Downtown Retail Market

[GovernorAggie]

Don't know more about HP, but I think that the new energy company will probably just absorb office space or maybe even more likely go to the Energy Corridor (although my hopes are for DT).

[DragonPhish]

I am interested to know how many posting here about what downtown needs to entice new residential actually live downtown. And if you don

[TheNiche]

I am interested to know how many posting here about what downtown needs to entice new residential actually live downtown. And if you don

[MidtownCoog]

Downtown highrise living is not for me. I need at least a patio/small green space.

Some units don't even have balconys.

I'd feel like a cat in a cage.

[Houstonian in Iraq]

I am interested to know how many posting here about what downtown needs to entice new residential actually live downtown. And if you don

[mainvoice]

There is a link that was posted by another member with a downtown retail report conducted for downtown houston. Try to read it if you find it. It appeared to say that demand for retail basically exists now. It of course mentioned that having more residential is definately better, I think that everyone agrees on that.

It mentioned Midtown having app. 13,000 residents and downtown app. 4,000. Does anyone think that perhaps the close proximity of Midtown to Downtown to a certain extent has been perhaps under estimated in terms of its impact on retail demand ? I am wondering why it is so important to separate Downtown from Midtown so much. Midtown seems to be downtown residential side. Also on another note why is it so important to divide 10 blocks along Main into North and South as if they are on different sides of the planet ?

Houston is naturally block specific on its own, but cohesiveness might benefit the entire area.

[TheNiche]

There is a link that was posted by another member with a downtown retail report conducted for downtown houston. Try to read it if you find it. It appeared to say that demand for retail basically exists now. It of course mentioned that having more residential is definately better, I think that everyone agrees on that.

It mentioned Midtown having app. 13,000 residents and downtown app. 4,000. Does anyone think that perhaps the close proximity of Midtown to Downtown to a certain extent has been perhaps under estimated in terms of its impact on retail demand ? I am wondering why it is so important to separate Downtown from Midtown so much. Midtown seems to be downtown residential side. Also on another note why is it so important to divide 10 blocks along Main into North and South as if they are on different sides of the planet ?

Houston is naturally block specific on its own, but cohesiveness might benefit the entire area.

There are several factors at work here:

1) Retailers may have preferences as to the kind of traffic that they pull in (i.e. commuter vs. resident).

2) People have inherent (albeit not always rational) notions of landmarks as either psychological barriers or as express routes.

3) Simple proximics.

4) The official study is done to try and meet the needs of the general population of retailers and other investors. Its more of a marketing tool to set prospective investors on the right general direction. Most professional real estate outfits will conduct their own market study that is specific to their needs when they've narrowed down the list of prospective sites to two or three.

[mainvoice]

There are several factors at work here:

1) Retailers may have preferences as to the kind of traffic that they pull in (i.e. commuter vs. resident).

2) People have inherent (albeit not always rational) notions of landmarks as either psychological barriers or as express routes.

3) Simple proximics.

4) The official study is done to try and meet the needs of the general population of retailers and other investors. Its more of a marketing tool to set prospective investors on the right general direction. Most professional real estate outfits will conduct their own market study that is specific to their needs when they've narrowed down the list of prospective sites to two or three.

Agreed. Do you think the report is accurate ?I have yet to hear anyone else in the forum come forward and say that the time is right for any kind of retail right now. I read on and on about 100's of ideas, which are good but everything seems to be contingent upon conditions which supposedly don't exist and so am not quite sure why they get discussed at times in the first place. When retail does emerge like HP or Saks. it's glazed over like a fluke in discussion or gets categorized into destination locations. I don't really think it matters exactly what kind of retail it is if it makes it here, other than hoping that it will attract more of its kind of retail or other types that might follow. Again, the report seems to state that more demand for retail does exist now. I can't help but think that there is at least some justification for the report saying this other than a sales tool created by paying money. I don't believe that is what it is. I do believe that demand exists w/out even reading it. Does it have enough good information that can be used to draw in retail anway,etc. to downtown...I think downtown can use all it can get at this time ? (All I know about is drycleaning)... It makes me kind of wonder if enough if this type of information is being distributed to those companies and types that might be able to use it in getting downtown on the map and attracting retailers in the first place so that it does perhaps get included more often in this last 2 or 3 process which you mention. Maybe the demand exists because these other factors do exist downtown perhaps in a different way like its proximity to what is called Midtown, which I think is just a downtown neighborhood anyway. Anywhere else in the city considering its proximity it would be called the same area...17,000 residents isn't chump change right ?

