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i often wonder if the design was approved because it purposely looks like an older building in design. You know to give a more historical look to the area, instead of the OMG two years ago there was nothing here and now, presto, the new DT.

i don't know, just a thought. i am hoping that another residential highrise will break ground in the next couple of years that has a more post-modern look (ie. more like Austin's towers, Mosaic or Kirby). i like the design, but am sort of perlexed as to why such a prominent building in such a prime location is not the showcase it could be. Make sense?

m. B)

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Brasserie Du Parc is open for business. More pictures in the link below.   http://houston.eater.com/2017/1/30/14436692/houston-brasserie-du-parc-opening-photos  

Nate already got it but guess I'll still post it here too.   One Park Place by Marc longoria, on Flickr

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^^ I love the "older feel" of the design, and in a skyline like Houston's, it makes OPP look all the more special. These post-modern residential structures are ok, but they look very repetitive. How many flat topped, all glass structures can you have in one place?

We've got our fair share of post-modern residential towers in Houston. They're just not being built in downtown (which is fine by me).

Edited by totheskies
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^^ I love the "older feel" of the design, and in a skyline like Houston's, it makes OPP look all the more special. These post-modern residential structures are ok, but they look very repetitive. How many flat topped, all glass structures can you have in one place?

We've got our fair share of post-modern residential towers in Houston. They're just not being built in downtown (which is fine by me).

I think this building turned out great so far. From vantage points within and outside of downtown I think it certainly catches your eye becase of the distinctive red brick and roof. It manages to look like an older and more traditional residential building without crossing over into the bad knockoffs of classics that we see so often. When I see it along with the other towers it immediately stands out as a residential building -- the balconies, the brick, the roof -- they all let you know right away what it is, and do so without confusing it for a hotel. I really enjoy catching glimpses of it from downtown and noticing how dramatically different it is from the glass and steel office buildings around it. Kudos on this one.

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^^^^ All terrific points in the last 3 posts and i did look at some NY beauties which definately add to the skyline and are obviously older residential highrises. Please, don't misunderstand me, i like the design a great deal. i especially think the crown gives it distinction and salvages what could have been a boring block of stone. i was just surprised because it is so out in the open and hasn't been surrounded (YET) by other scrapers, that a more cutting edge type of design wasn't chosen. i am thinking specifically like Aqua in Chi-twn or some Melbourne and Sydney beauties. Or even London for that matter. Does my question make sense? i am just curious.

Give me your thoughts,

m. B)

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Heard a rumor that Central Market is looking to move into the location on the ground floor. Also, heard another coffee shop from NYC is planning on moving in as well. Not finalized, but close.

If any of this is true, this thing might be a slam dunk for Residential downtown houston. In addition, with other fingers development more than likely not getting off the ground off of dallas st. it makes perfect sense.

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In addition, with other fingers development more than likely not getting off the ground off of dallas st. it makes perfect sense.

I'm don't follow you on this statement. What do you mean about the relationship between the W. Dallas project and the One Park Place tenants?

Central Market and the coffee shop would be great news, if it happens.

Edited by uhlaw09
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There's a smaller Whole Foods near Symphony Hall in Boston. It's got everything you need but on a smaller scale. The size would be perfect for downtown.

Think of how much money a Whole Foods downtown on the park could make... nearby residents will be chump change compared to workers shopping before heading home or grabbing multiple lunches from the prepared foods counter or salad bar all week long. Cha-ching. Will also be an easy alternative for the hotel guests at the Hilton and Four Seasons.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Quite inappropriate, IMO. The last thing the mayor needs to do is pimp Marvy Finger. He could have written a perfectly good letter about all the great new development in downtown without going there. That's pretty greasy of you, Mayor White.

I agree. He could've described in flowery language how nice OPP is and how it benefits the City (as any mayor might at a ribbon cutting speech), gone so fare as to cite One Park Place foremost on a list of examples of downtown amenities, and then gone on to promote that people ought to want to live downtown.

He crossed a line.

I used to like Bill White, but I think that he has overstayed his welcome in the political arena. Riding on perpetually high poll numbers and weak challengers to his office, he's gotten overconfident and perhaps a bit complacent, even as he relaxes his own ethical standards. In the last couple months it seems like the Chronicle has turned on him. I'm hoping that he takes this as a sign to tone down his ambitions a notch.

