Proposed Astrodome Hotel

[Houston19514]

Interesting to read this thread. The Gaylord Texan in Grapevine is doing great business. Many in Dallas don't exactly love the concept, but its just another attraction to add to North Texas tourism. The place itself is excellent and is doing big time convention business. If this happens, worry about your downtown convention center.

Has the Gaylord Texan hurt the Dallas Convention Center?

[TJones]

It would seem to me, that the majority of the people using the hotel would be the ones going to the events at the adjoining stadium ? Surely they can devise a system where folks checking into the hotel get a special permit pass to hang on their cars to come and go as they please. I see no need to build a special ramp for these people. Worst case scenario, use the existing astroworld ramp and add on to merge with 610.

[TheNiche]

You know folks, it just occurred to me that the massive parking lots around the Astrodome and the Astroworld site across the freeway, if joined up, create the potential for a massive redevelopment unlike anything that is even remotely possible in our older gridded neighborhoods, where ownership is too fractured.

This should be viewed as the potential to provide Reliant Stadium, the Harris County Domed Convention Hotel, and the two remaining convention halls with an entertainment/retail/residential district of their very own while simultaneously putting a high density of residents within easy access of an underutilized stop along the Red Line. This kills two subsidy-ladden birds with one well-placed stone...and the Texans would probably go with it even if they had to build parking garages west of the stadium, if only because it'd probably boost ticket sales by providing football enthusiasts with a place to go after the game.

So who benefits:

Texans (more ticket sales, possibility for future Superbowls)

Harris County (land lease)

METRO (more ridership on non-event days)

TMC (more housing for employees, less need for on-site parking)

Employers along Red/University lines

Commuters to Employment Centers along Red/University lines

Tourists (of course)

And who loses:

Downtown and Midtown -- their housing markets get largely cannibalized.

Hotel Operators (especially the larger variety)

On the whole, I'd think that it was worth it.

[Trae]

Whose up for tearing down the GRB by 2010?

[Subdude]

You know folks, it just occurred to me that the massive parking lots around the Astrodome and the Astroworld site across the freeway, if joined up, create the potential for a massive redevelopment unlike anything that is even remotely possible in our older gridded neighborhoods, where ownership is too fractured.

This should be viewed as the potential to provide Reliant Stadium, the Harris County Domed Convention Hotel, and the two remaining convention halls with an entertainment/retail/residential district of their very own while simultaneously putting a high density of residents within easy access of an underutilized stop along the Red Line. This kills two subsidy-ladden birds with one well-placed stone...and the Texans would probably go with it even if they had to build parking garages west of the stadium, if only because it'd probably boost ticket sales by providing football enthusiasts with a place to go after the game.

So who benefits:

Texans (more ticket sales, possibility for future Superbowls)

Harris County (land lease)

METRO (more ridership on non-event days)

TMC (more housing for employees, less need for on-site parking)

Employers along Red/University lines

Commuters to Employment Centers along Red/University lines

Tourists (of course)

And who loses:

Downtown and Midtown -- their housing markets get largely cannibalized.

Hotel Operators (especially the larger variety)

On the whole, I'd think that it was worth it.

Sort of like Houston Pavillions for Reliant Center. It would make a lot of sense for the Astroworld parcel, but my guess is that the county would hate to give up any parking space in the Reliant lots. The benefit would be having some entertainment options for convention visitors, but from the county's viewpoint residential wouldn't provide much contribution to Reliant's profitability.

I see no need to build a special ramp for these people. Worst case scenario, use the existing astroworld ramp and add on to merge with 610.

Wouldn't it be hard to squeeze in another ramp anyway? There are already exits for Kirby and Fannin.

[MidtownCoog]

the Harris County Domed Convention Hotel

More like the Doomed convention hotel.

And who loses:

Downtown and Midtown -- their housing markets get largely cannibalized.

Hotel Operators (especially the larger variety)

And the city of Houston! Don't you know the history of the Hilton?

[TheNiche]

More like the Doomed convention hotel.

And the city of Houston! Don't you know the history of the Hilton?

