BLVD Place/Hanover Towers/Apache Headquarters

[Houston19514]

Nobody disputes a bunch of condos were built during the early '80s. Basically everything (apartments, office, retail, etc.. ) was overbuilt here then, as oil was on its way to $100 per barrell and Houston was the center of the world. And then the bust, over 100,000 people left town, and we had an overhang well into the '90s. But if we dispassionately look at the number of condos built- and their success- over the past 5-10 years, Houston lags behind its peer cites (Dallas and Atlanta, primarily).

Could be, although, other than the infamous and unreliable "common knowledge," nobody has shown that to actually be true. Seems like it might be, but I really don't know... In any event why do you insist on focusing only on the buildings built in the past 5-10 years? It seems likely that, if it's even true that Dallas and Atlanta have added more in the past 5-10 years, they are only now starting to catch up to the level Houston has had for quite some time. (And by the way, Houston wasn't the only city overbuilt in the 80s. Dallas was too, and they still haven't absorbed all of the overbuilt office space downtown.)

Edited March 15, 2007 by Houston19514

[buildingunbuildingrebuilding]

Could be, although, other than the infamous and unreliable "common knowledge" nobody has shown that to actually be true. Seems like it might be, but I really don't know... In any event why do you insist on focusing only on the buildings built in the past 5-10 years? It seems likely that, if it's even true that Dallas and Atlanta have added more in the past 5-10 years, they are only now starting to catch up to the level Houston has had for quite some time. (And by the way, Houston wasn't the only city overbuilt in the 80s. Dallas was too, and they still haven't absorbed all of the overbuilt office space downtown.)

a quick web search yields the following: http://www.highrises.com/city_buildings.as..._keyword=dallas

Not all new, not all condo, not necessarily everything in Dallas. But if someone wants to do a comparison, feel free.

And you are correct that the downtown Dallas office market is still in terrible shape. Never meant to suggest that Dallas is in any way better than Houston or has a stronger overall real estate market, just that it has had more condo demand over the past several years. As has Atlanta. Doesn't make Houston a bad place- I like it or wouldn't live here- just not a condo mecca (and as investors who bought condos here 25 years ago know, buying a condo here ain't necessarily all that wise anyway).

[Saddleman]

Does any of this bickering have anything to do with blvd place...way too far off topic.

[Houston19514]

Well, here's what I could find for Dallas. I cannot guarantee it is absolutely complete, but I think it's pretty thorough, and I've included everything I could find 10 floors and above, even those in relatively suburban areas, and even those under construction (both of which categories I did NOT include in my listing for Houston in post # 213 above), and even with all that, I still only came up with 28 buildings, compared to my listing of 39 buildings in Houston without counting suburban area buildings or buildings under construction, which would add easily a half dozen more buildings to the Houston listing. Besides the lower quantity, it appears that on the whole the Dallas buildings are substantially shorter than the Houston buildings. Looks like Dallas has a lot more catching-up to do in the area of high-rise condominium living:

The Vendome 21 floors

The Mansion Residences 10 floors ?

The Claridge 18 floors ?

The Warrington 24 floors ?

La Tour 22 floors ?

3525 Turtle Creek 22 floors ?

The Goldcrest 12 floors ?

The Mayfair 22 floors ?

Park Towers 20 floors ?

3701 Turtle Creek 12 floors ?

Residences at Ritz Carlton 23 floors

"21" 23 floors ?

The Renaissance 22 floors ?

The Plaza II on Turtle Creek 15 floors ?

W Dallas

Crestpark in Highland Park 11 floors ?

The Travis 15 floors?

1505 Elm 18 floors ?

The Bonaventure (North Dallas) 15 floors ?

Preston Tower (North Dallas) 28 floors ?

The Athena (North Dallas) 21 floors ?

Azure 31 floors (Under construction? first condo taller than 30 floors?)

The House by Starck and Yoo 28 floors (under construction)

One Arts Plaza ? (Under construction)

The Stoneleigh 21 floors (Under construction)

The Metropolitan 25 floors (Under construction)

Centrum Tower 19 floors

Lake Cliff Tower 12 floors

Feel free to propose additions and corrections.

[nmainguy]

Does any of this bickering have anything to do with blvd place...way too far off topic.

