Terror Plot Foiled

[77017]

Well, I guess YOU told HIM! How immature and crude. Maybe you and Moonman should get together and share a bottle. Bore each other to death.

Welcome, Discerning. This is a (normally) good site. This particular thread has things heated up. And I agree with you about the saber rattling and chest puffing. Moonman and "17" just don't like hearing the truth about themselves.

So, please don't think that 77017 is representative of most of us on this forum. There are really some insightful and witty people who participate here. Enjoy.

E** a ***k.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Let's talk about effective for a moment. Effective is the way al Qaida has been pulling the strings of this administration for 5 years. Effective is the administration invading Iraq, allowing al Qaida to use it for recruitment for 3 and a half years. Effective is the tactics employed by a group believed to number only 500 to 1000, that manage, with the administration's help to terrorize the world's only superpower, even when the plot fails.

THAT is effective.

Now, here's what you propose, best that I can tell. We start by telling every country with a sizable Muslim population, that they are "either with us or against us". Then we start aiming nukes at these countries, many of whom are like Lebanon, so weak that they cannot control the criminal groups within their borders. When Lebanon or the others fail to comply, we drop a tactical nuke on them, a bomb so ridiculously named as to feed speculation that we are the stupidest nation on earth.

Now, this nuke, being not nearly as tactical as implied, destroys Beirut, including every one of the Christian Lebanese who actually support Israel and the US. This does not concern Hezbollah or Iran or al Qaida. They are only concerned with the thousands of Shiites killed in the blast, and, while secretly celebrating the US's faux pas of nuclear proportions, publicly scream for revenge, as this is more proof of the intent of the US to kill all Muslims.

Recruitment of suicide bombers escalates as al Qaida training camps fill to overflowing. The 500 to 1000 al Qaida operatives swell to tens of thousands, all plotting to blow up planes, trains, shopping centers, hotels and other targets, that will have the effect of strangling the economy, as travel comes to a screeching halt.

Meanwhile, the US government is fending off tirades from the entire civilized world, as the economy plummets and thousands of NEW terrorists have been created. As each cafe explodes, prompting more ambulance sirens wailing in the night, al Qaida releases another video or posts another memo on the web, claiming responsibility, and blaming the escalation in violence on the US.

In the Middle East, diplomats and Western oil field workers have long ago gone home. Because the US has now used a nuke on Middle Eastern soil, drastic measures must be taken. OPEC shuts the spigots to any American company. Because the US imports two-thirds of its oil, prices skyrocket. The US economy is imploding. Russia, who never trusted the US and its nukes anyway, shuts off its oil, too. Venezuela, in a show of solidarity, halts oil sales to US companies.

The US govt. is undeterred. Tehran is bombed. TV shows video of the dead women and children. Russia and China threaten retaliation if the nukes continue. The US cannot possibly fight two nuclear powers at once, but remains beligerent, doubting their nerve. Europe, being the Middle East's neighbor, threatens economic blockades. In the States, not only are pacifists and liberals up in arms, so are the poor, the middle class, and American business. In short, outside of a few dozen neo-cons, the entire US populace is rioting in the streets.

In an undisclosed bunker, President Bush looks at Mr. Cheney. "Well, this is a fine mess you've gotten us into", he deadpans. "What do we do now?"

Lost interest..........

[Montrose1100]

The best part of the yahoo article is "The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because Britain asked that no information be released."

I'm just pissed there will be no carry-on luggage. f***ers.

[nmainguy]

Lost interest..........

...or just got confused.

[TheNiche]

Let's talk about effective for a moment. Effective is the way al Qaida has been pulling the strings of this administration for 5 years. Effective is the administration invading Iraq, allowing al Qaida to use it for recruitment for 3 and a half years. Effective is the tactics employed by a group believed to number only 500 to 1000, that manage, with the administration's help to terrorize the world's only superpower, even when the plot fails.

THAT is effective.

Now, here's what you propose, best that I can tell. We start by telling every country with a sizable Muslim population, that they are "either with us or against us". Then we start aiming nukes at these countries, many of whom are like Lebanon, so weak that they cannot control the criminal groups within their borders. When Lebanon or the others fail to comply, we drop a tactical nuke on them, a bomb so ridiculously named as to feed speculation that we are the stupidest nation on earth.