Yes, I'm aware of the ownership/subsidy situation. What I'm not familiar with is the market data for hotels in the Houston area. I know that they were suffering a couple years back, but things do change.

My understanding is that convention business will really start kicking in during 2007 and 2008 because meeting planners didn't take the expanded GRB and the new Hilton into account until they were well under construction and because conventions are usually planned several years in advance. Perhaps at that point, the market would be able to support the Astroworld concept. I'm not qualified to say this with any certainty, but its food for thought.

[TJones]

Yes, I'm aware of the ownership/subsidy situation. What I'm not familiar with is the market data for hotels in the Houston area. I know that they were suffering a couple years back, but things do change.

My understanding is that convention business will really start kicking in during 2007 and 2008 because meeting planners didn't take the expanded GRB and the new Hilton into account until they were well under construction and because conventions are usually planned several years in advance. Perhaps at that point, the market would be able to support the Astroworld concept. I'm not qualified to say this with any certainty, but its food for thought.

Hmmmm..... I wonder who could be largely responsible for bringing these conventions in ? Red, any thoughts ?

Edited July 21, 2006 by TJones

[bachanon]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm, i wonder?

Edited July 21, 2006 by bachanon

[Montrose1100]

I think that rendering is 2-3 years old.

[H-Town Man]

Falling Water was not built as a tourist attraction, but as a home. It was never intended to generate a tourist draw.

Disney World is buit to generate a tourist draw.

Architecture is created for a user. If the type of user changes, then the building's intent is not completely fulfilled.

Alright. So then how can you compare a town square with a shopping mall, considering people only go to the mall to shop, whereas people go to the town square for court business, public gatherings, visiting monuments, etc.?

The typical Kroger-anchored strip mall is simply the next evolution of the town square

Doesn't make any sense.

Edited July 22, 2006 by H-Town Man

[TheNiche]

Alright. So then how can you compare a town square with a shopping mall, considering people only go to the mall to shop, whereas people go to the town square for court business, public gatherings, visiting monuments, etc.?

Doesn't make any sense.

Easily.

Town squares were typically among the first portions of a town's plat. In the very early days, transportation options were very limited, so uses were mixed and centralized. Retail below office, courthouse or city hall as centerpeice. Anything on the order of a monument would go there because it was the most central, visible, and justifiable place for one to go. And then people became able to move around more efficiently, so the uses seperated and tended to spread out along the main drags (an evolution from the town square). Centrality was no longer necessary and the town square lost its anchors to specialized buildings that better served the needs of tenants. Everything that would normally exist in a small town still existed; just in a more decentralized way.

Comparison made.

[H-Town Man]

Easily.

Town squares were typically among the first portions of a town's plat. In the very early days, transportation options were very limited, so uses were mixed and centralized. Retail below office, courthouse or city hall as centerpeice. Anything on the order of a monument would go there because it was the most central, visible, and justifiable place for one to go. And then people became able to move around more efficiently, so the uses seperated and tended to spread out along the main drags (an evolution from the town square). Centrality was no longer necessary and the town square lost its anchors to specialized buildings that better served the needs of tenants. Everything that would normally exist in a small town still existed; just in a more decentralized way.

Comparison made.

You just compared a decentralized town to a town square. You did not compare a Kroger-anchored shopping center or a shopping mall to a town square.

And in many towns that I know of, all of those uses are still in the town square. More people go to the square every day than any other location.

No one would argue that a decentralized town is less successful from a market perspective. But almost everyone who grew up in, and many who have visited, a successful centralized town with a town square would say that the square offers something that the decentralized town lacks. Maybe the term 'community' comes closest to what that is. These people would recognize the notion that everything can be measured in terms of the market as very crude.

Edited July 22, 2006 by H-Town Man

[tamtagon]

Has the Gaylord Texan hurt the Dallas Convention Center?

That's a hard call to make. Since it opened, Gaylord Texan has been a very successful convention & meeting destination as well as an excursion for area residents. During this time, bookings at the Dallas Convention Center have seen healthy growth as well. The Conv Ctr got a new head honcho and his efforts/innovations have been widely praised. So, any of Dallas Conv Ctr business which moved to Gaylord Texan was replaced.

