house okays oil drilling in wildlife refuge

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Can't wait to see how you'd react when they find oil in the Amazon, Serengeti, and Yellowstone

I believe in good investments. What will American citizens get out of opening ANWR? How will it affect oil prices? If the answer is very little, then WTF?

Theres oil in Africa, many many many many places. Should it not be drilled so they can have beautiful senery with children starving and dieing of thirst in the streets? No worries, they will have a beautiful scenic site to see just before death from starvation and thirst.........Oil production creates wealth riches and opportunity for advancement in life. I find that more important than animals and wildlife. Humans and animals are NOT equals. Humans and trees are NOT equals.

Amazon? Take a trip down there. Beautiful too but i feel its filled with all sorts of diseases that would be unleashed if more of that place is cut down.

[nmainguy]

Educate or indoctrinate?...you are correct in asserting that the "dribble of tax revenue...would never be enough" to educate me. You'd have to shoot me and all those like me. I suppose you were a big fan of China's cultural revolution, too.

But I digress...these personal attacks against me are so distracting.

Ok. You changed your mind. Now it's indoctrination and not education. Yes, I am a follower of Mao. > <[typical far right-wing deflection courtesy of Rove and Cheney]

I have found that some people can't or won't see beyond their own little world. I may want to go to ANWAR at some point and if I do, I can afford it. Why should I let you or anyone else deny me the right to see it in it's pristine state? I just don't see the logic in investing in a miniscule field of oil when it is clear we need to move on to other sources of energy that have nothing to do with petroleum.

It's all moot. As usual [and thank God] this act by the House is DOA.

BTW, grow a thicker skin...if you think the above was a personal attack...

[TJones]

To me, the question is about if it's worth it or not. Jeopardizing an entire wildlife refuge better be worth it, but there's nothing that states that this project will be a long term oil producer (which is why it's a gamble for an investor). I agree that the U.S. should search more for domestic solutions, however I think TJones is accurate that the Gulf Of Mexico has much more fuel resources than Alaska.

ANWR is MINIMAL for oil supply, anyway. If the U.S. wants to make the most for it's money, we need to spend more on alternative fuel and/or drilling in the Gulf of Mexico instead of letting someone drill in ANWR with no effect on the American economy. What's in this for Congress other than campaign contributions? As we talk about looking for more within America, we talk about getting rid of the only refuge of it's kind in America in the same sentence. MoonDude, would you rather drill for a little oil in ANWR, or drill for a lot in da Gulf of Mexico?

What about all the "wildlife" in the Gulf of Mexico ? Where is the difference, I'll tell you the difference, Friggin Caribou can't swim, so no biggie !

[RedScare]

What about all the "wildlife" in the Gulf of Mexico ? Where is the difference, I'll tell you the difference, Friggin Caribou can't swim, so no biggie !

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

What about all the "wildlife" in the Gulf of Mexico ? Where is the difference, I'll tell you the difference, Friggin Caribou can't swim, so no biggie !

I have the answer for you. Its called TV cameras!!! The wild life in the oceans are not on tv cameras when this sort of crap comes up so its not talked about. "Symbolism over Substance"

[ricco67]

While people are harping that we need more oil to come from domestic sources, we have the issue that we don

[RedScare]

As an aside, I

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

OPEC? What if i told you theres a plan in the works to make OPEC obsolete. What if i told you some of the most qualified candidates have been ACTIVELY working on the final details of that since 2002? Stay tuned...........

[nmainguy]

OPEC? What if i told you theres a plan in the works to make OPEC obsolete. What if i told you some of the most qualified candidates have been ACTIVELY working on the final details of that since 2002? Stay tuned...........

Oh, c'mon...fill us in. Inquiring HAIFers want to know.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Oh, c'mon...fill us in. Inquiring HAIFers want to know.

Only way i will tell all on this is if im diagnosed with cancer tomorrow. What i can say is look for ties with Uzbekistan and Angola to grow. The ties with Pakistan will get stronger. Afghanistan will thank the US for removing the sh#t Taliban in more ways than one. If you have flown in and out of IAH frequently the last say 35 months, you should have noticed a frequent visitor from Russia in the form of a transport as well as several frequently chartered MD 11 jets from World Airways. Think about where you live and the transport to these areas and the pieces should begin to fit, a little :) :) :)

[TJones]

Where did you get that picture of them frolicking in the Gulf of Mexico ? This is obviously a bad Photoshop Red. Nice try my Liberal friend.

....ok, ok, can't swim for extended periods of time, GEEEEEEZZZZ, you are such a stickler.

