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Prediction on BLVD Place:

Wulff (sp?) waits too long and misses the market for the upscale hotel he has been trying unsuccessfully to court for the past 2+ years. He realizes the land prices in the market have increased so dramatically that he (gasp!) ends up selling off out parcels to other developers who are willing to actually develop the site.

I know, I know. He has a plan and has everything under control, yet under wraps.

I know Whole Foods is a done deal. Hanover (allegedly) is a done deal. However, nothing else seems to be moving.

The longer nothing happens, the more this deal smells.

Greetings and salutations.

TNJ

Wow, there sure are a lot of pessimists on this board. It sounds like HP all over again. You needn't worry though, BLVD will be built.

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Wow, there sure are a lot of pessimists on this board. It sounds like HP all over again. You needn't worry though, BLVD will be built.

Gee. You beat me to it.

It does sound like how SOMEONE kept saying that HP isn't going to happen. I'm sure a few people are convinced construction will stop any moment as soon as they realize it wasn't supposed to be built yet.

I think a HAIF project needs to be done on google maps or something. It's getting hard to visualize all the projects going on in the various places.

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Or, maybe he means like...

The Houston Pavilions

or the Cosmopolitan

or the Memorial Hermann Memorial City Tower

or the Memorial Hermann Tower in the TMC

or the major expansion of Texas Children's

or the Kirby at Westheimer development

or the Seven Riverway

or the Westin and Sheraton Memorial City

or the Belle Meade at River Oaks

or the Post Midtown expansion

or the Edge

or the Pointe

or the Collaborative Center at Rice

or the Methodist Research Institute

or the Faculty Center Tower

or the Outpatient Care Center at Methodist

or the Sysco Headquarters

or Granite Westchase II

or the Dominion Post Oak being so successful that Whiteco is planning on adding twin towers nearby

or the 1200 Post Oak

or maybe the fact that 3-5 years after most everyone predicted the demise of one or more of downtown's new(er) hotels, they are doing quite well and there are rumors of some new entry brands to the downtown market?

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Or, maybe he means like...

The Houston Pavilions

or the Cosmopolitan

or the Memorial Hermann Memorial City Tower

or the Memorial Hermann Tower in the TMC

or the major expansion of Texas Children's

or the Kirby at Westheimer development

or the Seven Riverway

or the Westin and Sheraton Memorial City

or the Belle Meade at River Oaks

or the Post Midtown expansion

or the Edge

or the Pointe

or the Collaborative Center at Rice

or the Methodist Research Institute

or the Faculty Center Tower

or the Outpatient Care Center at Methodist

or the Sysco Headquarters

or Granite Westchase II

or the Dominion Post Oak being so successful that Whiteco is planning on adding twin towers nearby

or the 1200 Post Oak

or maybe the fact that 3-5 years after most everyone predicted the demise of one or more of downtown's new(er) hotels, they are doing quite well and there are rumors of some new entry brands to the downtown market?

Very impressive response on such short notice. Seriously, not sure where you compiled the list but kudos.

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TNJ, I thought you were in the development business. How can someone in the development business be so pessimistic without being suicidal? ;-) I ask with respect, because unbuilt projects and delayed projects are part and parcel of the development world, and not just in Houston.

(and btw, excellent post up there, Kinkaid)

Edited by Houston19514
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Did you mean it Sounds like Shamrock

or Redstone

or Orion

or Westcreek?

Just trying to keep perspective on pessimism....

:rolleyes:

TNJ

Anyone who knew the developer knew Shamrock wouldn't get built. Orion should have been built, but the 2 codevelopers had a major falling out and it got all screwed up. I wouldn't count out Westcreek just yet, although that is going to take some time.

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Projects in every city get cancelled or fall through. Plenty of projects have died in Dallas and Atlanta as well. I think we notice it more because we look for news about Houston every day. We only hear about ever other city a couple times a month when a project breaks ground or is announced. Plenty of those announce projects in other cities die, we just don't hear about it....

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Or, maybe he means like...

The Houston Pavilions

or the Cosmopolitan

or the Memorial Hermann Memorial City Tower

or the Memorial Hermann Tower in the TMC

or the major expansion of Texas Children's

or the Kirby at Westheimer development

or the Seven Riverway

or the Westin and Sheraton Memorial City

or the Belle Meade at River Oaks

or the Post Midtown expansion

or the Edge

or the Pointe

or the Collaborative Center at Rice

or the Methodist Research Institute

or the Faculty Center Tower

or the Outpatient Care Center at Methodist

or the Sysco Headquarters

or Granite Westchase II

or the Dominion Post Oak being so successful that Whiteco is planning on adding twin towers nearby

or the 1200 Post Oak

or maybe the fact that 3-5 years after most everyone predicted the demise of one or more of downtown's new(er) hotels, they are doing quite well and there are rumors of some new entry brands to the downtown market?

