft of retail. supposively first condos will be ready for move-in around x-mas time.

- Merc complex which has yet to reveal all its details (currently under demo and will have some 20,000 plus sq ft of retail and new residential tower) wont be completed till 2008

- DP&L building will have a new retail tenant by X-mas (Jos A. Bank)....

- Mosaic (the redo of the Fidelity Union Bank complex into condos and retail on the ground) will be opening with rumored second grocery store/market and restaurant....begins leasing around x-mas for apartments

- Republic Center will be opening which is another office tower conversion into loft apartments

- One Arts Plaza which is a new tower that will be open this time next year (will have office, lofts, and retail)

I have felt a long wait after all the announcements of projects going on downtown to open. Nothing has changed drastically in the past 2 yrs just a little by little. But you can't expect things to open a few months after they announce the projects...the thing has to get built. There have been a couple more clubs open downtown like the Obar which stays packed on Main street and some shops including KUL, Swirl, some Italian clothing store in the Kirby, the Incubator, Crimson in the DP&L on Commerce and a sports wear store on Elm. In general you are right with all the announcements things still seem to be on snooze in downtown. But come this time next year several of these projects including Victory will all be open and it will be a different story. But there is a lot in the construction phase, and most of that is converstion of empty building so you wont see the cranes but construction elevators on the side of buildings. BTW someone mentioned the Fairmount hotel. It is a little off the beaten path from all this activity. It is closer to what is happening in the Arts District and walking distance from Uptown (I walk it almost everyday to work). There will be a second wave of parks to erase some of surface parking after the West End Plaza/parking garage gets finished all pending on our bond election this fall. So the connectivity issue is being addressed. The bond package is going to be the largest ever put before the taxpayers and expected to pass easily. There are a lot changes addressed in the bond for downtown, deep ellum, Fair Park, Cotton Bowl, parks and recs, streets, etc. that will result in a lot of cleaning up for the city as a whole. On top of that the green line for Dart which will connect deep ellum, Fair Park and downtown is now under way...just started a few weeks ago.

[rantanamo]

to say there's nothing to do in downtown Dallas is a little ridiculous. Exactly what did you want to do? And could you not simply hop on the train to do more outside of downtown if it was boring?

[musicman]

This is what I'm talking about. Substitute "Downtown Houston" for "Deep Ellum" and you have a snapshot of where Downtown Houston may be heading. It is NOT too late for us (as it seems to be for Deep Ellum) but we are approaching the point of no return.

If I had money tied up in Houston Pavillions, I'd be really nervous about the neighborhood I was moving into...and why no one else seems to want to move into it.

Seriously -- at 11:30 on a Thursday night there was NOTHING going on. Nothing good, anyway. Main was full of homeless. Fannin was full of thugs. Both were eyeing the 10-12 people who seemed to be walking around looking for something to do. The one restaurant open was empty. Clubs like Venue, Suede, Jones Bar, Mantra, Mercury Room, Hub, etc. were dark and their "open" hours were peeling off their front doors. Whiskey Bar and Bank Jean George, ground Zero for Downtown's "beautiful people" renaissance are toast. The Magnolia was eerily quiet.

Flying Saucer had some white people in it. M Bar had some black people in it. Neither end of Main seemed interested in mixing with the other. In between, junkies begged for money.

Walking up toward Main St. Square, (a mission I abandoned because of a group of guys hanging out on the corner a block up who looked like they were looking for trouble) I saw a sign that said "The New Main Street" on a boarded up building. The sign was faded. I decided to walk back to my car via Fannin and was wishing I was back on Main all the way back down to Texas Ave. Too many people wanting to "ask me a question" or walking along with me asking for money, even when I didn't make eye contact.

I've been out on the streets alone after midnight in Paris, London, NY, San Francisco, LA, Chicago, Amsterdam, Philly, New Orleans and some other places. with the exception of NO, all felt safer than Houston on this night. It's sad to say that Houston felt a little like walking up Canal St. away from the French Quarter. Your "city sense" kicks in and you become very aware of your surroundings. It's not the kind of thing that attracts tourists to boutique hotels or multi-million dollar entertainment complexes.

