Proposed Astrodome Hotel

[MidtownCoog]

I can see it now:

"Howdy, y'all. Welcome to Houston! We hope you enjoy your stay at faux-Texas.

Take it easy, relax and soak in fauxness."

[KinkaidAlum]

I am having a hard time getting past the part in the article in which the Texans have an aesthetic objection. I almost pissed myself especially with the classic Red post that follows.

I am all for saving the Dome, but I also have to say I am not diggin the small town Texas Courthouse theme. I can almost see filming Texas Justice live there and maybe even having a hanging tree for good times sake.

Go with the space theme. It is the ASTROdome afterall! I could envision a 1960s space/retro them working really well there. Space Mountain and all.

[houstonmacbro]

Here's a rendering from the Chronicle.

least it would be airconditioned. kinda like those bubble cities you used to see drawn in the 50s/60s.

[Subdude]

HAIF has had issues with this from both the Chron and HBJ. Post a blurb, and then the link.

This is correct.

For a long time I was a big proponent of saving the Astrodome. Now I don't really think so. It's not an issue of whether it has a fake small town or fake modern theme, I just question the need for this kind of hotel to support convention business when our tax dollars are busy paying for the Hilton downtown hotel to support convention business there. The bottom line is that the county is subsidizing competition with the city for conventions, all on the taxpayer's dime. Without having seen the numbers, I suspect the economics for this project are enormously thin, which is why it has taken them years to come up with a redevelopment concept. I can't believe this would do anything more than draw business from the GRB, rather than a lot of new conventions. For a city that isn't considered a big convention destination in the first place, this seems like an odd strategy.

The other thing is that the proposal will wrap most of the dome in a new parking garage. It doesn't seem worth the effort to preserve the dome when the appearance will be radically changed. It would be nice to find an economic use for the Astrodome, but I just don't think it's ever going to happen. As far as I know, no stadium of that size has ever been redeveloped for anything.

[TheNiche]

But Texans officials so far have balked at the proposed ramp, saying they have "aesthetic concerns" about its effect on the appearance of Reliant Park, county-hired consultants said in a report.

You folks take the term "aesthetic concerns" too literally. It has nothing to do with aesthetics in a public sense; its all about stadium visibility. Its business.

I'd personally LOVE to see a flyover ramp that directly connects the parking lot with the freeway. In fact, they could probably get HCTRA to pay for part of it if used it as a toll entrance/exit during games.

EDIT: In fact, if they installed a ramp to Fannin, then they'd be directly serving the TMC commuters, the stadium crowd, and the hotel crowd, and could toll the thing all day long. Build ramps at S. Main and Fannin, and the Sugar Land-to-TMC commuters would support them easily.

Edited July 18, 2006 by TheNiche

[jt16]

I think it could work. It appears that the developers are going after the more "folksy" demographic, soccer moms and nascar dads which have a whole lot more purchasing power than the average haif poster. The "faux" doesn't bother me. When do things become real and faux? Someone explain. Is the small town Texas environment created in the resort not a real environment?

[Subdude]

I think it could work. It appears that the developers are going after the more "folksy" demographic, soccer moms and nascar dads which have a whole lot more purchasing power than the average haif poster. The "faux" doesn't bother me. When do things become real and faux? Someone explain. Is the small town Texas environment created in the resort not a real environment?

Very true. It's a marketing decision, plain and simple. A lot of people are comfortable with safe, controlled environments, be they "real" or "fake." Especially if their in a strange city for a convention and don't have means to get around. It's no different than how Vegas themes its casinos.

[RedScare]

Actually, I think they are going for the convention business, like they said in the article. Plus, it would be HUGE during the Rodeo, what with all the faux cowboys hanging out in the faux Texas town. Seems to me, if they could design the ramp as a faux cattle drive, they'd be all set!

Business conventions love this kind of crap. Just ask wendyps. She stayed at the Gaylord, and never left. Considering all the Gaylord sites are built from the ground up, one that used to be the 8th Wonder would be a pretty good selling point. Not that I would go, but hey, I don't go to business conventions either.

[PureAuteur]

The Dome does NOT need to be torn down, it is a strong reliable structure that can be reused.