I wouldn't put expansion of medical and educational institutions in the same realm of uncertainty as mixed-use projects and urban developments. People on this board tend to be pessimistic because urban projects have a horrid time getting off the ground in this town. There has started to be a few successes, but those of us who watched one proposal after another fail for Main St. in Midtown can understand why an urbanist in Houston can be pessimistic. A recent Chronicle article about the financial difficulties of mixed-use projects and how Houston has fallen behind peer cities is not encouraging either. But I hope you're right, and that this and other proposed projects will get built.

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I wouldn't put expansion of medical and educational institutions in the same realm of uncertainty as mixed-use projects and urban developments. People on this board tend to be pessimistic because urban projects have a horrid time getting off the ground in this town. There has started to be a few successes, but those of us who watched one proposal after another fail for Main St. in Midtown can understand why an urbanist in Houston can be pessimistic. A recent Chronicle article about the financial difficulties of mixed-use projects and how Houston has fallen behind peer cities is not encouraging either. But I hope you're right, and that this and other proposed projects will get built.

Our lack of zoning actually contributes to the dearth of mixed use project as opposed to other cities. The difficulty in getting zoning approval in some cites lets cities steer the kind of develoment they want. Here we can build whatever makes most economic sense (not that this is a bad thing), which means we go with what we know can get done and be profitable. But once land prices reach a certain level, we are seeing developers trying to get creative to ring maximum value out of sites like BLVD Place. We shall see whether it works.

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There has started to be a few successes, but those of us who watched one proposal after another fail for Main St. in Midtown can understand why an urbanist in Houston can be pessimistic.

I can only think of Shamrock and the twin medical office buildings in Midtown that seemed like a joke from the very first day that they were announced. Hardy Yards, where N. Main passes through, also doesn't count because neither McCall Street Partners or Cypress ever had any intention of developing that site.

In contrast, I can think of the Metro HQ/Downtown TC, Houston Pavilions, 1000 Main, Byrd Lofts, Hotel Zaza, renovations to Hermann Park, Memorial Hermann Medical Plaza, the Memorial Hermann Vascular Institute, Methodist Outpatient Center, A&M School of Nursing, the Rice Collaborative Center, and the gradual return of desirable retail along S. Main inside of the loop.

Proposed are Metro's Intermodal Facility, Sunset Coffee Building, Camden's Superblock, and Texas Children's two massive buildings. Each of these will likely happen in the forseeable future, along with other projects that I'm sure will come up in time.

A recent Chronicle article about the financial difficulties of mixed-use projects and how Houston has fallen behind peer cities is not encouraging either.

Only part of the article was negative, and I'd even call it more "cautious" than "negative". It has taken a long while for this kind of momentum to build up, and it is reasonable to believe that some of the projects won't make it or that they might even make it but fall flat on their face if poorly executed.

Btw, folks, the ones that Nancy knows about aren't the only ones in the running!

Edited by TheNiche
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I wouldn't put expansion of medical and educational institutions in the same realm of uncertainty as mixed-use projects and urban developments. People on this board tend to be pessimistic because urban projects have a horrid time getting off the ground in this town. There has started to be a few successes, but those of us who watched one proposal after another fail for Main St. in Midtown can understand why an urbanist in Houston can be pessimistic. A recent Chronicle article about the financial difficulties of mixed-use projects and how Houston has fallen behind peer cities is not encouraging either. But I hope you're right, and that this and other proposed projects will get built.

The Chronicle is unrelentingly negative as well, especially its real estate and development "reporters". (Remember, this is the paper that reported with awe and wonder, the proposed 2727 Kirby as Houston finally breaking into high-rise living, at long last joining Dallas and Atlanta, seemingly unaware of the literally dozens of high-rise buildings that have been scattered about inner Houston for decades.) Are Houston's peer cities really that much ahead of Houston in mixed-use urban developments? I wonder...

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The Chronicle is unrelentingly negative as well, especially its real estate and development "reporters". (Remember, this is the paper that reported with awe and wonder, the proposed 2727 Kirby as Houston finally breaking into high-rise living, at long last joining Dallas and Atlanta, seemingly unaware of the literally dozens of high-rise buildings that have been scattered about inner Houston for decades.) Are Houston's peer cities really that much ahead of Houston in mixed-use urban developments? I wonder...