When is the ground-breaking for Houston Pavilions again?

Point well taken. Several people here cite the number of new clubs as an indication that Downtown is revitalizing. I have to add that anyone who considers a "club" a long term business is mistaken especially in a market like Downtown where costs are higher. Their popularity always fades. I know Mercury Room has lost its lustre with most customers. I would rather see a good restaurant than a club anyday. Mia Bella has been a great addition and is still attracting customers because the food is good and prices are reasonable. Like any business, there has to be a reason to go there otherwise it is doomed to failure long term.

[troyboy]

I'm so glad I'm not from this area, so I have the pleasure of not getting caught up in the tired ole Houston v Dallas crap. There's a lot I like about both cities. I wasn't even aware of a rivalry until I found this forum. Anyway to say there's nothing going on in downtown Dallas is crazy. I work in Fountain Place, next door to the Fairmount. Friday after work, I joined four coworkers for happy hour at Campizi's. We didn't leave downtown till 3 A.M. We barhopped and clubbed for hours, so I don't know what Mr. Fella is talking about.

The last time I was in Houston, I had a room at the Doubletree downtown. On a Thursday night, my brother and I decided to walk to where the "action was" on Main St. Let me tell you, that was one long scary walk. And there wasn't that much action. It was much better on Friday night, but this time we took a cab.

[troyboy]

Fortunately, Fort Worth isn't all that far away, and it's a great place to spend some time.

Since I've been in Dallas, I've heard about FW's downtown. I've been down there a few times at night, and it is very clean and safe, and plenty of people. But DTFW is also very SMALL (I couldn't believe how small downtown is) and I found the offerings (bars, restuarants, clubs) very bland...lot of chain bars and restuarants. Nothing funky, cool, or edgy. The one danceclub is one of those where there's several clubs under one roof. It's the cheeziest place I had been in...ever. I don't know why some people in Dallas call it funkytown when the city is funkless. Instead of feeling like in an urban city, I felt like I was in a section of Disneyland.

[RedScare]

Seriously -- at 11:30 on a Thursday night there was NOTHING going on. Nothing good, anyway. Main was full of homeless. Fannin was full of thugs. Both were eyeing the 10-12 people who seemed to be walking around looking for something to do. The one restaurant open was empty. Clubs like Venue, Suede, Jones Bar, Mantra, Mercury Room, Hub, etc. were dark and their "open" hours were peeling off their front doors. Whiskey Bar and Bank Jean George, ground Zero for Downtown's "beautiful people" renaissance are toast. The Magnolia was eerily quiet.

Flying Saucer had some white people in it. M Bar had some black people in it. Neither end of Main seemed interested in mixing with the other. In between, junkies begged for money.

Walking up toward Main St. Square, (a mission I abandoned because of a group of guys hanging out on the corner a block up who looked like they were looking for trouble) I saw a sign that said "The New Main Street" on a boarded up building. The sign was faded. I decided to walk back to my car via Fannin and was wishing I was back on Main all the way back down to Texas Ave. Too many people wanting to "ask me a question" or walking along with me asking for money, even when I didn't make eye contact.

If you had started your post with, "It was a dark and stormy night.", I would have enjoyed the drama better.

Musicman is correct about the "club scene". These things are cyclical, and the downtown club owners are trying to milk the last dollars from their investment before changing formats. Restaurants, bars and shops are far better long-term investments in an area, similar to Rice Village's mix.

Troyboy's two posts are a bit conflicting. In one, he complains of a long walk in Houston, in the next, Fort Worth is too small. I suppose it is a good thing he lives in Dallas, since it is just the right size, according to his post. And that may be the point. All of these posts about lively or dead, too big or too small, "dangerous" or "safe", all reflect the tastes of the poster. Every opinion may be valid, but none of them necessarily suggest success or failure of the area. If downtown (fill in city here) fills up with fancy restaurants, DJ V Lawrence may think it is lame. If it fills with vibrant hip-hop clubs, I would never go there (though, I would not call it a failure). It is all a matter of taste and preference.

