METRORail University Line

[ricco67]

Ricco -

it seems like just yesterday we agreed to disagree - so this makes twice??? LOL

we've agreed to disagree, but that doesn't mean, we can't agree on the agreeable. Agree?

The point is, I'm always of an open mind in a debate and simply don't poo-poo it for the sake of poo-pooing it.

Sorry HW6.

If you look at my other posts, you could see how I'm not against some of the projects relevent to my areas, but am for AND against a variety of projects around the city as well.

My world doesn't revolve around my neighborhood and workplace, we're all interconnected, whether or not you like it.

that being said, let's try not to get too off track...so to speak.

BTW: is there a "main line" or "red line" discussion forum? I was unable to find one in a search.

[AftonAg]

I just want progress, something, we wasted so much more money on these special committees, investigations, and meetings, all of which discuss something that essentially is really good for the city.

They use the excuse they lack funding to make LRT and use BRT, when I am sure if people would not cause so many delays and extra work, (which cost extra $$$ not in the original scope, but has to come from somewhere), funding for LRT would not be an issue.

Well said Puma, and while I agree that rail would be good for Houston, I don't agree that Light rail is the answer, I think Commuter rail is a better solution to removing cars from the freeways. Obviously there are many people that don't think running light rail on Richmond is the solution, and as METRO moves further with that plan I think that someone on Lower Richmond will initiate a lawsuit, burning more tax dollars, and more time. Regarding your second paragraph I am a little surprised that you are advocating a "just shut up and let them do what they want" attitude regarding a non-elected government entity. Sorry, but that just isn't the American way is it? Our Democracy depends on the voters to speak out when the government does or attempts to do something that we are against. I may not agree with your opinion, but I will fight to death for your right to express it.

[bkjones98]

I don't care where the rail goes as long as it is built,

b/c Houston is ephemeral and can change overnight.

Whichever plan is finally built, the line must, at the very minimum, travel past Greenway Plaza. I can't imagine choosing the plans that doesn't. I don't remember specifically each of the plans, but I think not traveling down to Richmond and Wesleyan would be a mistake. As I recall we have discussed that multi-use building going up where the old HISD complex used to be. That development would be a significant boost to ridership and for further development of the area (I would like to be able to take the train to the movies).

I don't intend to start another tirade, but why do the few home owners that live on Richmond hate the Rail passing by their lot? Most of those houses are worth less than the ground their built on. Not to mention the fact that Richmond in that area is as super busy, and I would imagine that noise and traffic adversely affect their property value. While the construction would certainly be a nuisance, I think that the homeowners are being too shortsighted.

[ricco67]

Whichever plan is finally built, the line must, at the very minimum, travel past Greenway Plaza. I can't imagine choosing the plans that doesn't. I don't remember specifically each of the plans, but I think not traveling down to Richmond and Wesleyan would be a mistake. As I recall we have discussed that multi-use building going up where the old HISD complex used to be. That development would be a significant boost to ridership and for further development of the area (I would like to be able to take the train to the movies).

I don't intend to start another tirade, but why do the few home owners that live on Richmond hate the Rail passing by their lot? Most of those houses are worth less than the ground their built on. Not to mention the fact that Richmond in that area is as super busy, and I would imagine that noise and traffic adversely affect their property value. While the construction would certainly be a nuisance, I think that the homeowners are being too shortsighted.

Hear that sound?

That's EVERY user on this system groaning.

[musicman]

I just want progress, something, we wasted so much more money on these special committees, investigations, and meetings, all of which discuss something that essentially is really good for the city.

The route should have been studied before the election therefore all of the concerns would have been flushed out before.

[TheNiche]

The route should have been studied before the election therefore all of the concerns would have been flushed out before.

If they'd done that, and there wouldn't have been sufficient ambiguity about the details, the measure never would've passed.

[lockmat]

If they'd done that, and there wouldn't have been sufficient ambiguity about the details, the measure never would've passed.

Plus, would that even be a good investment if they did the research and then it got voted down? I don't know, just askin.

publictransportation.org says Galveston has Light Rail. They do?

http://www.publictransportation.org/pdf/light_rail_maps.pdf

[musicman]

If they'd done that, and there wouldn't have been sufficient ambiguity about the details, the measure never would've passed.

