River Oaks/Upper Kirby Real Estate

[HtownKid]

I was house hunting with my cousin the other day in Memorial an I said I wanted to move in River Oaks(if I could ) She said River Oaks had a lot of racial undertones because they had Deed restrictions until 1986 saying minorities an jewish ppl live there. Is this true? (its hard for me to believe this

[citykid09]

I remember being told that back in the 1060s Muhammad Ali liked Houston and the River Oaks neighborhood so much that he wanted to move there. But all of the white people there did not want him in there neighborhood no matter who he was because he was black.

[eelimon]

I was house hunting with my cousin the other day in Memorial an I said I wanted to move in River Oaks(if I could ) She said River Oaks had a lot of racial undertones because they had Deed restrictions until 1986 saying minorities an jewish ppl live there. Is this true? (its hard for me to believe this

the only reason west university was developed was because Jewish people wanting to live in River Oaks but could not. Therefore, both neighborhoods have long been sought after because the people we lived in them had money. Both neighborhoods have never seen downturns when people exit the neighborhood and the properties decline in value. No most homes in both neighborhood have only appreciated in value.

Edited October 24, 2005 by eelimon

[MarthaG]

Keep in mind that these older neighborhoods established their deed restrictions a long time ago.

I live in Oak Forest. I have no idea if it has been updated since, but 20 years ago when I was (temporarily) involved in the neighborhood politics, I checked out our deed restrictions and found there was a very racial remark included.

[MidtownCoog]

Timbergroe Manor had a similar restriction about colored people not being able to spending the night.

[Jeebus]

Timbergroe Manor had a similar restriction about colored people not being able to spending the night.

..but which color?

[Guest danax]

Keep in mind that these older neighborhoods established their deed restrictions a long time ago.

I live in Oak Forest. I have no idea if it has been updated since, but 20 years ago when I was (temporarily) involved in the neighborhood politics, I checked out our deed restrictions and found there was a very racial remark included.

Same where I live. A lot of the ones written long ago in Houston kept non-whites and, in some cases, Jews, from buying homes there until the Civil Rights Act superceded them, so some might still be included but they are illegal.

I'm guessing that the irony of the Washington Terrace story, where Jews had created their own "River Oaks" since they had been banned from the real one, is that they probably excluded any racial restrictions in their deed restrictions and then ended up leaving en masse when blacks started buying their homes.

[HeightsGuy]

the only reason west university was developed was because Jewish people wanting to live in River Oaks but could not.

Eelimon, I don't think that is true. While nobody will dispute WestU's Tony status now, when it was first built it wasn't always that way. Back in the day it was an area of upper-middle class homes, not really a direct comparison th River Oaks. The Jewish River Oaks you are referring to borders braes bayou west of 288 behind UH. I can't remember the proper name of the area, but there are some beautiful stately mansions tucked away back there.

[dbigtex56]

See related thread here.

[Original Timmy Chan's]

Eelimon, I don't think that is true. While nobody will dispute WestU's Tony status now, when it was first built it wasn't always that way. Back in the day it was an area of upper-middle class homes, not really a direct comparison th River Oaks. The Jewish River Oaks you are referring to borders braes bayou west of 288 behind UH. I can't remember the proper name of the area, but there are some beautiful stately mansions tucked away back there.

You're talking about Riverside Terrace...I know the Weingartens were one of the wealthy families that lived there. They recently sold a piece of land near MacGregor and 288 to UT-Health Science Center, I believe.

Riverside Terrace is full of beautiful old homes. It always kills me to hear ignorant people talk about my alma mater, UH, being in a "bad part of town". Sure, there is public housing a few blocks from UH on Alabama (Cuney Homes), but there are also million-dollar mansions just as close by. You can't say that Riverside Terrace is a "bad area". Maybe it has something to do with the fact that a lot of Riverside Terrace is home to affluent blacks?

[HeightsGuy]

Ah, yes, Riverside Terrace. Here is exhibit #1. A John F. Staub Georgian Revival for sale:

Staub House for sale

If I had the money, I would take this gem of a house any day of the week.

[jm1fd]

She said River Oaks had a lot of racial undertones because they had Deed restrictions until 1986 saying minorities an jewish ppl live there. Is this true? (its hard for me to believe this

Lots of old subdivisions had deed restrictions prohibiting black people from living there. Don't know about Jews, but I do know that the Jews had their own version of River Oaks called Riverside Terrace.