I find each of these takes on the various downtowns interesting, but as to the conclusion drawn by each poster, I find it speaks more to that person's personal preference than to the success or failure of the particular downtown.

[tamtagon]

I don't know why some people in Dallas call it funkytown when the city is funkless.

Downtown is what it is, and it's great, but if you're looking for The Funk in downtown Fort Worth, you're looking in the wrong neighborhood.

Fort Party Worth is my favorite nickname.

[tamtagon]

I work in Fountain Place, next door to the Fairmount. Friday after work, I joined four coworkers for happy hour at Campizi's. We didn't leave downtown till 3 A.M. We barhopped and clubbed for hours, so I don't know what Mr. Fella is talking about.

The last time I was in Houston, I had a room at the Doubletree downtown. On a Thursday night, my brother and I decided to walk to where the "action was" on Main St. Let me tell you, that was one long scary walk. And there wasn't that much action. It was much better on Friday night, but this time we took a cab.

It's all relative to expectations and prior experiences. If you're familiar with an area, and have a fixed destination in mind, getting there is a non-issue - can even be fun. But if you're not too sure where the things you like can be found, then getting there can quickly become an unpleasant. The first night ever I went out for fun in New York City, I went right the Empire State Building. There was nothing to do, zilch. My mistake.

[troyboy]

If

Troyboy's two posts are a bit conflicting. In one, he complains of a long walk in Houston, in the next, Fort Worth is too small. I suppose it is a good thing he lives in Dallas, since it is just the right size, according to his post.

Let me clarify it for you: Our long walk had nothing to do with the pysical walk. I meant the walk was long, because of the harrasment by panhandlers and homeless, some mean looks by some young thuggy looking individuals loittering around, and the same car with blaring bass passed us at least three times as if they were following us. I should have just said scary walk. And regarding FW's small downtown, to clarify my comment. I found FW's downtown incredibly small for a city of 600,000 people. It takes no time at all to walk the entire downtown area, plus few tall buildings....that's all. How you came to the conclusion that I was saying Dallas is just right is way beyond me. I guess whatever it takes to keep a tired rivalry going.

[RedScare]

How you came to the conclusion that I was saying Dallas is just right is way beyond me.

Anyway to say there's nothing going on in downtown Dallas is crazy. I work in Fountain Place, next door to the Fairmount. Friday after work, I joined four coworkers for happy hour at Campizi's. We didn't leave downtown till 3 A.M. We barhopped and clubbed for hours, so I don't know what Mr. Fella is talking about.

But DTFW is also very SMALL (I couldn't believe how small downtown is) and I found the offerings (bars, restuarants, clubs) very bland...lot of chain bars and restuarants. Nothing funky, cool, or edgy. The one danceclub is one of those where there's several clubs under one roof. It's the cheeziest place I had been in...ever.

The last time I was in Houston, I had a room at the Doubletree downtown. On a Thursday night, my brother and I decided to walk to where the "action was" on Main St. Let me tell you, that was one long scary walk. And there wasn't that much action.

I don't know how I came to that conclusion, either. I must have just assumed it.

[troyboy]

^^^^^

What???? Still don't follow your logic. But your intelligence could just be far superior to mine or you could be much dumber than me...who's to say.

[Dallasboi]

Dallas Is just in a transitional phase......Sometimes it may seem busy sometimes it may seem dead.in about 1 year it will be an entirely different place, so all of the people who enjoy saying that downtown Dallas is dead had better get it all out now because soon that statement won't be valid.

[Gary]

I would just like to ask, what is happening to HAIF? These idiotic Houston/Dallas threads are taking over, and to think that I used to like them makes me ill. Of course this isn't the only topic that sucks but it's a good subject matter.