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Now, as much as I've disagreed with many of Mayor White's decisions over the last few years (and his stance on 'Ashby highrise', in particular), I do not see the specific language in this letter as any more 'innapropriate' than other incentives a municipality can give a developer; specifically, property tax abatements.

The letter states, among other things:

One Park Place will be THE residence of choice...

The capital letters in the word "THE" were printed out as such in the letter.

I object to that statement specifically. It is an example of White acting in the capacity of a City official who is showing favoritism to a specific developer to the categorical exclusion of all others.

Moreover, the statement is not factual. These are the priciest apartments in downtown; a lot of people who would choose between downtown apartments may disagree that One Park Place is "THE residence of choice" as evidenced by their preference to lease a unit at the Post Rice Lofts, Hogg Palace, Houston House, or other options. I myself would much rather live in either a genuine historic building or a shiny new modern-looking apartment building than a new apartment building unconvincingly made to look old, so it is in fact not "THE residence of choice."

Randall Davis, a near-competitor- applauded White for supporting Finger
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The letter states, among other things:

The capital letters in the word "THE" were printed out as such in the letter.

I object to that statement specifically. It is an example of White acting in the capacity of a City official who is showing favoritism to a specific developer to the categorical exclusion of all others.

Moreover, the statement is not factual. These are the priciest apartments in downtown; a lot of people who would choose between downtown apartments may disagree that One Park Place is "THE residence of choice" as evidenced by their preference to lease a unit at the Post Rice Lofts, Hogg Palace, Houston House, or other options. I myself would much rather live in either a genuine historic building or a shiny new modern-looking apartment building than a new apartment building unconvincingly made to look old, so it is in fact not "THE residence of choice."

Randall Davis is a smart guy. Even if he is pissed off, Davis knows better than to go on public record as opposing someone as powerful or popular as Mayor White because that's the kind of thing that will come back to haunt him one day.

I also do not agree with "The" being used. I do not like the favortism shown and would like that article removed from the letter. However, it sure seems favortism is shown when tax and other financial incentives are given to different developers for all kinds of reasons, including developing in government-preferred areas of town. I'd take the "the" out but I can deal with the rest of this.

Regarding Davis, he has spoken his piece about many officials in government currently and recently out of power. Yes, he is very smart, but I actually think he'd prefer any high government official going on about a downtown residential development just to get people down to the area to look and when they find out the rent is $2.20, $2.15 a ft or whatever it will be, the prospective renters might look at other developments in downtown (Hogg, etc.).

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The mayor probably doesn't support the project as blindly as his letter (written very hastely without any thought to the ramifications) conveys. I think he, like most of us, is just anxious to see this long-awaited transformation in downtown... and he's willing to do just about anything to make that happen. This is certainly not Bill White's proudest moment, but he's done a really tremendous service to the city of Houston.

Remember This??

"Mayor Sees Houston Revitalization as Model for Other US Cities

By John Salustri - Last updated: May 28, 2004 01:34pm

http://www.globest.com/news/41_41/houston/122927-1.html

HOUSTON-What do synchronized traffic lights have to do with commercial real estate growth? They're a small contributor to a larger picture, a tiny piece of the quality of life that separates a city's success from its failure. That was the message more than 100 reporters heard here recently at the National Association of Real Estate Editors convention.

The vehicles of that message were Houston Mayor Bill White and a subsequent panel of experts who addressed the city's rebirth. White, for his part, told the crowd that the city over which he presides has enjoyed a record-breaking 700% growth in population since the 1930s. Clearly, he noted, "people are voting with their feet." He added that, of the population's current 60% immigration rate, three-quarters of those are foreign immigrants.

Houston has had its problems, including a weighty 20% office vacancy rate, but answers are still coming from both the private and the public sides, speakers stated. In addition, both the mayor and the subsequent panel enumerated the woes of the early '90s recession. But Houston has rebounded with a vigor based on key areas of focus, White said. These included economic development, quality of life and efficiency of government operation.

In terms of economic development--and an answer to the vacancy question--White confessed that the city fathers have aggressively sought CEOs searching for a new home, and their efforts have paid off in recent months with the additions of Chevron Texaco and Citgo as tenants here. In fact, White characterized the two deals as the largest in the city's history. Furthermore, one of those deals turned a negative--the collapse of Enron and the subsequent loss of jobs--into a positive. Chevron bought the built-but-never-occupied building here that Enron was to fill.