Now, this nuke, being not nearly as tactical as implied, destroys Beirut, including every one of the Christian Lebanese who actually support Israel and the US. This does not concern Hezbollah or Iran or al Qaida. They are only concerned with the thousands of Shiites killed in the blast, and, while secretly celebrating the US's faux pas of nuclear proportions, publicly scream for revenge, as this is more proof of the intent of the US to kill all Muslims.

Recruitment of suicide bombers escalates as al Qaida training camps fill to overflowing. The 500 to 1000 al Qaida operatives swell to tens of thousands, all plotting to blow up planes, trains, shopping centers, hotels and other targets, that will have the effect of strangling the economy, as travel comes to a screeching halt.

Meanwhile, the US government is fending off tirades from the entire civilized world, as the economy plummets and thousands of NEW terrorists have been created. As each cafe explodes, prompting more ambulance sirens wailing in the night, al Qaida releases another video or posts another memo on the web, claiming responsibility, and blaming the escalation in violence on the US.

In the Middle East, diplomats and Western oil field workers have long ago gone home. Because the US has now used a nuke on Middle Eastern soil, drastic measures must be taken. OPEC shuts the spigots to any American company. Because the US imports two-thirds of its oil, prices skyrocket. The US economy is imploding. Russia, who never trusted the US and its nukes anyway, shuts off its oil, too. Venezuela, in a show of solidarity, halts oil sales to US companies.

The US govt. is undeterred. Tehran is bombed. TV shows video of the dead women and children. Russia and China threaten retaliation if the nukes continue. The US cannot possibly fight two nuclear powers at once, but remains beligerent, doubting their nerve. Europe, being the Middle East's neighbor, threatens economic blockades. In the States, not only are pacifists and liberals up in arms, so are the poor, the middle class, and American business. In short, outside of a few dozen neo-cons, the entire US populace is rioting in the streets.

In an undisclosed bunker, President Bush looks at Mr. Cheney. "Well, this is a fine mess you've gotten us into", he deadpans. "What do we do now?"

Although mostly well-thought-out (with the exception of oil market issues), this scenario seems a bit on the extreme side. I know folks who swore in 2000 and again in 2004 that the world would end by either 2004 or 2008, respectively, because of the so-called 'little red button' matter. I really hope that you aren't one of those.

Moonman is right that diplomacy alone won't work, but you're right that nukes would be far worse. I don't claim to have an optimal solution. Does anybody?

[MarthaG]

...or just got confused.

I think the problem with moonie is he cannot think past his d*** (oops, excuss me).

His answer to everything is Kill first, don't stop to think about the consequences.

Thankfully we have Red to paint a picture that takes numerous things into consideration. I envy his wit.

I have not been able to log on today, so I've been out of the loop. Eventhough the subject is serious, reading this thread has provided an abundt of laughs. I'm sorry that the new person (cann't remember the name) got caught in the crossfire.

[nmainguy]

I think the problem with moonie is he cannot think past his d*** (oops, excuss me).

MARTHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RedScare]

Moonman is right that diplomacy alone won't work, but you're right that nukes would be far worse. I don't claim to have an optimal solution. Does anybody?

You do what any government gang does when confronted with an organized criminal organization. Create a police task force to investigate and search them out. The US should strengthen its ties with its allies around the world, sharing intelligence to find the ringleaders. Undercover agents can and should be deployed to silently "take out" the gang leaders, whether it be kidnapping for interrogation, or assassination to end that terrorist's influence for good. If done quietly, it gives no fuel for the rest of the group to rally around.

Diplomacy and bullying can be used with sovereign states, but not with criminal gangs. Even Hezbollah and Hamas have a political component. al Qaida is nothing more than an MS-13 or the Mafia, whose goal is pandemonium, rather than monetary profit.

[MidtownCoog]

The US should strengthen its ties with its allies around the world, sharing intelligence to find the ringleaders.

You act as if this is hot happening. Don't confuse the Iraq opposition with cooperation on fighting terrorism.

There is more of a problem with US agencies sharing information amongst themselves than with our allies.