It seems it's been hijacked...again.

[buildingunbuildingrebuilding]

It seems it's been hijacked...again.

To bring it back on topic, to the extent develping condos in Houston makes sense it is at a site like this with walkable retail/restaurants.

[what]

To bring it back on topic, to the extent develping condos in Houston makes sense it is at a site like this with walkable retail/restaurants.

Wow !! You said it.

[dbigtex56]

I don't pretend to understand why, but this is just part of a larger neo-traditional movement that gains intensity from time to time. For some reason, many people are into resuscitated styles that hearken back to a bygone eras and far away places. In the 70's and 80's, faux-English and faux-Federal were the big things. Now we have faux-Mediterranian, faux-French, faux-Victorian, and faux-'urban'.

Yep, every few years for the past, oh, six or seven hundred or so.

It started with something called the Renaissance. I suppose the architectural styles of the day could be called faux-Greek or faux-Roman.

These things do not appeal to me. They are repetitive, lack creativity, and are indicative of the greater problem in society: faux-people.

So because Michelangelo repeated the architectural styles of the Renaissance (which faked the architectural styles of Greece and Rome), broke a few rules and Mannerism was born, should he be dismissed for his lack of creativity? The big fake!

(Does that makes him a faux-faux? And can you say that out loud without giggling? )

I mean, I get what you're saying. There have been some truly dreadful interpretations of the styles you mention. One wishes that architecture would exploit the advantages of modern building techniques and minimize their weaknesses. Unfortunately, exactly the opposite is quite common. It's called bad architecture, and no style is exempt - or can you enlighten us?

Strangely, the years can be kind. When Ralph Waldo Emerson visited Rochester, NY in the mid-19th century, he commented scornfully on the "pretentious" columns featured on many of the grander homes. If one was to make the same criticism today, he would be judged quite a snob; they're lovely houses.

"Politicians, ugly buildings, and whores all get respectable if they last long enough." -

Chinatown

[The Great Hizzy!]

"Politicians, ugly buildings, and whores all get respectable if they last long enough." -

Chinatown

Amen!

[TheNiche]

Uh, what part of late 1990s did you not understand?

Everything I said was very true. Very little of any magnitude was built from the late 1980s until the late 1990s. This was due to the bust that crashed down upon us and left the city completely overbuilt. Also, to compare the "downturns" in 2002-3 with what happened in the 1980s is fairly silly. Besides the oil/energy bust, we were also dealing with the S&L scandal which hit Texas VERY hard.

I concede. I must've glossed over the word "late".

A bust is a bust, though. Some are more severe, but in either case, you'd tend not to expect that a bust would be perfect timing for a wave of condo towers.

[TheNiche]

"Politicians, ugly buildings, and whores all get respectable if they last long enough." -

Chinatown

Strange how that works...

Btw, the Greco-Roman influences annoy me too. Basically any time that an architect tries to 'pay homage' to something, I get annoyed. Take the Federal Reserve building. I can't stand that blue trim! Very few people can, it seems. But it was the architect's attempt to pay homage to the original Federal Reserve building, which was built in the Moorish style with blue lines. I could personally care less, and think that we would've been better off with something free of association with anything else. Similarly, I like the general shape of Johnson's Bank of America building when viewed from afar, but could've done without the gothic and Dutch ornamentation.

But at least the above examples are themselves originial. The residential-over-retail formula is just a cookie-cutter style IMO. It should get no more respect from the architectural community as would tract housing. That is not to say that other groups, like environmentalists, humanists, etc. shouldn't take an interest, but that is apart from the aesthetic matter.

Anyway, as interesting as this discussion is, and as much as it adds to the central objective of HAIF, it is a tangent of a tangent of a tangent. So I'll back off now.

[Jonah]

I'm kind of torn by this project. On one hand I think it would be awesome to have this right near the heart of the Galleria but at the same time I don't want it to take away from the momentum that downtown will hopefully build upon with Houston Pavilions and the Finger Building. I would like to see the Pavilions established and in the minds of the Houston public before BLVD Place gets built because I feel it will compete somewhat with the Pavilions. Hopefully within the next year as the Pavilions and the Finger tower draw closer to completion we'll hear more good news about tenants signing onto Pavilions and hopefully spurring some new projects for downtown.