In terms of the quality of life, White mentioned such initiatives as the traffic-light synchronization, the creation of more park space and the raising of funds to develop neighborhood drainage programs. The efficiency of city operations came in the town's vigorous attempts to reform the municipal pension system.

In the following seminar session:

Edited by totheskies
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The mayor probably doesn't support the project as blindly as his letter (written very hastely without any thought to the ramifications) conveys. I think he, like most of us, is just anxious to see this long-awaited transformation in downtown... and he's willing to do just about anything to make that happen. This is certainly not Bill White's proudest moment, but he's done a really tremendous service to the city of Houston.

Kinda nice to have a much lower CBD vacancy rate now, huh??

The article cites a drop in citywide office vacancy (which is probably in actuality a reading of regional vacancy). Only two sentences out of that whole article had to do specifically with downtown Houston. If you attribute that drop to the wise management of City government, are you now attributing the increase in vacancy to City government's failure?

As convenient as it would be for the sake of my side of the argument to do like you do and attribute everything bad that happens to crappy government, I know better. Regional office absorption is tied principally to the ebb and flow of the national economy, commodity prices, and the currency exchange rate. A single municipal government has basically no effect.

So beyond fast and decisive actions during Hurricane Ike, White has been a champion for urban improvements for Houston... from the addition of hike and bike trails and the creation of Discovery Green, all the way to important traffic improvements. So let's try to put this letter scandal in context... a yucky looking fly in otherwise clean and perfectly usable ointment.

Are you trying to argue something pertinent to this thread or is this comment of yours just a random off-topic statement?

I'm not going to say that the man has not done good things. I am going to say that he's made some mistakes. If the ointment is good, then great. If there's a fly, that sucks. Neither fact should be ignored.

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The article cites a drop in citywide office vacancy (which is probably in actuality a reading of regional vacancy). Only two sentences out of that whole article had to do specifically with downtown Houston. If you attribute that drop to the wise management of City government, are you now attributing the increase in vacancy to City government's failure?

As convenient as it would be for the sake of my side of the argument to do like you do and attribute everything bad that happens to crappy government, I know better. Regional office absorption is tied principally to the ebb and flow of the national economy, commodity prices, and the currency exchange rate. A single municipal government has basically no effect.

Are you trying to argue something pertinent to this thread or is this comment of yours just a random off-topic statement?

I'm not going to say that the man has not done good things. I am going to say that he's made some mistakes. If the ointment is good, then great. If there's a fly, that sucks. Neither fact should be ignored.

I don't know if it's worth an answer... you'll just invariably find something wrong with it.

But FYI... I think that Mayor White has done a good job, and I wanted to share that opinion. The thread is technically pertaining only to construction progress about One Park Place, but it seems that the current vain of discussion... which has a massive impact on the livelihood of the development... would seem to apply. The '04 article does not address the specific vacancy rate for downtown in 2004, but since the overall vacancy rate has diminished significantly since that time, it's a reasonable assumption that downtown's vacancy has also diminished.

As for the general information on White's term as Mayor...

Bill White is Mayor of Houston. OPP is in Houston. Bill White helped to build/fund Discovery Green. OPP overlooks Discovery Green. Bill White encourages downtown development. OPP is downtown development.

Should I go on??

Edited by totheskies
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I don't know if it's worth an answer... you'll just invariably find something wrong with it.

Stop backing up your argument with poorly-written mostly-irrelevant articles containing botched data and I'll stop calling it out as such.

But FYI... I think that Mayor White has done a good job, and I wanted to share that opinion. The thread is technically pertaining only to construction progress about One Park Place, but it seems that the current vain of discussion... which has a massive impact on the livelihood of the development... would seem to apply. The '04 article does not address the specific vacancy rate for downtown in 2004, but since the overall vacancy rate has diminished significantly since that time, it's a reasonable assumption that downtown's vacancy has also diminished.

The article you posted from 2004 actually discusses a strategy and elements of that strategy that can be traced back to the Bob Lanier years. There's an article in Cite Looks at Houston about this. I believe they called the strategy, "Filling in the donut hole," or something like that. Like this article, this strategy has absolutely nothing to do with downtown in particular. I like Lanier and at the point during which that article was written, I really liked White, who seemed to be prudently and ethically continuing the strategy. He came off as an honest politician, truly a rare breed.

