When Rumsfeld lied about Rumsfeld's lies..

[nmainguy]

I'm sure all well-informed HAIFers watched the Rumsfeld incident today.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&cl...46782341272B262

Rumsfeld said Bush, who made the threat posed by Iraq's weapons his main justification for war, also "spent weeks and weeks with the Central Intelligence people" before making his case to the American people.

"They gave the world their honest opinion," Rumsfeld added. "It appears that there were no weapons of mass destruction."

McGovern shot back, "You said you knew where they were", referring to the Iraqi weapons.

"I did not," Rumsfeld retorted. "I said I knew where suspect sites were."

"You said you know where they were, near Tikrit, near Baghdad, and north, east, south and west of there. Those are your words," McGovern shot back.

"I'd just like an honest answer," McGovern added. "We're talking about lies," also mentioning the administration's assertions of prewar ties between Iraq and al-Qaeda.

A week and a half into the war, Rumsfeld was asked on March 30, 2003, on ABC's This Week with George Stephanopoulos, whether he found it curious that US forces had not yet found weapons of mass destruction.

"Not at all," Rumsfeld responded, according to a Pentagon transcript of the interview.

"We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat," Rumsfeld stated.

So who thinks "honest opinions" have led to the deaths of almost 3000 of our kids or is Rumsfeld just lying to cover his own ass or Bush's-or both...because however you cut it, it's all just the Big Lie.

Clearly this topic does not belong in Traffic and Transportation and clearly I screwed up. Could editor get it moved into way off topic politics as I clearly am clueless when it comes to forum formatting

[dp2]

Clearly that's not the only thing you are clueless about.

[ssullivan]

I've moved this to the Way Off Topic Politics forum, where it should be.

And everyone remember that friendly political debate is fine, but let's avoid personal insults and name calling directed at other members.

[nmainguy]

I've moved this to the Way Off Topic Politics forum, where it should be.

And everyone remember that friendly political debate is fine, but let's avoid personal insults and name calling directed at other members.

Thanks for moving it, Sulli. Couldn't have done it with out ya!

[TJones]

Thanks for moving it, Sulli. Couldn't have done it with out ya!

SO nmain, was it ok for those people to keep standing up every 3 or 4 minutes and start screaming there OWN lies at Rumsfeld ? I would think that you would denounce that kind of behavior .

[RedScare]

I would think that you would denounce that kind of behavior .

Denounce people exercising their right to free speech? Why would nmain do that? And why do so many Americans have such disdain for the very rights that make this country better than others? Just this week, I have heard people say that protesters should be at work, instead of protesting, denounced others for translating the Anthem, denounce speakers who question the Defense Secretary with his own words, criticize the Mousaui jury for doing it's job, and make more demands that religion be sanctioned by government.

I understand disagreeing with the OPINIONS expressed, but what IS it with "patriotic" Americans who denounce our very own Bill of Rights? Can someone explain how that is patriotic?

[dbigtex56]

What Red said.

SO nmain, was it ok for those people to keep standing up every 3 or 4 minutes and start screaming there OWN lies at Rumsfeld ? I would think that you would denounce that kind of behavior .

I don't know that they were screaming. And I don't know that what they said were lies. Do you? What they were doing is asking Rumsfeld to explain what by any reasonable standard are lies. Lies told by him. And I think that's a pretty reasonable request to make of an elected official.

PS: Rumsfeld didn't explain.

[713 To 214]

I understand disagreeing with the OPINIONS expressed, but what IS it with "patriotic" Americans who denounce our very own Bill of Rights? Can someone explain how that is patriotic?

Ignorance!!! Most people don't even understand what their rights are under The Constitution and Bill of Rights, much less when they are contradicting them.

[nmainguy]

SO nmain, was it ok for those people to keep standing up every 3 or 4 minutes and start screaming there OWN lies at Rumsfeld ? I would think that you would denounce that kind of behavior .

I was posting about ex CIA officer McGovern confronting Rumsfeld. I don't denounce anyone from exercising their freedom of speech-lies or not-but I think you know that already.

[TJones]

Denounce people exercising their right to free speech? Why would nmain do that? And why do so many Americans have such disdain for the very rights that make this country better than others? Just this week, I have heard people say that protesters should be at work, instead of protesting, denounced others for translating the Anthem, denounce speakers who question the Defense Secretary with his own words, criticize the Mousaui jury for doing it's job, and make more demands that religion be sanctioned by government.

I understand disagreeing with the OPINIONS expressed, but what IS it with "patriotic" Americans who denounce our very own Bill of Rights? Can someone explain how that is patriotic?