[HtownKid]

I'm sorry Im not a fan of that UH neighborhood even though nice homes are in it they are sort of ghetto mansions some are so worn down I couldnt imagine building a new mansion or mcmansion in the neighborhood with some many other desirable choices in the Houston metro.

Edited October 24, 2005 by HtownKid

[MidtownCoog]

It's good enough for Shelia Jackon Lee.

And who really cares if you are not fan of that hood?

And just how far removed from reality are you not realize that blacks and Jews were discriminated against?

Are you really that naive?

Oy vey!

Edited October 24, 2005 by MidtownCoog

[eelimon]

I'm sorry Im not a fan of that UH neighborhood even though nice homes are in it they are sort of ghetto mansions some are so worn down I could imagine building a mansion or mcmansion in the neighborhood with some many other desirable choices in the Houston metro.

It that kind of attitude that makes some neighborhoods redevelopments and low price a well kept secret. before I mean long before the heights was as popular as it is now some people said the same thing about redeveloping it, granted there are few if any mansion there but when the secret was let out; price sky-rocketed. I am a firm believer that all neighborhood inside the 610 loop will be revitalized to a point that we they all could be called gentrified

Edited October 24, 2005 by eelimon

[RedScare]

It's good enough for Shelia Jackon Lee.

And who really cares if you are fan of that hood?

And just how far removed from reality are you not realize that blacks and Jews were discriminated against?

Are you really that naive?

Oy vey!

No kidding!

Hell, they are STILL discriminated against. Most people just don't put it in writing in their deeds anymore.

BTW, ghetto mansions? Hardly.

[GoAtomic]

You're talking about Riverside Terrace... Riverside Terrace is full of beautiful old homes.

Riverside Terrace has some of the most jaw dropping, ORIGINAL early modernistic homes in Houston. Although I'm a native to Houston, I just drove through for the first time about 6 months ago, and it was a real treat.

At 4000-5000 sq. ft, these were very large houses for the time (most built pre-1955), and to me anyway, most have a very strong FLW Usonian influence, with a little Prarie school thrown in. I'm surprised there hasn't been more press surrounding the neighborhood in the past, although one of these homes, designed by Lucian Hood, has been published in a recent ranch house book. Some are in poor condition, rotting wood, etc, but still they are amazingly intact for their age and design.

My father, who is also a native Houstonian, recalls that Riverside Terrace was built mostly by wealthy Jewish professionals, in response to being restricted out of River Oaks. He also said that these folks began leaving en masse for Meyerland, shortly after it was developed in the mid 50's, and possibly for the reasons mentioned previously in this post. Interesting (and probably not coincidental) that they both contain some of Houston's most notable, original modern architecture.

[HeightsGuy]

I couldnt imagine building a new mansion or mcmansion in the neighborhood

I'm so glad you can't imagine that. But, are you saying it would be OK to demo a John F. Staub for a perry-inspired mcmansion??????

GoAtomic,

have you seen this beauty? :

3602 E PARKWOOD DR

[citykid09]

I remember being told that back in the 1060s Muhammad Ali liked Houston and the River Oaks neighborhood so much that he wanted to move there. But all of the white people there did not want him in there neighborhood no matter who he was because he was black.

Am I the only one that heard this?

[gnu]

For a history on Riverside you need to see if you can view the documentary This is our home, It is not for sale. Talks about racism, white/jewish flight, and the exploitation by realtors and developers. Made in the late 80's, it is still very much relevant today.

It has been on TV before and either Rice or the MFA have screened it recently.

[brucesw]

For a history on Riverside you need to see if you can view the documentary This is our home, It is not for sale. Talks about racism, white/jewish flight, and the exploitation by realtors and developers. Made in the late 80's, it is still very much relevant today.

It has been on TV before and either Rice or the MFA have screened it recently.

Produced by KUHT but for some reason not available for sale on their website and not listed at HPL either.

I was amazed when watching it the names of all the well-known Houston families - civic, cultural, business leaders - that had lived in Riverside before the turnover and then it became the home to Black business, cultural, and civic leaders.