[TheNiche]

Reasonable? How much more reasonable can I be, that I would advocate protection of a national treasure that I may not ever get to experience?

I DO understand the arguments of Niche, 1stWord and MexAm Moose. !stWord thinks that anything that gets in the way of a job should be mowed down. Moose, apparently reading a different Bible than everyone else, thinks God put everything here for him to ravage. Niche exhibits classic NIMBY thinking...as long as I don't see it, go for it...ignoring the Native Eskimo who DO have to see it, and have to live off the Caribou.

Me, I'm kind of a freak. I don't think that my self-centered interests should be the yardstick by which destruction of the environment should be measured. But, hey, that's just me. If the Love Canal Trio thinks we should practice scorched earth policies every time a couple of jobs or a few barrels of oil is involved, that is certainly their right. But, I don't understand why I should be forced to agree with you. I don't mind if I have to pay a couple of cents extra for my gas. I just use less.

Just as lawyers tend to do, you've exaggerated the input of all that oppose your stance...and you've just plain gotten mine wrong. I'm not a NIMBYist...I could care less whether drilling was in my backyard or not and would very much prefer that the marketplace decide. But to the extent that there are NIMBYists out there with political clout, it seems like drilling in ANWR would be a solution to their points of view. And as far as the Eskimo go, I've got another solution: require that oil companies feed them on a level commensurate with the depopulation of caribou. Food is cheap...oil is not. Somehow, I suspect that the population wouldn't decline all that dramatically, anyway. Anybody got numbers showing the impact on the caribou populations along the existing pipeline?

Nobody is forcing you to agree with a point of view that you actually do not. There is no gun to your head. The act of 'forcing' one to agree is perhaps better described as 'persuasion through honest discussion'.

I don't mind if I have to pay a couple of cents extra for my gas. I just use less.

Good. That's how its supposed to work. The corollary to that is that as prices go up, production increases so as to provide you with the ability to use the amount with which you would be most comfortable. If you inhibit that process, then you will forever be resigned to a state of suboptimal consumption.

[TJones]

I have the answer for you. Its called TV cameras!!! The wild life in the oceans are not on tv cameras when this sort of crap comes up so its not talked about. "Symbolism over Substance"

Believe me H1WOTM, I think Caribou is "good eatin". I could use a Caribou burber RIGHT NOW ! ....and they can truck in the meat using some of the gasoline made from ANWR oil for all I care.

[TheNiche]

Oil production creates wealth riches and opportunity for advancement in life.

Not in all cases. African political systems tend not to be stable enough for the local population to benefit by any substantial margin. In fact, the process often creates more instability than it fosters.

[TJones]

Not in all cases. African political systems tend not to be stable enough for the local population to benefit by any substantial margin. In fact, the process often creates more instability than it fosters.

Because you have only a few Gov. officials benefitting from the wealth, and is NOT allowed to be shared by the people for which it SHOULD enrich.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Because you have only a few Gov. officials benefitting from the wealth, and is NOT allowed to be shared by the people for which it SHOULD enrich.

I dont like you anymore TJones, you beat me to it

[TheNiche]

I may want to go to ANWAR at some point and if I do, I can afford it. Why should I let you or anyone else deny me the right to see it in it's pristine state? I just don't see the logic in investing in a miniscule field of oil when it is clear we need to move on to other sources of energy that have nothing to do with petroleum.

So we should forgo the harvesting of economic resources because some people MIGHT want to go and visit? If ANWR is as important as you claim despite its minimal visitation, I think that by your logic we should remove all offshore drilling platforms from the Gulf of Mexico because it gets a whole lot more visitation from people on cruises, and they might not want to see those rigs. For that matter, how about we remove all the access roads leading to Big Bend National Park...after all, having all those people there just corrupts the place and detracts from the natural beauty. And while we're on the topic, perhaps a forcible depopulation of the human species would be in order...I'm sure that you'd volunteer, given your altruistic devotion to the natural order of things.

Seriously man, you've got to come around to the fact that humans and all of their impacts are just part of the natural process. There's nothing that is artificial...the whole notion of artificiality and naturality vs. unnaturality is nothing more than a cultural construct. If you desire a more natural state of being, then I suggest that you observe the adaptative behavior of wildlife to their changing habitats and learn to be. Read my signature, won't you?

[TheNiche]

The reason why our fuel prices are not expected to go down in the near future is the fact that the oil prices are in part, decided by OPEC as far as production goes if production goes up, prices go down. If production goes down, prices go up. Also future traders have a tendency to decide on perception and emotion instead of the reality of the supply/demand situation.