Well...I thought about putting that but then felt best to leave it out. But i do agree.

[TheNiche]

Plus, would that even be a good investment if they did the research and then it got voted down? I don't know, just askin.

publictransportation.org says Galveston has Light Rail. They do?

http://www.publictransportation.org/pdf/light_rail_maps.pdf

Yes, although it doesn't look much like ours. They were expanding their system last time I was visiting.

[musicman]

Plus, would that even be a good investment if they did the research and then it got voted down? I don't know, just askin.

Yes it is always better to have a definite plan rather that keeping your fingers crossed that it will work itself out.

[lockmat]

Yes it is always better to have a definite plan rather that keeping your fingers crossed that it will work itself out.

It's gonna work out somehow. If we don't see the final product in the next couple years or if we have to wait for it to happen in ten, it will happen. The plan will be built before the start of the project, so I don't see why it really matters, especially when you take into account what Niche said a couple posts up about it needing to be ambiguous. So there's no keeping your fingers crossed, they'll find the best solutions.

[TheNiche]

It's gonna work out somehow. If we don't see the final product in the next couple years or if we have to wait for it to happen in ten, it will happen. The plan will be built before the start of the project, so I don't see why it really matters, especially when you take into account what Niche said a couple posts up about it needing to be ambiguous. So there's no keeping your fingers crossed, they'll find the best solutions.

You're right that it'll happen, but nobody ever said that they'll find the best solutions. On the contrary, I fully expect them to screw it up, one way or the other.

[ricco67]

what I might find funny is that as Richmond (eventually, like most streets in that area) there might be a good chance that Richmond might be a major LRT corridor. While the alignment might start up Edloe or another street, Richmond would eventually be built. the thing is the corridor would be so busy they won't be able to share platforms and might actually parallel the westpark/richmond alignment and might run into an express to downtown on a seperate ROW or take up it's own a couple of lanes.

again, maybe 10-20 years into the future.

[lockmat]

You're right that it'll happen, but nobody ever said that they'll find the best solutions. On the contrary, I fully expect them to screw it up, one way or the other.

But Niche, will the market not shift to work with it, even if they don't find the best solution? I wouldn't expect them to totally screw it up. Even if it doesn't fit exactly to our likings, I doubt it will be that far off.

[musicman]

But Niche, will the market not shift to work with it, even if they don't find the best solution? I wouldn't expect them to totally screw it up. Even if it doesn't fit exactly to our likings, I doubt it will be that far off.

This route will have less ridership due to the inability of METRO to cancel as many nearby bus routes. It just starts to hit home on whether the expenditure is worth it based on the number of NEW riders. As to who determines if it is "that far off," well as this thread shows, everyone has an opinion.

[TheNiche]

But Niche, will the market not shift to work with it, even if they don't find the best solution? I wouldn't expect them to totally screw it up. Even if it doesn't fit exactly to our likings, I doubt it will be that far off.

It isn't that even a poorly-implemented LRT line won't have any impact, it is that it could've had more. And the market can't just create spots like the one in between Westpark and the SW Freeway. That'd be golden dirt.

Forgive me. I can't stand the certain and impending suboptimality. Especially when I'm paying for any part of it and it costs hundreds of millions of dollars.

[TxDave]

Sorry, I am an occasional visitor and this is a VERY active thread and hard to keep up with.

It sounds like the University line will be going down the Westpark corridor rather than Richmond. Is this a final decision?

[musicman]

Sorry, I am an occasional visitor and this is a VERY active thread and hard to keep up with.

It sounds like the University line will be going down the Westpark corridor rather than Richmond. Is this a final decision?

No decision has been made.

[lockmat]

Forgive me. I can't stand the certain and impending suboptimality. Especially when I'm paying for any part of it and it costs hundreds of millions of dollars.

I can understand. I'm sure there are facts and figures to show which is the best route. But hey, maybe there's a 'diamond in the rough' and even if it doesn't go where most people would like, it will still be very adequate. After all, musicman made a good point when he said everyone has their own point of view. I'm just the kind of guy who tends to give people the benefit of the doubt. I have a feeling that decision making people are trying more to find the best solution than they are the wrong one. Haha, I'm sure somebody will correct me and tell me it's the exact opposite. And sure politics are screwing things up, but they're still working towards a better solution.