[RedScare]

You act as if this is hot happening. Don't confuse the Iraq opposition with cooperation on fighting terrorism.

There is more of a problem with US agencies sharing information amongst themselves than with our allies.

Sorry for the confusion. I know it is happening. In spite of the apparent snippiness with France, for example, US agencies cooperate extensively with France's extremely capable anti-terrorism unit. The best approach does not play well on cable news, since clandestine operations don't produce 'shock and awe' videos. But, it IS the best approach, since terror groups crave publicity. American citizens need to adjust their thinking on that issue.

It would help if American politicians didn't use terror as a campaign issue, either...but, maybe I am asking for too much.

[Highway6]

Back on topic.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles//Read...le.asp?ID=14249

On June 29, 2004, at 12:28 p.m., I flew on Northwest Airlines flight #327 from Detroit to Los Angeles with my husband and our young son. Also on our flight were 14 Middle Eastern men between the ages of approximately 20 and 50 years old. What I experienced during that flight has caused me to question whether the United States of America can realistically uphold the civil liberties of every individual, even non-citizens, and protect its citizens from terrorist threats.

Upon reading this article and account of events in 2004, I'm curious who here would see this as

a : irrational fear/ islamophobia/ conservative fear machine out to get ya

or

b : legitimate reason for concern over the state of our (in)security incompetence and by how much the US is handcuffing itself compared to European airline security

Assuming current events with the hoopla in London was legit and a serious attack was thwarted.... I get this eerie feeling that the one mistake they made that lead to their failure was flying from the UK to the US instead of the other way around.

[MidtownCoog]

I get this eerie feeling that the one mistake they made that lead to their failure was flying from the UK to the US instead of the other way around.

That's the problems with feelings! They don't read the news.

You can thank Pakistan:

Pakistan said the plot was thwarted after active coordination between Pakistani, British and U.S. intelligence agencies, leading to the arrest of 24 people in Britain.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews....TAN-ARRESTS.xml

[Highway6]

That's the problems with feelings! They don't read the news.

You can thank Pakistan:

Pakistan said the plot was thwarted after active coordination between Pakistani, British and U.S. intelligence agencies, leading to the arrest of 24 people in Britain.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews....TAN-ARRESTS.xml

I'm aware of that and I understand the Pakistani intelligence working with London stopped this. From what I've read, UK intelligence were following a few of them, and once they moved in, it was then they reazlied the scope of what was happening and how many others were involved.

The article I posted has nothing to do with the gathering and sharing of intelligence amongst contries. IT has to do with security implementation based on that. How does the UK deal with profiling or lack therof ? I don't know.. someone enlighten me.

What I meant by my comment was... had this been a homegrown operation here, and the dry runs started from here... it seems like the chance for success would have been greater.

I mean.. where all of a sudden does thankfullness for our intellignece agencies here come from? So now they're doing a good job. THis thread started out with mocking of our threat level being raised and "ohhh Republicans, come save us". As democrats like to remind us, our intelligence won't catch everything, and sometimes they'll be wrong. So I think implementaion should err on the side of caution and being able to luck into doing the right thing. It's a no-win situation for our intelliegnece community. ITs a no-win for our airline security community too.

The FBI issues a warning, and yet, there is still a quota per flight on the number of Arab-looking passengers that can be screened, and penalties agaisnt airlines if they don't comply.

An air marshall can't react to suspicious behavior.. can only act if something actually happens. We let our police investigate and pull over if there is suspicion of wrong doing or probable cause... but not our air marshalls or security checkpoints ?

[MidtownCoog]

Like Red said:

It would help if American politicians didn't use terror as a campaign issue, either...but, maybe I am asking for too much.

The same goes for John Q. Public.

[RedScare]

Hwy6, you are all over the map, none of it relevant to what Coog and I were talking about. Real intelligence and real clandestine operations do not occur at the airport screening table. It occurs in poor neighborhoods in foreign countries. It occurs with the cooperation of foreign agents who look and speak the language of the criminals we are seeking. Airport screening, while important, has nothing to do with intelligence and criminal investigations.