OPEC only has reasonable influence when oil prices are in the $30's or less; by 'reasonable', I mean to say that they'd be hurting themselves more than helping if they did not increase production to its fullest capacity.

You're essentially right about commodity traders, though...although they play a very important role by effectively rationing economic resources so as to prevent shortages from ever occurring. And the basis by which they trade is inherently emotional...how else is one supposed to judge the probability that Isreal will turn Iran into a glass floor on any given day? There's a point at which actuarial calculations fail, and commodities traders just have to go by the seat of their pants as a result.

Another factor that is rarely in the equation for the oil price is the fact that China and India are quickly becoming major consumers of oil and it's a fair bet that they will try to compete with us on the price of oil to meet THEIR demands.

As an aside, I'd like to mention that if a bidding war ever broke out between china and the US over oil, we may lose in the short term, but as a communist state, the economy they currently have would not be able to sustain such wanton spending and ours would eventually succeed. It could be that if such a scenario happens, China would be the next communist country to collapse because of Economic idiocy.

Bidding wars don't break out between countries...for some people, people get this misconception in their heads that nations bid for oil when in fact it is corporations that bid for oil. Bids are carried out by the tanker until the very moment that they're topped off and made ready to set sail. And tankers don't go to a nation...they go to a refinery that just happens to be on a given nation's soil but that is typically owned by a large multinational corportation with no particular loyalties to any given country.

The existence of multinationals is in fact one of the reasons that a major conflict between superpowers is nearly impossible in this day and age...every single major country would take such a big hit by the forcible splintering of all these multinationals that their ability to wage war, much less feed their people, would be severely curtailed.

Btw, Red...the debt of nations is in large part dependent upon your credit risk...the U.S. is considered to have the least, so we're able to leverage cheap debt. Borrowing money isn't a bad thing so long as governments don't incentivize it and are themselves responsible.

The only true way for our to be able to get ourselves out of the oil jam we

[ricco67]

theniche'

I agree with you Brazil is more able to grow sugar cane than we can.

While I

[DJ V Lawrence]

What about all the "wildlife" in the Gulf of Mexico ? Where is the difference, I'll tell you the difference, Friggin Caribou can't swim, so no biggie !

I disagree. I believe drilling in the Gulf of Mexico could make less an impact on wildlife in the Gulf than the impact could be on ANWR's wildlife if done right.

Theres oil in Africa, many many many many places. Should it not be drilled so they can have beautiful senery with children starving and dieing of thirst in the streets? No worries, they will have a beautiful scenic site to see just before death from starvation and thirst.........Oil production creates wealth riches and opportunity for advancement in life. I find that more important than animals and wildlife. Humans and animals are NOT equals. Humans and trees are NOT equals.

Amazon? Take a trip down there. Beautiful too but i feel its filled with all sorts of diseases that would be unleashed if more of that place is cut down.

Um, it is said the the CURE to many diseases may be within the Amazon

Also, you really expect me to believe that if oil were found in Africa that the profits from the oil industry would go back to the starving children that live there?! And how many children have benefitted from the diamond industry there as much as many Americans have?

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

I disagree. I believe drilling in the Gulf of Mexico could make less an impact on wildlife in the Gulf than the impact could be on ANWR's wildlife if done right.

Um, it is said the the CURE to many diseases may be within the Amazon

Also, you really expect me to believe that if oil were found in Africa that the profits from the oil industry would go back to the starving children that live there?! And how many children have benefitted from the diamond industry there as much as many Americans have?

Your United Nothings err United Nations that you support so much has assured certain areas of prosperity WHEN oil drilling begins, not if. Americans benefiting from the diamond industry? what? are you sure about that?

[DJ V Lawrence]

Your United Nothings err United Nations that you support so much has assured certain areas of prosperity WHEN oil drilling begins, not if.

I still don't understand your beef with the U.N. What do you expect them to do?

Americans benefiting from the diamond industry? what? are you sure about that?

Hell yeah. Who wears these diamonds? Africa's kids or America's celebrities, husbands and wives, P. Diddys and Paris Hiltons? Say a diamond is bought for $10,000 from Jacob the Jeweler (in L.A.), that money goes back to him 100% since he designed it, though he may have initially bought those diamonds for $500 from a distributor who paid less than $50 for them to the diamond miners for the originals straight from the mine.

How many people do you know have at least one diamond in their house? Probably a lot. The people they bought it from didn't recieve those diamonds directly from Africa. It was all a buy-and-sell chain from other companies that eventually gets traced back to African mines. It's all a matter of corporate game.