[TheNiche]

I can understand. I'm sure there are facts and figures to show which is the best route. But hey, maybe there's a 'diamond in the rough' and even if it doesn't go where most people would like, it will still be very adequate. After all, musicman made a good point when he said everyone has their own point of view. I'm just the kind of guy who tends to give people the benefit of the doubt. I have a feeling that decision making people are trying more to find the best solution than they are the wrong one. Haha, I'm sure somebody will correct me and tell me it's the exact opposite. And sure politics are screwing things up, but they're still working towards a better solution.

I've got lots of background experience with METRO although I can't go into much detail. I don't trust them. They've shown a propensity to be politically manipulive, yet not to take advantage of opportunities presented to them by the private sector.

[lockmat]

I've got lots of background experience with METRO although I can't go into much detail. I don't trust them. They've shown a propensity to be politically manipulive, yet not to take advantage of opportunities presented to them by the private sector.

I understand. Let me ask you a question though. Do you think that's how the people went into METRO or did they change because of the whole political system once in? Can you comment?

Here's to hoping it works out.

[IHB2]

You know, I just glanced at Google Earth to see what you were talking about...it occured to me that the whole strip between the Westpark ROW and the Southwest Freeway is an astoundingly good place for TOD. It runs from about Shepherd to the UP railroad tracks, and the best spots would be between Buffalo Speedway and Weslayan.

Think about it. Those properties would have frontage and visibility on the feeder roads, a major thoroughfare that becomes a toll road connecting to Westchase and the Energy Corridor area, and to top it all off, light rail service to DT, TMC, the universities, the museums, and eventually Uptown. Hotels are a no-brainer, but so is office space, retail, and of course residential.

in my 1st post on this thread (about 2 zillion posts back) I tried to make the point that the primary problem with a Westpark LRT alignment inside of Loop 610 is that it will degrade the general mobility of SW Fwy and Wpark Tollway traffic b/c it will be too close to those major arteries. TOD between Westpark and the 59 feeder would be possible if the existing strip centers and office bldgs were razed, but the fact remains that LRT located on Westpark will NOT enhance general mobility and that means it's a stupid place to put rail.

[TheNiche]

I understand. Let me ask you a question though. Do you think that's how the people went into METRO or did they change because of the whole political system once in? Can you comment?

Here's to hoping it works out.

Hard to say. I can tell you that I'd never work as a rank-and-file employee/contractor for METRO, TXDoT, or other similar organizations because the politicians (both in and outside of the organization) would drive me crazy. The private sector pays just as well or better in many cases and involves less nonsensical hassles or red tape. A distant uncle of mine was asked to do the engineering for part of the Red Line, and he turned them down for the same reason as I stated above.

I'm sure that much of the better-qualified talent knows better, as well...so they probably feed from the bottom of the talent pool.

[TheNiche]

in my 1st post on this thread (about 2 zillion posts back) I tried to make the point that the primary problem with a Westpark LRT alignment inside of Loop 610 is that it will degrade the general mobility of SW Fwy and Wpark Tollway traffic b/c it will be too close to those major arteries. TOD between Westpark and the 59 feeder would be possible if the existing strip centers and office bldgs were razed, but the fact remains that LRT located on Westpark will NOT enhance general mobility and that means it's a stupid place to put rail.

I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. Using the old railroad ROW would ensure that fewer vehicle lanes would be impacted than on Richmond. I still think that crossings over at least Kirby and Buffalo Speedway should be grade-separated, though, whether on Richmond or Westpark. If on Richmond, I think that Shepherd should also be grade-seperated.

What would the cost be, do you think, of putting in an architecturally-significant, enclosed, and air conditioned pedestrian bridge over the SW Freeway from TOD along Westpark to the heart of Greenway Plaza? One with a set of airport-like people-conveyors and glass walls so that drivers would pass under the structure and see human forms zipping laterally at high speed over the freeway? Perhaps a Calatrava design? I just think that that would be the embodiment of coolness.