[rps324]

River Oaks, along with most subdivisions developed from the 50's and back, had discriminatory restrictions along racial lines, and the restrictions sometimes included Jews. Unfortunately it was an ugly practice that was not limited to River Oaks. Fair Housing ruled that out in 1968.

As for Muhammed Ali trying to buy in River Oaks and being turned away, I somehow doubt it. I would think that if he didn't buy in there, it was ultimately his choice. I can't imagine that he would be intimidated out of it if it was something he wanted to do. I don't think he would be easy to intimidate. I remember when it was going on because there was something on the news about him being the first African American to buy in River Oaks at the time. Apparently that classified as news at the time. If I remember right, it was the mid-century modern style house on Willowick that was eventually demolished in later years, or stripped down to a few beams & redone by Tilman and turned into another stucco villa affair.

Back to Riverside, it has some incredible homes by architects like Joseph Finger, Birdsall Briscoe, John Staub, Katherine Mott & Bailey Swenson. Many of whom designed the largest homes in River Oaks and the Museum district. The danger to these homes seems to come from remodelers. Heavy handed remodeling that is not sympathetic to the original designs are rampant. The John Staub hill country style house at MacGregor and Roseneath has been "remodeled" into a poorly proportioned nightmare version of a suburban builder special.

I am sure African American buyers looking in places like River Oaks still experience more subtle forms of discrimination, but Riverside Terrace has it's own spin on the exclusionary practices as well. Depending upon who has the listing, (and who is trying to show), I have found houses that were supposed to have a lock box suddenly don't, & when you try to pick up a key it doesn't work. People who have to meet you at houses to open them suddenly don't show up, etc. The "issues" I have showing in Riverside are disproportionate to other neighborhoods. Could be coincidence but I am of the opinion it is no accident when dealing with some real estate companies and/or agents.

[houstonsemipro]

This is nothing new. If you think River Oaks racist, try living in L.A.

[GoAtomic]

GoAtomic,

have you seen this beauty? :

3602 E PARKWOOD DR

Yes - it was one of the memorable ones that I saw on my last drivethrough. I have a feeling the HAR pics don't do it justice, but the price should deter the builders.

I think the Lucian Hood house that I mentioned is on Parkwood, too ... on a corner right next to the 'park' nestled between the two sides of the street, and next door to a River Oaks-style Greek traditional.

[Watchful]

I'm so glad you can't imagine that. But, are you saying it would be OK to demo a John F. Staub for a perry-inspired mcmansion??????

GoAtomic,

have you seen this beauty? :

3602 E PARKWOOD DR

Parkwood Dr. is one of the most beautiful residential streets in the city.

[gnu]

There is a synopsis of what happened to Riverside Terrace in Slotboom's Houston Freeways book - relevant to the construction of the South Freeway, it starts on Pg 184.

http://www.houstonfreeways.com/ebook/South_Freeway_72ppi.pdf

Considering the Muhammed Ali/River Oaks story, this section also discusses, Jack Caesar, the first black to buy into Riverside Terrace.

I believe that if Ali wanted to live in River Oaks, he would live in River Oaks, just from his character. I think he would be sure and move there if someone told him he couldn't.

[citykid09]

So were the white people that moved out (because of the blacks) Jewish?

Edited October 25, 2005 by citykid09

[Jeebus]

So where the whites that where moving out because of the blacks Jewish?

The grammar and spelling of this question gives me a headache.

[MidtownCoog]

The troubled started when....

[citykid09]

The grammar and spelling of this question gives me a headache.

For some reason when I am typing, I always type where when I mean to type were.

[gnu]

The troubled started when....

I guess that's better than a stock photo of Sammy Davis, Jr.

[MidtownCoog]

Speaking of which, there are a couple of old Synagoes near by.

Even part of HCC was a temple.

[houstonsemipro]

For some reason when I am typing, I always type where when I mean to type were.

Does it matter online? It's not like you doing a thesis paper for English. People know what you meant, if they don't they dumbfounded.

[TJones]

I just don't know that River Oaks' racism is a dirty little secret. I think it is pretty much a well known fact that their is alot of "old money" in river Oaks. The new money that is in there is few and far between, and the older folks in there that have had those houses in the family for years and years, more than likely, and are very choosy about who they are going to let move in to their great grandfather's house. i.e. another anglo-saxon, well to do, family. George and Martha aren't going to sell to the new Death row recording artist, to turn their 80 yr. old mansion into "Ghettofabulous !" It is just the way of the world. Sad, but true. This is just an opinion, I think I have a pretty open mind, and do not have tunnelvision of how our society has shaped itself.