But it's been about five years and White has faltered a few times now, this incident with the salesmanship being one of them. I can understand if on the balance of it all, you still like him, but it is not apparent from your response that this general opinion of yours has anything to do with the specific topic of this thread.

As for the general information on White's term as Mayor...

Bill White is Mayor of Houston. OPP is in Houston. Bill White helped to build/fund Discovery Green. OPP overlooks Discovery Green. Bill White encourages downtown development. OPP is downtown development.

Should I go on??

Only if you can clarify for me what your point is.

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Stop backing up your argument with poorly-written mostly-irrelevant articles containing botched data and I'll stop calling it out as such.

The article you posted from 2004 actually discusses a strategy and elements of that strategy that can be traced back to the Bob Lanier years. There's an article in Cite Looks at Houston about this. I believe they called the strategy, "Filling in the donut hole," or something like that. Like this article, this strategy has absolutely nothing to do with downtown in particular. I like Lanier and at the point during which that article was written, I really liked White, who seemed to be prudently and ethically continuing the strategy. He came off as an honest politician, truly a rare breed.

But it's been about five years and White has faltered a few times now, this incident with the salesmanship being one of them. I can understand if on the balance of it all, you still like him, but it is not apparent from your response that this general opinion of yours has anything to do with the specific topic of this thread.

Only if you can clarify for me what your point is.

I second that entire post.

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Stop backing up your argument with poorly-written mostly-irrelevant articles containing botched data and I'll stop calling it out as such.

The article you posted from 2004 actually discusses a strategy and elements of that strategy that can be traced back to the Bob Lanier years. There's an article in Cite Looks at Houston about this. I believe they called the strategy, "Filling in the donut hole," or something like that. Like this article, this strategy has absolutely nothing to do with downtown in particular. I like Lanier and at the point during which that article was written, I really liked White, who seemed to be prudently and ethically continuing the strategy. He came off as an honest politician, truly a rare breed.

But it's been about five years and White has faltered a few times now, this incident with the salesmanship being one of them. I can understand if on the balance of it all, you still like him, but it is not apparent from your response that this general opinion of yours has anything to do with the specific topic of this thread.

Only if you can clarify for me what your point is.

I'm not detecting any firm facts from your statements... just personal opinions which happen to disagree with mine. Granted I was only a kid during Bob Lanier's time as Houston's mayor, and I lived in Arkansas so I had no clue what was going on here. But I didn't bring him into the conversation. However, what is an undeniable fact... One Park Place did not exist during any point of Lanier's time as mayor, so that has no relevance to this thread whatsoever. IMO the facts and opinions about Bill White would be considered relevant to the thread topic b/c OPP came to being during his time as mayor. I will look up the "Cite" article and compare it to the one that I posted.

Since you're so insistent for clarity and accuracy from my opinion... why don't you summarize the content of this thread over the past three years, and then explain to me how my opinions don't fit within its context. To me the article, and the explanation that I gave are perfectly relevant.

Edited by totheskies
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I'm not detecting any firm facts from your statements... just personal opinions which happen to disagree with mine. Granted I was only a kid during Bob Lanier's time as Houston's mayor, and I lived in Arkansas so I had no clue what was going on here. But I didn't bring him into the conversation.

You introduced as a premise a poorly-written article from five years ago which had little bearing on downtown in particular and which really described an unoriginal strategy that had been around for a very long time. It wasn't really on-topic. Not having read a lot of local history, you lacked the depth of knowledge to connect the dots and put it into context. So I actually bothered to cite my sources and filled in the history for you. (Btw, our circumstances are similar in that I was also a kid during the Lanier administration and was living about as far southwest of Houston as you lived northeast of it.)

In the course of refuting a premise on the basis of relevence, it is often necessary to describe how it is irrelevent. The negation of your premise would appear to be off topic in and of itself (i.e. if read out of context), but insofar as it negates your already irrelevent premise, it cleans up and refocuses the argument. Once arguers have accepted that the original premise is immaterial to the conversation, we can just forget that the faulty premise or my refutation of it ever existed.

However, what is an undeniable fact... One Park Place did not exist during any point of Lanier's time as mayor, so that has no relevance to this thread whatsoever.