No, but the idea is not in this case to emphasize negativity for its own sake, but to elicit a sense of change and excitement among a non-industry audience. Whether such feelings are at all based upon truth is of course irrelevant. Can you imagine how quickly Nancy would get the boot if she tried to write an article like is typically written by GlobeSt.com?

Although not perfect, Sarnoff is actually one of the better reporters at the Chronicle. Everyone else that I or any coworkers have ever had any interaction with that has tried to cover a real estate or a related topic has unappologetically misquoted input. Most recently, one reporter replaced an entire phrase (within quotation marks), complete with numerical data, with their own phrase/data.

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Westcreek is being built, they already cleared the Central Ford Dealership to make way for it.

Puma, Westcreek exists. They are the apartments adjacent to the former Central Ford Dealership that are owned by a seperate entity than owns the Central Ford site. Westrcreek is supposed to be torn down to make way for the 'Oaks District'.

Anything built on the Central Ford site would (at this point) be a seperate development not integrated with the 'Oaks District'.

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I can only think of Shamrock and the twin medical office buildings in Midtown that seemed like a joke from the very first day that they were announced. Hardy Yards, where N. Main passes through, also doesn't count because neither McCall Street Partners or Cypress ever had any intention of developing that site.

In contrast, I can think of the Metro HQ/Downtown TC, Houston Pavilions, 1000 Main, Byrd Lofts, Hotel Zaza, renovations to Hermann Park, Memorial Hermann Medical Plaza, the Memorial Hermann Vascular Institute, Methodist Outpatient Center, A&M School of Nursing, the Rice Collaborative Center, and the gradual return of desirable retail along S. Main inside of the loop.

Proposed are Metro's Intermodal Facility, Sunset Coffee Building, Camden's Superblock, and Texas Children's two massive buildings. Each of these will likely happen in the forseeable future, along with other projects that I'm sure will come up in time.

Only part of the article was negative, and I'd even call it more "cautious" than "negative". It has taken a long while for this kind of momentum to build up, and it is reasonable to believe that some of the projects won't make it or that they might even make it but fall flat on their face if poorly executed.

Btw, folks, the ones that Nancy knows about aren't the only ones in the running!

Once again Niche, we are talking about mixed-use... I don't know what an outpatient center, renovations to Hermann Park, or most of the other stuff you name have to do with any of this. By contrast, everything proposed for the superblock has failed, Pointe Center Midtown failed, and the mixed-use developments discussed by Metro at Wheeler and in the Medical Center as far as I know are history. If you recall the hubbub before the opening of the Main St. line, it was supposed to spark a renaissance of new urbanism in Midtown. Remember the Main St. Master Plan? So far we haven't seen one development go up on Main St. in Midtown.

I'm not saying that good things aren't going to be built - they're starting to be - but I can understand why people would be pessimistic about the success of mixed-use of Houston. Since some of you are so adept at making lists (whether the things listed are pertinent to the discussion or not), would someone please list for me all the mixed-use projects that have been built in Houston WITHOUT government aid?

Yes Houston 19514, we are behind peer cities in this regard, specifically Dallas and Atlanta.

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Or, maybe he means like...

or maybe the fact that 3-5 years after most everyone predicted the demise of one or more of downtown's new(er) hotels, they are doing quite well and there are rumors of some new entry brands to the downtown market?

Very apropos, given that The New Juniper was one of those who predicted just that.

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Once again Niche, we are talking about mixed-use... I don't know what an outpatient center, renovations to Hermann Park, or most of the other stuff you name have to do with any of this.

I predict that the mixed-use concept as is touted by every urban planner and his dog will one day be considered a fad of the early 21st Century. It is a buzz word of first resort. In my eyes, urban means density. Pure and simple. It does not matter whether uses are across a block from one another.

By contrast, everything proposed for the superblock has failed, Pointe Center Midtown failed, and the mixed-use developments discussed by Metro at Wheeler and in the Medical Center as far as I know are history. If you recall the hubbub before the opening of the Main St. line, it was supposed to spark a renaissance of new urbanism in Midtown. Remember the Main St. Master Plan? So far we haven't seen one development go up on Main St. in Midtown.

As far as what was touted for Midtown, with this notion that it would become a strip of ubiquitous residential-over-retail and little else, I feel sorry for anyone that bought into the idea. They were misled by a cadre of private-sector firms with financial interests in that neighborhood as well as by a transit agency with a poorly-conceived pet project. They needed popular support, and they got it by appealing to the naive and ill-informed.

Btw, the superblock hasn't failed. Neither has the Wheeler TOD site. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

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I predict that the mixed-use concept as is touted by every urban planner and his dog will one day be considered a fad of the early 21st Century. It is a buzz word of first resort. In my eyes, urban means density. Pure and simple. It does not matter whether uses are across a block from one another.

