METRORail North Line

[RedScare]

We used to have an express bus. No one ever rode it. Great ideas that no one ever uses are not great ideas.

[Houston19514]

I guess there are tradeoffs. With a plane/train/express bus trip, there would be no expense of renting a car or taking a taxi, no delays at the airport to rent and return a rental car, no parking expenses, and no time ever wasted looking for a parking space or waiting for a taxi.

 

Yes, there are indeed tradeoffs.  That was sort of my point; and that's something that many mass transit boosters tend to ignore.

[Slick Vik]

I rode the express bus a few times. Never saw more than 4 people on it. The problem was super shuttle sued metro and metro wasn't allowed to advertise. Or so I was told by a metro employee.

[innerloop]

We used to have an express bus. No one ever rode it. Great ideas that no one ever uses are not great ideas.

 

Unfortunately very few ever did.  I tried it a couple of times when I didn't have much luggage, but I think I was the only actual traveler.  It seemed to me that the rest of the few riders were airport employees getting to/from work.

 

And luggage was not catered to.  My experience with airport transfer trains in other cities is that they are specifically configured to have luggage storage areas.  The busses that I rode on were regular busses.  And in the US, I think you'd need special luggage compartments close by where each traveler was sitting.  I get nervous leaving my bags 30 feet away at the door to the train car in Oslo, I'd never do that in a big US city.

 

But Oslo is a good model if you're going to do something like this.  The train station is right downstairs in the terminal so it's really fast to get off of your plane and get on a train.  There are special luggage racks to store big bags.  And then it's one stop or non-stop to the central station downtown.

 

And I'm just speaking to the model that I'd like to see, I'm purposefully not addressing:

economic viability, ridership numbers, opposition from cab companies, etc.

[Montrose1100]

Unfortunately very few ever did.  I tried it a couple of times when I didn't have much luggage, but I think I was the only actual traveler.  It seemed to me that the rest of the few riders were airport employees getting to/from work.

 

And luggage was not catered to.  My experience with airport transfer trains in other cities is that they are specifically configured to have luggage storage areas.  The busses that I rode on were regular busses.  And in the US, I think you'd need special luggage compartments close by where each traveler was sitting.  I get nervous leaving my bags 30 feet away at the door to the train car in Oslo, I'd never do that in a big US city.

 

But Oslo is a good model if you're going to do something like this.  The train station is right downstairs in the terminal so it's really fast to get off of your plane and get on a train.  There are special luggage racks to store big bags.  And then it's one stop or non-stop to the central station downtown.

 

And I'm just speaking to the model that I'd like to see, I'm purposefully not addressing:

economic viability, ridership numbers, opposition from cab companies, etc.

 

London's is similar with the Heathrow express. It connects to the terminals, and then to Paddington Station. Of course, from there it's easier to take the Bus to see Parliament and the Thames (for us, anyways). It would be great to have a direct route to Downtown with the baggage space. But I probably won't see that in my lifetime. The light rail connecting... maybe...

[livincinco]

London's is similar with the Heathrow express. It connects to the terminals, and then to Paddington Station. Of course, from there it's easier to take the Bus to see Parliament and the Thames (for us, anyways). It would be great to have a direct route to Downtown with the baggage space. But I probably won't see that in my lifetime. The light rail connecting... maybe...

 

I don't think that light rail would be particularly effective as an airport connection due to the number of stops.  The red line takes 30 min to go 7.5 miles - an average of 15 miles/hour.  The distance from U of H - Downtown to IAH is about 20 miles.  Assuming that there is a lower number of stops in between and that the train is able to achieve an average of 20 miles/hour (yes, I picked that number because it made the math easy), then you're talking about a 1 hour trip each way.

 

It really needs to be an express.

[mfastx]

I don't think that light rail would be particularly effective as an airport connection due to the number of stops.  The red line takes 30 min to go 7.5 miles - an average of 15 miles/hour.  The distance from U of H - Downtown to IAH is about 20 miles.  Assuming that there is a lower number of stops in between and that the train is able to achieve an average of 20 miles/hour (yes, I picked that number because it made the math easy), then you're talking about a 1 hour trip each way.

 

It really needs to be an express.

 

Agreed.  For light rail to work there'd have to be a very limited number of stops on the way to the airport. 

 

Alternatively, heavy rail technology could be used (which would be faster and generate more ridership), but it would be somewhat redundant since we are already going that way with light rail. 

[ricco67]

I think as long as there is *A* connection to the airport it would be just fine.

 

Not everyone coming to and from IAH is planning on making a stop directly to downtown.

The Metro Express was poorly executed, but from what I understand, they were hampered in different ways so it wouldn't piss off the Taxi companies as well.