EDIT: I just glanced at the layout of the area on Google Earth, and I stand by my conclusion. From that one stop, if developed as a major transit center, both transit users and Greenway workers would then have very easy pedestrian access to a nice grocery-anchored shopping center, a big TOD on Westpark, and Greenway Plaza itself. Embodiment of coolness.

[musicman]

in my 1st post on this thread (about 2 zillion posts back) I tried to make the point that the primary problem with a Westpark LRT alignment inside of Loop 610 is that it will degrade the general mobility of SW Fwy and Wpark Tollway traffic b/c it will be too close to those major arteries. TOD between Westpark and the 59 feeder would be possible if the existing strip centers and office bldgs were razed, but the fact remains that LRT located on Westpark will NOT enhance general mobility and that means it's a stupid place to put rail.

The Richmond route will be more of a mobility problem than the Westpark route because lanes will be affected. It will also be interesting to see how many secondary streets which were open across Richmond will now be closed. With Westpark, the secondary streets are not as numerous.

[GovernorAggie]

I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. Using the old railroad ROW would ensure that fewer vehicle lanes would be impacted than on Richmond. I still think that crossings over at least Kirby and Buffalo Speedway should be grade-separated, though, whether on Richmond or Westpark. If on Richmond, I think that Shepherd should also be grade-seperated.

What would the cost be, do you think, of putting in an architecturally-significant, enclosed, and air conditioned pedestrian bridge over the SW Freeway from TOD along Westpark to the heart of Greenway Plaza? One with a set of airport-like people-conveyors and glass walls so that drivers would pass under the structure and see human forms zipping laterally at high speed over the freeway? Perhaps a Calatrava design? I just think that that would be the embodiment of coolness.

EDIT: I just glanced at the layout of the area on Google Earth, and I stand by my conclusion. From that one stop, if developed as a major transit center, both transit users and Greenway workers would then have very easy pedestrian access to a nice grocery-anchored shopping center, a big TOD on Westpark, and Greenway Plaza itself. Embodiment of coolness.

That people mover sounds cool...until those people movers break down in the middle of July and that glass enclosed walkway becomes a sauna. Everyone in here knows that the first time that happens, it will be chalked up to Metro "incompetence" and some other reasons to give the agency more black eyes than it already has.

Truth be told, I'm personally getting fed up with the attitudes along the western leg of the University Line. These people are never satisfied and will never be satisfied. I think the line should be scrapped and let rail be built where people actually want it. Maybe Richmond and Westpark will be better off in 30 years with no rail, and maybe they won't who knows--and by this point, I don't care. Let Elgin, Ennis, and Wheeler take that risk, since they want to. Let the other ocrridors take the risk, since they want to. West Houston can do what they know best, and what they've always done--widen streets and freeways. However, in the event that LRT or whatever is desired on that side of town in 25-35 years, they can take their place behind other lines that are further along in development and maturity. Unfortunately, I think that in the off chance that these people in the West actually want LRT in even 15 years (though highly unlikely), they'll take thir normal attitude and "remind" Metro that the referendum said there'd be LRT to the west by 2025 and manage to shove some other corridor to the back. I think that Houston would be just fine with lines that extend to both airports as well as the East End line and no rail lines along Westpark/University or the Uptown corridor.

You don't build a line somewhere (or try to) because a line said "Westpark"--even though the line looks to not perform well and likely won't get funded. I'd rather no line be built than a dud line.

Who knows, maybe it'll be an experiment of sorts--the development of the eastern half of the Loop vs. the western half of the Loop. Should be interesting to see.

By the way, Metro's board is unelected directly, but I think that the members are put in place by elected officials. So it would seem to me that the actions taken reflect the wishes of the mayor and Judge Eckels and whoever else has members.

[TheNiche]

That people mover sounds cool...until those people movers break down in the middle of July and that glass enclosed walkway becomes a sauna. Everyone in here knows that the first time that happens, it will be chalked up to Metro "incompetence" and some other reasons to give the agency more black eyes than it already has.

Then let METRO build it down Westpark and contribute some amount of capital to the design and construction of the pedestrian people-moving bridge in cooperation with the major owners of Greenway Plaza buildings...I think majority ownership is still Crescent, although they'd divested part of their Houston portfolio over the past couple of years, so I'm not sure. Anyway, by privatizing ownership and operation of the bridge, METRO can avoid that bit of minor negative publicity.