Tut, tut, Wasn't it you and nmain who were so upset over the Delay supporters protesting Mr. Lampson's announcement ? After all, they were just exercising their right to free speech.

What Red said.

I don't know that they were screaming. And I don't know that what they said were lies. Do you? What they were doing is asking Rumsfeld to explain what by any reasonable standard are lies. Lies told by him. And I think that's a pretty reasonable request to make of an elected official.

PS: Rumsfeld didn't explain.

You apparently didn't see the rest of the story where he DID explain it to the Ex-Spook of the CIA. He answered his questions, the other ones that were removed were NOT asking questions, they were speaking out of turn, and YELLING, that Rumsfeld was a murderer, and other such non-sense. Watch the video again.

[RedScare]

Tut, tut, Wasn't it you and namain who were so upset over the Delay supporters protesting Mr. Lampson's announcement ? After all, they were just exercising their right to free speech.

You apparently didn't see the rest of the story where he DID explain it to the Ex-Spook of the CIA. He answered his questions, the other ones that were removed were NOT asking questions, they were speaking out of turn, and YELLING, that Rumsfeld was a murderer, and other such non-sense. Watch the video again.

Funny you should bring that up. The DeLay supporters shouted down Lampson as opposed to debating him. In other words, they denied Lampson HIS right to speak...and bragged about it.

Mr. McGovern, on the other hand, BEGGED Mr. Rumsfeld to explain his statements. And, I too, am still waiting for Rummy's response.

Kudos to 713 to 214, for the shortest correct answer (one word).

[TJones]

Funny you should bring that up. The DeLay supporters shouted down Lampson as opposed to debating him. In other words, they denied Lampson HIS right to speak...and bragged about it.

Mr. McGovern, on the other hand, BEGGED Mr. Rumsfeld to explain his statements. And, I too, am still waiting for Rummy's response.

Kudos to 713 to 214, for the shortest correct answer (one word).

I still don't see you calling THESE people, "boorish", or "goons", or on their "lack of etiquette", or even "lowlifes". Where is your name calling now ? That's not very liberal of you. Obviously these people couldn't WAIT for the question and answer period, so it would seem that THEY didn't want to debate either, just shout Rumsfeld down.

BTW, I will not stoop to that level of name calling, I am sure that these people THINK they have a legitimate GRIPE with Rumsfeld, so yes, they are entitled to speak at will, but not be slanderous, you know that Counselor.

[RedScare]

Calling a statement a lie when the statement is shown not to be true is not slander. I am sorry that you cannot differentiate between interrupting a speech to ask a question, and several dozen people shouting at the top of their lungs, so that one cannot be heard at all. I will leave to you to ponder the difference...or not.

Perhaps you were not interested in the answer to Mr. McGovern's question. Perhaps, as a parent, you wanted to know the answers to the TOUGH questions, like this one...

"Other audience members in Atlanta were gentler. One asked about "what happened in your childhood to make you the man you are today? This might help some parents, because you're a great man."

(I am told, Mr. Rumsfeld responded, "My mother dropped me on my head as a child".)

[TJones]

Calling a statement a lie when the statement is shown not to be true is not slander. I am sorry that you cannot differentiate between interrupting a speech to ask a question, and several dozen people shouting at the top of their lungs, so that one cannot be heard at all. I will leave to you to ponder the difference...or not.

Perhaps you were not interested in the answer to Mr. McGovern's question. Perhaps, as a parent, you wanted to know the answers to the TOUGH questions, like this one...

"Other audience members in Atlanta were gentler. One asked about "what happened in your childhood to make you the man you are today? This might help some parents, because you're a great man."

(I am told, Mr. Rumsfeld responded, "My mother dropped me on my head as a child".)

Ok, so explain to me what question the young man in the black shirt was asking when he just popped off that Rumsfeld was a murderer and that he should be impeached just like the President should be impeached.

Also, was he being "boorish" or was he being a "goon" ?

[RedScare]

Frankly, I think he was being patriotic.

[nmainguy]

was he being "boorish" or was he being a "goon" ?

He was being a goony boor...just like the audience members who tried to shout down McGovern during the question and answer session.

Clearly there were enough goons and boors to go around.

[Heights2Bastrop]

In think Rumsfeld is doing a great job with military operations in Iraq. I like the way he has transformed our forces to do the most using the fewest. No longer is it

[TJones]

Frankly, I think he was being patriotic.

, of course, HE, is being patriotic. Good answer Mr.Spin.

[Jeebus]

Funny you should bring that up. The DeLay supporters shouted down Lampson as opposed to debating him. In other words, they denied Lampson HIS right to speak...and bragged about it.

Technically Red, all the Lamson protesters did was hamper the crowd's ability to hear Lampson. They did nothing to censor the man's words.