[TheNiche]

Agreed. Do you think the report is accurate ?I have yet to hear anyone else in the forum come forward and say that the time is right for any kind of retail right now. I read on and on about 100's of ideas, which are good but everything seems to be contingent upon conditions which supposedly don't exist and so am not quite sure why they get discussed at times in the first place. When retail does emerge like HP or Saks. it's glazed over like a fluke in discussion or gets categorized into destination locations. I don't really think it matters exactly what kind of retail it is if it makes it here, other than hoping that it will attract more of its kind of retail or other types that might follow. Again, the report seems to state that more demand for retail does exist now. I can't help but think that there is at least some justification for the report saying this other than a sales tool created by paying money. I don't believe that is what it is. I do believe that demand exists w/out even reading it. Does it have enough good information that can be used to draw in retail anway,etc. to downtown...I think downtown can use all it can get at this time ? (All I know about is drycleaning)... It makes me kind of wonder if enough if this type of information is being distributed to those companies and types that might be able to use it in getting downtown on the map and attracting retailers in the first place so that it does perhaps get included more often in this last 2 or 3 process which you mention. Maybe the demand exists because these other factors do exist downtown perhaps in a different way like its proximity to what is called Midtown, which I think is just a downtown neighborhood anyway. Anywhere else in the city considering its proximity it would be called the same area...17,000 residents isn't chump change right ?

As to whether the report is accurate, it can be profoundly difficult to say. Their demographic information is almost certainly based upon Census 2000 data in some form, but that is six years old now and doesn't necessarily mirror the true state of things. Fundamentally, when an organization like the Downtown Management District, Central Houston, or the Downtown TIRZ pays for a study that will be used in a marketing capacity, the consultants will very rarely present even the slightest negative picture because they want repeat business when the study needs updating in a few years.

Its hard to say whether the studies are actively distributed to various retailers or whether they end up sitting on a shelf. Sometimes managers of these kinds of organizations just want to tell their boards of directors that they've gone through the motions and made some kind of progress toward a goal, and hiring a consultant is a good way to do that without actually having to expend a great deal of effort.

I think that Midtown's (as well as Chinatown, Near Northside, Montrose, and 4th/6th Wards) success will bolster the argument for retail downtown...however, for the moment it appears that retail is being added to these areas at a rate that is commensurate with the changing demographics. I think that the neighborhood-oriented retail will go there, closer to the new residences and where there is less expensive land.

Even for those that live near Downtown, I think that there is a barrier to getting there effectively. Either someone has to walk a dozen blocks to get there or they have to park there...and I've had a couple of bad experiences with downtown parking.

[Double L]

Use downtown retail yourself...that'll work.

[mainvoice]

As to whether the report is accurate, it can be profoundly difficult to say. Their demographic information is almost certainly based upon Census 2000 data in some form, but that is six years old now and doesn't necessarily mirror the true state of things. Fundamentally, when an organization like the Downtown Management District, Central Houston, or the Downtown TIRZ pays for a study that will be used in a marketing capacity, the consultants will very rarely present even the slightest negative picture because they want repeat business when the study needs updating in a few years.

Its hard to say whether the studies are actively distributed to various retailers or whether they end up sitting on a shelf. Sometimes managers of these kinds of organizations just want to tell their boards of directors that they've gone through the motions and made some kind of progress toward a goal, and hiring a consultant is a good way to do that without actually having to expend a great deal of effort.

