Upcoming HAIF down time

[editor]

So, we're moving to a bigger.. better.. dedicated server.

For those of you who have been following this drama, this is our third server in about six or seven months because of the outstanding growth of this forum.

I'm hoping this move will hold us for a year or so.

To make the move, HAIF will be periodically unavailable on Wednesday, September 13th.

For those of you who are curious about the new server, it has the following specifcations:

Intel Celeron processor at 1.7 GHz

60 GB hard drive.

512 MB of RAM.

FreeBSD operating system.

Connected to: AT&T by OC-12, Sprint by OC-12, Global Crossing by gigabit (1000) Ethernet, Level(3) by gigabit (1000) Ethernet, SAVVIS by gigabit (1000) Ethernet, TeliaSonera by OC-3, and PitX by fast (100) Ethernet.

[TheNiche]

Intel Celeron processor at 1.7 GHz

Celeron? Are you sure you want to go without an L1 cache?

[editor]

Celeron? Are you sure you want to go without an L1 cache?

Tell me how that affects performance in a server environment.

[Scharpe St Guy]

512mb Ram??????? Is this a typo? Ram is very cheap these days and running it with less then 2gig should be questioned.

Thanks for the upgrade though!!!

Scharpe St Guy

I would be happy to send you a stick of Ram to boost it up past 1 gig.

Tell me how that affects performance in a server environment.

[editor]

512mb Ram??????? Is this a typo? Ram is very cheap these days and running it with less then 2gig should be questioned.

Thanks for the upgrade though!!!

Scharpe St Guy

I would be happy to send you a stick of Ram to boost it up past 1 gig.

Thanks for the offer, but it doesn't work that way. The standard server configuration from the hosting company is 256MB. I'm spending an extra $50 out of my own pocket to get it up to 512 MB. Since it's not a colocated server, I don't have physical access to it and have to go with their configurations.

In the research I've done over the last two weeks, I've NEVER seen a dedicated server with 2 gigs of RAM. We're serving web pages, not playing Halo 2. I think the largest I've seen is 1 GIG and that was a shared server. Then again, I'm not a computer expert.

That said, more robust servers are available, but this is the server we can afford. Until something changes with the financials of this site (ads start paying more, people start buying ad-free subscriptions) this is what we'll have to live with for now.

It's certainly better than what we're running on now -- essentially the same box, but shared with about six other web sites. I'm hoping this will hold us for a year or so.

Interestingly, I just looked at the statistics (something I should probably do more often, but don't) and we have doubled our traffic in the last six months. I wish I knew how to predict how long the server will be able to keep up with the load.

[TheNiche]

Tell me how that affects performance in a server environment.

I can't speak very well to the "server environment", since I've never run one. But I have used computers with and without L1 caches and there was a noticable difference in performance.

L1 is like RAM in a sense, except that it is mounted on the CPU, so it can be accessed much faster. Intuitively, I'd think that a lot of people are going to be viewing the same kind of material, over and over again, and that L1 or extra RAM might provide some benefit. Extra RAM could become particularly beneficial if you decide to allow users to host their own pictures on the HAIF server.

[Pumapayam]

For those of you who are curious about the new server, it has the following specifcations:

Intel Celeron processor at 1.7 GHz

60 GB hard drive.

512 MB of RAM.

It sounds like one of those cheap $299 Dell specials. 1.7 GHz, really, that sounds very 2001 ish and not 2006.

[ricco67]

It sounds like one of those cheap $299 Dell specials. 1.7 GHz, really, that sounds very 2001 ish and not 2006.

guys, its a SERVER not a pc!

all it is doing is resolving requests and sending out the data. its not required to perform anything mathematicaly complicated!

from what i can see, he made a good purchase.

[Pumapayam]

guys, its a SERVER not a pc!

Maybe I don't know the difference, but I though a server was a stripped down PC geared to transferring and storing data.

[editor]

I'm not an expert on servers, but from what I understand, the are significant differences between a regular home computer and a server.