The Gaylord Texan facility is credited with attracting events for which no Metroplex destination would have been a consideration. Grapevine Lake is a small and pleasant setting, lots of trees and a few hills. It's looking like the area is going to end up with a Lake Resort branding signature. Gaylord Texan is expanding as a consumer destination (although not a mall like the Gaylord mega-complex outside Nashville) and another resort-styled destination hotel has been approved on the lakefront. All things considered, the Gaylord Texan and future Grapevine Lake facilities have expanded consideration of the Metroplex among convention & meeting planners.

This should be viewed as the potential to provide Reliant Stadium, the Harris County Domed Convention Hotel, and the two remaining convention halls with an entertainment/retail/residential district of their very own while simultaneously putting a high density of residents within easy access of an underutilized stop along the Red Line.

If someone could put that deal together, it would probably be a huge success. (daydream: Could the Astrodome ceiling be used as a giant projection screen?) Developing a consumer oriented retail, dining and entertainment complex/promenade directly linking the New Astrodome with the New Stadium would be fantastic.

A somewhat similar situation exists in Arlington, and a billion+ dollar mixed-use consumer development will connect the baseball stadium, new football stadium and amusement park - and it's named Glorypark. What was promised to the folks of Arlington when they agreed to help pay for the baseball stadium is finally making good - now that the folks of Arlington have agreed to help pay for an even more expensive football stadium. Although $800 million in highway improvements are coming to that part of Arlington and should be completed before the Cowboys opening day, the connectivity convenience of off-grade rail service to the destination remains a challenge.

In Atlanta, another similar setting has been very successful for ten years. Centienniel Olympic Park provides the cohesive setting (making up for the lack of a 'masterplan') uniting the baseketball/hockey stadium, football stadium, convention facilities, hotels and significant tourist destinations with the ebb & flow of the city.

Put a resort hotel atmosphere inside the Astrodome (I love the idea) and build mixed-use consumer oriented direct connection to the football stadium and convention facilities. It'll work.

Edited July 22, 2006 by tamtagon

[Trae]

That's a hard call to make. Since it opened, Gaylord Texan has been a very successful convention & meeting destination as well as an excursion for area residents. During this time, bookings at the Dallas Convention Center have seen healthy growth as well. The Conv Ctr got a new head honcho and his efforts/innovations have been widely praised. So, any of Dallas Conv Ctr business which moved to Gaylord Texan was replaced.

The Gaylord Texan facility is credited with attracting events for which no Metroplex destination would have been a consideration. Grapevine Lake is a small and pleasant setting, lots of trees and a few hills. It's looking like the area is going to end up with a Lake Resort branding signature. Gaylord Texan is expanding as a consumer destination (although not a mall like the Gaylord mega-complex outside Nashville) and another resort-styled destination hotel has been approved on the lakefront. All things considered, the Gaylord Texan and future Grapevine Lake facilities have expanded consideration of the Metroplex among convention & meeting planners.

If someone could put that deal together, it would probably be a huge success. (daydream: Could the Astrodome ceiling be used as a giant projection screen?) Developing a consumer oriented retail, dining and entertainment complex/promenade directly linking the New Astrodome with the New Stadium would be fantastic.

A somewhat similar situation exists in Arlington, and a billion+ dollar mixed-use consumer development will connect the baseball stadium, new football stadium and amusement park - and it's named Glorypark. What was promised to the folks of Arlington when they agreed to help pay for the baseball stadium is finally making good - now that the folks of Arlington have agreed to help pay for an even more expensive football stadium. Although $800 million in highway improvements are coming to that part of Arlington and should be completed before the Cowboys opening day, the connectivity convenience of off-grade rail service to the destination remains a challenge.

In Atlanta, another similar setting has been very successful for ten years. Centienniel Olympic Park provides the cohesive setting (making up for the lack of a 'masterplan') uniting the baseketball/hockey stadium, football stadium, convention facilities, hotels and significant tourist destinations with the ebb & flow of the city.