Edited October 25, 2005 by TJones

[TJones]

The troubled started when....

The second gentleman on the right looks little like Matis Yahu, without the big beard.

[eelimon]

For some reason when I am typing, I always type where when I mean to type were.

Google needs a grammar check in addition to its spell check

So what is the word on Hispanics; were they allowed to live in River Oaks? Or were they just allowed to live on the East End and Spring Branch and The Heights?

What neighborhood in Houston is considered to be exclusively for the rich Hispanic folk?

Edited October 25, 2005 by eelimon

[citykid09]

What neighborhood in Houston is considered to be exclusively for the rich Asian folk?

[TJones]

Ok, so, we are talking 50's and 60's here, right?

Hispanic: Heights and Pasadena

Asian: didn't really come into play until the 80's and they took over Sharpstown and Beechnut area.

Blacks: Macgregor & 288 over by TSU.

Jewish: Meyerland & West U.

Caucasian: River Oaks, Memorial

Edited October 25, 2005 by TJones

[Jeebus]

Does it matter online? It's not like you doing a thesis paper for English. People know what you meant, if they don't they dumbfounded.

Yes, "we dumbfounded" [sic] by the inherent disregard towards decent grammar. I can forgive bad spelling - but for Christ's sake read what you type before you click "add reply". This type of behavior is no different than that of "think before you speak". You'd be amazed how few arguements you get into that way.

Don't be afraid of the "edit post" button - it is your friend. Also, try: www.dictionary.com. It's free for crying out loud! Oh, and if you're an immigrant with poor English - then throw a little "(sp?)" action out there every now and then to let everyone know that you're at least trying and care.

This post is not meant to offend - but rather make aware.

George and Martha aren't going to sell to the new Death row recording artist, to turn their 80 yr. old mansion into "Ghettofabulous !"

Can you blame "George & Martha" for doing so? I know that I would want the same courtesy granted by my neighbors if they were moving out. Its neighborhood preservation.

Name one group of people that would mind a "Death Row" (or similar ilk) recording artist living in their neighborhood? I know I wouldn't want someone who publicly makes money by musically soliciting violence, drug use, alcohol abuse, women abuse, immorality, or finacial irresponsibility.

But hey, that's just me.

Edited October 26, 2005 by Jeebus

[MidtownCoog]

Nobody wants to live near a bunch of bling-blings.

Unless you IZ a bling-bling.

Is lack of couth some bling-bling tradition?

PRINT IT

[TJones]

Tee Hee ! I think almost every post I have on here is probably edited, for the simple fact I either forgot something I wanted to say, or something I saw that someone could take the wrong way, and Lord knows I don't need any Cybertuffs threatening to kick my @$$ on here.

[UrbaNerd]

What neighborhood in Houston is considered to be exclusively for the rich Asian folk?

Well, to some extent, First Colony/Sugar Land. The population is about 25% asian, and mostly very affluent.

[TJones]

Well, to some extent, First Colony/Sugar Land. The population is about 25% asian, and mostly very affluent.

I tend to agree with that, having lived in Sugarland myself for awhile, I think for the most part, that the affluent Sri Lankan or Hindu population seem to have risen quite considerably in Sugarland though.

[GoAtomic]

So what is the word on Hispanics; were they allowed to live in River Oaks? Or were they just allowed to live on the East End and Spring Branch and The Heights?

What neighborhood in Houston is considered to be exclusively for the rich Hispanic folk?

When I was a kid (70's), Spring Branch was THE place to live in Houston if you were a typical middle-class anglo family. Everyone who was there at the time tells me it used to be immaculate and well-kept, on par with the Memorial area but without the attitude, and had great schools. At that time, I don't think there was any Hispanic or Asian influence to speak of. But I do recall visiting a house my dad was painting in the early 80's just off Gessner, and Korean people had just bought the house. The area probably had some suburban flight starting right around then, and then the oil bust in the 80's really sent values plummetting. I also heard it became a HUD zone at some point, which undoubtedly hurt.