Home computers tend to have good graphics cards. Servers are rarely, if ever, even connected to a monitor or keyboard so they only have the most basic video card necessary to do diagnostics.

Home computers are good at math. Servers rarely, if ever, do any math, so their processors tend to be slower. This also helps conserve energy and create less heat in a very cramped environment.

Servers tend to have lots of storage. Some of them have 1 terrabyte of storage inside of them. The average home computer is closer to 250 GB. The server we're getting is only 60 GB, which is more than enough considering that HAIF is only 300 MB.

Home computers tend to have lots of memory. This is because home computers tend to move around large files like pictures, video, and music. Servers move around more files, but much smaller ones -- Around 100k or less. You could fit 30 HAIF pages in the space of one MP3 file.

Home computers tend to have slow hard drives. Server tend to have faster hard drives. This is to facilitate the movement of hundreds of small files in and out to the net.

Servers have redundant hard drives. This is rare in home computers.

Servers have multiple power supplies. No home computer does. This is so that the web site stays up when one of the power supplies fail.

Servers are built with parts that are more industrial-strength than your average home computer. Instead of using a $1.50 Dell network card from a home computer, a server will use a $15 network card from Cisco.

Servers are built to be far, far more reliable than the average home computer. That's why they cost so much more.

In a nutshell, comparing a server to a beige box you can buy at Fry's is like comparing a Hummer to a Honda Civic. Yes, the Civic can go faster, but the Hummer will get you there more reliably.

It sounds like one of those cheap $299 Dell specials. 1.7 GHz, really, that sounds very 2001 ish and not 2006.

The cheapest server Dell makes is $949 (PowerEdge 850 - currently on sale for $849). Do not make the mistake of comparing servers to home computers. They're not the same thing.

I just checked, and a Dell server equipped with the same hardware, software, and support as the server we're getting is $3,602. That's because a lot of things aren't included in the basic Dell price -- things like screws and rails for installing it into the rack are an extra $129. Backup software, etc...

Also, I was incorrect about the price earlier when I stated that a good network card is $15. Dell network cards run $130-$269. I imagine cards from a good manufacturer are more.

[Pumapayam]

If reliability is an issue with home PC's than why would anyone entrust documents on them.

That is crazy, so how much are you spending on a server?

I have had my PC since Aug '03 and it have never failed me yet.

[editor]

If reliability is an issue with home PC's than why would anyone entrust documents on them.

That is crazy, so how much are you spending on a server?

I have had my PC since Aug '03 and it have never failed me yet.

You're not supposed to trust documents to your home computer. You're supposed to back them up on tapes or discs or offline storage.

Here's a clipping from Wikipedia for those who don't know what a server is, or think it's similar to a home computer:

--

For example, servers may incorporate

[Pumapayam]

You're not supposed to trust documents to your home computer. You're supposed to back them up on tapes or discs or offline storage.

I am sure that after you saying that my home PC is now jinxed!

The information on hard drives is recoverable, to a point I know. But usually you can see symptoms before your PC goes to hell, like if it start operating slower or something.

[editor]

I am sure that after you saying that my home PC is now jinxed!

The information on hard drives is recoverable, to a point I know. But usually you can see symptoms before your PC goes to hell, like if it start operating slower or something.

Exactly. But you can't see a server, because it's located hundreds, or thousands of miles away. That's why servers have secondary embedded devices attached to them that allow you to cut the power and reset them by remote control from anywhere in the world. Home computers can't do that.

Someone's home computer may be great for typing documents and playing games, but it's simply not desinged to handle the same load as a server. Right now, HAIF is shutting down when more than 500 people request a web page within a few seconds. No home computer can come even close to that load, especially 24/7/365.

[Pumapayam]

Right now, HAIF is shutting down when more than 500 people request a web page within a few seconds.

So when Trae's Atlanta Site picks up steam, will he have to eventually do the same thing you are doing?

[editor]

So when Trae's Atlanta Site picks up steam, will he have to eventually do the same thing you are doing?

Every web site goes through the same thing. It's just growing pains.

