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Dollar Tree At 1000 Elgin St.


UrbaNerd

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oooohhh, those evil suburban drive-thru lanes that made me laugh.

are the bank drive thru lines evil too???

or are they not suburban enough, what the hell is that all about.

"...CVS Pharmacies that can cater to the Chevy Tahoe driving crowd that are "too busy" to get out of their damn cars and deal with a person face-to-face"

that ones funny too, those evil club footed tahoe drivers they are just killing you're dream aren't they...

funny stuff

The design kind of defeats the purpose of the light rail. I am not sure what the design will look like but what is the purpose of having car oriented strip centers lining a light rail line that is suppose to take more vehicles off the road?

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West guy-

Please explain to me why drive-thru lanes are good.

From what I see, they encourage driving which from a health standpoint isn't a good thing. From what I hear, Houstonians could use the extra steps it would take to walk from a parking spot to the teller or pharmacist.

They also encourage idling which is a total waste of resources and increases our dependence upon foreign oil. This also doesn't mention that Houston has a pollution problem that vehicular traffic contributes too.

They discourage actual face-to-face interaction. When I was little, we knew our pharmacist and actually looked forward to a brief visit. Now, we all act like our blank doesn't stink and our time is too darn important to waste on small things like being patient and kind and knowing the people who make up our community.

The funny thing is, you don't see these types of places in central Boston. Yet, we all somehow manage to survive despite not having access to a drive thru Wendy's, a fly-by ATM machine, or a 24 hour CVS pharmacy that you don't have to step foot in.

What you do see are your neighbors walking. Mothers pushing strollers to run their errands rather than ignoring their kids while they watch a DVD in the SUV. You see sidewalk cafes filled with life instead of massive parking lots. You see flower shops displaying their goods on the wide sidewalks. Dog walkers. Coffee shops with people interacting instead of barking orders into the Starbucks' drive-thru microphone.

Midtown could offer this type of environment. Houstonians should have that option.

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The funny thing is, you don't see these types of places in central Boston. Yet, we all somehow manage to survive despite not having access to a drive thru Wendy's, a fly-by ATM machine, or a 24 hour CVS pharmacy that you don't have to step foot in.

OK. Time to get off that high-horse.

You and I both know why you don't see those places in central Boston. Same reason you don't see them in central London.

And considering Boston is home to one of the biggest boondoogles known to man-kind (Big Dig), I'd think hard before crowing Boston as the world's model city.

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West guy-

Please explain to me why drive-thru lanes are good.

From what I see, they encourage driving which from a health standpoint isn't a good thing. From what I hear, Houstonians could use the extra steps it would take to walk from a parking spot to the teller or pharmacist.

They also encourage idling which is a total waste of resources and increases our dependence upon foreign oil. This also doesn't mention that Houston has a pollution problem that vehicular traffic contributes too.

They discourage actual face-to-face interaction. When I was little, we knew our pharmacist and actually looked forward to a brief visit. Now, we all act like our blank doesn't stink and our time is too darn important to waste on small things like being patient and kind and knowing the people who make up our community.

The funny thing is, you don't see these types of places in central Boston. Yet, we all somehow manage to survive despite not having access to a drive thru Wendy's, a fly-by ATM machine, or a 24 hour CVS pharmacy that you don't have to step foot in.

What you do see are your neighbors walking. Mothers pushing strollers to run their errands rather than ignoring their kids while they watch a DVD in the SUV. You see sidewalk cafes filled with life instead of massive parking lots. You see flower shops displaying their goods on the wide sidewalks. Dog walkers. Coffee shops with people interacting instead of barking orders into the Starbucks' drive-thru microphone.

Midtown could offer this type of environment. Houstonians should have that option.

