Camden Midtown: Multifamily At 2303 Louisiana St.

[20sGirl]

I grew up in section-8 housing.  Pretty much from my elementary school years until I was 20 years old, starting out in college.  I didn

[The Great Hizzy!]

Putting in the proper amenities plus the great location between downtown, the Museum District and the Med Center not to mention the high number of townhomes that are going up (and still going up) in other areas of Midtown suggest that apartment complexes in Midtown aren't necessarily fated to be run-down, lower income dwellings. The neighborhood, overall, would need to deteriorate before that, and if that happens, it means that your townhome owners, businesses and so forth have left as well.

If you look at the Gulfton "ghetto", for example, what's really there in terms of amenities that would keep your upward professional there? Transit options? Great restaurants?

None of that.

Meanwhile, Uptown has a pretty good mix of townhomes and apartments that have been there for a couple of decades now because there are amenities in place and its all near a major business center (where people work).

Not saying that Otis's concern isn't valid but when I think about the other factors that are in play for Midtown, I think having chic, eye-catching apartments in a burgeoning area such as Midtown is also an advantage. Not everyone with an urban conscience can afford townhomes, otherwise New York City wouldn't be able to retain its population base in Manhattan and the Near South Side of Chicago may not be seeing the uptick in development and occupation that it's seen over the last six or seven years.

[midtown 4.2]

I live in Midtown . . . just a few blocks East of the "Super Block", and am dismayed by the possibility of yet another large apartment complex going up in the area. Yes, the Ventana & Calais apartments are better alternatives to the vacant lots, but only slightly better! . . .they still have a long, long ways to go. Post Midtown was a step in the right direction, but if I have to live next to an apartment complex, it should be like the one I saw while visiting Pasdadena, CA.

http://www.paseocoloradopasadena.com/

Paseo is also managed by the Post company, but was built above a fantastic outdoor shopping mall.

I've sent e-mail to Camden and the Midtown Management District expressing my concerns. If we don't speak up, developers will continue to build CR*P.

BTW danax, adults enjoy libraries too. In fact, I see more adults than children in libraries.

[Subdude]

I don't think anyone is arguing that there should be no apartments in Midtown, but any neighborhood that is totally dominated by rental units, especially in large blocks like the newer developments, is at risk. The Gulfton Ghetto, which I think was the chic area for young professionals in the 1960s, is the classic Houston example. In any event, Midtown west of San Jacinto may not be not well-suited for heavy townhome or condo development since every north-south street is a major thoroughfare. East of San Jacinto there is less traffic and consequently more townhome development. Maybe over time we will see Midtown east and west of San Jacinto become considered as two distinct neighborhoods.

[houstonsemipro]

Then again people y'all putting houston with other cities. New york has their own style, chicago has their on style, and houston has their own style. Houston is different toward those cities. Houston is in their own world. I don;t see no problems, cause theu building these apartments for a reason. People don't care where they built it at, people still going to spend their money for a place to live. I would. So who cares, be happy midtown getting something. geez. I hate to start a reality estate with y'all.

[KinkaidAlum]

Apartments don't ruin a neighborhood. People who flee because they are too good to live near them do.

[ssullivan]

There's also the possibility that these rental units might eventually be converted to condos, which would stabilize the turnover problem. This has happened here before -- the Renaissance at River Oaks (I think that's the name) on Shepherd just south of San Felipe were rentals owned by Gables when I moved to Houston in 2000. A year or so later they converted to condos. The same thing is happening downtown right now with the St. Germain.