Have you ever seen what demented things have happened to some of the citizens of Ivory Coast at the hands of some of the rebels that control those diamond mines?

[TJones]

You can blame the DeBeers family for the cost and corruption of the diamond industry. Diamonds are a "controlled" market, just like gold and silver. There are soooooooo many diamonds available in the world right now that if they were to be released, they would be worth about the same as a piece of quartz found in your backyard.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

I still don't understand your beef with the U.N. What do you expect them to do?

Hell yeah. Who wears these diamonds? Africa's kids or America's celebrities, husbands and wives, P. Diddys and Paris Hiltons? Say a diamond is bought for $10,000 from Jacob the Jeweler (in L.A.), that money goes back to him 100% since he designed it, though he may have initially bought those diamonds for $500 from a distributor who paid less than $50 for them to the diamond miners for the originals straight from the mine.

How many people do you know have at least one diamond in their house? Probably a lot. The people they bought it from didn't recieve those diamonds directly from Africa. It was all a buy-and-sell chain from other companies that eventually gets traced back to African mines. It's all a matter of corporate game.

Have you ever seen what demented things have happened to some of the citizens of Ivory Coast at the hands of some of the rebels that control those diamond mines?

The UN should go away, fall into the boneyard of human history....US out of the UN and UN out of the US!!!!!!

The purchaser of the diamonds are benefiting from them by wearing them? Im not following here.......

[TJones]

DJ, I don't know if you have ever heard of a documentary called Blood Diamonds, you should watch it, and you'll get the whole story. You can start here though.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/amnestynow/diamonds.html

[nmainguy]

The UN should go away, fall into the boneyard of human history....US out of the UN and UN out of the US!!!!!!

The purchaser of the diamonds are benefiting from them by wearing them? Im not following here.......

The UN is not in the US. Sorry to burst your fantasy. Maybe you could rustle up some renegade, bitter veterans and envade Turtle Bay.

DJ, I don't know if you have ever heard of a documentary called Blood Diamonds, you should watch it, and you'll get the whole story. You can start here though.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/amnestynow/diamonds.html

Good article, TJ. Thanks.

BTW, where's the baby?????

[TJones]

The UN is not in the US. Sorry to burst your fantasy. Maybe you could rustle up some renegade, bitter veterans and envade Turtle Bay.

Good article, TJ. Thanks.

BTW, where's the baby?????

This kid is apparently quite comfortable where she is, with no plans to come out. She will definately be making an appearance by June 2nd though. I think we are gonna stick with the name Reagan though, and hope for the best.

Nmain, I think he meant getting the whole "building"of the U.N. in New York to go headquarter in some other country, like Mexico or Canada. Which, I am all for, get rid of some of the spies in our country.

[DJ V Lawrence]

DJ, I don't know if you have ever heard of a documentary called Blood Diamonds, you should watch it, and you'll get the whole story. You can start here though.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/amnestynow/diamonds.html

Excelent article. Here's the part from the article where I needed to correct myself:

While the RUF terrorized and looted the countryside, thousands of prisoner-laborers, worked to exhaustion, digging up the gems from muddy open-pit mines. Many ended up in shallow graves, executed for suspected theft, for lack of production, or simply for sport.

The international diamond industry's trading centers in Europe funded this horror by buying up to $125 million worth of diamonds a year from the RUF, according to U.N. estimates. Few cared where the gems originated, or calculated the cost in lives lost rather than carats gained. The RUF used its profits to open foreign bank accounts for rebel leaders and to finance a complicated network of gunrunners who kept the rebels well-equipped with the modern military hardware they used to control Sierra Leone's diamonds. The weapons

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

The UN is not in the US. Sorry to burst your fantasy. Maybe you could rustle up some renegade, bitter veterans and envade Turtle Bay.

You mean like the US embassy was on American territory in Tehran? Or like the US embassy was on American territory in Afghanistan? Fantasy my ass. I dont think the US should be involved with the UN, an organization that doesnt have the best interest of the American public in mind, and organization that can assert power over the USA and is not elected by American citizens. This citizen of the world crap is not something i wish for our country to be a part of. The world is a BIG place and most of it is NOT like the USA and they are not waiting holding thier collective breath to be like America.......

[RedScare]

The world is a BIG place and most of it is NOT like the USA and they are not waiting holding thier collective breath to be like America.......

Well, it certainly is about time that the neo-cons are informed of that fact! Then, maybe we can stop invading every country that disagrees with our glutonous philosophy.