Thank you. It is obvious that Midtown is looking for an ideal urban environment and it amazes me that people cannot see that simple things such as controlling land use can lead to greater things. It's all a cycle. Controlling land use can lead to increased land value. When you have increased land value, it usually leads to smaller lots and mixed uses. Smaller lots and mixed uses lead to higher density. Higher density increases vehicular traffic and more congestion. When there is higher congestion there is a need for more transit use. More transit use lowers car ownership and that leads to more walking. All of this leads to an ideal urban environment. Too bad this city cannot sacrifice some things to build the environments that we cry about that we can use in Houston.

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Smaller lots and mixed uses lead to higher density.

This is Texas. Home of wide open spaces.

I'm all for better land use, but I don't care to live all Yankeefied like a cat in a cage.

And I especially don't care for East Coast government telling me what I can and can't do.

Those who do should rent a U-Haul. Or maybe you could walk your belongings back East.

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This is Texas. Home of wide open spaces.

I'm all for better land use, but I don't care to live all Yankeefied like a cat in a cage.

And I especially don't care for East Coast government telling me what I can and can't do.

Those who do should rent a U-Haul. Or maybe you could walk your belongings back East.

OK, but you have options.

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Houston needs to find a solution, for sure.

But I don't think there is a single city out there when can use as a model for what we should do.

Try selling flowers or fruit outside today. Or dining al fresco at 3:00.

It just does not work here.

I don't care for drive thru service either, but try getting a newborn and three year old out of car seats so you can drop off your script when it's 95.

That is why we have them. I try to avoid them, but sometimes you have to.

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Honestly, this thread has become hilariously funny as far as I'm concerned...some folks on this board have clearly drank the kool-aide.

Do you really have trouble understanding why most folks would find suburban development right outside of downtown and on the region's first light rail line a bad thing?
Yes. Would you prefer that what's there remain there and the land be underutilized? Seems to me that relatively cheap improvements aren't worth the hissyfit. Why worry? When demand warrants residential uses, they'll just bulldoze the store and build it into the base of the new building.
As for serving their customer base, give me a break. CVS is worried about one thing and one thing only; market saturation. There is no local need for this CVS considering there is one just a couple blocks away and a new Walgreens even closer.

CVS cares about profit. Market saturation is a means to an ends, but market saturation has nothing at all to do with architectural form. There's nothing at all wrong with having a whole lot of drug stores, either. They provide jobs and a convenient place for many grocery items. The more the merrier, as far as I'm concerned.

This is about capturing whatever commuter traffic they can, especially the east-west Elgin traffic. If they capture some foot traffic or the occasional office worker at HCC's Comtech Center, that's just gravy.
True.

Parking lots are set in front of the store in order to indicate to drivers that there are open and accessible parking spaces. Although it is profoundly rare that parking spaces are all full up at a drug store, there is a psychological barrier in the vehicle-driving consumer's mind against taking the chance that there won't be any...and the fact is that in my experience, it is not uncommon to encounter rear parking lots in which turning around and getting out is a considerable pain in the backside. Consider that, in combination with Texans' propensity for trucks...bad idea.

As CVS is profit-oriented, it really doesn't care about anything other than effectively serving its customer base to the store, which, as the store is located in an area that is more of an employment center than a neighborhood, is originating from a very broad portion of the region, much of which has relatively limited access to mass transit.

I am not sure how even you can think that encouraging more vehicular traffic along Main Street can be a good thing? It truly boggles my mind.

Since when does a CVS create traffic congestion? The marginal effect has got to be just about nil...especially considering that a lot of its customers are just stopping by on their way to another place...and its not like the traffic in Midtown is that painful to begin with. If this "boggles your mind", then that is just sad...I really don't know what else to tell you.

They might also save time avoiding the City of Houston's permitting process by having to petition to go against the stupid set-back rules that almost mandate the type of crappy development our city sees.
I will agree with you completely on this one. Setback restrictions are as assinine as land use controls in my mind.
you don't see these types of places in central Boston. Yet, we all somehow manage to survive despite not having access to a drive thru Wendy's, a fly-by ATM machine, or a 24 hour CVS pharmacy that you don't have to step foot in.