[KinkaidAlum]

Jonah-

I get what you are saying but I think the Pavilions and BLVD Place will be two totally separate entities that will draw from two totally different markets.

The Pavilions will draw a younger crowd to see shows at the House of Blues and to hang out at Lucky Strike. It will definitely serve the lunch time office crowd in the Houston Center and other areas as well. I also see it being used by the city to try and land larger conventions and sporting events and to give people at all the downtown hotels (the hotels do really well monday through thursday) something to do close by. It will also probably be a place for people to go pre and post game (Rockets, Comets, Aeros, Astros).

On the other hand, BLVD Place will be serving the already established near westside market. Whole Foods will draw in folks from Tanglewood, Briargrove, Memorial Villages, River Oaks, Afton Oaks, etc... With 800 units of residential planned as well as a luxury hotel, it will also serve the needs of the thousand or so people who live, work, or stay there. Depending upon the retail it is able to land, it will naturally be an extension to the Galleria.

I think there is room in Houston for both

[houstonfella]

Kincaid: u r right. Houston is over 2.2 mil folks with so much land and opportunity..... I agree on your post. Betcha lots of folks will agree as well WE ARE HOUSTON ...... no going back. :closedeyes:

[citykid09]

Ok now, its been years since this thing was announced, and nothing has happened yet. I think its pretty safe to say that it won't happen. I have seen projects announced a month before they start. They haven't even torn down the old buildings on that lot. What do you all think?

[TheNiche]

Ok now, its been years since this thing was announced, and nothing has happened yet. I think its pretty safe to say that it won't happen. I have seen projects announced a month before they start. They haven't even torn down the old buildings on that lot. What do you all think?

I think that you haven't a clue what you're talking about. The retail gods shone brightly upon this site when Whole Foods selected it for a flagship store. In addition to such a weighty anchor, the developer has extensive experience and owns a top-notch site.

Of all the proposed Uptown projects, this is probably the most likely to break ground.

[citykid09]

I think that you haven't a clue what you're talking about. The retail gods shone brightly upon this site when Whole Foods selected it for a flagship store. In addition to such a weighty anchor, the developer has extensive experience and owns a top-notch site.

Of all the proposed Uptown projects, this is probably the most likely to break ground.

Oh yeah, usually you here about stuff happening, but the flagship Whole Foods was announced probably over a year ago.

[buildingunbuildingrebuilding]

Oh yeah, usually you here about stuff happening, but the flagship Whole Foods was announced probably over a year ago.

Word on the street is that they have not made much project in retail leasing beyond Whole Foods. Hanover is slated to build high-rise apartments and they are appearently working to bring in a Ritz Carlton (with condos?), but this project does not appear to be moving forward anywhere near as quickly as might have been expected.

Edited April 24, 2007 by buildingunbuildingrebuilding

[Mister X]

How many years went by from the time that HP was announced to the time they started construction? 4?

When was BLVD announced? I'm just wondering when it really will be time to write this one off. Seems to early to give up on BLVD right now.

[Highway6]

Ok now, its been years since this thing was announced, and nothing has happened yet. I think its pretty safe to say that it won't happen. I have seen projects announced a month before they start. They haven't even torn down the old buildings on that lot. What do you all think?

I can matter-of-factly say this project is still very much a go.

There always are changes on projects this big.

Just becasue you havent heard anything, and there is nothing major to report, does not mean the cogs to getting it designed/leased/built aren't silently still turning.

[citykid09]

I can matter-of-factly say this project is still very much a go.

There always are changes on projects this big.

Just because you haven't heard anything, and there is nothing major to report, does not mean the cogs to getting it designed/leased/built aren't silently still turning.

Well when developers have projects like this, I don't think they should announce them until its time. Don't announce 6 years ahead and have people waiting on it. Do like the memorial city malls surrounding development, they announced a month before construction.

[Rio Grande Valley]

Kincaid: u r right. Houston is over 2.2 mil folks with so much land and opportunity..... I agree on your post. Betcha lots of folks will agree as well WE ARE HOUSTON ...... no going back. :closedeyes:

Once a Houstonian, always a Houstonian

Edited April 24, 2007 by Rio Grande Valley

[KinkaidAlum]

Well when developers have projects like this, I don't think they should announce them until its time. Don't announce 6 years ahead and have people waiting on it. Do like the memorial city malls surrounding development, they announced a month before construction.