I'm not totally opposed to apartment development, as long as they're well built, which many of the newer properties are, and the management keeps the property up well enough that rents don't start a downward trend. That's when problems start. And I think KinkaidAlum is right. If the rest of the neighborhood around stays stable and people don't perceive a problem with living near one of these complexes, it shouldn't be an issue. I know in my neighborhood, which is situated between Old Braeswood and Braeswood Place, the introduction of apartment complexes to the area ago hasn't been a major problem. There are a couple of complexes here that were built in the 1960s and they are not like what's in the Gulfton Ghetto -- they are still well maintained and occupied by professional people with good jobs. The neighborhood is much more than a few apartment complexes, and I think the comparisons to the Gulfton area are wrong. That neighborhood had nothing but apartments... thousands and thousands and thousands of them. Each of those complexes was much larger in the number of units than any of the ones being built in Midtown. And what was nearby? Not much except for Sharpstown, which never was an expensive, upper end neighborhood, even when it was new. Take a look at the original houses in Sharpstown and around Gulfton versus those in other neighborhoods built at the same time and they are much smaller, with more wood and less brick. I have a hard time seeing townhomes selling in the upper 200s to low 300s turning into a ghetto in the next 20 years. And, maybe apartments priced in a range where young professionals who aren't ready to purchase a home but want to live near downtown it's what's necessary to achieve the kind of critical mass in the area that will spur more high end retail and restaurant development. And keep in mind that not everyone in an apartment is there because they can't afford a house. Some of us don't want a large house and yard to take care of and may be just fine with apartment or condo life for many years to come.

[Guest danax]

BTW danax, adults enjoy libraries too. In fact, I see more adults than children in libraries.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I go to the Central Library all the time, it's just that I don't see the City or County building one mainly for adults, especially when the Central one is pretty close. A Barnes & Noble is more likely.

[midtownguy]

Sullivan,

EXACTLY! Great Post. I live in midtown, in one of the nicer complexes, and I could easily afford a nice house or condo. But I'm not ready to buy. I'm not a crackhead, and I don't plan on living in a crack den. Most of the people in my complex aren't crackheads, and are, instead, professionals.

Sure, some of the nicer complexes are offering rent specials. But so what? There's STILL extensive INCOME, EMPLOYMENT and CRINMINAL background checks.

I don't get it. Camden is creating an UPSCALE apt complex which will benefit midtown (bringing in the much-talked-about critical mass) and people on here are bitching and moaning. I could see if they announced that the rents would be $400 a month. THEN that's time to panic. But we're talking about a complex that's probably going to have units at $800 and up.

I like parks. I do. But in order to make a park viable, you have to have people LIVING NEAR IT. The idea for a block at McGowen was dumb. All it would have turned into was a drug-infested crack park.

I have a question I'd like to toss out to the entire board: where does everyone currently live?

[2112]

Sullivan,

EXACTLY! Great Post. I live in midtown, in one of the nicer complexes, and I could easily afford a nice house or condo. But I'm not ready to buy. I'm not a crackhead, and I don't plan on living in a crack den. Most of the people in my complex aren't crackheads, and are, instead, professionals.

[The Great Hizzy!]

I'm out west towards Westchase. I think you have a perfect mix of different incomes in that area and the housing displays it. And, again, you have it all centered near a heavy commercial activity point. That's important if you want to sustain the viability of the area.

From what I've seen over my four years there, people who make $100,000 a year live within a three mile radius of people who earn 1/5 of that, a third of that, 1/2 of that and so on. You have a good mix of Anglo, Latino, Asian and African-American. They may not all interact with each other routinely but they coexist pretty much without a lot of hassle or inconvenience (outside of the traffic), and the area is pretty much well kept.

Now south of the West Park Tollway of course is a bit of a different story, but I digress.

[midtown 4.2]

Location: Midtown, East of San Jacinto.

My objections to large apartment complexes (in Midtown) have nothing to do with crackheads, crack dens, transient population etc. I'm very well aware that these are nice, clean, and up-scale projects that attract nice, clean, and civil tenants. I doubt that these complexes will evolve into the "Gufton Ghetto."

My objections are rooted in POOR URBAN DESIGN. My earlier post complimented the Post Midtown complex. They sorta did it right . . . ground level retail, wide sidewalks, apartment units that actually open onto the sidewalk, good landscaping, decent architecture, Farrago's actually have people dining al fresco. I'm afraid that Camden's proposed project for the superblock will turn out to be like the Ventana, Calais, et al . . . as nice looking as they are, they are horrible from an urban design viewpoint. These apartments turn their backs to the neighborhood and the street. I'm sure they have fantastic amenities, nice party rooms etc. but they do not integrate into the urban fabric at all.

[suzerain]

Location: Midtown, East of San Jacinto.