Jeez, that must suck. Glad I don't live there, having to conform to a realm without the choice of being an easygoing drive-thru motorist. I like having choices, too. Choices are good. :) That's one reason I like Houston, actually. We have the choice of driving through OR of parking and walking in. Seems like a lot of folks opt to use the drive-through anyway...I guess that they made their choice. As an introvert who generally prefers to keep to myself, I know I have.

Edited by TheNiche
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$100K is not upper class.
The notion of 'upper class' is entirely subjective. I defined it for the purposes of my argument, and based the figure upon the kind of households that developers most frequently target for upscale new construction. FYI, less than 17% of all households in the United States fall within my definition. I could have simply divided the total number of households into thirds, in which case, the upper third of the population would start in the low $70's per year.

In any case, this discussion is nearly pointless. All that matters is that this "upper sixth" of households hasn't committed themselves to Midtown to any significant degree. In fact, there is a sort of prevailing attitude that they tend to like the idea of an urban residential Midtown, but would rather that someone else live there...not them and certainly not their children.

In fact, it is interesting that you feel that a parking lot behind a store is such an inconvenience to DRIVERS, who must now drive an extra 75 feet

How are drivers needing to drive further? Seems like parking in the back of the lot requires them to drive all the way behind the store and THEN walk around the store to the front entrance. If drivers comprise the perponderance of the customer base, which they will one way or the other, then CVS should cater to drivers.

If Midtown is successful, the city benefits from increased taxes.
Don't you think that CVS will improve the site, carry inventory, and induce taxable retail sales? Is it not better than what is there now?
Midtown is attempting to provide a unique living environment, one that allows a denser, walkable neighborhood. Stores built at the back of a parking lot make that objective harder to achieve.

Stores built in the neighborhood make that easier to achieve, regardless of a 75-foot setback. Again, is it not better than what is there now?

Just because the government does not outlaw it, doesn't mean it is the best use of the property. And the developer's right to build does not take away the neighborhood's right to punish the developer economically for ignoring the neighbors.
No kidding. The best use of finite supply of land (or capital) is that which can generate the greatest profit margins. As competing interests wishing to make a profit bid up the price of land, the landowners will capture almost all economic rents associated with its utility until there is only one prospective buyer of land left. That last remaining bidder left will still likely make money (or else wouldn't do the deal) but at the price agreed upon that would prohibit less profitable businesses from operating with any substantial gain.

CVS doesn't need to worry so much about its neighbors because its primary customer base originates from all over the region.

$100k is not upper class, it's middle to upper middle class. over $250k, you are looking more at upper class.

HUH? i will personally buy $40 psf midtown dirt on the rail all day long; you can't find anything under $50. on the east side, you are looking at a minimum of $30 and depending on the location, as much as $58.

Yeah, the last time I took a good solid look at sales comps in Midtown was about 1 1/2 years ago...I know the values have gone up since then, hence the plus sign after the "$40".

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The notion of 'upper class' is entirely subjective. I defined it for the purposes of my argument, and based the figure upon the kind of households that developers most frequently target for upscale new construction. FYI, less than 17% of all households in the United States fall within my definition. I could have simply divided the total number of households into thirds, in which case, the upper third of the population would start in the low $70's per year.

In any case, this discussion is nearly pointless. All that matters is that this "upper sixth" of households hasn't committed themselves to Midtown to any significant degree. In fact, there is a sort of prevailing attitude that they tend to like the idea of an urban residential Midtown, but would rather that someone else live there...not them and certainly not their children.

How are drivers needing to drive further? Seems like parking in the back of the lot requires them to drive all the way behind the store and THEN walk around the store to the front entrance. If drivers comprise the perponderance of the customer base, which they will one way or the other, then CVS should cater to drivers.

Don't you think that CVS will improve the site, carry inventory, and induce taxable retail sales? Is it not better than what is there now?

Stores built in the neighborhood make that easier to achieve, regardless of a 75-foot setback. Again, is it not better than what is there now?