Truth be told, I'm personally getting fed up with the attitudes along the western leg of the University Line. These people are never satisfied and will never be satisfied. I think the line should be scrapped and let rail be built where people actually want it. Maybe Richmond and Westpark will be better off in 30 years with no rail, and maybe they won't who knows--and by this point, I don't care. Let Elgin, Ennis, and Wheeler take that risk, since they want to. Let the other ocrridors take the risk, since they want to. West Houston can do what they know best, and what they've always done--widen streets and freeways. However, in the event that LRT or whatever is desired on that side of town in 25-35 years, they can take their place behind other lines that are further along in development and maturity. Unfortunately, I think that in the off chance that these people in the West actually want LRT in even 15 years (though highly unlikely), they'll take thir normal attitude and "remind" Metro that the referendum said there'd be LRT to the west by 2025 and manage to shove some other corridor to the back. I think that Houston would be just fine with lines that extend to both airports as well as the East End line and no rail lines along Westpark/University or the Uptown corridor.

You don't build a line somewhere (or try to) because a line said "Westpark"--even though the line looks to not perform well and likely won't get funded. I'd rather no line be built than a dud line.

Who knows, maybe it'll be an experiment of sorts--the development of the eastern half of the Loop vs. the western half of the Loop. Should be interesting to see.

The only problem with that philosophy is that in order for any component of the LRT/BRT system to be maximally effective, it absolutely needs to get to Greenway and Uptown. Without getting to all four of the big employment centers, there's much less justification for links to primarily-residential areas in the East End, Near Northside, or 3rd Ward.

[musicman]

You don't build a line somewhere (or try to) because a line said "Westpark"--even though the line looks to not perform well and likely won't get funded. I'd rather no line be built than a dud line.

Unfortunately the election process confused the whole issue. METRO decided to put all issues on the ballot as one issue. so park n ride improvements, hov improvments, expanded bus service AND light rail were placed on the ballot together. IMO they were afraid that light rail on its own would not garner the necessary support.

[ricco67]

Unfortunately the election process confused the whole issue. METRO decided to put all issues on the ballot as one issue. so park n ride improvements, hov improvments, expanded bus service AND light rail were placed on the ballot together. IMO they were afraid that light rail on its own would not garner the necessary support.

I'm inclined to agree.

metrorail was heavily fought against in the initial stage with Delay leading the charge. such a powerful voice would have definately swayed the voted a bit.

I think that after the initial corridors are built out, light Rail will be able to stand on its own two feet better as the benifits become more apparent.

It's very difficult to understand something abstract or theoretical, they'd literally have to have to see it to believe it.

That example has been woefully apparent in some of those on the other side of this issue.

Depending on the alignment, I think a people mover would be ideal. Additionally, if a stop was located ON Richmond between Edloe and Timmons, an optional entrance leading directly to the skybridge would be ideal.

[IHB2]

I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. Using the old railroad ROW would ensure that fewer vehicle lanes would be impacted than on Richmond.

EDIT: I just glanced at the layout of the area on Google Earth, and I stand by my conclusion.

Instead of looking down from space, you need to go stand on Westpark at Wesleyan or Buffalo Spdwy and look at the reality on the ground.

My point has never been about the vehicle lanes taken for rail on Richmond or Westpark, but concerns a far larger problem.

The point is that Westpark and its intersections w/n-s streets inside the loop is too close to the high-capacity freeways and their service roads. Because of the realities of at-grade rail demonstrated by the Red Line, such things as all-stop lights and limited turns at intersections have to be taken into account. Including those variables at intersections only 200 feet from busy freeway offramps and service road intersections w/the raw #s of vehicles that exit/enter 59 and the Wpark Tollway, and use the 4 n-s arteries between the loop and Shepherd, suggests LRT will have an adverse effect on commuter mobility. LRT should have the opposite effect if planned and sited correctly.

METRO planners cited exactly these concerns to me and others last year in discussions about the U Line. Their concerns haven't changed but politics has trumped logic.

also see Christof's blog on ctchouston where he discusses the mobility problems a Westpark alignmnet will likely create. Christof is seriously pro-rail, but he can't find much good to say about Westpark inside the loop.