We started out on a very small server shared with about 30 other web sites. Then we moved to a larger server with just 12 other sites. Then to an even larger server with five neighbors. Now we need one of our own. Eventually we'll need two, or three... then things like RAID storage, and load balancing, and lots of other things I don't want to think about. We are victims of our own success.

That first server cost us something like $25/month. Each upgrade gets more expensive. Off the top of my head, I'd say I spend about $200 a month more on HAIF than HAIF brings in, which is why I'm so price-sensitive about all of this. If HAIF was making money, then I'd splurge on an XServe. But the cash just isn't there.

[Pumapayam]

Each upgrade gets more expensive. isn't there.

I'd be curious to see if you could post the chronology of this site.

It be interesting to see stats of this site from yester-year.

[TheNiche]

Each upgrade gets more expensive. Off the top of my head, I'd say I spend about $200 a month more on HAIF than HAIF brings in, which is why I'm so price-sensitive about all of this.

So why is it that HAIF is less lucrative than your more profitable sites? What's the difference?

[editor]

So why is it that HAIF is less lucrative than your more profitable sites? What's the difference?

The ad companies are getting very good about figuring out where people are surfing from, especially as more and more people get broadband. For example, when I surf HAIF from Chicago, I get Chicago ads. When I surf HAIF from China, I get no ads.

Houston isn't a high priority for the major ad buyers. It's a shame, especially to the people on this forum who are Houston's biggest backers, but it is true. I get fewer ads on the Houston site, and the ads I do get pay less. Ads on HAIF pay about 1/3rd what the Chicago site's ads pay, even though there are far fewer people visiting the Chicago site. Not surprisingly, New York ads pay the most. But visitors to that site are few and far between because I've neglected it so badly.

Interestingly, in the Spring I did get some ads targeted to Houston and the Houston site. They paid very well. They were for Six Flags. Then it was announced that Astroworld was closing and the ads stopped. That was the one month that HAIF broke even.

Even though the ad companies don't see much promise in a Houston forum, you do. And I do. That's why I spend so much of my personal money keeping HAIF running.

[ricco67]

Well, I guess you better get off your ass and start working on the New York site.

Believe it or not, I'm hustling to get you a couple of sponsors. (Thanks for the link!)

I'm glad that the server debate is finally over....or is it?

[editor]

We can only hope.

[Mark F. Barnes]

I am so touched by all this concern What I cannot figure if there really was all this concern, you'd get off you a$$ and buy a subscription. $100 a year, what's that, a tank of gas, one night out with drinks? Jesus H Christ, blah blah blag, why is this, why is that, Why the hell can't you get off you wallet and support your habit? I see some of this concern coming from people who have thousands of posts! Thousands! You must spent more time on here than you do anything else. (1528 posts in 10 months) Out of 2816 memebers one person bought a damn subscription. You want to know what the issue is, look in the mirror!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[editor]

It's also worth noting that the new server doesn't just buy us a new server. It buys us better connectivity, faster page loading (hopefully), someone who backs up the site every night, and someone who once a month takes one of the copies to a secure vault at another location. Plus redundant air conditioning, redundant diesel generators for power backup, and a staff I can contact 24 hours a day to get us back up and running in case the server eats itself.

Although the primary goal is to have HAIF available to more people, it also significantly increases the reliability of the site.

Out of 2816 memebers one person bought a damn subscription.

We have received inquireies from two other people, however, neither has actually come through with the money yet. We'll see. One person wanted to mail it in, so there's still time.

[jm1fd]

Tell me how that affects performance in a server environment.

Bar none the processor will run more efficently. When the processor can get things from L1 or L2 cache instead of main memory (RAM) or god forbid, the disk drive, it can continue making computations every clock cycle instead of burning up clock cycles waiting for data to come out of storage.

In the research I've done over the last two weeks, I've NEVER seen a dedicated server with 2 gigs of RAM. We're serving web pages, not playing Halo 2. I think the largest I've seen is 1 GIG and that was a shared server. Then again, I'm not a computer expert.