The plans for Memorial City Mall were "leaked" years before construction started.

Again, projects as large as this one TAKE TIME. Relax. Go back and read what I typed on the Pavilions page. It's the same thing here TIMES TEN. They are closing a city street. They are building a new city street. They are relocating several current tenants and major players in the Houston dining scene. They are not only tearing down a strip mall (think Eatzi's) but also a residential street and the old Saks Pavilion. That is a HUGE undertaking.

It'll get really tiresome if this thread falls victim to the Pavilions syndrome which struck so many on here.

[TheNiche]

Well when developers have projects like this, I don't think they should announce them until its time. Don't announce 6 years ahead and have people waiting on it. Do like the memorial city malls surrounding development, they announced a month before construction.

And how are they supposed to market themselves to retailers without publicizing their proposal?

...besides, all it takes is one such retailer to go to the Chronicle, and suddenly Wulfe would've had to have dealt with the publicity at a time not of his choosing and on somebody else's terms, a la Weingarten. In contrast, they *could* just make a reporter's life easy, spill the beans, get some publicity for their project in a way that is constructive and posed entirely as a 'Yay Houston' article as opposed to a 'Pro/Con' article. If you were him, which path would you take?

[houston-development]

And how are they supposed to market themselves to retailers without publicizing their proposal?

...besides, all it takes is one such retailer to go to the Chronicle, and suddenly Wulfe would've had to have dealt with the publicity at a time not of his choosing and on somebody else's terms, a la Weingarten. In contrast, they *could* just make a reporter's life easy, spill the beans, get some publicity for their project in a way that is constructive and posed entirely as a 'Yay Houston' article as opposed to a 'Pro/Con' article. If you were him, which path would you take?

the niche speaks the truth.

as a side note, hanover still plans to move forward with 1 tower where the palm reader currently resides. its considered, in their minds, a done deal.

doesnt mean it wont happen; however, i would be absolutely shocked and floored if it didnt.

[Pumapayam]

as a side note, hanover still plans to move forward with 1 tower where the palm reader currently resides. its considered, in their minds, a done deal.

The palm reader is leaving, how about the rest of the homes in that row?

[bkjones98]

This website cracks me up. Half of you sound like aspiring Donald Trumps.

I, of course, am immune from pedantic writing.

[houston-development]

The palm reader is leaving, how about the rest of the homes in that row?

im 99.999% sure they are already demolished.

[TheNiche]

This website cracks me up. Half of you sound like aspiring Donald Trumps.

I would like to think that I've got better hair.

[buildingunbuildingrebuilding]

I would like to think that I've got better hair.

It's close.

[Houston19514]

I would like to think that I've got better hair.

Something tells me you paid less for yours... ;-)

[TheNiche]

Something tells me you paid less for yours... ;-)

Basically nothing, as scraggly as its gotten. I just haven't had any time over the past month to kill the beast.

...still, I'd like to think it better than Trump's.

[Trae]

A month! I get a fresh cut every two-three weeks. At least an edge up every week and a half or so.

Edited April 27, 2007 by Trae

[TheNiche]

A month! I get a fresh cut every two-three weeks. At least an edge up every week and a half or so.

...and that's a month after I'd usually have gotten another cut. And I'm frugal, so it is usually one cut per two months.

...still, I'd like to think my hair better than Trump's.

Edited April 27, 2007 by TheNiche

[Montrose1100]

...and that's a month after I'd usually have gotten another cut. And I'm frugal, so it is usually one cut per two months.

...still, I'd like to think my hair better than Trump's.

I've see crack heads with better hair then Trump.

[Mister X]

I've seen people with NO hair with better hair than Trump. Actually, I've seen people with no HEAD with better hair than Trump.

Edited April 28, 2007 by Mister X

[Houston19514]

Basically nothing, as scraggly as its gotten. I just haven't had any time over the past month to kill the beast.

...still, I'd like to think it better than Trump's.

