Proposed Astrodome Hotel

[DJ V Lawrence]

Why is any of this being considered for the Astrodome? It's the ASTRODOME, "The Eighth Wonder of the World". The FIRST of its kind, a HISTORICAL landmark of Houston! It's our claim to fame. It baffles my mind that anyone ever considered demolishing it or even altering it. I dont like the hotel plans.

Ah, from one dj to another

We all agree that the Astrodome is iconic. It's Houston's landmark. Egypt would never consider tearing down the Pyramids, and San Antonio has their Alamo. It's strange that an old stadium is considered an icon for any city, but it's building was an architectural first-of-it's-kind. That's known.

We can't keep it as it is, though. It's way too expensive. As is, there's no money being made, and the previous debt is just increasing by the month because of it's vacancy. The only team looking for a new stadium in Houston is Houston Dynamo, but that requires natural grass, and the dome would still need at least $100 Million for revitalization.

The hotel is the best deal because it would keep the integrity of the outer-structure, and turn Reliant Park into a one-of-a-kind sports mecca. Every NFL stadium would LOVE to have an entertainment option to add to it's future Super Bowl bids, and the Texans sure could use that if they ever want to host one again after all these new stadiums get built.

[Talbot]

If it wasn't for the hotel plans then it probably would most definately be demolished unfortunately.

[arcutech]

If it wasn't for the hotel plans then it probably would most definately be demolished unfortunately.

The hotels that are located near the dome and Reliant currently struggle. Adding more rooms to what is a struggling market doesn't sound like a great idea. And, IMHO, the dome is ugly. I know it has history, etc., but wow, it is an ugly building

[sevfiv]

The hotels that are located near the dome and Reliant currently struggle. Adding more rooms to what is a struggling market doesn't sound like a great idea. And, IMHO, the dome is ugly. I know it has history, etc., but wow, it is an ugly building

i agree with the hotel issue - doesn't sound like a good idea

on the other hand, i like the astrodome - and i especially liked seeing the astros play there!

[Houston19514]

The hotels that are located near the dome and Reliant currently struggle. Adding more rooms to what is a struggling market doesn't sound like a great idea.

Source?

The latest info I have seen shows a 73% occupancy rate for that area of town. Not that bad, and above the average for Houston and for Texas. F

Furthermore, the idea behind a project like the Astrodome hotel is to develop new business, not just further split up the business that is there. I think that concept has been at least partly successful in the case of the Gaylord hotel in DFW. Facilities like these go for large gatherings that want all of their people and functions in one facility (think Red Hat Society conventions, Mary K conventions). None of the hotels currently in the Reliant Park market (or for that matter in the Houston market. with the possible exception of Hilton Americas) are in that business.

Edited January 19, 2007 by Houston19514

[TheNiche]

Furthermore, the idea behind a project like the Astrodome hotel is to develop new business, not just further split up the business that is there. I think that concept has been at least partly successful in the case of the Gaylord hotel in DFW. Facilities like these go for large gatherings that want all of their people and functions in one facility (think Red Hat Society conventions, Mary K conventions). None of the hotels currently in the Reliant Park market (or for that matter in the Houston market. with the possible exception of Hilton Americas) are in that business.

Agreed. The one concern that I'd have is that even the convention hotel market might be tapped out. Got any occupancy or revpar data on the Hilton Americas?

[DJ V Lawrence]

Agreed. The one concern that I'd have is that even the convention hotel market might be tapped out. Got any occupancy or revpar data on the Hilton Americas?

That's a good questionable. But I do think it's safe to say that GRB Convention Center looks a lot more attractive for big conventions in 2009 than it did in 1999. The Hilton Americas, two sports stadiums, and downtown park surrounding it, plus the shopping and entertainment that will also be in close proximity, probably didn't hurt GRB any.

I think the Astrodome Hotel would help Reliant Park. The area surrounding Reliant Park has potential as well so long as Reliant Park stays competitive.

[arcutech]

Source?

The latest info I have seen shows a 73% occupancy rate for that area of town. Not that bad, and above the average for Houston and for Texas. F

Furthermore, the idea behind a project like the Astrodome hotel is to develop new business, not just further split up the business that is there. I think that concept has been at least partly successful in the case of the Gaylord hotel in DFW. Facilities like these go for large gatherings that want all of their people and functions in one facility (think Red Hat Society conventions, Mary K conventions). None of the hotels currently in the Reliant Park market (or for that matter in the Houston market. with the possible exception of Hilton Americas) are in that business.

The idea that building a hotel will in and of itself generate the needed occupancy is a dangerous concept. The idea of hundreds of thousands of sf of convention space is great. However, "if we build it, they will come" doesn't work in the hospitality industry as a rule. You need to build because of demand, not build to create it. My guess is that large conventions are not staying away from that area b/c there isn't a Gaylord hotel in the dome.