I live in Spring Branch now, and it's a weird mix: most businesses cater to either Asian or Hispanic wants (tending toward the lower-income), and the apartment tenants are mostly Hispanic, but I would say that the majority of homeowners are still anglo, with the exception of certain really low-priced neighborhoods. And the schools are still good, much better than HISD in my opinion.

It's sad to me that the corrider areas here have become so ratty (my Houston tax payments definitely are not being spent equally) but the housing stock has held up remarkably well in many of the areas, probably because the houses were so well built. Although I can't fathom that Spring Branch will ever be as pristine as it was when new, I truly believe that it has the potential to become a nice, electic melting pot similar to the Heights, with all races and age groups, family models, etc.

Edited October 27, 2005 by GoAtomic

[eelimon]

When I was a kid (70's), Spring Branch was THE place to live in Houston if you were a typical middle-class anglo family. Everyone who was there at the time tells me it used to be immaculate and well-kept, on par with the Memorial area but without the attitude, and had great schools. At that time, I don't think there was any Hispanic or Asian influence to speak of. But I do recall visiting a house my dad was painting in the early 80's just off Gessner, and Korean people had just bought the house. The area probably had some suburban flight starting right around then, and then the oil bust in the 80's really sent values plummetting. I also heard it became a HUD zone at some point, which undoubtedly hurt.

I live in Spring Branch now, and it's a weird mix: most businesses cater to either Asian or Hispanic wants (tending toward the lower-income), and the apartment tenants are mostly Hispanic, but I would say that the majority of homeowners are still anglo, with the exception of certain really low-priced neighborhoods. And the schools are still good, much better than HISD in my opinion.

It's sad to me that the corrider areas here have become so ratty (my Houston tax payments definitely are not being spent equally) but the housing stock has held up remarkably well in many of the areas, probably because the houses were so well built. Although I can't fathom that Spring Branch will ever be as pristine as it was when new, I truly believe that it has the potential to become a nice, electic melting pot similar to the Heights, with all races and age groups, family models, etc.

I think yes this area is in a down turn and has been since the early 80's but the area is long over due for a renewal and revitalization. I know a few gay people who moved into that area b/c they were priced out of the Montrose and the heights. But the fact it that the area needs good community leadership and a will from the people who are willing to remodel homes. The fact that gay people are moving to the area, in my opinion, will help the area in the long run b/c they are know for revitalizing neighborhoods, because they have a larger disposable income.

Edited October 27, 2005 by eelimon

[Jeebus]

In '94, I considered a River Oaks home priced in the "terrible twos". You could get a small home on a decent street in the low $200,000's at the time. The River Oaks specialist agent suggested I would be happier in West University Place. I had a similar but even more unpleasant experience attempting to see the mod at North Parkwood at Del Rio in Riverside Terrace. The black realtor would not return my calls until I reconfigured my name to sound black. I finally got through but he was really upset and said the house was sold even though it continued to remain on the market for a year. The place was extremely decayed, suffering from massive roof leaks and eroded structure. Almost every house in the area suffers from tremendous neglect and decay. The ones that have been redone have been ruined and have about as much character as a patched up twenty year old mid-grade apartment.

So the street does go both ways.

[VicMan]

And the schools are still good, much better than HISD in my opinion.

HISD is the largest district in Texas, so the school quality in HISD varies heavily. A label applying to the district as a whole oftentimes is not accurate, as there are all kinds of schools (from the good to the bad to the ugly).

As a matter of fact, I want Spring Branch to join Houston ISD. That way Spring Branch kids can go to Houston magnet schools and kids in poorer HISD neighborhoods with bad schools can transfer to Spring Branch.

[N Judah]

So why would a young, intelligent person want to move to Houston to start their career if it meant they would not be able to live in the nicest neighborhood no matter how successful they eventually became?

Edited November 1, 2005 by N Judah

[sevfiv]

umm, money talks, and makes other issues disappear

[nmainguy]

I seem to recall that Ali did buy that sprawling home on Willowick with the backside facing Buffalo Bayou.

It was a big stone low-slung mansion with a guest house. I don't know if he ever lived there or not.

If you're wondering about Jews in RO, the Sakowitz's had a home there and of course Lynn Sakowitz Wyatt and Bobby Sakowitz have lived there. Joan Weingarten Schnitzer Levy [oy vey!] lives on Knollwood.

I think at some point $$ trumped religion.