LOL I was actually referring to the price of the hair itself. Not the price of the haircuts/stying. ;-)

(And we may have just set a record for veering wildly off topic) :-)

Edited April 28, 2007 by Houston19514

[Gary]

A month! I get a fresh cut every two-three weeks. At least an edge up every week and a half or so.

Man I haven't had a haircut in a year.

[what]

It sure didn't take long for this topic to fizzle....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Watch4Snakes]

It appears that someone just mentioned that (or just questioned about) a row of residences along the west/back side of the project already being demolished. (South of the home of the fortune teller.) If this is the case, would this be an indication of a positive direction being taken in the development? Or, is the razing of these structures not true?

I thought it was simply Fashion Square and The Pavillions that was being torn down. I did not realize single-family homes were being demolished. And, is there an old assited-living facility that is being rid of as well?

Perhaps photographs of the alledged demolition would appease some individuals....add some fuel-to-the fire for their talking points...whatever they may be.

And, at least, it would GET THIS THREAD BACK ON TOPIC....AGAIN!

[what]

It sure didn't take long for this topic to fizzle....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

If you can't beat them...Who is a good barber in that area anyway ?

[houston-development]

It appears that someone just mentioned that (or just questioned about) a row of residences along the west/back side of the project already being demolished. (South of the home of the fortune teller.) If this is the case, would this be an indication of a positive direction being taken in the development? Or, is the razing of these structures not true?

all of the homes south of the palm reader are gone; nothing but grass and trees.

unfortunately i was unable to take pictures because someone decided to steal my camera

if you dont want to take my word for it, no hard feelings. feel free to drive over there and see for yourself.

[ProHouston]

all of the homes south of the palm reader are gone; nothing but grass and trees.

unfortunately i was unable to take pictures because someone decided to steal my camera

if you dont want to take my word for it, no hard feelings. feel free to drive over there and see for yourself.

I can vouch for this as I have a partial view of the area from my office. All I see in that area now are trees and land. They are making progress on this project, it's just happening slowly.

[TexasArchitect]

yup, but this project will be on it's way

[lockmat]

[Mister X]

I know it's just a rendering and shouldn't be taken too seriously, but is that a 50 story tower in the middle? I like these renderings better than the old ones. It looks more "space age". I like it, it's fun, clean, colorful and modern.

Just wish they'd lose the narrow parking lot that faces post oak. That parking lot almost seems like a superficial add-on. It's too small to provide any real benefit or convenience. It's almost like they had to go out of there way to make the front of this development look less pedestrian friendly. I don't mind the buildings being set back from the street, but a nice extra wide sidewalk with some beautiful fountains and shade trees would be fantastic where that narrow parking lot will be. The part that faces San Felipe (I think) looks great though.

So when's groundbreaking?

Edited June 14, 2007 by Mister X

[Subdude]

I agree the towers look nice. I don't have a problem with the parking lot in front. I can't see Post Oak becoming some major pedestrian boulevard, and perhaps the sight of parking in front will make BLVD more attractive to drivers going by.

[TexasArchitect]

So when's groundbreaking?

should be soon, but the tenants demands are what is holding up this project...

[fernz]

I agree the towers look nice. I don't have a problem with the parking lot in front. I can't see Post Oak becoming some major pedestrian boulevard, and perhaps the sight of parking in front will make BLVD more attractive to drivers going by.

They do look nice, but they look too commercial. Isn't the tall one supposed to be apartments? I bet these are just massing representations and the towers themselves (at least the residential one) will not look anything like it.

Is Wulfe developing all of it or is he only doing the retail and partnering with other developers who do have office / residential experience to do those portions? There has been talk on this forum that Hanover will be doing the residential component. That would make it even more likely that the towers will look very different from what's shown on the renderings. I don't think it's a coincidence that the renderings show a lot more detail on the retail components than on the towers.

As for the parking lot on Post Oak, Wulfe knows from his experience that retailers in Houston will not sign a lease if they don't have parking in front of their storefronts. It's a business decision that has nothing to do with the urban character of Post Oak.

[tanith27]

The whole foods in seattle has large underground parking so maybe they'll plan for something like that here. I know theres a flooding issue in Houston, but I've also seen some stores that have rooftop parking as well......I can't imagine wfmi building a flagship grocery store there without planning for sufficient parking, even if the drawings dont seem to depict any.