It seems that the forum is being overrun by kids who want to brag about there city versus learning from those here with a good education, and good insight into urban renewal. I miss the learning experience on HAIF that seems way to few and far between now.

[troyboy]

^^^^

I agree Gary. I was so happy to find this forum after my folks retired to SugarLand and I knew I would be visiting Houston from my new home...Dallas. I thought it would be a great way to see what Houston is about and what it has to offer. But it's become so full Houston V. Dallas comments that I rarely visit the forum now.

[bretley42]

Ahhh, that place is terrible. Downtown Fort Worth is more than Sundance Square though. Like all cities, it takes some exploring to find more of what you're looking for.

Here (I'm in Fort Worth for another week) it isn't as much about the dance club as it is the live music club. Much the same as Deep Ellum was in Dallas back when it was good (at least to me), although again, not on the same scale.

And yeah, it is smaller. You're talking about a city that barely sneaks into the top 20.

just a couple quick thoughts.

-b

Since I've been in Dallas, I've heard about FW's downtown. I've been down there a few times at night, and it is very clean and safe, and plenty of people. But DTFW is also very SMALL (I couldn't believe how small downtown is) and I found the offerings (bars, restuarants, clubs) very bland...lot of chain bars and restuarants. Nothing funky, cool, or edgy. The one danceclub is one of those where there's several clubs under one roof. It's the cheeziest place I had been in...ever. I don't know why some people in Dallas call it funkytown when the city is funkless. Instead of feeling like in an urban city, I felt like I was in a section of Disneyland.

[dalparadise]

If you had started your post with, "It was a dark and stormy night.", I would have enjoyed the drama better.

Musicman is correct about the "club scene". These things are cyclical, and the downtown club owners are trying to milk the last dollars from their investment before changing formats. Restaurants, bars and shops are far better long-term investments in an area, similar to Rice Village's mix.

Troyboy's two posts are a bit conflicting. In one, he complains of a long walk in Houston, in the next, Fort Worth is too small. I suppose it is a good thing he lives in Dallas, since it is just the right size, according to his post. And that may be the point. All of these posts about lively or dead, too big or too small, "dangerous" or "safe", all reflect the tastes of the poster. Every opinion may be valid, but none of them necessarily suggest success or failure of the area. If downtown (fill in city here) fills up with fancy restaurants, DJ V Lawrence may think it is lame. If it fills with vibrant hip-hop clubs, I would never go there (though, I would not call it a failure). It is all a matter of taste and preference.

I find each of these takes on the various downtowns interesting, but as to the conclusion drawn by each poster, I find it speaks more to that person's personal preference than to the success or failure of the particular downtown.

I understand what you're saying. My point was more to the idea that Downtown Houston isn't doing much these days to attract more residents, not necessarily that there wasn't any action that appealed to my personal tastes. Truth told, there really wasn't anything at all going on. What's worse is that the club nonsense seems to have brought in an undesirable element that has lingered after the club kids have mostly left. That doesn't bode well for attracting buyers of $300+ lofts.

I was hoping to generate some discussion as to what we might do to turn it around.

[RedScare]

I was hoping to generate some discussion as to what we might do to turn it around.

The simple and not very satisfying answer is to wait. The current club scene is aimed at a fairly specific demographic. As such, Downtown has been typecast. New construction (HP, the park, Finger apartments) will draw a much broader demographic, making Downtown appeal to a wider audience.

Another reason, I say wait, is that virtually all of the well known clubs are getting long in the tooth. Mercury has been around for about 8 years, ancient for a niteclub. The others have been around 5 to 6 years. Plus, those clubs started the trend. Like Deep Ellum, it was fun when it was new and edgy. Then, it matured and slowed down. The original club goers no longer thought it was hip, as the BMWs descended on it. Downtown is maturing, making the clubs more tame. The next generation will naturally not be as edgy, as the clubs move to a new scene, perhaps old Chinatown. Again, this is not necessarily bad, merely different.