No kidding. The best use of finite supply of land (or capital) is that which can generate the greatest profit margins. As competing interests wishing to make a profit bid up the price of land, the landowners will capture almost all economic rents associated with its utility until there is only one prospective buyer of land left. That last remaining bidder left will still likely make money (or else wouldn't do the deal) but at the price agreed upon that would prohibit less profitable businesses from operating with any substantial gain.

CVS doesn't need to worry so much about its neighbors because its primary customer base originates from all over the region.

Yeah, the last time I took a good solid look at sales comps in Midtown was about 1 1/2 years ago...I know the values have gone up since then, hence the plus sign after the "$40".

Your responses are borderline comical...no, actually, they ARE comical.

No realistic definition of upper class includes more than the top several percent of any population, except in perhaps Monte Carlo.

You have no basis to support the "prevailing attitude of the "upper sixth" of households or their children. You made it up.

Stores with rear parking also have rear entrances, in addition to street entrances. Further, you have little experience with rear parking, since there are few of them. There is nothing about a rear lot that makes ingress or egress harder than a front lot, if available space is the same. The exits merely enter a side street.

CVS does not need to worry about its neighbors? What "region" are its customers coming from? Upon completion, this will be the 16th CVS inside the Loop, including half a dozen within a mile or two of this location.

Your preference for unregulated development is well known. Houston's reputation for unregulated development is also well known. Your positing opinion or anecdote as fact does not make your argument.

BTW, CVS HAS been known to consider the preferences of the neighborhood. Drive by the Heights location for an example. No one on this board, including you, has any idea whether CVS will design a store that meets with the approval of Midtown supporters, or is just another suburban clone. The purpose of this thread is to debate what residents would LIKE to see.

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Regardless of the niche's fantasy definition of "upper class", that has no relevancy here. As I stated before, they will build what they want where they want unless a group like the HHA puts enough pressure on them. Clearly no one in Midtown has stepped up to the plate. Most of the posters have given good arguments.

dalparadise suggests the ground floor space across the street in the HCC garage. Perhaps CVS could have cut a deal with HCC to include parking. Maybe they tried and failed-doubtful but maybe not.

WesternGulf makes too much sense:

The design kind of defeats the purpose of the light rail. I am not sure what the design will look like but what is the purpose of having car oriented strip centers lining a light rail line that is suppose to take more vehicles off the road?

In the end, CVS did not take the Red Line into consideration because they are going to build it blocks away from any station. Therefore expect a typical CVS just like the one a few blocks away: SUV oriented for lazy people who don't want to bother to take the few extra steps it would take to get to a real urban-style oriented retail outlet.

I won't boycott CVS as I use the one at Yale and 20th that the HHA influenced and because the people there are friendly.

I won't be using the Main CVS however. Leaves more room for the uber-growth at any cost crowd.

B)

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No realistic definition of upper class includes more than the top several percent of any population, except in perhaps Monte Carlo.

You have no basis to support the "prevailing attitude of the "upper sixth" of households or their children. You made it up.

That's right, I made it up. Why must I keep repeating myself, Red?

The notion of 'upper class' is entirely subjective. I defined it for the purposes of my argument, and based the figure upon the kind of households that developers most frequently target for upscale new construction.
Stores with rear parking also have rear entrances, in addition to street entrances. Further, you have little experience with rear parking, since there are few of them.

You are correct in that I have little experience with them. However, the few memorable experiences that I have had have not been pleasant, including one in Austin where the lot was too cramped, requiring me to back out a long distance before I could turn around, and two in Houston. One Houston experience was G&Z Coffee on Almeda, where, I had to squeeze past a couple of cars and then couldn't turn around within the lot and had to get someone's assistance in order not to scrape them when backing out. I got stuck in a similar situation near Rice Village. These events have formed in my mind a preconceived bias against parking lots that are configured in such a way that I cannot see what I'm getting myself into. I'm sure that I'm not alone in this regard. Moreover, there is simply a psychological barrier that exists when people in cars do not have the most convenient access to parking or are unsure of the proper entrances or exists and parking capacity/design...it is in fact perfectly comparable to the psychological barrier that a pedestrian faces at a parking lot fronting a grocery store or big box.