And just so you know musicman, it is bad practive to copy and paste the ENTIRE article, no matter if you gave the orignal author credit. HAIF has had issues with this from both the Chron and HBJ. Post a blurb, and then the link.

How can you be supportive of the tear down of the River Oaks Theater, yet you want the Astrodome to remain untouched?

[PureAuteur]

I am looking out my window at a Texas theme.

It's called reality! The real world.

Embrace it!

I think it would great if they went with a real world theme, but I'm not sure the "Southwest Houston" theme would be very popular with the developer's intended clientele. They could make the hotel look like a fire-gutted apartment complex on Bissonett or Fondren. They could recreate the authentic look of a southwest Houston night club storefront, or perhaps a used hubcap store. They could also open up a grill shop where upper middle class white baby boomers will be able to get a true taste of Houston culture by getting some diamonds and gold on their teeth. Then they could also mix in a freeway sign clutter theme, in which the pedestrian walkways are lined on either side with authentic looking billboards and signs, just like you'd see on Interstate 59!

Seriously though, they should build a Houston History Museum inside the dome, which would give tourists and even most non-Houstonian Houston residents a tour of the history of this city, allowing them to see what it was like in every decade since it was founded. They could put so many things on exhibit in one unified way, artifacts which are currently all over the place. Anything salvaged from Astroworld would be an example of things you'd put in this museum.

[Trae]

You folks take the term "aesthetic concerns" too literally. It has nothing to do with aesthetics in a public sense; its all about stadium visibility. Its business.

I'd personally LOVE to see a flyover ramp that directly connects the parking lot with the freeway. In fact, they could probably get HCTRA to pay for part of it if used it as a toll entrance/exit during games.

EDIT: In fact, if they installed a ramp to Fannin, then they'd be directly serving the TMC commuters, the stadium crowd, and the hotel crowd, and could toll the thing all day long. Build ramps at S. Main and Fannin, and the Sugar Land-to-TMC commuters would support them easily.

Is there enough room for an overpass ramp?

[H-Town Man]

WTF?

VelvetJ is Black, Me, sevfiv and MidtownCoog, among others, are White. What does that statement have to do with our collective opinion of this project's hokieness quotient being through the (glass) roof?

I didn't say that everyone who expressed dislike was Latino.

The Gaylord Texan, which has a Texas theme, is very successful. I honestly think that the rural heritage angle will work better than space, if only because it makes for a more pleasant walking and shopping environment. People don't want to shop in a lunar landscape, they want to shop in a town square.

Look at the situation for a moment from an architectural perspective: what public space in Texas has been more successful than the town square, with the courthouse as its focal point, repeated a hundred times across this state?

[KinkaidAlum]

I am worried that the town square will prove to be a fad. In 20 years, they will be as old and tired as a mall and people will start to remember how great "old timey" malls were.

That said, for new growth, I certainly like the town square concept more than a strip mall, a regional mall, or a gated suburban style enclave. Anything that promotes public interaction is fine by me.

Additionally, this isn't some open swath of land in Pearland or Fort Bend County. This is the ASTRODOME.

What's the point of saving it if you pay no attention to the original space theme?

I'd be happier if they just tore it down and built a new "Gaylord" Convention hotel on the site rather than surround the structure with a massive parking garage and make the inside resemble the Riverwalk, Fort Worth, or some other Texas towns.

This is HOUSTON. Tell me where Houston's large public square is located? Can you tell me where our famous Courthouse is located, that people gather around during the 4th of July Parade?

I don't get the point other than Houston happens to be located in Texas.

[TheNiche]

Is there enough room for an overpass ramp?

Plenty...except for the Burger King/Shell's western parking lot. Oh, darn...what a loss.

I don't get the point other than Houston happens to be located in Texas.

I agree with you 100% on this one. Space is unique to our city...courthouses, no.

Space/futuristic themes would be original. Courthouses: a theme park for lawyers.

[J.A.S.O.N.]

My wife and I stayed at the Gaylord about two years ago, and it was very "Texas". There a the huge stained wooden columns, Tex-Mex restaurants, country music, etc..... There is even a faux Alamo in the middle of the atrium I would like for Houston to do something different. I'm not a fan of the stereotypical "Texas" theme either guys. Houston's convention center should play up the NASA and Gulf Coast themes, imo.