I think that Midtown's (as well as Chinatown, Near Northside, Montrose, and 4th/6th Wards) success will bolster the argument for retail downtown...however, for the moment it appears that retail is being added to these areas at a rate that is commensurate with the changing demographics. I think that the neighborhood-oriented retail will go there, closer to the new residences and where there is less expensive land.

Even for those that live near Downtown, I think that there is a barrier to getting there effectively. Either someone has to walk a dozen blocks to get there or they have to park there...and I've had a couple of bad experiences with downtown parking.

Some of the pix that appear in the report seem to be recent. Also the report mentioned Houston Pav. in it and other projects that i don't believe anyone knew about ??

[VelvetJ]

FOR ONCE THE CULTURE BEGINS TO CHANGE TOWARDS A MORE PROGRESSIVE NATURE INVOLVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE ISSUES REGARDING THE CBD -- then so will the attitude toward future investment. Houston simply has to let the world know that we are "READY TO SWING A LITTLE"..........for whether we care to admit this or not -- Dallas has been doing this for decades......and that is why they seem to be so innovative, as well as progressive within their approach to getting things done, as well as staying the course.

DETERMINATION is the key, for we are going to have to be determined to be patient, civilized, as well as sophisticated within our approach......THE NEW DOWNTOWN HOUSTON IS GOING TO HAPPEN! For it is almost like a child awaiting christmas morning.......you know, "the visions of sugarplums routine" -- just keep in mind that the rapid change of a city's culture from one that has for decades moved at the ultra conservative pace of a snail -- to one that is moving and gleaming with a hip-hop rhythm -- is never going to be an easy asset toward mankind -- but an asset nevertheless.......

Metropolitantexan

Thanks for addressing the culture issue. I have often stated Houston seems to have lost it's edge but I suppose what really should be said is Houston has gotten more conservative than even it was 10 years ago and it's quite evident in everything from the lack of innovative ideas to even recent overall building design. The city has progressed but there is a conservative element that seems to have tightened it's grip.

I suppose however those of us that understand WHY Houston SHOULD WANT to show the world we are ready to swing, should raise our voices a little more.

[RedScare]

Thanks for addressing the culture issue. I have often stated Houston seems to have lost it's edge but I suppose what really should be said is Houston has gotten more conservative than even it was 10 years ago and it's quite evident in everything from the lack of innovative ideas to even recent overall building design. The city has progressed but there is a conservative element that seems to have tightened it's grip.

I suppose however those of us that understand WHY Houston SHOULD WANT to show the world we are ready to swing, should raise our voices a little more.

I try to keep my mouth shut about this, since this is not a political thread, but the entire center of the country has gotten more conservative in the last 10 years. Houston is just one of many cities that have grown more conservative. And you are correct, for a more vibrant night scene to break out, takes a little c'est la vie. I don't know that you can get much cooperation from the fundies to let us party a little harder and longer, but Houston is definitely not the hell bent place it was in the 70s and early 80s. There is just this hardcore insistence on following every rule these days. Who knows when we'll lighten up.

[mainvoice]

I think you are on to something (Redscare & VelvetJ). It is as if there is this conservative undertone that has been tightening in CBD. I also notice your talking about the night scene downtown etc., but it sure seems like there is an underlying resistance or a push against it. It is also interesting that it seems like everytime retail is brought up associated with downtown, that so is night life. Is there some kind of rule book being circulated about what is acceptable and what is not ? HP received grant money for its center which will have night life in it, so why isn't more done to attract more nightlife instead of all this other stuff that there doesn't seem to be just an overwhelming bunch of interest in anyway-AT THIS TIME. Essence might be a prime example of what you mentioned to an extent. It is a major event and definately has a direct impact on Downtown. Wasn't it held at Reliant ? Aren't people supposed to want to be able to go out downtown, eat dinner, maybe check into a hotel downtown, and then catch the light rail to Reliant for Essence and then return downwtown ? Yet I have yet to see the Downtown groups created to promote downtown promoting it ? Downtown saw a lot of business from this event. It's as if these Downtown groups are open on the surface about what to embrace and the area desparately could use anything at thist time, but they don't make an effort to embrace events I guess it doesn't really want to ? I wonder who is silently making these types of decisions ? Did you see how much discussion there was on tv day after day about what a wonderful city Houston was during essence, and all the great places to eat and party.(Well, guess what ?-They were talking about downtown ! These downtown groups definately missed a golden opportunity on the promotion boat this time. Downtown seems like a basketball rim with an invisible lid sometimes...throw in this new drinking law,etc. and read in between the lines ?