 

Please name cities that have DIRECT EXPRESS rail from their airports to DOWNTOWN. 

At this juncture, I can only think of one.

[nativehoustonion]

EWR to Penn Station to NYC, Boston, Chicago, Atlanta, Phoenix, Portland OR., Philadelphia, Washington D. C. To DCA, San Francisco. I missing someone? It is just Houston is so big in land the original plan did have rail to both airports. Now we cannot get the University Line built. I think Dallas DART is building a line to DFW, but I think they delayed it. DART has the lowest ridership after 90 miles of light rail.

[ricco67]

But are those EXPRESS lines?

 

I've been to Chicago, NYC, Boston, and Atlanta.  NONE have express to downtown.  You board the train and you sit there for awhile with all the other transit riders until you get to your general destination.

 

 

 

[livincinco]

Part of that is driven by distance.  EWR to Penn Station is only two stops (20-25 min.  ATL and BOS are so close to downtown that it's irrelevant.  I can't really speak to how much usage Chicago has.

 

If you look at international airports, I'd add Hong Kong, Seoul, and Shanghai which all have express trains that run directly.

[ricco67]

The point is, there is NO express.  The only one that can be considered an express is Reagan, and only because its so close to DC its ridiculous.   You can almost walk to it from the Capital building.

 

Chicago has a significant amount of usage. I forget exactly, but it was a number of stops and about 30-45 minutes from downtown.

 

Yes, you can build a link to The airports.  Yes. They will be utilized.  But no, they won't get the numbers you expect them to have.  Express Rail lines aren't the way to go.  At least, not currently.

 

30 yrs from now? Maybe.

[Houston19514]

EWR to Penn Station to NYC, Boston, Chicago, Atlanta, Phoenix, Portland OR., Philadelphia, Washington D. C. To DCA, San Francisco. I missing someone? It is just Houston is so big in land the original plan did have rail to both airports. Now we cannot get the University Line built. I think Dallas DART is building a line to DFW, but I think they delayed it. DART has the lowest ridership after 90 miles of light rail.

 

As Ricco already mentioned, NYC, Boston, Chicago and Atlanta do not have express service from their airports to downtown. 

 

Nor do Phoenix, Washington DC, San Francisco, Portland, or Phildelphia (in other words, none of the cities nativehoustonian listed).  The closest is probably Philadelphia, where you can take SEPTA with only one intermediate stop; but note that it still takes 25 minutes to travel the 10 miles from PHI to downtown Philly.

 

Ricco:  I'm curious.  What is the one city you are aware of that has express service?

[mfastx]

IMO a rail line to the airport shouldn't be express, but just fast.  Like the MARTA in Atlanta. 

 

Of course, if there are crosstown rail lines and good quality bus lines connecting to the rail line that goes to the airport, this creates an easy transfer for people going to the airport that aren't coming from downtown. 

 

Just one rail line to the airport won't do much by itself. 

[ricco67]

The Beijing Express for one.  

 

I want to say shanghai airport has another, but I don't recall.

[ricco67]

IMO a rail line to the airport shouldn't be express, but just fast.  Like the MARTA in Atlanta. 

 

Of course, if there are crosstown rail lines and good quality bus lines connecting to the rail line that goes to the airport, this creates an easy transfer for people going to the airport that aren't coming from downtown. 

 

Just one rail line to the airport won't do much by itself. 

 

No. A rail line needs to be efficient in what it is designed for.  From there people will utilize it best if its properly designed.

[livincinco]

There are several Asian cities that have nice rail lines from their airports, but that's mainly because they were built a long way from the city and go through a lot of rural area before they get into the cities.

 

That being said, I don't think that it's a particularly good option for Houston.

[livincinco]

The Beijing Express for one.  

 

I want to say shanghai airport has another, but I don't recall.

 

Shanghai has a maglev that runs from the airport to Pudong.  It's very cool, but it has nothing to do with efficient transportation.  It was built for show.

[nativehoustonion]

The Chicago CTA is right at ORD. You are correct, you mean non stop service to downtown,. Very few cities have that. The CTA takes about 40 minutes. The other cities do have stops at the airports, but no express service.

[mfastx]

No. A rail line needs to be efficient in what it is designed for.  From there people will utilize it best if its properly designed.

 

The MARTA in Atlanta is efficient enough.  In fact, heavy rail would be more efficient over longer distances than light rail, simply due to lack of ridership on light rail. 

[ricco67]

The MARTA in Atlanta is efficient enough.  In fact, heavy rail would be more efficient over longer distances than light rail, simply due to lack of ridership on light rail. 

 

Like I said previously, in only a very few instances, would an express to the airport work work.   Simply not enough ridership to justify it.

