Jump to content

METRORail University Line


ricco67

Recommended Posts

My point has never been about the vehicle lanes taken for rail on Richmond or Westpark, but concerns a far larger problem.

The point is that Westpark and its intersections w/n-s streets inside the loop is too close to the high-capacity freeways and their service roads. Because of the realities of at-grade rail demonstrated by the Red Line, such things as all-stop lights and limited turns at intersections have to be taken into account. Including those variables at intersections only 200 feet from busy freeway offramps and service road intersections w/the raw #s of vehicles that exit/enter 59 and the Wpark Tollway, and use the 4 n-s arteries between the loop and Shepherd, suggests LRT will have an adverse effect on commuter mobility. LRT should have the opposite effect if planned and sited correctly.

You're right that crossings of major thoroughfares so close to the freeway (which are already horrifyingly congested) would adversely affect mobility.

Solution: grade-seperation. Between Shepherd and the railroad tracks, it would only take six grade seperations to prevent any interaction with a major thoroughfare whatsoever, thus eliminating the need to stop at poorly-timed signals, where cars are stopped on the tracks, or even the possibility of a collision; that means that the train can also travel faster. There would only be a couple of low-traffic secondary streets impacted.

Contrast that with a Richmond route (also congested) where there are dozens of secondary streets that will likely be closed off or adversely impacted, where vehicle lanes along a major thoroughfare may be sacrificed, and where trains will play in traffic, stopping at lights that aren't timed well or where cars are stopped on the tracks.

Instead of looking down from space, you need to go stand on Westpark at Wesleyan or Buffalo Spdwy and look at the reality on the ground.

One of the advantages of looking down from space is that it allows you to be a visionary. Being there in person only makes you think about what is there as opposed to the spatial configuration of what could be there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 4.3k
  • Created
  • Last Reply
Truth be told, I'm personally getting fed up with the attitudes along the western leg of the University Line. These people are never satisfied and will never be satisfied.

I tend to agree. Just the fact that Culberson still insists on putting LRT on 59 between Montrose and Kirby is a sure deal-killer...which is what he and his allies in Afton Oaks are all about.

So for all intents and purposes this thread is dead. Red was correct when he titled it "University Line On Richmond, Shortsighted opposition growing"

And as IHB2 said: politics has trumped logic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're right that crossings of major thoroughfares so close to the freeway (which are already horrifyingly congested) would adversely affect mobility.

Solution: grade-seperation. Between Shepherd and the railroad tracks, it would only take six grade seperations to prevent any interaction with a major thoroughfare whatsoever,

but elevating along the Wpark ROW eliminates the only advantage the route ever had - cost. only by running past GPlaza to Cummins did METRO even remotely approach the FTA parameters for fed $$, and even that route probably falls short. there just isn't enough potential ridership on Wpark inside the loop to make the #s work, and that includes projecting out to 2030.

as Jim Henley said in an op-ed article last week, the selection process so far has been dysfunctional and it is therefore likely that the end result will be dysfunctional. we've got only 1 chance to get it right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

but elevating along the Wpark ROW eliminates the only advantage the route ever had - cost. only by running past GPlaza to Cummins did METRO even remotely approach the FTA parameters for fed $$, and even that route probably falls short. there just isn't enough potential ridership on Wpark inside the loop to make the #s work, and that includes projecting out to 2030.

as Jim Henley said in an op-ed article last week, the selection process so far has been dysfunctional and it is therefore likely that the end result will be dysfunctional. we've got only 1 chance to get it right.

I agree with Henley. The process has been entirely dysfunctional, corrupted by politicians IMO on both sides of the debate. Nobody has seen how METRO derived their projections. Moreover, to my knowledge, nobody has considered innovative solutions such as pedestrian-moving bridges or grade-seperations. And on top of that, all that matters to the FTA is ridership, but that doesn't mean that traffic flow, safety, and rapid transit shouldn't matter to us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Solution: grade-seperation. Between Shepherd and the railroad tracks, it would only take six grade seperations to prevent any interaction with a major thoroughfare whatsoever, thus eliminating the need to stop at poorly-timed signals, where cars are stopped on the tracks, or even the possibility of a collision; that means that the train can also travel faster. There would only be a couple of low-traffic secondary streets impacted.

Contrast that with a Richmond route (also congested) where there are dozens of secondary streets that will likely be closed off or adversely impacted, where vehicle lanes along a major thoroughfare may be sacrificed, and where trains will play in traffic, stopping at lights that aren't timed well or where cars are stopped on the tracks.

One of the advantages of looking down from space is that it allows you to be a visionary. Being there in person only makes you think about what is there as opposed to the spatial configuration of what could be there.