Edited July 4, 2006 by mainvoice

[mainvoice]

I think you are on to something (Redscare & VelvetJ). It is as if there is this conservative undertone that has been tightening in CBD. I also notice your talking about the night scene downtown etc., but it sure seems like there is an underlying resistance or a push against it. It is also interesting that it seems like everytime retail is brought up associated with downtown, that so is night life. Is there some kind of rule book being circulated about what is acceptable and what is not ? HP received grant money for its center which will have night life in it, so why isn't more done to attract more nightlife instead of all this other stuff that there doesn't seem to be just an overwhelming bunch of interest in anyway-AT THIS TIME. Essence might be a prime example of what you mentioned to an extent. It is a major event and definately has a direct impact on Downtown. Wasn't it held at Reliant ? Aren't people supposed to want to be able to go out downtown, eat dinner, maybe check into a hotel downtown, and then catch the light rail to Reliant for Essence and then return downwtown ? Yet I have yet to see the Downtown groups created to promote downtown promoting it ? Downtown saw a lot of business from this event. It's as if these Downtown groups are open on the surface about what to embrace and the area desparately could use anything at thist time, but they don't make an effort to embrace events I guess it doesn't really want to ? I wonder who is silently making these types of decisions ? Did you see how much discussion there was on tv day after day about what a wonderful city Houston was during essence, and all the great places to eat and party.(Well, guess what ?-They were talking about downtown ! These downtown groups definately missed a golden opportunity on the promotion boat this time. Downtown seems like a basketball rim with an invisible lid sometimes...throw in this new drinking law,etc. and read in between the lines ?

Dig In: Here is the event calendar from Houstondowntown.org where you can learn about the Houston Dynamos playing at venue: other

Events

Look no further, you now can find all the hot and happening events in downtown all in one place. We've got major league sports and world-class performing arts. Search by venue or a particular area of interest. Not sure what you want to do, then check out our great itineraries and Top 20 list!

Search Events by one or more of the Following:

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Venue Alley Theatre Angelika Film Center Buffalo Bayou Engine Room George R. Brown Hobby Center Jones Hall Jones Plaza Market Square Main Event Meridian Minute Maid Park Reliant Stadium Sam Houston Park Sesquicentennial Park Toyota Center Verizon Wireless Theater Warehouse Live Wortham Center Other Interest Art Exhibits Ballet Baseball Basketball Choral Classical Music Comedy Dance Family Entertainment Festivals Film Football Hockey Jazz/Blues Live Music/Concert Multicultural Musicals Opera Outdoor Event Parades Soccer Recreation Soccer Stage Symphony Sports- other Theater- other Other

Houston Astros

July 3, 2006 - July 5, 2006

Venue: Minute Maid Park| Interest: Family Entertainment

Astros vs. Chicago Cubs MORE >

Chevy's Freedom Over Texas 4th of July Celebration

July 4, 2006

Venue: Sam Houston Park| Interest: Family Entertainment, Festivals, Live Music/Concert, Outdoor Event, Recreation

Fun, food, games and music. Headliner is Los Lonely Boys! MORE >

Houston Dynamo

July 4, 2006

Venue: Other| Interest: Soccer

Dynamo vs. Columbus Crew MORE >

Ultimate Tejano Party

July 4, 2006

Venue: Jones Plaza| Interest: Live Music/Concert, Multicultural , Outdoor Event

MORE >

[Houston19514]