[nativehoustonion]

Yes your right but it is so expensive. We should have started building heavy rail 20 years ago. We are now stuck with concrete. METRO, Houston, and Harris County must create a transportation plane to move forward.

[mfastx]

Like I said previously, in only a very few instances, would an express to the airport work work.   Simply not enough ridership to justify it.

 

Oh okay I think there was a miscommunication.  I never suggested an express line, just faster technology.  It would still have stops. 

 

 

Yes your right but it is so expensive. We should have started building heavy rail 20 years ago. We are now stuck with concrete. METRO, Houston, and Harris County must create a transportation plane to move forward.

 

Ha, well we almost did in the early 80s.  But the original line proposed seemed too expensive to voters and thus it was voted down.  Unfortunate, because if the entire system had been built out as Kiepper (METRO's leader at the time) had envisioned, we would have a much more effective transit system. 

[ricco67]

Oh okay I think there was a miscommunication.  I never suggested an express line, just faster technology.  It would still have stops. 

 

 

 

Faster technology?

Teleportation?

 

Explain how you would do it?  Please realize there are several communities that live on the way to Bush that could also utilize that line.

[totheskies]

If I remember correctly, it took well over an hour to ride the Tube from Heathrow to Central London's Piccadilly Circus.  Of course after my trip there, I learned that Heathrow also has an express train to Paddington Station, but I wasn't bothered by the extra time. 

 

Point being, before we start arguing about Express, we should have ANY sort of train service first I think.  And I don't see why it would be so difficult to bus a TRUE Express busway that could later be converted to train. 

[Spacecityroller]

IAH is a long way from the CBD. This group is planning HSR from DFW to Houston.

 

 

Here is a link to the recent story about the group (TexasCentralHSR). This group stated they plan on mainly using existing freight line ROW. And they have private financing, not government financing.  My guess is it will be elevated within the major population centers.

http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/2013/08/tom-schieffers-name-gives-octane-to-texas-high-speed-rail-project.html/

 

The reason why I bring this up here is why not have the Houston terminus for this HSR line be at the burnett transit center and have a stop near IAH with shuttle busses between that stop and the airport. Here is an illustration showing what I mean.

 

 

How does that sound? The red line I drew was along existing freight ROW and the section within 610 is also along the portion of land they plan on using to extend the Hardy Toll Road into downtown.

 

 

[Slick Vik]

I don't think that light rail would be particularly effective as an airport connection due to the number of stops. The red line takes 30 min to go 7.5 miles - an average of 15 miles/hour. The distance from U of H - Downtown to IAH is about 20 miles. Assuming that there is a lower number of stops in between and that the train is able to achieve an average of 20 miles/hour (yes, I picked that number because it made the math easy), then you're talking about a 1 hour trip each way.

It really needs to be an express.

Light rail can go pretty fast. DART trains go fast once they leave downtown.

[RedScare]

I applaud your thinking out of the traditional. However, why put a stop near the airport? The HSR will run between Dallas and Houston. Both cities have major airports. How many people will take a high speed train from one city to the other in order to get to the airport? And for that few people, why can't they take a bus from the CBD to the airport? Remember, that stop up on the Hardy Toll Road will add 15-20 minutes to a 90 minute trip. That is 15-20% longer, just for the one or two people who might want to go to the airport.

 

Not worth it. Not even close. Let them take a bus from the CBD. As for light rail to IAH, when commuter rail goes to Kingwood, it can stop at IAH on the way. Until then, take the 102.

[Spacecityroller]

I applaud your thinking out of the traditional. However, why put a stop near the airport? The HSR will run between Dallas and Houston. Both cities have major airports. How many people will take a high speed train from one city to the other in order to get to the airport? And for that few people, why can't they take a bus from the CBD to the airport? Remember, that stop up on the Hardy Toll Road will add 15-20 minutes to a 90 minute trip. That is 15-20% longer, just for the one or two people who might want to go to the airport.

 

Not worth it. Not even close. Let them take a bus from the CBD. As for light rail to IAH, when commuter rail goes to Kingwood, it can stop at IAH on the way. Until then, take the 102.

 

Your right. But they could add a 3rd track at each of those stations and have a local airport run with a smaller train set. The headways are 30 min after all. Heck add another stop near the Woodlands and erect a giant parking garage with another station with 3 sets of tracks there also for a local commuter/airport run. That sounds like alot of people would use that.

[RedScare]

I wonder what your idea would cost, and what the ridership would be. Maybe half billion dollars for a couple of hundred riders per day? Is there no better use of scarce transit dollars? Is the obsession with having a rail connection to an airport (in order to brag on Skyscraper Page) so big that we would give up high traffic inner loop routes simply for bragging rights? METRO proves over and over and over that no one would ride an IAH line, yet people continue to clamor for it.

 

It's madness!