VERY good point.

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Can you give us examples?

I don't know what the names of the projects are, but it is common knowledge that many mixed-use developments have been done in both those cities. Sarnoff even mentioned in that recent article that such projects were more common in those places. If you think that Houston with its two mixed-use projects under construction downtown and its one mixed-use apartment complex in Midtown is not dead last among major American cities in this category, you can go on believing that, but I would like to clear up that misconception if I can. Delusion will not make Houston a better city.

Niche, if you don't like the idea of mixed-use development, that is fine. You are wrong about it being a 21st century fad - it has actually been around ever since people started building dense cities, and its continuing importance in the age of suburban development has been understood at least since Jane Jacobs wrote her book ca. 1960. And if you think that all that is important in urban development is density, "pure and simple," then enjoy your pleasant urban stroll down Milam St. I will continue to hope for something better.

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Niche, if you don't like the idea of mixed-use development, that is fine. You are wrong about it being a 21st century fad - it has actually been around ever since people started building dense cities, and its continuing importance in the age of suburban development has been understood at least since Jane Jacobs wrote her book ca. 1960. And if you think that all that is important in urban development is density, "pure and simple," then enjoy your pleasant urban stroll down Milam St. I will continue to hope for something better.

You misunderstand the practical justification for mixed-use. Historically, the vast majority of people had only their feet to move them. Horses only were available to a wealthy few within cities. As a result, verticality and mixed-use (essentially an effort to cram as much as possible onto every square inch of land) were a practical necessity among cities, not merely a style. That is a very critical difference, and I cite for you places like The Woodlands and Sugar Land Town Squares as places that have absolutely no justification from the realm of necessity. They are built because consumer tastes demand it (for the time being).

I don't pretend to understand why, but this is just part of a larger neo-traditional movement that gains intensity from time to time. For some reason, many people are into resuscitated styles that hearken back to a bygone eras and far away places. In the 70's and 80's, faux-English and faux-Federal were the big things. Now we have faux-Mediterranian, faux-French, faux-Victorian, and faux-'urban'. These things do not appeal to me. They are repetitive, lack creativity, and are indicative of the greater problem in society: faux-people.

Btw, I like most of Milam Street. It is authentic.

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I don't know what the names of the projects are, but it is common knowledge that many mixed-use developments have been done in both those cities. Sarnoff even mentioned in that recent article that such projects were more common in those places. If you think that Houston with its two mixed-use projects under construction downtown and its one mixed-use apartment complex in Midtown is not dead last among major American cities in this category, you can go on believing that, but I would like to clear up that misconception if I can. Delusion will not make Houston a better city.

Calm down man. I asked for examples because I just don't know, and without seeing examples I'm not willing to accept "common knowledge" because "common knowledge" is very often wrong. (For example, it is "common knowledge" that Houston has the dirtiest air, the fattest people and the worst traffic in America... None of those are true.)

I realize Ms. Sarnoff mentioned that in the recent article. That was in fact the genesis of my inquiry. But remember, Ms. Sarnoff is the same "reporter" who told us that with the construction of 2727 Kirby, Houston was at long last beginning to catch up with Dallas and Atlanta with high-rise condominiums, apparently oblivious to the dozens of high-rises that have been scattered around central Houston for decades. Sorry, but I need a more reliable source than Sarnoff.

Is anybody else here familiar enough with Dallas or Atlanta (or Austin or Phoenix, two other cities that, according to Sarnoff are ahead of Houston) to be able to throw out some examples of the mixed-use projects in those cities?

Edited by Houston19514
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Calm down man. I asked for examples because I just don't know, and without seeing examples I'm not willing to accept "common knowledge" because "common knowledge" is very often wrong. (For example, it is "common knowledge" that Houston has the dirtiest air, the fattest people and the worst traffic in America... None of those are true.)

I realize Ms. Sarnoff mentioned that in the recent article. That was in fact the genesis of my inquiry. But remember, Ms. Sarnoff is the same "reporter" who told us that with the construction of 2727 Kirby, Houston was at long last beginning to catch up with Dallas and Atlanta with high-rise condominiums, apparently oblivious to the dozens of high-rises that have been scattered around central Houston for decades. Sorry, but I need a more reliable source than Sarnoff.

Is anybody else here familiar enough with Dallas or Atlanta (or Austin or Phoenix, two other cities that, according to Sarnoff are ahead of Houston) to be able to throw out some examples of the mixed-use projects in those cities?