If the machine we're discussing is just serving up pages and graphics, then the configuration mentioned is fine. If it is also running the database instance(s) that support the site, then the more memory the better....the database servers where I used to work had 12GB of RAM each, and if the machines were more modern, they probably would have had upwards of 32GB each. Databases LOOOOOOOOVE to cache everything in memory, it makes the read only queries execute REALLY fast. Read/Write queries will still be at the mercy of the disk drives however. Of course given the particular application (this forum) the database probably sees read only queries most of the time.

[editor]

Bar none the processor will run more efficently. When the processor can get things from L1 or L2 cache instead of main memory (RAM) or god forbid, the disk drive, it can continue making computations every clock cycle instead of burning up clock cycles waiting for data to come out of storage.

If the machine we're discussing is just serving up pages and graphics, then the configuration mentioned is fine. If it is also running the database instance(s) that support the site, then the more memory the better....the database servers where I used to work had 12GB of RAM each, and if the machines were more modern, they probably would have had upwards of 32GB each. Databases LOOOOOOOOVE to cache everything in memory, it makes the read only queries execute REALLY fast. Read/Write queries will still be at the mercy of the disk drives however. Of course given the particular application (this forum) the database probably sees read only queries most of the time.

Sounds like you were working with application databases, like credit card processing and stuff. A friend of mine does that. I'm not sure I could.

Considering the entire HAIF database is only 173MB, 512MB seems reasonable. I can run the OS and still have two copies of the entire database in there. If we had 32GB of ram, we could store the entire database in RAM 170 times. Sounds like overkill.

I hope that some day we need to add more RAM, but I'm not sure we're there yet.

[ricco67]

Bar none the processor will run more efficently. When the processor can get things from L1 or L2 cache instead of main memory (RAM) or god forbid, the disk drive, it can continue making computations every clock cycle instead of burning up clock cycles waiting for data to come out of storage.

If the machine we're discussing is just serving up pages and graphics, then the configuration mentioned is fine. If it is also running the database instance(s) that support the site, then the more memory the better....the database servers where I used to work had 12GB of RAM each, and if the machines were more modern, they probably would have had upwards of 32GB each. Databases LOOOOOOOOVE to cache everything in memory, it makes the read only queries execute REALLY fast. Read/Write queries will still be at the mercy of the disk drives however. Of course given the particular application (this forum) the database probably sees read only queries most of the time.

DUDE!

once again, computation isn't really a factor for this website. the only database this deals with is the forums and even THAT is fairly minimal because some of what it does is sorted by time/date. If someone does a more detailed query then THAT would eat a bit at the clock, but even then it is but a blip as far as resources go.

again, the server that Editor got (you should be renamed, by the way) should do just fine for the traffic he's recieving. Buying TOO much server right now doesn't make sense.

[jm1fd]

DUDE!

once again, computation isn't really a factor for this website.

Really? A computer that doesn't do computation! Miracle of miracles!

Considering the entire HAIF database is only 173MB, 512MB seems reasonable. I can run the OS and still have two copies of the entire database in there. If we had 32GB of ram, we could store the entire database in RAM 170 times. Sounds like overkill.

Right but I'm sure whatever processes handle reqests and serve up pages would like to keep some things cached in memory such as commonly requested graphics and such. Does that 173MB include indexes or just the data?

[editor]

Right but I'm sure whatever processes handle reqests and serve up pages would like to keep some things cached in memory such as commonly requested graphics and such. Does that 173MB include indexes or just the data?

Indicies, data, and page rendering cache.

[HoustonMidtown]

Who is this waynelor_6 guy....he's always got too many active connections !!!

SQL error: User waynelor_6 has already more than 'max_user_connections' active connections

[Pumapayam]

Who is this waynelor_6 guy....he's always got too many active connections !!!

SQL error: User waynelor_6 has already more than 'max_user_connections' active connections

This is old news, and this post does not belong here.

Editor I suggest we close this thread or at minimum, move it to the Houston Architecture.info forum.

Some people just post just because they can, and that is not always a good thing. Even with the use of your smiley.

Please learn how to participate properly next time u080570.