You hit the bullseye. Interaction with vehicular traffic should be kept to a minimun otherwise the new line will do more to hurt traffic patterns than to help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

but elevating along the Wpark ROW eliminates the only advantage the route ever had - cost. only by running past GPlaza to Cummins did METRO even remotely approach the FTA parameters for fed $$, and even that route probably falls short. there just isn't enough potential ridership on Wpark inside the loop to make the #s work, and that includes projecting out to 2030.

Cost is a factor yes, But not building elevated sections is just as costly on drivers as drive times will be increased.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unfortunately the election process confused the whole issue. METRO decided to put all issues on the ballot as one issue. so park n ride improvements, hov improvments, expanded bus service AND light rail were placed on the ballot together. IMO they were afraid that light rail on its own would not garner the necessary support.

If only the corridor had a different name, so much of the little issues around the ballot politics could be remedied.

BTW. . .Why was Dallas so lucky to get it buried and we weren't?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW. . .Why was Dallas so lucky to get it buried and we weren't?

METRO didn't get their act together on the first line and missed the opportunity for govt support so they had to pay for the line outright. Therefore it was done as cheaply as possible. no grade separations etc. It basically had to be pushed through during Lee brown's administration because noone knew who was going to be the next mayor and whether he/she would support rail.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

METRO didn't get their act together on the first line and missed the opportunity for govt support so they had to pay for the line outright. Therefore it was done as cheaply as possible. no grade separations etc. It basically had to be pushed through during Lee brown's administration because noone knew who was going to be the next mayor and whether he/she would support rail.

Wow, I never knew it was rushed, I thought this was been something since Kathy's time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's kind of revisionist history. Metro had to spend over $300 million in local funds to build the starter line, and it had to coincide with a program to rebuild DT streets and move or replace aging utilities, that did receive federal funding. Those funds were set to run out in 2005. With those restrictions it was impossible to build anything else. Metro would be without rail, and Tom DeLay and Culberson would still be throwing injunctions at the agency.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whichever plan is finally built, the line must, at the very minimum, travel past Greenway Plaza. I can't imagine choosing the plans that doesn't. I don't remember specifically each of the plans, but I think not traveling down to Richmond and Wesleyan would be a mistake. As I recall we have discussed that multi-use building going up where the old HISD complex used to be. That development would be a significant boost to ridership and for further development of the area (I would like to be able to take the train to the movies).

I don't intend to start another tirade, but why do the few home owners that live on Richmond hate the Rail passing by their lot? Most of those houses are worth less than the ground their built on. Not to mention the fact that Richmond in that area is as super busy, and I would imagine that noise and traffic adversely affect their property value. While the construction would certainly be a nuisance, I think that the homeowners are being too shortsighted.

I haven't seen any of your posts on this forum that I can recall, but as homeowner in Afton Oaks that is against "Railroading Richmond" I invite you to scroll back through this thread. You will find a number of my posts that outline the reasons that the majority of homeowners in Afton Oaks are against rail.

Further you are making the same mistake that all pro rail folks have made - you assume that it is just this one little neighborhood on Richmond where, "Most of the houses are worth less than the ground they're built on" that has resulted in the rail being pulled from Richmond for the majority of its proposed route. The anti rail coalition is far bigger than just Afton Oaks. METRO made the mistake of under estimating our commitment, our funding, our organization and our size. If you want to go to the movies take the bus, or subscribe to Netflix.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like The Niche's idea of a pedestrian-friendly walkway w/ air-conditioning and a people mover to cross over to the SW freeway. Excellent, i think some of us should write METRO and propose this idea if they do decide to do the Westpark Alignment.

AftonAg, regarding your comment "If you want to see a movie, take the bus." With that kind of thinking, you and others who think like this are holding this city back from progress. Grow up man and realize times are changing and quit being so selfish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like The Niche's idea of a pedestrian-friendly walkway w/ air-conditioning and a people mover to cross over to the SW freeway. Excellent, i think some of us should write METRO and propose this idea if they do decide to do the Westpark Alignment.

Ugh at the fact that this even has to be mentioned.

I really wish there was an economically feasible way to go underground but I know that's a pipe dream. Underground trenches are dug all the time in this city for construction but doing that with the road above not being interrupted is the problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like The Niche's idea of a pedestrian-friendly walkway w/ air-conditioning and a people mover to cross over to the SW freeway. Excellent, i think some of us should write METRO and propose this idea if they do decide to do the Westpark Alignment.

AftonAg, regarding your comment "If you want to see a movie, take the bus." With that kind of thinking, you and others who think like this are holding this city back from progress. Grow up man and realize times are changing and quit being so selfish.

C2H - If you think that I was worried about what you, or anyone else for that matter, thought about my comment to "take the bus", guess again. In the first place if he wants to take a train to go see a movie he will be waiting for quite awhile, unless he is going to a movie theater on the main line, so the bus is his only current option to see a movie in the Richmond area.