This relates to Downtown Dallas, as well. As Dallas DT struggles to emerge from a several decade slump, it faces the same issues Houston DT did in 1998. Several ventures will try and fail before the proper mix is attained. It will takes years, just as Houston DT is taking years to reverse decades of neglect, and attain the right mix.

The point is that government cannot make the right mix. The people dictate what works. Investors open what they think will work, and the public votes with their feet. In a year or so, Houston DT will see an upswing, as people try out the new offerings. Whether they stay depends on what is on the menu. The same thing applies to Dallas, though recent reports of violence suggests that the City still needs to do some housecleaning.

[The Great Hizzy!]

If I've heard any complaint from local Dallas residents about DT, it's that a.) don't feel as safe as they should, and b.) it's a bit dark on the street level at night. I suspect b is tied to a, and I can't say if the perceptions I'm hearing about regarding all this is more than just that--perception rather than reality--but in order to take that next step, you have to make sure that you help the public form a favorable perception of the area in question.

But anyway, I understand what Dal is saying (and the slowdown over the last eighteen months has been notable) but I agree with Red that developing a more profound residential base (because DT really needs to become a neighborhood before it can become a place that holds a certain 24/7/365 prestige) would go a long way in tying in some of the loose ends.

We're not far away. We just need to see that next "burst". The hard part, the restoration of numerous empty buildings has begun. Street and sidewalk improvements as well as better lighting has finally been completed. DT now has an actually "spine" so to speak with the redevelopment of Main Street.

Now it's time to bring the people home.

[Gary]

The simple and not very satisfying answer is to wait. The current club scene is aimed at a fairly specific demographic. As such, Downtown has been typecast. New construction (HP, the park, Finger apartments) will draw a much broader demographic, making Downtown appeal to a wider audience.

Another reason, I say wait, is that virtually all of the well known clubs are getting long in the tooth. Mercury has been around for about 8 years, ancient for a niteclub. The others have been around 5 to 6 years. Plus, those clubs started the trend. Like Deep Ellum, it was fun when it was new and edgy. Then, it matured and slowed down. The original club goers no longer thought it was hip, as the BMWs descended on it. Downtown is maturing, making the clubs more tame. The next generation will naturally not be as edgy, as the clubs move to a new scene, perhaps old Chinatown. Again, this is not necessarily bad, merely different.

This relates to Downtown Dallas, as well. As Dallas DT struggles to emerge from a several decade slump, it faces the same issues Houston DT did in 1998. Several ventures will try and fail before the proper mix is attained. It will takes years, just as Houston DT is taking years to reverse decades of neglect, and attain the right mix.

The point is that government cannot make the right mix. The people dictate what works. Investors open what they think will work, and the public votes with their feet. In a year or so, Houston DT will see an upswing, as people try out the new offerings. Whether they stay depends on what is on the menu. The same thing applies to Dallas, though recent reports of violence suggests that the City still needs to do some housecleaning.

Now this is more like it. Good post Red.

[musicman]

If I've heard any complaint from local Dallas residents about DT, it's that a.) don't feel as safe as they should, and b.) it's a bit dark on the street level at night.

LOL, are you saying that they need some street lights??

[troyboy]

Part of the problem for DT Dallas and probably Houston is drawing the population from other entertainment venues in the city to downtown. Someone stated this really well on the Dallas forum. Dallas has Uptown, Oaklawn, Knox-Henderson/SMU, Mockingbird Station, Lower Greenville, Deep Ellum, and new areas like Cedars and Bishop Arts District and now Victory. Downtown is in competition with all of these areas for patrons and residents. This is why the residential component is so important to DT Dallas and Houston. Our downtowns simply won't make it without a large residential base. As opposed to FW, a city with few options besides downtown for urban nightlife and entertainment. Drawing patrons from other parts of the city is not as much as a problem there...where else you gonna go, Hulen...or the Stockyards??? If Dallas continues to add residences at the pace it is doing now, you're going to see downtown turn around very quickly.