I agree that Lanier has no relevance to this thread. However, in the course of refuting a premise on the basis of relevence, it is often necessary to describe how it is irrelevent. The negation of your premise would appear to be off topic if read out of context, but insofar as it negates your already irrelevent premise, it cleans up and refocuses the argument. Once arguers have accepted that the original premise is immaterial to the conversation, we can just forget that the faulty premise or my refutation of it ever existed.

IMO the facts and opinions about Bill White would be considered relevant to the thread topic b/c OPP came to being during his time as mayor. I will look up the "Cite" article and compare it to the one that I posted.

Since you're so insistent for clarity and accuracy from my opinion... why don't you summarize the content of this thread over the past three years, and then explain to me how my opinions don't fit within its context. To me the article, and the explanation that I gave are perfectly relevant.

If this were a thread about people moving to Houston, and I said that I moved to Houston in mid-2002 (during the Brown administration), might you believe that former Mayor Brown was relevant to the conversation? That two events have overlapping timelines does nothing to prove relevance.

Mayor White is relevant to this thread because he has been involved in the creation of the park, without which One Park Place would not have been built. Mayor White is relevant to this thread because he was approached by a developer seeking tax abatements and White turned them down. Mayor White is relevant to this thread because he acted as a salesman for One Park Place in an official capacity as Mayor.

There are plenty of reasons to discuss Mayor White's involvement in this project. However your argument is so sloppy that I'm not sure what you're really trying to get at. And when I asked you to clarify what your point was, you only answered my question with a question.

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^^Ok, points taken. This thread is about One Park Place... originally we began by speculating whether or not the building would be consturcted. Once it became a reality, we began to monitor the building's progress, and talk about it's future implications to downtown and the rest of the city. The most recent topic of discussion is having to do with an ad showing that Mayor White is in support of One Park Place. After reading a couple of posts in regards to this situation, I posted the following...

"The mayor probably doesn't support the project as blindly as his letter (written very hastely without any thought to the ramifications) conveys. I think he, like most of us, is just anxious to see this long-awaited transformation in downtown... and he's willing to do just about anything to make that happen. This is certainly not Bill White's proudest moment, but he's done a really tremendous service to the city of Houston."

The article that came afterward may have been poorly written, but I only posted it to show that some very positive things have occurred during White's time as Mayor... and OPP can be included as one of those things. Granted, One Park Place is not a functional residence (at least not yet), but so far it seems to have had a positive impact on Downtown, and in my personal opinion, it's a vast visual improvement over the surface parking lot that was there in 2005. So my point was to simply say that I understand why the Mayor would write such a letter, even if it was not a good political move.

Do we need anything else to be clarified?

Edited by totheskies
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After reading a couple of posts in regards to this situation, I posted the following...

"The mayor probably doesn't support the project as blindly as his letter (written very hastely without any thought to the ramifications) conveys. I think he, like most of us, is just anxious to see this long-awaited transformation in downtown... and he's willing to do just about anything to make that happen. This is certainly not Bill White's proudest moment, but he's done a really tremendous service to the city of Houston."

How is it relevant to any of the various on-topic or tangential issues discussed in this thread that "[bill White] has done a really tremendous service to the City of Houston?" Maybe that's true, on the balance of things. It really comes down to individual judgement. But what matters here is specifically whether his promotion of this project over others in downtown Houston is ethical or not.

Granted, One Park Place is not a functional residence (at least not yet), but so far it seems to have had a positive impact on Downtown, and in my personal opinion, it's a vast visual improvement over the surface parking lot that was there in 2005.

It was not a surface lot.

One Park Place replaced a park which was privately-owned and maintained by Crescent Real Estate. Crescent sold the park to Hakeem Olajuwon and Hakeem did a 99-year lease to Finger for their building, which necessitated the destruction of the park.

So my point was to simply say that I understand why the Mayor would write such a letter, even if it was not a good political move.

Do we need anything else to be clarified?

I myself understand his intent, but he deserves to be called out for questionable ethics and poor execution. I wouldn't be so quick to criticize, had I bothered to at all, if he had published a letter without using City letterhead.

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^^ I love the "older feel" of the design, and in a skyline like Houston's, it makes OPP look all the more special. These post-modern residential structures are ok, but they look very repetitive. How many flat topped, all glass structures can you have in one place?

We've got our fair share of post-modern residential towers in Houston. They're just not being built in downtown (which is fine by me).