If the demand for convention hotel space is so strong, there would have been no reason for the taxpayers of Houston to subsidize construction and development of the Hilton Americas. It is connected to the GRB and still doesn't make positive cash flow.

Only way a hotel goes there is with tremendous public contribution through Hotel Occupancy Tax abatement and rebate. Further, IMHO, the only reason to put anything in the dome is driven by emotion, not economics. That isn't a shot at anyone. Emotion alone may be enough i suppose....

[Houston19514]

The idea that building a hotel will in and of itself generate the needed occupancy is a dangerous concept. The idea of hundreds of thousands of sf of convention space is great. However, "if we build it, they will come" doesn't work in the hospitality industry as a rule. You need to build because of demand, not build to create it. My guess is that large conventions are not staying away from that area b/c there isn't a Gaylord hotel in the dome.

All I can tell you is that Gaylord seems to be pretty darned successful with that "dangerous" concept. Still no source for your claim that Reliant Park area hotels are struggling?

[arcutech]

All I can tell you is that Gaylord seems to be pretty darned successful with that "dangerous" concept. Still no source for your claim that Reliant Park area hotels are struggling?

Success for hotels is determined by much more than occupancy. Your assertion that this alone demonstrates success for a hotel is very telling. Since you seem to want to know more about my claim, I will expand for your benefit.

Convention business is one of the lowest rated fares for a hotel. If you are not the hotel that gets the benefit of also getting the convention space revenue (i.e. you are just tangential in that your rooms are located proximate to the convention space), the rate you get is poor. You do not get the revenue with the space, nor do you get the revenue from food and beverage. This is because those who book convention space book at a greatly reduced rate b/c of the bulk they bring. Just looking at occupancy is not even 1/2 of the story. It is more like 1/10th.

Moreover, convention center business is booked 2-3 years in advance. The obvious response to this fact would be: Great, since construction will likely take that long, they can book business that will be ready to go on Day 1. Again, this would demonstrate a lack of knowledge. Go ask Jordy Tollett how that went on the Hilton. What the City learned (painfully) is that convention planners will not book business until they can put their hands on the facility. They want to "kick the tires" before they book. So, you have a tremendously painful ramp up which lasts this 2-3 years. All the while, the facility built to hold many hundreds, struggles to gain traction and bleeds cash.

What rate are they running? What rate is required to break even? Are they pushing rate?

Hotels would rather sell 1 room for $100, than 100 rooms for $1 each. The cost per occupied room constant is just that: constant. So, if your business is not highly rated, you are still not profitable.

The hotels adjacent to Reliant are dogs. Anyone, and i mean anyone, who knows anything about hotels knows this is true. They are "discount" at best. A Hampton or Courtyard will do great (ask the downtown CY) when it feeds off of a convention center, b/c its cost basis is generally much less. No frills at construction, much less monthly carry. However, the cost of retrofitting the dome, creating what amounts to a HUGE atrium on the interior, will cost a fortune to heat and cool each month, NEVERMIND the cost of developing and constructing a smoke evacuation system capable of creating the air turns necessary to pass code.

Look, if you want to push for a Gaylord in the Dome, then I think it's great. Great for the Dome and great for Houston.

But, please don't delude yourself or anyone else reading this forum into thinking that current market conditions alone merit the construction. It is absolutely not true.

[The New Juniper]

SAN ANTONIO (mysanantonio.com)

[TheNiche]

SAN ANTONIO (mysanantonio.com)

[Houston19514]

Success for hotels is determined by much more than occupancy. Your assertion that this alone demonstrates success for a hotel is very telling. Since you seem to want to know more about my claim, I will expand for your benefit.

Convention business is one of the lowest rated fares for a hotel. If you are not the hotel that gets the benefit of also getting the convention space revenue (i.e. you are just tangential in that your rooms are located proximate to the convention space), the rate you get is poor. You do not get the revenue with the space, nor do you get the revenue from food and beverage. This is because those who book convention space book at a greatly reduced rate b/c of the bulk they bring. Just looking at occupancy is not even 1/2 of the story. It is more like 1/10th.

Moreover, convention center business is booked 2-3 years in advance. The obvious response to this fact would be: Great, since construction will likely take that long, they can book business that will be ready to go on Day 1. Again, this would demonstrate a lack of knowledge. Go ask Jordy Tollett how that went on the Hilton. What the City learned (painfully) is that convention planners will not book business until they can put their hands on the facility. They want to "kick the tires" before they book. So, you have a tremendously painful ramp up which lasts this 2-3 years. All the while, the facility built to hold many hundreds, struggles to gain traction and bleeds cash.

What rate are they running? What rate is required to break even? Are they pushing rate?