[RedScare]

Technically Red, all the Lamson protesters did was hamper the crowd's ability to hear Lampson. They did nothing to censor the man's words.

Now, there's a man who put a little thought into this! Technically, you are correct. It is no different than when the counter-protesters arrive to drown out the Klan.

[TJones]

Now, there's a man who put a little thought into this! Technically, you are correct. It is no different than when the counter-protesters arrive to drown out the Klan.

I am all for "drowning"-out the Klan, both figuratively and literally ! >

[713 To 214]

The right to free speech doesn't guarantee you'll be heard!

[nmm]

Everyone agrees that Rumsfeld/the Administration lied about Iraq. No WMDS, no Al Qaeda (until after invasion), no "instability" (until after invasion) and no Osama. Although Saddam did kill a lot of his own people; i doubt that is the real reason we went to war. Thats more or less a "make myself feel good about the war" excuse one repeats to himself over and over to rest his troubling conscience.

Who knows the "real" reason Iraq was invaded?

Any takers? Anyone..... ...

[Jeebus]

Oil. How many times do we have to go over this?

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Oil. How many times do we have to go over this?

DUH :)

[nmainguy]

In think Rumsfeld is doing a great job with military operations in Iraq.

In do too!!

[Guest danax]

I was posting about ex CIA officer McGovern confronting Rumsfeld. I don't denounce anyone from exercising their freedom of speech-lies or not-but I think you know that already.

McGovern knows that the Bush goons are all about hidden agendas/lies to the public and he was bold enough to call him on it and not let up. Rumsfeld and group know that, even if he has an embarrasing moment and is caught at something, the whole thing will be forgotten soon enough and it's no big deal.

If McGovern gets too uppity, I've got him getting bumped off one way or another, like so many of the Clinton associates were.

Here's McGovern in a very nice interview. A good listen if you've got 30 minutes or so

[Houstonian in Iraq]

In think Rumsfeld is doing a great job with military operations in Iraq. I like the way he has transformed our forces to do the most using the fewest. No longer is it

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Does anyone remember back in Nov or Dec of '04. Camp Buering, Kuwait when Rumsfield addressed the troops and he said something to the effect of "We go to war with the Army we have not the Army we want" in regards to armor. Well, I was sitting in that crowd and you can just cut the tension with a knife when he said that. That's when we realized this SOB pretty much said screw you guys you are on your own. That night like most nights before we convoyed into Iraq we went back to the junk yard to look for more materials that we could use for armor or at least materials we could use that would resemble armor. Yes resemble armor, many of the vehicles used plywood, yes plywood that was painted brown to resemble armor (if I could find the pics on this PC I'll post them, somewhere on the hard drive)

My point is we're the US Arm forces we shouldn't have to beg borrow, steal or go dumpster diving. Especially with all the money being pumped into this war. Some of these Generals that are talking out were the generals that resigned right before the war. They resigned because they were not being listened to. It's there job to know, they have loads of experience and expertise on the matter. They knew of all the shortcomings and predicted what would happen and would rather resign (early retirement) than lead their troops into an unnecessary war without the proper equipment.

The reaction amongst the service leading up to the war in Kuwait was of disbelief. Even amongst the most diehard conservative Republicans patriots. All we did was watch the news, then look over the border and think "no way" are these guys a threat. We tried not to down the whole thing; negativity would just bring down morale. Everyone just tried to put the best light on it and proceed with what we had to do......get ready.

I digress

I knew it. It goes back to that leader we had in the 1990's that said"its the economy stupid". Huge cuts in military spending ACROSS the BOARD. More attention went into weapons systems that were designed to please the TV cameras and not specifically for boots on the ground. The same weapons Rummy and his crowd loves to show off at every chance they get.I remember a little of the Army arguements for funding but only a bit as the Army was not a part of the TRIAD, and our focus was different. Focus was shifted away from "military spending" in some areas that it should not have been, and infortunately it continued up to Iraq it appears. Damn ATROCIOUS!!!!!!!

[nmainguy]

I knew it. It goes back to that leader we had in the 1990's that said"its the economy stupid".

I was waiting for someone to blame Clinton. If you could just get the Clinton Monkey off your back and realise Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld and the Republican Party are the ones running the show, you might be a happier person.

Clinton has been out of office for almost a full six years. When are the people running the show going to start taking responsibility for the ATROCIOUS loss of life in Iraq.

BTW, U.S. casualties in the Kosovo war: Army Chief Warrant Officers David Gibbs and Kevin Reichert as they conducted a night training mission over Albania when their Apache crashed. That's it. Not 3000-2-and it wasn't even a combat mission.