Yeah, it does have an "older feel", but old as in the 1980s. To me that is what makes it so incongruous. I wouldn't think that a 1980s revival style would have that much of a historical gloss.

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Yeah, it does have an "older feel", but old as in the 1980s. To me that is what makes it so incongruous. I wouldn't think that a 1980s revival style would have that much of a historical gloss.

I don't understand. Most of our major buildings were built in the 1980's and this building definitely has a different era feeling than the others.

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this will be awesome!!! Can't wait for that..........do we know what else will be in OPP??? Anything?? i thought a restaurant/coffee shop or somethign along those lines...........

does anyone know what the rental occupancy is looking like??

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this will be awesome!!! Can't wait for that..........do we know what else will be in OPP??? Anything?? i thought a restaurant/coffee shop or somethign along those lines...........

does anyone know what the rental occupancy is looking like??

I did ask if any additional retail was planeed, and the guy said "not at the moment". I asked if there was going to be room for additional retail down the pipe, he b/s-ed something like "I'm not at liberty to disclose that info". But from the first answer he'd already slipped up.

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I did ask if any additional retail was planeed, and the guy said "not at the moment". I asked if there was going to be room for additional retail down the pipe, he b/s-ed something like "I'm not at liberty to disclose that info". But from the first answer he'd already slipped up.

Where could the additional future retail physically be placed?

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IIRC, the grocery space is on the west side of the building and there is a smaller retail space I think on the east side, conceptualized for a restaurant or cafe with outdoor plaza seating space.

That was my guess... considering the grocers that they are recruiting, it's probably just going to be the normal "in-store chain"... Cafe on the Run w/ Central Market etc. Eventhough it's not really separate from the grocer, OPP can market the area as additional retail.

Side question... has anyone been to Urban Market in Dallas?

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IIRC, the grocery space is on the west side of the building and there is a smaller retail space I think on the east side, conceptualized for a restaurant or cafe with outdoor plaza seating space.

Not sure how recent it is, but NewQuest has a small brochure on leasing opportunites on the ground level. Page 3 has the layout.

http://docs.newquest.com/brochures/onepark.pdf

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I heard it is going to be Central Market, don't know if it is true, but that is the rumor I heard. It makes sense due to the fact that Fingers was doing the other development off of W. Dallas that more than likely is not going to break ground and they had a lease agreement with Central Market.

Let's see if it pans out.

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I heard it is going to be Central Market, don't know if it is true, but that is the rumor I heard. It makes sense due to the fact that Fingers was doing the other development off of W. Dallas that more than likely is not going to break ground and they had a lease agreement with Central Market.

Let's see if it pans out.

When was the W. Dallas/ Waugh project called off?

Whole Foods is slated for that site, btw, not HEB.

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I guess Central Market would make more sense Downtown than Whole Foods because the nearest Central Market is almost in the Galleria (Wesleyan and Westheimer).

Also, Houston only has one Central Market compared with 2 in Austin and 4 in the Dallas metro area so they might be interested in expanding here.

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Looking at the brochure, the OPP retail space is a little over 18,000 sq feet. I don't see Central Market going into that space--it is roughly the size of the produce department at the CM flagship. The average CM is I think around 70,000 sq feet, and HEB doesn't scale them down. In fact the current concept is even larger, combining a CM with a large suburban store ( Bunker Hill). I have heard from friends back in San Antonio (but cannot comfirm) that HEB's expansion plans include more of these stores, not CMs.

Whole Foods, however, does scale for urban real estate, and some are quite small. I'd bet the one on Magazine Street in NOLA is maybe 25,000 sqft. I think they may go smaller than that, even. A buddy in San Franciso said one was going in either the Haight or the Castro, and was supposed to be really tiny by suburban standards, around 15-20,000 sq. ft. My guess for OPP would be someone else entirely, or possibly WF.

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Interesting. I figured that if it was a CM that it would have to be scaled down, but I guess if HEB doesn't do that then it's unlikely. I'd still like to see a new CM in Houston closer to my hood some day.

I've been in a scaled down Whole Foods in Manhattan and it was very nice (and very expensive). I'd be happy to see one of those downtown as well. I guess the residents of a place like this probably won't complain about the prices as much as I do.

I like Central Market better because they have more coupons and some things are actually pretty reasonably priced considering it's a fancy store (I find orange juice and yogurt are often cheaper than Fiesta for example).

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