Hotels would rather sell 1 room for $100, than 100 rooms for $1 each. The cost per occupied room constant is just that: constant. So, if your business is not highly rated, you are still not profitable.

The hotels adjacent to Reliant are dogs. Anyone, and i mean anyone, who knows anything about hotels knows this is true. They are "discount" at best. A Hampton or Courtyard will do great (ask the downtown CY) when it feeds off of a convention center, b/c its cost basis is generally much less. No frills at construction, much less monthly carry. However, the cost of retrofitting the dome, creating what amounts to a HUGE atrium on the interior, will cost a fortune to heat and cool each month, NEVERMIND the cost of developing and constructing a smoke evacuation system capable of creating the air turns necessary to pass code.

Look, if you want to push for a Gaylord in the Dome, then I think it's great. Great for the Dome and great for Houston.

But, please don't delude yourself or anyone else reading this forum into thinking that current market conditions alone merit the construction. It is absolutely not true.

Pay attention, man. I am quite clearly NOT saying that current market conditions alone merit the construction. In fact, I'm saying quite the opposite; that, in fact, current market conditions are barely relevant to a project like this, because it is a TOTALLY different animal than anything currently being offered in Houston, and the whole concept is to create an entirely new market.

[Subdude]

I understand that they are trying to create a new market, but Arcutech's comments make sense. Does it really make sense for us to be using public funds to support two large convention hotels (Hilton & Astrodome) that are competing against one another? Is Houston really enough of a convention destination to justify all this? If the demand were there then why aren't private hotel developers jumping in?

Second, even if you can get over the issues of demand and competing public subidies, I'm still not sold on the idea that a Gaylord-style hotel makes sense. "Resort" hotels aren't going to be that attractive plopped in the middle of a giant parking lot. At least downtown conventioneers can wander around and see things. Other Gaylord hotels have golf courses and swimming pools. How much interest can they really pack into the shops in the lobby of the proposed dome hotel? There are so many problems with the idea. I'm not convinced it will ever get built.

[houstonsemipro]

I realize y'all talk mostly on the hotel that will be built in the Astrodome. Let's not only look at the hotel, look at the other tenants. Nightclubs, retail, resturants, a band stage, I've heard too they planning on a movie theater as well. A riverboat that will take you do different desinations. Plus, they going to add a parking garage that will sit semi-circle around the Dome, meaning more parking spaces for people going to the Texans games, or other entertainment proposes. Furthermore, look at the Texans games. After the game people could just walk across to the Dome and have a blast.

So, let's not only talk about the hotel industry, because conventions and the hotel just a piece of the puzzle. Talk about wants going to draw people to this entertainment facility in order to stay in those nicely warm expensive rooms.

This will be a new desination for people to attend.

Edited January 20, 2007 by houstonsemipro

[banking214]

I think I will say what many people believe. The Astrodome is an iconic structure that served its purpose and served it well. That being said, it is time for it to be razed. I can't imagine sinking more public funds into a hotel concept for the dome. Houston is not a big enough tourist city nor a convention paradise. As much as I love the Astrodome, I am afraid that my emotions keep me from wanting it torn down. My common sense tells me that it is time for the Astrodome to go.

[musicman]

I think I will say what many people believe. The Astrodome is an iconic structure that served its purpose and served it well. That being said, it is time for it to be razed. I can't imagine sinking more public funds into a hotel concept for the dome. Houston is not a big enough tourist city nor a convention paradise. As much as I love the Astrodome, I am afraid that my emotions keep me from wanting it torn down. My common sense tells me that it is time for the Astrodome to go.

Its design allows for the interior to be removed without affecting the outer structure. I guess this is why a plan for a hotel,etc is even feasible. If at all possible I hope they can revive it somehow.

Edited January 20, 2007 by musicman

[houstonfella]

The Dome needs to stay. Can you imagine the Eifel (spelling?) Tower being raised? Oh, no. Good luck Dome. The memories are etched in my mind forever. Can you see them? Mike Scott; Nolan Ryan; J.R. Oh gosh, let's make something for the structure that changed the way sports are played forever.

[Subdude]

I realize ya'll talk mostly on the hotel that will be built in the Astrodome. Let's not only look at the hotel, look at the other tenants. Nightclubs, retail, resturants, a band stage, I've heard too they planning on a movie theater as well. A riverboat that will take you do different desinations. Plus, they going to add a parking garage that will sit semi-circle around the Dome, meaning more parking spaces for people going to the Texans games, or other entertainment proposes. Furthermore, look at the Texans games. After the game people could just walk across to the Dome and have a blast.

So, let's not only talk about the hotel industry, because conventions and the hotel just a piece of the puzzle. Talk about wants going to draw people to this entertainment facility in order to stay in those nicely warm expensive rooms.

This will be a new desination for people to attend.