If this is anything like the Texan, these are some examples of how the Gaylord is decorated

The Texas flag is EVERYWHERE!

The Texas star furniture

The huge longhorn mural

[H-Town Man]

I am worried that the town square will prove to be a fad. In 20 years, they will be as old and tired as a mall and people will start to remember how great "old timey" malls were.

That said, for new growth, I certainly like the town square concept more than a strip mall, a regional mall, or a gated suburban style enclave. Anything that promotes public interaction is fine by me.

Additionally, this isn't some open swath of land in Pearland or Fort Bend County. This is the ASTRODOME.

What's the point of saving it if you pay no attention to the original space theme?

I'd be happier if they just tore it down and built a new "Gaylord" Convention hotel on the site rather than surround the structure with a massive parking garage and make the inside resemble the Riverwalk, Fort Worth, or some other Texas towns.

This is HOUSTON. Tell me where Houston's large public square is located? Can you tell me where our famous Courthouse is located, that people gather around during the 4th of July Parade?

I don't get the point other than Houston happens to be located in Texas.

Town squares prove to be a fad in twenty years? What are you talking about? They have been around since the 1800's, and have been more successful than any other public space in this state.

The point is that if you are designing an indoor shopping environment, modelling it on a public space that is traditionally successful is a much better idea than anything space themed. Most shopping malls themselves are mild imitations of town streets leading up to a central square (Willowbrook, for example). How exactly would you do a space-themed environment? Would there be a large crater with restaurant seating inside?

I know you folks want this to be about Houston, but you need to understand, Texas has much more brand identity outside of this state than does Houston. Whenever I tell people out of state that I'm from Houston, they say "Oh, Texas!" In college, when my Latin prof went on a trip to Houston (this was Chicago), people would say, "So when are you leaving for Texas?" "How was Texas?"

[KinkaidAlum]

Town squares have been around for a long time. They also fell apart for 3-4 decades as the growth of regional malls, big box stores, and bypass highways KILLED most Texas downtowns. Most historic ones are still DEAD.

Again, I have to ask, where is Houston's historic town square?

When I think of town squares in Texas, I think of Sundance or whatever that place is called in Fort Worth. I think of some North Texas area towns like Waxahachie too.

Where are they in the Gulf Coast region?

Sugar Land, the Woodlands, and soon to be every other planned community unless you consider Galveston's Strand a square.

[TheNiche]

Town squares prove to be a fad in twenty years? What are you talking about? They have been around since the 1800's, and have been more successful than any other public space in this state.

The point is that if you are designing an indoor shopping environment, modelling it on a public space that is traditionally successful is a much better idea than anything space themed. Most shopping malls themselves are mild imitations of town streets leading up to a central square (Willowbrook, for example).

Well, there was a long while when courthouse squares became boarded up, falling into disrepair except for a lonely antique shop. Many such courthouse squares are still in a dismal state. The movement to restore these spaces is a very recent thing...and although it has had a fair bit of success, like Kinkaid, I'm not convinced of its staying power. Indoor malls have, meanwhile fallen out of favor (depite our climate). In a purely rational world, enclosed shopping malls would make for the perfect place to put destination retail...but all is not rational...and that's why I get the sense that this is a pop culture thing that'll cycle in and out.

Btw, if you're trying to compare the food court to a courthouse square, well that's just beyond me. The original indoor mall design was like a dumbell, with two anchors. The design is basically dependent upon the number of anchors and doesn't often intentionally have any centrality.

Besides all this, what's so great about another traditional place? Where's the creativity? Where's the greatness?

How exactly would you do a space-themed environment? Would there be a large crater with restaurant seating inside?

I know you folks want this to be about Houston, but you need to understand, Texas has much more brand identity outside of this state than does Houston. Whenever I tell people out of state that I'm from Houston, they say "Oh, Texas!" In college, when my Latin prof went on a trip to Houston (this was Chicago), people would say, "So when are you leaving for Texas?" "How was Texas?"

A space/futuristic theme need not actually look like a moonscape, so much as it should look sleek and technological. The space program has never so much sought to go and visit the moon for the aesthetic of it, but in order to perpetuate the discovery of new technologies in the process...and that is the only way that one can slice the issue in which it has economically made sense. (Of course, showing up the Russians was important too.)