CVS does not need to worry about its neighbors? What "region" are its customers coming from? Upon completion, this will be the 16th CVS inside the Loop, including half a dozen within a mile or two of this location.
That is correct. Its customers aren't its neighbors in much the same way that the customers (i.e. tenants) of a downtown office building typically do not reside in a neighboring area...they commute. For this reason, the Wedge Tower need not worry about its green neon light annoying people residing in 4th Ward whose bedroom windows face toward downtown. They do show concern for the complaints of such people, but they don't have to and certainly shouldn't be forced by governmental interference. There happen to be hundreds of large office buildings inside the loop...does that mean that the decision makers that pick which office building to lease from are typically "neighbors" or that such a building must show concern for its "neighbors"? No!
BTW, CVS HAS been known to consider the preferences of the neighborhood. Drive by the Heights location for an example.

The Heights is a predominantly residential area; the store's customer base will reflect that. In this case, CVS must(!) go along with the preferences of its neighbors.

So it all boils down to the reiteration of my basic point: for-profit retailers understand and serve their customer bases.

The purpose of this thread is to debate what residents would LIKE to see.

Ok. Well I am a resident of the City of Houston and further qualify myself as an "Inner Loopie". I would very much like to see a structure where form is adapted to the most efficient function of the retail establishment.

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That's right, I made it up.

...the Wedge Tower need not worry about its green neon light annoying people residing in 4th Ward whose bedroom windows face toward downtown. They do show concern for the complaints of such people, but they don't have to and certainly shouldn't be forced by governmental interference.

The Heights is a predominantly residential area; the store's customer base will reflect that. In this case, CVS must(!) go along with the preferences of its neighbors.

Maybe if you stopped making things up, posters would stop calling you on it.

There was no government interference with the neon on Wedge and there appears to be no government interference with a CVS on Main. What's your point?

CVS only goes along with the preferences of the neighborhood when pushed to the wall by existing restrictions. Clearly you and CVS win in this situation as I don't know of anyone in Houston pushing CVS to the wall the way HHA has.

Edited by nmainguy
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The same people who make fun of the Big Dig today are likely to have made fun of...

The Houston Ship Channel

The Texas Medical Center

NASA

IAH

There are some people that will NEVER support funding for the greater public good. There are also others who think the market should control EVERYTHING. Thankfully, I am not one of those people.

Trust me, while people here hated the Big Dig while it was being built, they are LOVING it now. It has made Boston 100% better and it was a pretty darn nice city to begin with.

Additionally, since when did Texans become such whimps?

I didn't realize the sun and humidty where so much to bare. Maybe you should hoof it on up to New England?

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Maybe if you stopped making things up, posters would stop calling you on it.

There was no government interference with the neon on Wedge and there appears to be no government interference with a CVS on Main. What's your point?

CVS only goes along with the preferences of the neighborhood when pushed to the wall by existing restrictions. Clearly you and CVS win in this situation as I don't know of anyone in Houston pushing CVS to the wall the way HHA has.

There you go taking things out of context again. Its almost as though you just scan through my posts until you find some phrase with which you completely disagree, and then, without looking at anything surrounding that phrase, you rip it out and throw it back in my face.

Having used the word several times, I'd have hoped that you would have noticed it...but the word "SUBJECTIVE" is in play. In this context, it means that one person's interpretation of a word or phrase may vary from that of another person. The terms used to describe socioeconomic classes are inherently subjective unless they are defined by the user of the term. So back off, dude. <_<

My point with Wedge is that it serves as an analogy of how interactions between a business and its non-customer neighbors may work out. In large part, Wedge tries to appease neighbors by turning the lights off whenever possible...but they don't have to. It is their perrogative and I'm just thankful that the lighting is not regulated by the City. That's my point.