I really can't think of much in Atlanta that is mixed use ??? Atlanta seems like it has a lot of condo-buildings. i will tell you an odd thing that i noticed about atlanta. it seemed to have a lot of sex-toys-shops everywhere in the buck-head area and they just kind of blended in...even close to nice neighborhoods.

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Calm down man. I asked for examples because I just don't know, and without seeing examples I'm not willing to accept "common knowledge" because "common knowledge" is very often wrong. (For example, it is "common knowledge" that Houston has the dirtiest air, the fattest people and the worst traffic in America... None of those are true.)

I realize Ms. Sarnoff mentioned that in the recent article. That was in fact the genesis of my inquiry. But remember, Ms. Sarnoff is the same "reporter" who told us that with the construction of 2727 Kirby, Houston was at long last beginning to catch up with Dallas and Atlanta with high-rise condominiums, apparently oblivious to the dozens of high-rises that have been scattered around central Houston for decades. Sorry, but I need a more reliable source than Sarnoff.

Is anybody else here familiar enough with Dallas or Atlanta (or Austin or Phoenix, two other cities that, according to Sarnoff are ahead of Houston) to be able to throw out some examples of the mixed-use projects in those cities?

Dallas seems to have more mixed use- Victory and West Village are examples of fiarly large projects in the city, along with Mockingbird and their Galleria. Once you get out to the suburbs Southlake has an extensive town square, Legacy Town Center, Richardson is building one near transit, Frisco near the minor league ball park. This is just off the top of my head.

Austin gets mixed use because they want it, and with their tight zoning and strong neighborhood groups they can better dictate development.

Both Dallas and Atlanta seem to have a much more vibrant hirise condo market, although both are in danger of being overbuilt. Scottsdale (suburban Phoenix) has a rediculous amount of new or anounced condos, but Phoenix isn't really any more urban of a city than Houston.

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You misunderstand the practical justification for mixed-use. Historically, the vast majority of people had only their feet to move them. Horses only were available to a wealthy few within cities. As a result, verticality and mixed-use (essentially an effort to cram as much as possible onto every square inch of land) were a practical necessity among cities, not merely a style. That is a very critical difference, and I cite for you places like The Woodlands and Sugar Land Town Squares as places that have absolutely no justification from the realm of necessity. They are built because consumer tastes demand it (for the time being).

I don't pretend to understand why, but this is just part of a larger neo-traditional movement that gains intensity from time to time. For some reason, many people are into resuscitated styles that hearken back to a bygone eras and far away places. In the 70's and 80's, faux-English and faux-Federal were the big things. Now we have faux-Mediterranian, faux-French, faux-Victorian, and faux-'urban'. These things do not appeal to me. They are repetitive, lack creativity, and are indicative of the greater problem in society: faux-people.

Btw, I like most of Milam Street. It is authentic.

Mixed-use is not a style the way Mediterranean, French, and Victorian are. It's a pattern of development that clusters multiple uses in the same place to ensure a constant stream of human traffic and, thus, vibrancy and sense of place. What I don't like about Milam St. is that there are a bunch of austere office towers and little else (I'm thinking mainly south of Texas Ave.), so that what you end up with is a dead environment. In fact, most of downtown Houston is like this (except for the historic district, which was built when mixed-use was still a "necessity").

You said that all you cared about as far as urbanism goes is density, "pure and simple." Well downtown Houston is plenty dense, but it does not, for the most part, offer a lively environment (again, the historic district is the exception). The return of mixed-use is an attempt to recognize what made the urban environments of the past "tick" the way they did, and to undo the deadening effect of all the single-use developments of the 60's and 70's.

If you don't like it, fine. Enjoy Milam St. I frankly don't know why we are having this conversation. I started out by saying that I can understand why an urbanist in Houston would be pessimistic, given past defeats of mixed-use development. If you don't like mixed-use development and don't understand why other people do, then there are plenty of other conversations on this forum for you to stick your head into. Insinuating that people like myself who do like it are "faux-people" is not constructive in any way, and will only add to the reputation you have earned for yourself on this forum.

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I realize Ms. Sarnoff mentioned that in the recent article. That was in fact the genesis of my inquiry. But remember, Ms. Sarnoff is the same "reporter" who told us that with the construction of 2727 Kirby, Houston was at long last beginning to catch up with Dallas and Atlanta with high-rise condominiums, apparently oblivious to the dozens of high-rises that have been scattered around central Houston for decades. Sorry, but I need a more reliable source than Sarnoff.

I can't speak for her but is it possible she meant high-rise condominium construction, which Houston has appeared to be a step behind in the general recent years compared to some of it's comparable counterparts? I'm sure she is aware of the highrise condo buildings in Houston.

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