I'm not sure what your original article has to do with anything. The Middle Easterners that the writer had a panic attack over, were musicians with no criminal ties whatsoever. This has more to do with Coog's comment about John Q. Public than a real effort to combat criminal gangs engaging in terrorism. That is my whole point. Effective measures to combat terrorism are boring and do not play well with the public. As long as the public demands flashy news bites, and politicians aim to provide them, little is accomplished. It is the behind the scenes stuff that matters.

This is analagous to that show, CSI. REAL crime scene searches are dreadfully boring, but very important. REAL terror prevention is dreadfully boring, as well, but terribly important.

EDIT: Oh, one comment on the threat level. I can think of absolutely NO legitimate use of this chart, other than terrorizing the public by the government. It doesn't solve crime, find terrorists, find evidence, interrupt communications...nothing. It only scares people that wish to be scared. Get rid of it.

[Highway6]

Like Red said:

The same goes for John Q. Public.

I agree... I'm not the one that started this thread using a foiled terrorist attack as reaosn to mock Republicans.

I realize its a balance of individual civil liberties vs security of the group. I just think we have the wrong balance.

Ya know though... we hear KKK... we think southern redneck and can safely assume 99.9% will be white

We hear MS-13,.. we think El Salvador and can safely assume 99.9% will be hispanic.

Same for NAACP, Black Panthers, Mormons, River Oaks County Club Board of Directors

And number of groups can be mentioned, and you can safely assume the color makeup. Color and ethinicity (while not always) can be such a glaring and obvious visual identifier.

I know there has been Timothy McVeigh, and John Walker Lindh and IRA.. but here and now, the terror issue at hand is that of terrorism by islamic extremists...how long will it take before we can safely assume 90% of islamic terrorist will be of some arab ethnicity.

We allow decisions based on race and color all the time. Affirmative action is discrimination based on color.

But it positive descrimination, as seen by some, so it is allowable. But what's positive for one is negative for another. For every one person thats gets somewhere in life based on color and not qualifications, someone else that was qualified got screwed over.

I think ithe net result would be positive to be able to ensure safe skies.. so why isnt descrimination allowable here ?

I just think we don't have a good balance yet, and its inevitable it will bite us in the ass.

[RedScare]

...how long will it take before we can safely assume 90% of islamic terrorist will be of some arab ethnicity.

The day that we find out that 90% of Muslims are Arab.

Do your research. It will answer your question. There are actually more Asian Muslims than Arab.

[Highway6]

Hwy6, you are all over the map, none of it relevant to what Coog and I were talking about. Real intelligence and real clandestine operations do not occur at the airport screening table. It occurs in poor neighborhoods in foreign countries. It occurs with the cooperation of foreign agents who look and speak the language of the criminals we are seeking. Airport screening, while important, has nothing to do with intelligence and criminal investigations.

Red.. I was starting my own mini-topic as a tangent dealing not at all with intelligence gathering on terrorists and everything to do with security measures since implemented.

Yes, those people in the article may have well ended up being legitimate musicians and no threat whatsoever. That is besides the point.

The point is, they were still acting in a suspicious enough manner to have everyone on the plane worried, and to have security waiting for them.

I question why more wasn't done at the time.

Why didnt the pilot put on the seatbelt sign, so that the stewardess could enforce it and at least try to stop the suspicious activity.

If there are air marshalls on board witnessing this parade to the restroom.. why arent they alowed to get up, feign using the restroom, to investigate.

To be clear, my posts this morning have zero to do with the intellignece side of fighting terrorists. Bringing up CSI and such is besides the point. My posts are dealing with the people in charge that could make desisions to ensure safelty are being too restricted in the name of protecting civil liberties. The air marshalls... not being able to act upon witnessing suspicious behavior... i find that insane.

[MidtownCoog]

I don't think the anti-Republican crowd will be happy until we have a terrorist attack under the watch of a Democratic administration.

Ooops!

That alreday happend. Nevermind.

[RedScare]

The air marshalls... not being able to act upon witnessing suspicious behavior... i find that insane.

How do you know that nothing happened? Air marshalls do not announce their presence. They do their work in anonimity...which is precisely my point. The public does not know what all the police do in the course of their jobs, and does not need to know. You have taken an article by an overly sensitive reporter and made it out to be an indictment of law enforcement, or lack thereof, when throughout the article, the reporter admits she knows nothing. The behavior was suspicious to the writer, not necessarily those who are paid to know.