My objections to large apartment complexes (in Midtown) have nothing to do with crackheads, crack dens, transient population etc. I'm very well aware that these are nice, clean, and up-scale projects that attract nice, clean, and civil tenants. I doubt that these complexes will evolve into the "Gufton Ghetto."

My objections are rooted in POOR URBAN DESIGN. My earlier post complimented the Post Midtown complex. They sorta did it right . . . ground level retail, wide sidewalks, apartment units that actually open onto the sidewalk, good landscaping, decent architecture, Farrago's actually have people dining al fresco. I'm afraid that Camden's proposed project for the superblock will turn out to be like the Ventana, Calais, et al . . . as nice looking as they are, they are horrible from an urban design viewpoint. These apartments turn their backs to the neighborhood and the street. I'm sure they have fantastic amenities, nice party rooms etc. but they do not integrate into the urban fabric at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I could be wrong, but I thought his complex had groundlevel retail as a component?

[Subdude]

According to the article, it will have both ground level retail and office space. With the residents, offices, and rail stop I would think it would be able to support some sidewalk cafes etc. Despite misgivings about too many apartments, this seems to be a reasonable project for this section of Midtown. It could very well be a very successful.

[citykid09]

Ralph Bivins wrote that article didn't he use to work for the Houston Chronicle? What happened?

[Talbot]

I dont really have much objection to this project, it seems like it will be nice. I just thought for some reason they ditched the current renderings for something cheaper. But now im sure that they are the same. Blah, I had a blank moment earlier.

[ssullivan]

I have a question I'd like to toss out to the entire board: where does everyone currently live?

Kirby & North Braeswood. I will be very interested in this new Camden property. Although I just moved and love where I am, in a couple of years it may be a place I seriously consider, given its location. Since moving into town from Westchase, I've become less and less car-dependent, and if I end up working downtown or in the medical center, housing on directly on the rail line would be extremely attractive to me. Not that it takes that long to take the bus to the rail line for me now, but being that much closer would be great.

I really do think this project will be highly successful. This is the first new residential/retail/office development being built directly at a MetroRail stop. I hope it will be a catalyst for further development on the many vacant lots surrounding it.

[ssullivan]

Ralph Bivins wrote that article didn't he use to work for the Houston Chronicle? What happened?

He was. He's been gone for a while and Nancy Sarnoff replaced him. She used to be over at the HBJ. I don't know what the story was on this but since the Chronicle changed editors there's been some turnover of reporters the last couple of years.

[largeTEXAS]

The project is actually going to be really nice. It will have some ground floor retail, plaza and park space, and will hide the parking garage. I fought for the park and still would love if the land were made into a park, but Camden will do a great job on this project. We might even see parks popping up around the superblock...

[MidtownCoog]

2112, so I guess it's OK if a giant apartment complex went up next to YOUR house.

Would that be cool?

[2112]

2112, so I guess it's OK if a giant apartment complex went up next to YOUR house.

Would that be cool?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you bothered to address the things I posted, the thing I commented about was on the lack of regard towards decent people who happen to live in apartments, for whatever reason. I know of many apartments that are in the $500 range more or less that are not dripping with crime. Apartments serve a need, and as long as people are willing to share thier areas with a nice distribution of apartments and homeowners, they can, and do, coexists. As someone just posted recently, its the people who think they are too good who leave thier area because of things like this who are just as much a cause of the problems.

You question again prooves my point.

[midtownguy]

2112, I totally agree. I think you may have misread my earlier message. I was only saying that I'm tired of the attitude that many have that people who live in apts are "the element." Perhaps my "$400 a month" example was off base, but my point is, at the very least, the apts that are going up in midtown are geared to a specific group, and chances are, that group won't be "the element."

Midtowncoog, let me say this: if I owned a house, and an apt the quality of Post, AMLI, Calias and the others in midtown went up next to it, I wouldn't mind one bit.

[WestGrayGuy]

I would have to agree that for the near future apartments are good for midtown. Especially those with mixed use capacities. The rents for these apartments will not be cheap, probably starting at $800 for a one bedroom. Light rail will continue to be a magnet for development in midtown.

As a resident who moved to midtown with the first wave of apartments, Live Oak now Oakwood; apartments bring the upwardly mobile professionals who embody the so called creative class. Houston and especially midtown needs this to thrive.