Put a resort hotel atmosphere inside the Astrodome (I love the idea) and build mixed-use consumer oriented direct connection to the football stadium and convention facilities. It'll work.

Great post tamtagon, and I agree with all of it.

[TheNiche]

You just compared a decentralized town to a town square. You did not compare a Kroger-anchored shopping center or a shopping mall to a town square.

And in many towns that I know of, all of those uses are still in the town square. More people go to the square every day than any other location.

No one would argue that a decentralized town is less successful from a market perspective. But almost everyone who grew up in, and many who have visited, a successful centralized town with a town square would say that the square offers something that the decentralized town lacks. Maybe the term 'community' comes closest to what that is. These people would recognize the notion that everything can be measured in terms of the market as very crude.

The Kroger-anchored shopping center is an element to the decentralized town, which is the evolution of the town with the centralized town square. To compare the modern Kroger-anchored strip center with the retail component of a town center is easy. One is less functional than the other, which has adapted to changing technology. Simple as that.

I mean, some people may prefer the town square, but I'd personally just dismiss it as a neo-romanticist tendency. I can't speak for you, but stuff doesn't impress me because its old. It impresses me because it is functional. Sometimes, old stuff is more functional, but sometimes not.

Ultimately, people vote on the issue with their feet (and sometimes the town's coffers). Town squares will be successful when people's interest make them successful. However, the fact that they do not represent an evolution of urban design that is optimally compatible with present and future technologies is disconcerting. What happens when postmodernism paradigm is replaced with its next incarnation? You know it to be inevitable. It would be supremely arrogant to proclaim that what is valued today will be valued for all time.

[DJ V Lawrence]

I think GRB and Reliand Park will both be VERY successful after the Astrodome becomes a hotel. Remember, GRB's about to get the Downtown Park in front of it, and Houston Pavillions not too far aawy, so the building has a lot to offer. Chances of getting big events in Houston are huge now. hell, we may have enough space to host both the DNC and RNC if we wanted to (though that's never gonna happen.)

I think Reliant Park needs two things to become the ultimate powerhouse: The Astrodome Hotel conversion, and the former Astroworld site to become something big, like an urban development or mall or something. I think that pedestrian bridge is still there crossing the highway. Why not utilize it?

[ricco67]

actually, we DID get offered to host the DNC AND RNC a few years back, problem was the Brown declined because we didn't have the resources to do so at the time (we had the Superbowl coming up, as well as the Allstar game and such).

[RedScare]

I mean, some people may prefer the town square, but I'd personally just dismiss it as a neo-romanticist tendency. I can't speak for you, but stuff doesn't impress me because its old. It impresses me because it is functional. Sometimes, old stuff is more functional, but sometimes not.

What a sad way to go through life. Relax. Live a little. Try to enjoy something without looking for the profit motive in it. Really, it's OK. No one will accuse you of being a communist.

[TheNiche]

What a sad way to go through life. Relax. Live a little. Try to enjoy something without looking for the profit motive in it. Really, it's OK. No one will accuse you of being a communist.

Well you may see it that way, but my ability to do almost all of my shopping in a few store saves time and money. I use those saved things to relax more effectively.

[mls1202]

TheNiche, you seem to echo my dad's sentiments on clothing. That's why he only owns Dickey's coveralls. They are economical, easy to put on, and comfortable.

Not to mention ugly.

[TheNiche]

TheNiche, you seem to echo my dad's sentiments on clothing. That's why he only owns Dickey's coveralls. They are economical, easy to put on, and comfortable.

Not to mention ugly.

Why thank you. Its admittedly a peculiar form of hedonism, but it works for me too. Weekends and off-hours are the realm of jeans and a white t-shirt. I'll go damn near anywhere in that simple combination...even nice restaurants. I'll have to look into Dickey's. I've never given them a shot.

I haven't quite done a wedding or funeral in my jeans/t-shirt combo, but I've got an uncle who hasn't worn a pair of non-jean pants since he graduated high school. He's gotta be 60. Self-employed millionaire, of course. At one funeral many years ago, he popped the top to a can of beer during the eulogy (and yes, I'm aware that there's a Blue Collar Comedy Tour joke about this, but he did it long before they joked about it). He couldn't help it; he's from Alabama.