And it doesn't necessarily have to be space/futuristic-oriented. It can also be energy-oriented. Or it could simply be Houston-oriented, with the interior ring of hotel structures being highrises modeled in the form of Houston's famous highrises and skylines.

Really and truely, it doesn't need a theme (nor do I necessarily want one)...but it does need to be unique, inspired, and truely creative. Even if only implied as a theme, I think that the "futuristic" would foot that bill.

Edited July 19, 2006 by TheNiche

[jmancuso]

now way man...turn the dome into one big strip club.

[ricco67]

now way man...turn the dome into one big strip club.

There you go! get rid of that stupid SOB rule that no one follows (so I heard!)!

While I'm not fond of the EXTERIOR design, they should do something that can be used everyone who uses the complex for conventions (including the rodeo).

Maybe they should just build underground parking to be able to hold more than one event at the same time. This foolishness of not being able to use the dome while a game or rodeo is in town is absolutely insane.

As far as access onto the property goes, I am still undecided as to which would be the best way to resolve that issue.

A flyover directly from 610 initially sounds like a good idea, but there has to be enough room to slow down once they get onto the property. The backups and rear end collisions on the feeder during the events are evidence enough that people simply don't pay attention. A collision on the flyover would totally shut that thing totally down.

[RedScare]

A flyover directly from 610 initially sounds like a good idea, but there has to be enough room to slow down once they get onto the property. The backups and rear end collisions on the feeder during the events are evidence enough that people simply don't pay attention. A collision on the flyover would totally shut that thing totally down.

The ramp is from the FEEDER road, according to the article. The impression I got was that they want hotel guests to be able to reach the parking garage on game days without having to go through the parking lots. That may be aesthetically challenging, but no more so than the Texans themselves.

[ricco67]

my mistake.

same post applies, substitute "610" for "feeder".

it's still going to look ugly, though.

[ldogg]

personally I think both theme ideas being tossed around suck royally... I think the space aspect of this city is way overblown simply because we have very little else to focus on... Houston cannot be identified solely with the Johnson Space Center which isn't even in Houston.... and doing some generic small-town square is just not original at all...

I don't see why this thing can't be more Houston-centric but without having to be painfully obvious.... make it more of a mini-Epcot center but with things relative to Houston.... for example, there could be a section with a few fake oil derricks and buildings/support facilities that would have been typical at the time of Spindletop...

then a section that pays tribute to our shipping heritage with some old style warehouses found on docks and some old style barges in water... you could also toss in some replica old cranes, cotton bales or something for look... let the Disney people figure that out..

you could put in an exhibit of some sort for each of these and then hanging from the cieling of the Dome could be a replica shuttle basically looming over this fake city... mix in with all of this some generic Texas-themed buildings/concepts that tourists would expect and I think you've got a winning combo...

[H-Town Man]

Town squares have been around for a long time. They also fell apart for 3-4 decades as the growth of regional malls, big box stores, and bypass highways KILLED most Texas downtowns. Most historic ones are still DEAD.

Again, I have to ask, where is Houston's historic town square?

When I think of town squares in Texas, I think of Sundance or whatever that place is called in Fort Worth. I think of some North Texas area towns like Waxahachie too.

Where are they in the Gulf Coast region?

Sugar Land, the Woodlands, and soon to be every other planned community unless you consider Galveston's Strand a square.

Wherever there is a county seat in this state, there is usually a courthouse square. Houston has one around its original courthouse, and although retail did not develop there, we also have Market Square.

If you have to think of North Texas to think of towns with town squares, it shows your ignorance. Richmond, Columbus, La Grange, Halletsville, Brenham, Victoria, Fayetteville, Round Top, Gonzales, Bellville, all have town squares that are the historic and civic focal points of their towns. Houston has very strong historical connections with these towns as well - a sizeable number of Houstonians grew up in these towns, and frequently go back to them.

None of these towns are "DEAD," or ever where. What towns that you have experience with do you know of that died?

Ricco... you sound like an expert... what town squares do you know of that are boarded up? Why are you not convinced of the movement's "staying power"?