[Highway6]

The day that we find out that 90% of Muslims are Arab.

Do your research. It will answer your question. There are actually more Asian Muslims than Arab.

Muslims aren't the enemy. We don't have to screen those that are muslim. One can't tell someone is muslim by looking at them. You can tell most likely if someone is arab in ethnicity.

Muslims aren't the enemy trying to blow us up... Muslim extremeists from the the middle east are the ones trying to blow us up.

Are there asian-muslim extrmemist? Im sure there are. But when was the last time you saw Asian muslims reported as coming out of Al Quaeda camps or holding rifles in their terror videos they send out? It hasnt happened yet. So far, its only been the middle-eastern muslims that want to kill us, not the rest of the muslims.

[MidtownCoog]

Are there asian-muslim extrmemist?

Bali

[Highway6]

How do you know that nothing happened? Air marshalls do not announce their presence. They do their work in anonimity...which is precisely my point.

I asked Adams why, based on the FBI's credible information that terrorists may try to assemble bombs on planes, the air marshals or the flight attendants didn't do anything about the bizarre behavior and frequent trips to the lavatory. "Our FAM agents have to have an event to arrest somebody. Our agents aren't going to deploy until there is an actual event," Adams explained. He said he could not speak for the policies of Northwest Airlines

I understand the point for anonimity but at what point though do they announce their presence and act on what they are observing. What would merit that? It seems nothing.

In the case of the story and what is happening in London now.. the goal was not to hijcak and go kamikaze, but to blow up the plane in midflight. That could have been done in the lavatory.

Which means.. asking the agent to wait for something to happen before acting would be too late.

Which answers my original question...

You see the story describing suspicious activities as islamaphobia and a populace trained to overreact by the fear-mongers and as nothing that should have been given serious consideration to investigate at the time or and any attempt to stop the suspicious behaviour wouldnt be merited.

[RedScare]

Muslims aren't the enemy. We don't have to screen those that are muslim. One can't tell someone is muslim by looking at them. You can tell most likely if someone is arab in ethnicity.

Muslims aren't the enemy trying to blow us up... Muslim extremeists from the the middle east are the ones trying to blow us up.

Are there asian-muslim extrmemist? Im sure there are. But when was the last time you saw Asian muslims reported as coming out of Al Quaeda camps or holding rifles in their terror videos they send out? It hasnt happened yet. So far, its only been the middle-eastern muslims that want to kill us, not the rest of the muslims.

Yesterday.

A Homeland Security official commented on the fact that as soon as people fixate on Arab ethnicity, al Qaida sends in Southeast Asians to throw people off. And, as lame as this group was, the Miami arrests were largely American Blacks, with a foreigner as leader. As much as people want to engage in racial profiling, law enforcement knows that that is the least effective tool for ferreting out crime. Besides, what agents are looking for is not what a person looks like, but what they are saying, planning and doing. Much of this intelligence comes from communications, such as intercepted phone calls and emails. The callerID does not state the caller's ethnicity.

You are still caught up in identifying terrorists at the airport screening table. That's not where these groups are busted. It is away from the airports.

Which answers my original question...

You see the story describing suspicious activities as islamaphobia and a populace trained to overreact by the fear-mongers and as nothing that should have been given serious consideration to investigate at the time or and any attempt to stop the suspicious behaviour wouldnt be merited.

No, I see letting terrorists on the plane in the first place as too late. The London bombers were found out and investigated BEFORE they got to the airport. Intelligence and inter-governmental cooperation foiled this plot. I make no conclusions on the Northwest flight because I have no information on what any government agents did. You are jumping to conclusions, which is your right, but it does not make you right.

[Highway6]

Are there asian-muslim extrmemist?

Bali

I didnt say there weren't. I am saying, of all the ones captured, investigated, stopped in casuing harm to us though our airline industry... and of those that succeeded.... none were asian-muslim extrememist. 99% are middle-eastern in ethnicity.