Edited July 24, 2006 by TheNiche

[TheNiche]

I think that pedestrian bridge is still there crossing the highway. Why not utilize it?

Say, does anybody know whether the pedestrian bridge has the structural stregnth to be converted to a vehicular bridge? If so, it would be pretty easy to run a half-cloverleaf from the feeder to the ramp on the Astroworld side. Inexpensive solution that doesn't mar the Texans' aesthetic.

[nmainguy]

At one funeral many years ago, he popped the top to a can of beer during the eulogy

He couldn't help it; he's from Alabama.

Just because you're related to trailer trash doesn't mean you have to emulate the behavior.

My nephew has lived in Mobile for almost 5 years now. He came home for my dad's funeral. No beer can pop-topping was to be seen or heard. I guess your brand of Alabamaism hasn't rubbed off on him yet.

[TheNiche]

Just because you're related to trailer trash doesn't mean you have to emulate the behavior.

My nephew has lived in Mobile for almost 5 years now. He came home for my dad's funeral. No beer can pop-topping was to be seen or heard. I guess your brand of Alabamaism hasn't rubbed off on him yet.

Its not "my" brand. I don't live in Alabama and never have...nor do I intend to. I do admire his independent streak, but I have my limits. Btw, he lives in what can only possibly be described as a compound. Big homes, lots of land, very very private. Millionaires can afford that kind of thing if they so choose. He may be trash (actually, that's a better descriptor of his wife), but he sure as hell ain't living in a trailer.

[nmainguy]

he lives in what can only possibly be described as a compound. Big homes, lots of land, very very private. Millionaires can afford that kind of thing if they so choose. He may be trash (actually, that's a better descriptor of his wife), but he sure as hell ain't living in a trailer.

Thank you for that. Now that I see your idea of what the measure of a man is: one with a big home in a compound that pops beer cans at funerals, I can understand you better.

[ssullivan]

Say, does anybody know whether the pedestrian bridge has the structural stregnth to be converted to a vehicular bridge? If so, it would be pretty easy to run a half-cloverleaf from the feeder to the ramp on the Astroworld side. Inexpensive solution that doesn't mar the Texans' aesthetic.

That overpass was not built as a pedestrian bridge. For most of its life it carried trams between Astroworld and the Astrodome parking lots. It was only when the metal detectors were installed and a new Astroworld entrance area was built at the south end of the overpass that it became a pedestrian only facility.

[nmainguy]

That overpass was not built as a pedestrian bridge. For most of its life it carried trams between Astroworld and the Astrodome parking lots. It was only when the metal detectors were installed and a new Astroworld entrance area was built at the south end of the overpass that it became a pedestrian only facility.

ss wins today's trivia question!

http://www.mikerobinson.net/postcards/10frntgate.JPG

[TheNiche]

Thank you for that. Now that I see your idea of what the measure of a man is: one with a big home in a compound that pops beer cans at funerals, I can understand you better.

After all, it would be a grievous sin to have a sense of admiration for those with the courage to be irreverent and unique...the true characters of the world. That's the only way in which he commands any shred of admiration. In every other respect, he's absolutely the last thing to be admired...but I've gotta give him credit where credit is due.

Now, if I had his kind of money and was in a position to retire early, I'd personally be based in a five-and-a-half-story monolith near Eagle Point in San Leon and also keep an expansive ranch out in the remoteness of Brewster County, but that's just me. Come to think of it, that's about the time that I'd start wearing jeans to funerals, too.

Edited July 24, 2006 by TheNiche

[DJ V Lawrence]

That overpass was not built as a pedestrian bridge. For most of its life it carried trams between Astroworld and the Astrodome parking lots. It was only when the metal detectors were installed and a new Astroworld entrance area was built at the south end of the overpass that it became a pedestrian only facility.

Yo, what's the closest mall to Reliant Park. If there's none close by, would a mall or a Houston Pavllions-style development be successful at the old Astroworld site, and wouldn't that strengthen Reliant Park's name even more (given the Astrodome Hotel goes as planned)?