I think you are on to something (Redscare & VelvetJ). It is as if there is this conservative undertone that has been tightening in CBD. I also notice your talking about the night scene downtown etc., but it sure seems like there is an underlying resistance or a push against it. It is also interesting that it seems like everytime retail is brought up associated with downtown, that so is night life. Is there some kind of rule book being circulated about what is acceptable and what is not ? HP received grant money for its center which will have night life in it, so why isn't more done to attract more nightlife instead of all this other stuff that there doesn't seem to be just an overwhelming bunch of interest in anyway-AT THIS TIME. Essence might be a prime example of what you mentioned to an extent. It is a major event and definately has a direct impact on Downtown. Wasn't it held at Reliant ? Aren't people supposed to want to be able to go out downtown, eat dinner, maybe check into a hotel downtown, and then catch the light rail to Reliant for Essence and then return downwtown ? Yet I have yet to see the Downtown groups created to promote downtown promoting it ? Downtown saw a lot of business from this event. It's as if these Downtown groups are open on the surface about what to embrace and the area desparately could use anything at thist time, but they don't make an effort to embrace events I guess it doesn't really want to ? I wonder who is silently making these types of decisions ? Did you see how much discussion there was on tv day after day about what a wonderful city Houston was during essence, and all the great places to eat and party.(Well, guess what ?-They were talking about downtown ! These downtown groups definately missed a golden opportunity on the promotion boat this time. Downtown seems like a basketball rim with an invisible lid sometimes...throw in this new drinking law,etc. and read in between the lines ?

What in the name of Sam Houston are you talking about? Most of the "retail' development that has occurred downtown on street level has been all about nightlife, with very little else.

[mainvoice]

What in the name of Sam Houston are you talking about? Most of the "retail' development that has occurred downtown on street level has been all about nightlife, with very little else.

Sorry, I don't understand. What's your point ? Is there something wrong with that ? Please re-read the section.

[Houston19514]

Sorry, I don't understand. What's your point ? Is there something wrong with that ? Please re-read the section.

My point is.... why should efforts be made to attract more nightlife (as you suggested), when that is what has been developed and is being developed WITHOUT any special effort to attract it?

[mainvoice]

My point is.... why should efforts be made to attract more nightlife (as you suggested), when that is what has been developed and is being developed WITHOUT any special effort to attract it?

Yes. That's what I thought your point was, and I guess what I was saying was very simple...WHY SHOULDN'T MORE BE DONE when no offense it really seems to be what does work as you pointed out. Also think there is a big difference between something and doing nothing. Doing nothing or not trying to develop new nightlife to a certain extent I think stagnates what is down there, which drives people to other parts of the city, and as a result what is down there suffers and the crowd that is appealed to deteriorates. If it continues to deteriorate then it makes it that much harder to improve upon the area as a whole because of the element it attracts. In either case, I think it couldn't hurt to be aware of this in my opinion. That wasn't my point. I didn't make this point someone else did earlier and it was expanded on. As a result I was saying that if everyone knew for a year that Essence for example was going to hold their event at Reliant with how many thousand attending (300,000 people ?) then why not capitalize on all of the residual business it was going to bring to the area etc ? It's kind of like wanting it to rain on the 4th of July party at Tinsley park ? Making a decision not to promote the Essence festival when you are going to have it anyway is liking planning the 4th of July event and wishing for rain, because it will hurt the attendance. I am certainly pro other types , but they haven't exactly been beating down the door. Can downtown afford the luxury though as it seems you might be suggesting to selectively ignore certain groups ? From what I can tell so far the most notable tenants to the area are clubs/entertainment at HP .

[mainvoice]

Metro- seems like they were on top of this on their website:

METRORAIL SERVICE EXTENDED FOR ESSENCE FESTIVAL

June 29, 2006

METRO will extend late-night rail service to accommodate riders attending the Essence Festival, Saturday, July 1 – Monday, July 3, at Reliant Park.

Hours as follows:

The last northbound train will depart the Reliant Park platform at 1:50 a.m. (Sunday, Monday and Tuesday morning).

The last southbound train will depart the Reliant Park platform at 2:50 a.m. (Sunday, Monday and Tuesday morning).

Trains will run on 18-minute frequencies.