I have also heard your whole line of crap about holding up progress before - it doesn't wash. I am not against mass transit of any kind, I just don't happen to have the "lemming like belief" that because some idiots at METRO think Richmond is the best line we should all just fall in lock step and let them do what they want. We still live in a democracy and the Anti-Rail on Richmond Coalition has as much right to make our feelings known as the Pro-rail side. If you have a problem with that too bad.

Gladly.

When a pawn has a king in check, the king takes the pawn. :lol:

Unless of course the pawn is supported by another piece, like a Congressman . . . so it is just a matter of time until it turns to CHECKMATE!.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

AftonAg, regarding your comment "If you want to see a movie, take the bus." With that kind of thinking, you and others who think like this are holding this city back from progress. Grow up man and realize times are changing and quit being so selfish.

I don't think you can actually take a date to the movie on a bus, some weird stigma about it, but a light rail train, that sound fancier. :mellow:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

These are monarchies, not representative democracies.

Are you saying that you live in a monarchy, my liege?

I don't, I live in a democracy, and obviously enough I understand how it works.

Either way the rail on Richmond isn't going through AO, and I would be willing to bet lunch that it gets stalled by a lawsuit before it goes through lower Richmond. All courtesy of poor planning/and dishonest tactics by METRO. Had METRO been honest on the ballot about the route they really intended to push it would have saved the taxpayers a lot of money because it wouldn't have passed.

I don't think you can actually take a date to the movie on a bus, some weird stigma about it, but a light rail train, that sound fancier. :mellow:

I don't think a date was mentioned, but if that's the case I wouldn't call the intended just yet since it will be a few years before there is a rail running near any theaters on Richmond. Take the bus, or call a cab.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you two (TheNiche AftonAg) don't have anything else to add to this discussion, other than your pissing contest, may I suggest you pm each other, and spare the rest of us who want to focus on substantive issues affecting the line. Thanks in advance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

C2H - If you think that I was worried about what you, or anyone else for that matter, thought about my comment to "take the bus", guess again. In the first place if he wants to take a train to go see a movie he will be waiting for quite awhile, unless he is going to a movie theater on the main line, so the bus is his only current option to see a movie in the Richmond area.

I have also heard your whole line of crap about holding up progress before - it doesn't wash. I am not against mass transit of any kind, I just don't happen to have the "lemming like belief" that because some idiots at METRO think Richmond is the best line we should all just fall in lock step and let them do what they want. We still live in a democracy and the Anti-Rail on Richmond Coalition has as much right to make our feelings known as the Pro-rail side. If you have a problem with that too bad.

Unless of course the pawn is supported by another piece, like a Congressman . . . so it is just a matter of time until it turns to CHECKMATE!.

Perhaps you could select a better choice of words than to call what i'm saying about Progress "a bunch of crap". Thats how flames get started so, i'm not going there with you, at least not today.

Be that as it may, The Anti-Rail coalition has their rights, but you guys don't own this city. You guys have just been the most successful in getting your voice out and getting something done about it, even if its not in the best interest of the whole city.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really. Where? The US is not a Democracy.

Sorry you feel that way . . . but if you aren't part of the solution . . . . . . you know the rest

If you two (TheNiche AftonAg) don't have anything else to add to this discussion, other than your pissing contest, may I suggest you pm each other, and spare the rest of us who want to focus on substantive issues affecting the line. Thanks in advance.

I must have missed the post where someone died and made you the moderator . . . But I appreciate, and will try to honor your request to stay on topic. But only because you asked so nicely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps you could select a better choice of words than to call what i'm saying about Progress "a bunch of crap". Thats how flames get started so, i'm not going there with you, at least not today.

Be that as it may, The Anti-Rail coalition has their rights, but you guys don't own this city. You guys have just been the most successful in getting your voice out and getting something done about it, even if its not in the best interest of the whole city.

Perhaps, but simply because you call something progress does not mean it translates to progress to everyone else in the city as progress. From my standpoint adding a toy train on Richmond to move people from UH to Richmond & 610 is hardly progress in solving the traffic problems on the freeways.

As for owning the city you are incorrect, as taxpayers we do have ownership in this city and all of its infrastructure, just like you. IN YOUR OPINION what we are doing isn't in the best interest of the WHOLE city . . . IN OUR OPINION what you want to do isn't in the best interest of the WHOLE city.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry you feel that way . . . but if you aren't part of the solution . . . . . . you know the rest

I must have missed the post where someone died and made you the moderator . . . But I appreciate, and will try to honor your request to stay on topic. But only because you asked so nicely.

i think i speak for quite a few members when i say, shut it. i'm just refering to the snide and clever remarks that are being exchanged.

don't make me call daddy.

have a good contributing discussion or zip it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry you feel that way . . . but if you aren't part of the solution . . . . . . you know the rest

Doesn't matter how I feel it is simply a fact. We are a representitive republic not a democracy. Maybe I'm nit-picking but get your facts straight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


All of the HAIF
None of the ads!
HAIF+
Just
$5!


×
×
  • Create New...