On a similar note, I don't think midtown will ever experience the Gulfton Ghetto phenomenon. There is too much much traffic and too much long term development happening for midtown to stagnate into a ghetto.

[bachanon]

As a resident who moved to midtown with the first wave of apartments, Live Oak now Oakwood; apartments bring the upwardly mobile professionals who embody the so called creative class. Houston and especially midtown needs this to thrive.

the "creative class" and "upwardly mobile professional" are not the same thing. the so called creative class are artists, musicians, writers, photographers and students of such endeavors that are being priced out of neighborhoods such as montrose by the upwardly mobile professional. the creative class will be served by "affordable housing" and live/work co-ops, not affordable $140,000 townhomes and $900/month efficiency apartments.

please, please, do not refer to the upwardly mobile professional as anything but upwardly mobile professional. no offense to you UMPs out there.

i agree; however, that the chances of midtown becoming a ghetto are slim to none. my wish is that midtown planners would embrace the "creative class" and make room for real affordable housing in close proximity to the rail.

[Astro]

If you look at the subdivisions of Sharpstown and Fondren Southwest, those neighborhoods have never been able to really bounce back since the housing bust of the 1980's, like so many other neighborhoods have. I think the thing that hurts these neighborhoods the most is the oversaturation of low income apartments in the area. It's OK to have a few apartment complexes scattered among single-family housing, but in the case of Gulfton and Fondren SW, it's way too many. There's no way I would want to own a home on the outskirts of Sharpstown with all those apartments right across the street.

Too bad too because there are very nice homes in both of these neighborhoods. Has anybody ever driven through Northfield North (north of West Bellfort, West of Fondren)? There are some awesome 1970's era contemporary homes built back there, but they're completely surrounded on all immediate sides by thousands and thousands of low income apartment dwellers.

[2112]

If you look at the subdivisions of Sharpstown and Fondren Southwest, those neighborhoods have never been able to really bounce back since the housing bust of the 1980's, like so many other neighborhoods have.  I think the thing that hurts these neighborhoods the most is the oversaturation of low income apartments in the area.  It's OK to have a few apartment complexes scattered among single-family housing, but in the case of Gulfton and Fondren SW, it's way too many.  There's no way I would want to own a home on the outskirts of Sharpstown with all those apartments right across the street. 

Too bad too because there are very nice homes in both of these neighborhoods.  Has anybody ever driven through Northfield North (north of West Bellfort, West of Fondren)?  There are some awesome 1970's era contemporary homes built back there, but they're completely surrounded on all immediate sides by thousands and thousands of low income apartment dwellers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. Totally agree. If there is good balance (and not saturation of very-low rent apartments), then that is a good solution where everyone can co-exists. But again, there are people out there who start freaking out the moment A SINGLE apartment complex comes withing a half mile of thier homes. It's all about variety, balance, and tolerance.

Take care.

[2112]

Oh, and Midtownguy, my rant was not directed at you.

[MidtownCoog]

that the chances of midtown becoming a ghetto

I guess you mean becoming a ghetto again. Less than five years ago, it pretty much was ghetto.

Anyone remember Elizabeth Baldwin Park before the bumoside?

Ghettos, just like apartments, are a necessary evil.

[midtownguy]

2112, Oh, I know. I actually went back and saw your PS. I know it wasn't meant for me. No harm no foul.

It's nice to hear other people back me up and say that the chances of midtown becoming another gulfton are slim. I said that a few months ago and was shot down by a few people who said it was a possibility.

MidtownCoog, what's your point? Ok, five years ago midtown was a ghetto. Ghettos, like apartments, are a necessary evil. Ok, so? I don't get your point.

[midtown_resident]

Midtown has a geographical advantage over Gulfton - with it's proximity to downtown, easy access to the med center, it's unlikely that a Gulfton complex would set in here. Additionally, note that there are huge changes in neighboring downtown which are acting as anchors...like the stadiums, main street, hobby center, light rail, convention centerl, the new downtown park...as downtown picks up, it will only further the sustainability of midtown.

Apartments for urban dwellers is nothing new...and my thought is that this project will only promote midtown - i like the fact that they are trying to attract a large critical mass.

Downtown apts are now being converted to condos at the St. Germain.