[KimberlySayWhat]

Channel 11 did a story yesterday evening on retail, some in the downtown area. They briefly mentioned American Apparel.

Video:

http://www.khou.com/sharedcontent/VideoPla...=74704&catId=35

[mainvoice]

I know that I mentioned this already about Essence, but was sad to see this article in the link below dated July 7th which appeared in the Houston Chronicle titled: Missed Opportunity. Especially this section and some others. Again, understood that the city pushed to have this event downtown, but it kind of sounds like the Toyota Center perhaps might not have been large enough to accomodate this. I am sure that Houston will see other major events like this centered at Reliant due to the large attendance that they draw, and would have thought that educating those attending to ride the light rail downtown would be a given after any event, especially these large ones. I think to a certain extent how we get graded in handling these kind of events is going to weigh into decisions made to a certain extent by other events like future SuperBowls, or maybe a WorldCup event which has already been held in Dallas. IN ARTILCE: "When shows finished in the late evening hours, attendees used to New Orleans' all-night party atmosphere poured out onto deserted streets around Reliant Park." "Entertainment districts here are not centralized, as in New Orleans." I think we need to let people know that downtown is a 10 minute ride on light rail away. How much closer can it get ? Why do we have to make it seem like Midtown is so far from Downtown when it's part of Downtown (Combined areas: 13,000 residences), perhaps creating some of this uncertainty retailers feel coming into the area looking for 10,000 residences and that there is not a centralized entertainment district (like the article mentions) when there is with a main artery traveling right into it called "Light Rail".

link:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/4032178.html

[musicman]

Metro- seems like they were on top of this on their website:

METRORAIL SERVICE EXTENDED FOR ESSENCE FESTIVAL

June 29, 2006

METRO will extend late-night rail service to accommodate riders attending the Essence Festival, Saturday, July 1

Edited July 9, 2006 by musicman

[mainvoice]

one complaint i heard was that the frequency should ahve been increased for a few days while the festival was here cause people were waiting quite a while which resulted in an hr ride from downtown to reliant for some transit riders.

That sounds like a real problem. After thinking about this I think that the essence promoters should have taken the initiative in telling people that attended the event about taking lightrail downtown for activities, hotels, etc. There should be a group from the city that makes contact with visiting groups to educate them about lightrail,etc. I am not clear if the city has an organization whos job it is to specifically contact those types of groups using Reliant to tell them about lightrail access, and also involved in trying to also coordinate events between those groups and downtown business to attract them to the downtown area.

[TheNiche]

I think we need to let people know that downtown is a 10 minute ride on light rail away. How much closer can it get ?

The center of Downtown is precisely six miles from the Reliant Park station. If it were only 10 minutes between them, then the average speed of the train (including stops) would have to be 36 miles per hour. The average speed is closer to half that under normal conditions. Tack on a few more minutes of wait time...and a walk of about a quarter- to a half-mile to the final destination...it starts looking bad.

I currently live very close to the Reliant Park station and could drive in a fully air conditioned environment from my parking space in the very back of my condo complex to the GRB and back in about the same time as a one-way trip (inclusive of the wait and walk) covering the same distance.

Edited July 9, 2006 by TheNiche

[musicman]

That sounds like a real problem. After thinking about this I think that the essence promoters should have taken the initiative in telling people that attended the event about taking lightrail downtown for activities, hotels, etc. There should be a group from the city that makes contact with visiting groups to educate them about lightrail,etc. I am not clear if the city has an organization whos job it is to specifically contact those types of groups using Reliant to tell them about lightrail access, and also involved in trying to also coordinate events between those groups and downtown business to attract them to the downtown area.

Everyone knew about the rail, the problem was that the frequency of the trains was not frequent enough. This resulted in long travel times.

[mainvoice]

The center of Downtown is precisely six miles from the Reliant Park station. If it were only 10 minutes between them, then the average speed of the train (including stops) would have to be 36 miles per hour. The average speed is closer to half that under normal conditions. Tack on a few more minutes of wait time...and a walk of about a quarter- to a half-mile to the final destination...it starts looking bad.