Besides, what agents are looking for is not what a person looks like, but what they are saying, planning and doing. Much of this intelligence comes from communications, such as intercepted phone calls and emails. The callerID does not state the caller's ethnicity.

You are still caught up in identifying terrorists at the airport screening table. That's not where these groups are busted. It is away from the airports.

I do understand and agree that the intellignece is done away from the airports, and its boring, and not glamourous.

IF the FBI sends out a report.. "Be on the alert of middle easterners in groupd ranging from 5-8" yet, it is stil against the law for screeners to apply secondary screening measures to more than 2 of them out of so many people.... ?

IT is also AT the airports. We are still handcuffed at being able to act on the intelligence.

Air marshalls on board are the last defense... very much at the airport and on the airplane.. yet they cant act unless somethign for sure is happeneing.

[RedScare]

The son of an English mother and Jamaican father, so-called "shoe bomber" Richard Reid was born in 1973 in the London suburb of Bromley.

If the FBI sends out a memo to be on the lookout for a 5 foot 8 inch Middle Easterner, they have narrowed the search to about 100 million people.

Let me assure you that law enforcement does a better job than that.

[Highway6]

No, I see letting terrorists on the plane in the first place as too late.

But our intelliengece isn't perfect. Whats the point of Air MArshalls and steeper security in general then if you feel that way. Some will get through.

Isnt it a good thing to have other security measures in place..... and wouldnt it be a good thing to have them able to act and do their job.

[RedScare]

But our intelliengece isn't perfect. Whats the point of Air MArshalls and steeper security in general then if you feel that way. Some will get through.

Isnt it a good thing to have other security measures in place..... and wouldnt it be a good thing to have them able to act and do their job.

You are correct. Our intelligence is not perfect. But, you seem fixated on telling law enforcement HOW to do their job. I am suggesting that we tell our political leaders to do it more effectively, instead of that which garners the most publicity...because publicity is the TERRORIST'S weapon, not ours.

[Highway6]

You are correct. Our intelligence is not perfect. But, you seem fixated on telling law enforcement HOW to do their job. I am suggesting that we tell our political leaders to do it more effectively, instead of that which garners the most publicity...because publicity is the TERRORIST'S weapon, not ours.

Allowing an airmarshall to act and investigate has nothing to do with garnering publicity for fightting terror.

I'm fixated on allowing them to do their job which is serve and protect.

IF a cop is allowed pull over a driver he suspects is drunk by observing them... why cant the air marshalls act.

The cop doesnt wait till the drunk driver crashes before acting.. that would be irresponsible and pointless.

Police and investigators are allowed to act on suspicion and hunch. They are at least allowed to further investiagate.

Why is maintaining anominity of the air marshalls more important a goal then investigating suspicious behavior.

Maybe airlines should be forced to employ bouncers. As many per flight as there are banks of lavatories. Big and obvious. There to deter suspicious behaviour. BE friendly, be helpful, smile... but to be able to do something when 6 suspects, of any ethinicity, are seen parading, congreagating, passing signals, passing contents of mcdonalds bags, etc.

IF intellignece has been gathered, and our agencies tell us.. we have reasons to believe the current terrorist MO is to smuggle on parts, and put together on the flights...

We can reasonable assume then, the above behavior jives with that intelligence.

Then the responsible thing would be able to act.

[Gary]

I don't mean for us to hold hands around the campfire and sing, but we (Conservatives, Republicans, Liberals, Democrats etc) have got to find a way to middle ground. Our enemies want to see us destroyed regardless of Liberal or conservative persuasion, and as they see us as divided, they are going to go for the jugular.

The media, regardless of ones political preference, is biased toward sensationalism. The people buy into that sensationalism because they want to be entertained. As they choose to be entertained by there station of choice, (CNN Liberal or FOX conservative) they become more stedfast in there belief that the other side is way off track.

I understand the polar opposites of Republicans and Democrats, but these are extreme times. We have got to stop this unhealthy bickering with each other and show the enemy that when it comes down to it, we will unite.

I'm not asking someone to compromise there core belief system, but rather ask them to put off arguing about the stuff that just doesn't matter. At least for a while.

I know it's cliche, but have we forgotten how united we were after 9/11? That is what these evil people need to see lest we embolden them further.