What is so great about a traditional place? Becauses traditional places are ones that are proven to work. The town square is to Texas as the plaza is to Mexico... both are traditional, time-proven forms that today's planners can take lessons from. Yes, there is plenty of room for creativity in a town square, as there is in a plaza.

And no, I was not thinking of the food court in a mall. Look at the malls around town, and you will find that they basically imitate either a street (smaller malls), or a number of streets leading up to a square of some type. There are of course exceptions, notably the Galleria, which imitates a gallery of shops in Milan.

I cannot explain the belligerence in these posts other than to guess that there are some deeply held prejudices against rural and traditional Texas, for whatever reason.

[ricco67]

I think a small amount of entertainment space should be put in there, but I would imagine that it would be most benificial to the conventioneers if something can be done so it can be adapted for additional exhibition space or something that is seasononal.

One of the chief complaints I heard about OTC was (believe it or not) too much space AND not enough space.

Parking was another issue, but I think it's more along the fault of bad traffic control then improper access.

[RedScare]

I cannot explain the belligerence in these posts other than to guess that there are some deeply held prejudices against rural and traditional Texas, for whatever reason.

I don't think disdain for the viability of a $450 million faux courthouse square, built inside a former domed stadium, indicates deeply held prejudice against rural Texas. It merely indicates an opinion that the proposal lacks originality and style, and further, that it is a poor reuse of the property. It may also indicate a preference for projects that show Houston as a more modern and advanced city, rather than a recreation of something that already exists, as you state, a short drive away.

However, if you wish to interperate our less than enthusiastic endorsement of "Rednecks Under Glass" as some sort of subliminal dislike for empty storefronts surrounding an overbuilt courthouse, I suppose you are entitled.

[Subdude]

This project is supposed to mimic the Gaylord hotels that are in Orlando, Nashville, and Texas. The attraction at Orlando is obvious, but does anyone know if the Nashville and Texas hotels have, or are close to, golf courses or other attractions? They are saying that the point of the redevelopment is a hotel for people who will not leave the site, but I think there are always people who are looking for other activities. Other "resort-style" hotels I've stayed in always have golf or other local activities, as opposed to being enclosed in the middle of a giant parking lot. I just can't figure out the logic behind this proposal.

[KinkaidAlum]

H-Town Man-

My point wasn't that the Gulf Coast region lacks courthouses, county seats, or even grassy squares. Of course towns have these things.

That said, every town you listed also has big box stores, strip malls, and highways that bypass the town center. I have been to every town you listed minus Halletsville and Round Top. None of them have active, vibrant courthouse squares outside of maybe the one weekend a year when a parade rolls through town.

On the other hand, Sundance Square in Fort Worth has done a remarkable job of retaining retail, entertainment, and cultural relevance. Waxahachie and Midlothian and towns like that have also been able to market their "squares" to Hollywood as idyllic film settings.

As for Market Square, blah. I love the place and the potential and think LaCarafe, Warrens, and Market Sq Grill are some of the best places in Houston. Of course, the rest of the square is surrounded by surface parking, a massive parking garage, and homeless folks camped out all day. Sounds almost like what we're planning for the Dome minus the riff raff.

[2112]

Simply because Latino immigrants hungry for an urban lifestyle don't like traditional Texas doesn't mean other people don't. It is a no-brainer that a hotel/convention center in Texas would play up the Texas theme. If you don't like Texas, there are 49 other states.

With all due respect, the Latino community includes those that have been here for 10's of generations, dating back to Spanish land grants in fact. Thus, its culture is just as integral as any other immigrant group. You could even say there is a relatively new hybrid called "TexMex" or "Tejano", which blends the deep Spanish - and later Mexican - history of this area with the other Texas and American institutions that came later. In short, being American or Texan is nothing more than the summations of many different histories and cultures. The very word

[H-Town Man]

With all due respect, the Latino community includes those that have been here for 10's of generations, dating back to Spanish land grants in fact. Thus, its culture is just as integral as any other immigrant group. You could even say there is a relatively new hybrid called "TexMex" or "Tejano", which blends the deep Spanish - and later Mexican - history of this area with the other Texas and American institutions that came later. In short, being American or Texan is nothing more than the summations of many different histories and cultures. The very word