I currently live very close to the Reliant Park station and could drive in a fully air conditioned environment from my parking space in the very back of my condo complex to the GRB and back in about the same time as a one-way trip (inclusive of the wait and walk) covering the same distance.

Yes, it is true that downtown is still accessible by cars. At some point you do step in and out of your fully air conditioned environment to inhale some fresh oxygen, tack a few minutes. You can't drive up to every place located downtown, so walking a block here and there is just a good opp. to step out of the vehicle, tack on a few more. Stop to refuel, tack on a few. Talk to folks, tack on a few. I don't think the intent of having the train was for it to be faster than driving your car. I think it could save you an additional parking fee if you rode it in though . In other words, it actually has a utilitarian purpose for a lot of people either attending events, working in the Med Center daily riding in, and those that want to take advantage of it, etc.

[TheNiche]

Yes, it is true that downtown is still accessible by cars. At some point you do step in and out of your fully air conditioned environment to inhale some fresh oxygen, tack a few minutes. You can't drive up to every place located downtown, so walking a block here and there is just a good opp. to step out of the vehicle, tack on a few more. Stop to refuel, tack on a few. Talk to folks, tack on a few. I don't think the intent of having the train was for it to be faster than driving your car. I think it could save you an additional parking fee if you rode it in though . In other words, it actually has a utilitarian purpose for a lot of people either attending events, working in the Med Center daily riding in, and those that want to take advantage of it, etc.

Oxygen? Open the A/C vent.

You're right...I usually can't drive right up to them. But I can get pretty darn close. Its easier to park downtown and walk to the destination than it is to park and walk into a Wal-Mart and shop.

Refuel? I'm not driving an RV. Even with my city mileage, I could make the trip about 20 times without having to refuel...an act which takes less than five minutes. If I've established that a round trip takes about 25 minutes and we're talking about an extra five minutes every twentieth time, well that comes out to a whopping 1% of my total car driving/fueling time.

Talk to folks? Not my style. Screw folks.

The intent of the train was not to be more efficient than a car? You know, when the train was first implemented and they still had a bus route along Main Street, I watched in horror as a train and a bus (which I was behind) started from about the same position...and the bus outran the train...and kept on outrunning it...and outrunning it... So I suppose the point of the train has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency, then? It was all just a gimmick to force riders to talk to one another more frequently? Social engineering sucks.

Sure, it'd save me the parking fee...if the City's downtown parking wasn't free after 6PM.

It may work for commuters...and then probably not really well...but it doesn't work for the folks wanting to go downtown after an event at Reliant Park. They could make better time by taking a car. I know I could.

[musicman]

You know, when the train was first implemented and they still had a bus route along Main Street, I watched in horror as a train and a bus (which I was behind) started from about the same position...and the bus outran the train...and kept on outrunning it...and outrunning it... So I suppose the point of the train has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency, then?

Unfortunately your description is accurate here. This last week METRO was courting representatives from Ottawa to discuss Houston's experience with light rail. I met one of these reps Friday. He asked me my impressions etc. I asked him what METRO was telling him. One of the funniest things was that they told him that if the rail election were held today that more than 70 percent would vote for it. I then told him that it won by the narrowest margin on its second try. He just seem surprised. Some of the other regular riders were also giving him comments and he just couldn't believe what the riders were telling him vs what METRO officials told him.

[RedScare]

Unfortunately your description is accurate here. This last week METRO was courting representatives from Ottawa to discuss Houston's experience with light rail. I met one of these reps Friday. He asked me my impressions etc. I asked him what METRO was telling him. One of the funniest things was that they told him that if the rail election were held today that more than 70 percent would vote for it. I then told him that it won by the narrowest margin on its second try. He just seem surprised. Some of the other regular riders were also giving him comments and he just couldn't believe what the riders were telling him vs what METRO officials told him.

Accurate? You haven't told us anything. And, a vote today, after a successful launch of light rail and a prolonged period of high gas prices, likely would produce a much higher approval than in 2000. METRO may have surveys to support that statement. But, we don't know based on your post.