There are some people that will NEVER support funding for the greater public good. There are also others who think the market should control EVERYTHING. Thankfully, I am not one of those people.

Perhaps they meant how Big Dig was overbudget, behind schedule, and had significant engineering problems that had to be reworked... Spending money isn't a problem. Spending it improperly can be a big problem.

Market regulation is also not inherently a problem. There are circumstances where regulation is necessary (i.e. natural monopolies, cartels, etc.) in order to maintain a functioning marketplace. The problem is when regulations are passed without consideration for the unintended consequences or concern for those affected. For instance, zoning would shut down hundreds (possibly thousands) of home-based businesses and have a particularly adverse impact upon poor businessowners who can't afford rents at commercial properties...it'd have benefits too...but people often don't realize the extent of the hidden costs of many forms of market regulation.

Edited by TheNiche
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Perhaps they meant how Big Dig was overbudget, behind schedule, and had significant engineering problems that had to be reworked... Spending money isn't a problem. Spending it improperly can be a big problem.

My point exactly. Just think about how much money we have spent for rail on Main St.

And we are STILL in recovery mode. I'll take a Suburban stlye CVS vs. a deserted lot any day.

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I don't shop at CVS becuase they have terrible customer service. They could learn a thing or two from Walgreens.

I don't go to CVS because they ask if you have a CVS card. Yeah like I need another card in my wallet to go with the Kroger, Randalls, Vallero coffee card..........

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So which is it? You didn't make it up but thought you did...dude? :wacko:

You just did it again. :wacko::wacko::wacko::wacko::wacko:

If there is anyone out there that actually buys into nmainguy's antics, please let me know now. Otherwise I'm just going to give up on him and drop this topic as he alone simply isn't worth my time.

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You just did it again. :wacko::wacko::wacko::wacko::wacko:

If there is anyone out there that actually buys into nmainguy's antics, please let me know now. Otherwise I'm just going to give up on him and drop this topic as he alone simply isn't worth my time.

:lol: I love the way you weasel out of being confronted with your own words. :lol:

I don't go to CVS because they ask if you have a CVS card. Yeah like I need another card in my wallet to go with the Kroger, Randalls, Vallero coffee card..........

I hear you west, but as opposed to my Kroger card, I actually get $$ back on my CVS card via coupons and actual cash back. It's a free card and I'm getting an occasional break so what the hey.

B)

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So which is it? You didn't make it up but thought you did...dude? :wacko:

Look, if you're just going to attack other members and engage in little flame wars, then take it to PM so the rest of us don't have to read it. :angry2::angry2:

Back on topic, you can't really expect that CVS will build a pedestrian-oriented store out of the goodness of their hearts. As was pointed out, unless there are compatible design guidelines, a strong neighborhood association, or a committed developer, then owners will build what they want. As for Midtown, at this point I think it is probably too late to make it into a cohesive pedestrian/"urban" neighborhood. It was never planned that way to begin with, and the above elements are all missing. There's no denying that Midtown is a lot better than it used to be, but maybe not all that it could have been.

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Block in Midtown sold

More than two years after Metro's light rail line took its maiden voyage, development along the 7.5-mile route has been slow to materialize, some have said. Others have argued that point, explaining that big changes take time.

A lot of the transformation so far has taken place in Midtown, where a prime block of land just sold at the corner of Main and Elgin.

A CVS Pharmacy will be built on the southeast corner, according to Marshall Davidson of Cushman & Wakefield,

who was involved in the land sale.

This will be CVS's second store in Midtown. The pharmacy chain already operates an outlet on Gray in the neighborhood's northern end.

Davidson wouldn't disclose the sales price, but properties in the area are being marketed for upwards of $50 per square foot.

"Inevitably, there's going to be a premium paid for properties on that rail line," he said.

Monte L. Tinkham Properties was also involved in the transaction.

nancy.sarnoff@chron.com

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