The additional attractions would all be within the hotel. I don't really see this as a public destination, just things for the hotel guests to do. Parking is too expensive at the Astrodome lots for people to drive there just to hang out.

The Dome needs to stay. Can you imagine the Eifel (spelling?) Tower being raised? Oh, no. Good luck Dome. The memories are etched in my mind forever. Can you see them? Mike Scott; Nolan Ryan; J.R. Oh gosh, let's make something for the structure that changed the way sports are played forever.

By enclosing the Astrsodome in a giant parking garage they are destroying its architectural heritage regardless.

[houstonfella]

The additional attractions would all be within the hotel. I don't really see this as a public destination, just things for the hotel guests to do. Parking is too expensive at the Astrodome lots for people to drive there just to hang out.

By enclosing the Astrsodome in a giant parking garage they are destroying its architectural heritage regardless.

I agree with you about encasing the Dome with parking which will ruin the concept of the Dome. Don't we have enough parking there already? I mean, I have never had any problems going to Texans games with 71000 crazy people parking there. Perhaps they could build a parking facility underground like Bayou Place. Out of sight, out of mind and it can park many, many cars or am I having problems with my crack pipe? Just kiddin' but I do not like the idea of tampering with the Dome's architectural heritage either.

[bkjones98]

I just have one word: "CASINO"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...and my first emoticon usage: >

[DJ V Lawrence]

I agree with you about encasing the Dome with parking which will ruin the concept of the Dome. Don't we have enough parking there already? I mean, I have never had any problems going to Texans games with 71000 crazy people parking there. Perhaps they could build a parking facility underground like Bayou Place. Out of sight, out of mind and it can park many, many cars or am I having problems with my crack pipe? Just kiddin' but I do not like the idea of tampering with the Dome's architectural heritage either.

U brought up a good point. Say the Astrodome does go through as a hotel. Why can't there be underground parking in Reliant Park? Wasn't part of the issue with the Texans a ramp for parking in the Dome? They could have a few underground event parking places for Reliant Center, the Dome Hotel, and perhaps for the Texans as well under the current parking spaces. And STILL use the surface lots for parking/tailgate parties.

After that, sell the parking spaces across the street from Reliant Stadium to another urban development entrepeneuer to get some or most of the money back for the new parking construction.

Couldn't that work?

[KDubRedRaider]

U brought up a good point. Say the Astrodome does go through as a hotel. Why can't there be underground parking in Reliant Park? Wasn't part of the issue with the Texans a ramp for parking in the Dome? They could have a few underground event parking places for Reliant Center, the Dome Hotel, and perhaps for the Texans as well under the current parking spaces. And STILL use the surface lots for parking/tailgate parties.

After that, sell the parking spaces across the street from Reliant Stadium to another urban development entrepeneuer to get some or most of the money back for the new parking construction.

Couldn't that work?

Wouldn't it be ridiculously expensive to add underground parking at this point?

[DJ V Lawrence]

Wouldn't it be ridiculously expensive to add underground parking at this point?

SOME kind of parking would have to be added if the Astrodome became a hotel. Might as well become conservative with Reliant Park's surface lots...

[Guest Marty]

I just have one word: "CASINO"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...and my first emoticon usage: >

I agree: just imagine the Dome lit up like Las Vegas. >

[Subdude]

Wouldn't it be ridiculously expensive to add underground parking at this point?

Well, when you're talking about ripping out the entire interior of a stadium to build a hotel, and surrounding it with a giant parking garage, "ridiculously expensive" is a relative matter.

[nmainguy]

SOME kind of parking would have to be added if the Astrodome became a hotel. Might as well become conservative with Reliant Park's surface lots...

From the original article:

The 2,100-space, multistory parking garage would wrap around two-thirds of the Astrodome and markedly change the appearance of the facility once dubbed the Eighth Wonder of the World.

[plumber2]

I just talked with an engineer today that says this thing is a go. They are moving people in to Houston to start on the design.

BTW, I was at the Gaylord in Grapevine last year for convention. As a group of us were waiting in line to eat at one of the "Riverwalk" themed restaurants, the waitress asked us if we wanted to sit inside or outside. I looked up to the ceiling as if to ask? huh?

It is a pretty nice place.

[Houstonian in Iraq]

I just talked with an engineer today that says this thing is a go. They are moving people in to Houston to start on the design.

BTW, I was at the Gaylord in Grapevine last year for convention. As a group of us were waiting in line to eat at one of the "Riverwalk" themed restaurants, the waitress asked us if we wanted to sit inside or outside. I looked up to the ceiling as if to ask? huh?

It is a pretty nice place.

Thanks for the update.

Did your friend happend to mention an estimated start and or end date

[T 2 THA C]

I just talked with an engineer today that says this thing is a go. They are moving people in to Houston to start on the design.

Dose this include the ramp from 610? or just the building itself?