Hanover Montrose: Multifamily At 3400 Montrose Blvd.

[Subdude]

The building will be demolished for a new development by Hanover. Can we get this moved to going up?

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/blog/breaking-ground/2013/11/iconic-montrose-tower-will-bow-to.html

 

Done, and merged with dupe topic.

[H-Town Man]

Thought this building really added some character to Montrose Blvd. Shame. Lots of smaller junk along that road they could have scraped off for their 30 story tower, but that seems to happen a lot.

[arche_757]

^Such as the huge expanse of parking+building for Walgreens across the street!  A shame indeed.

[cloud713]

would you rather leave this building to crumble, vacant and unused.. just for the sake of "character" or would you rather take a chance at a trendy new 30 story residential high rise adding some flair to the area? i agree there are other areas it could of been built, but that still doesnt answer what you plan to do with this building. its already been bought and sold off how many times since 2010? that means more than one person found this building to be economically unusable.. what makes you think you can come up with a better solution than someone whose trained in this field?

[HoustonMidtown]

Thought this building really added some character to Montrose Blvd. Shame. Lots of smaller junk along that road they could have scraped off for their 30 story tower, but that seems to happen a lot.

Maybe in it's day it added some character - back when SkyBar was open, M2M was there, etc....now it's just an eyesore....the stone facade has fallen onto the sidewalk below....it's empty interior looks terrible when you drive by.....I look forward to a new building taking it's place....

[bobruss]

Speaking of this area what happened to the Wetheimer + Montrose strip center where Half price Books and Specs holds down the whole center. What ever happened to the purchase. Wasn't someone talking about redeveloping that major piece of property into a West Ave. type mixed use project? Maybe with the news of this Hanover project it will spur on the other development.

Does anyone know any more about that. Thanks!

 

Hanover has really jumped in feet first. The Galleria area, two projects in the village and now this, besides a few more I know I'm leaving out..

[arche_757]

Back in the day?  You mean just a few years ago?!

 

And what is to say that working with a good architect/contractor one can't renovate this building for a profit?  I think Cloud713 needs to remove his/her Houston-goggles and take a look and see that buildings like this get successfully renovated ALL over the country.

[Subdude]

It is unfortunate, since it does have character and a nice period design.  Given the low floor height, asbestos, limited parking etc maybe owners thought the numbers wouldn't work for redevelopment.  Maybe it just needed more time for the right developer to come along.  The Plaza Hotel down the street had similar issues, but eventually an owner came along who was able to make it work.  

 

All that said, even back in the Skybar days this building had the funk thing going.  I remember walking in and thinking that it even smelled old.  

[HoustonMidtown]

Back in the day?  You mean just a few years ago?!

 

And what is to say that working with a good architect/contractor one can't renovate this building for a profit?  I think Cloud713 needs to remove his/her Houston-goggles and take a look and see that buildings like this get successfully renovated ALL over the country.

Maybe contractors have taken a look at it and determined it would cost too much to renovate...

[cloud713]

Back in the day? You mean just a few years ago?!

And what is to say that working with a good architect/contractor one can't renovate this building for a profit? I think Cloud713 needs to remove his/her Houston-goggles and take a look and see that buildings like this get successfully renovated ALL over the country.

Houston goggles? I'm all for preservation but like midtown said, who's to say that contractors haven't determined it's not economically feasible? As I pointed out it's been through 2-3 owners since 2010. All of them obviously thought it wasn't worth restoring.. Sure many buildings are saved for the sake of history, but unless I'm not seeing what your seeing, this building lacks any real historical significance.

[Subdude]

Houston goggles? I'm all for preservation but like midtown said, who's to say that contractors haven't determined it's not economically feasible? As I pointed out it's been through 2-3 owners since 2010. All of them obviously thought it wasn't worth restoring.. Sure many buildings are saved for the sake of history, but unless I'm not seeing what your seeing, this building lacks any real historical significance.

 

No, but it's got style and it's a nice example of mid-century design.  Look, I'm not an advocate of preserve-everything-at-all-costs.  The Texas Tower/Sterling Building I'm happy to see go.  I'm not particularly worked up over Foley's/Macy's.  But this one has maintained its architectural integrity, it relates well to the neighborhood, and on the surface it seems it could be adaptable to other uses.  Like I said, the Plaza Hotel went through different owners who couldn't figure out how to make it work, until one did.  Same with the Rice Hotel.  And the city is better off for it.

[arche_757]

I'm saying:  It is possible to save this building, while Hannover could have pursued buying the large surface parking lot and big-box Walgreens across the street (or bought some of the empty lots further north) and preserved this tower.  Yet here we are getting a perfectly useful building that fits the quirky neighborhood and scale of the area just fine to be torn down and replaced by a building 3 times its size.  Seems like a waste.

 

Contractors work out budgets and developers/clients see if that works for them.  Architects make changes when budgets come in a little too high.  Suffice to say that there are a lot of stupid developers out there.  Money -as I'm sure you are aware- doesn't make one smart.

 

Just because a building has had 3 owners since 2010 doesn't mean that all of those owners were responsible, or that they had the financial backing to pull off a major renovation.  And just because those three owners couldn't didn't mean that the next guy to come along would also be unable to do so.

[cloud713]

I'm saying:  It is possible to save this building, while Hannover could have pursued buying the large surface parking lot and big-box Walgreens across the street (or bought some of the empty lots further north) and preserved this tower.  Yet here we are getting a perfectly useful building that fits the quirky neighborhood and scale of the area just fine to be torn down and replaced by a building 3 times its size.  Seems like a waste.

 

Contractors work out budgets and developers/clients see if that works for them.  Architects make changes when budgets come in a little too high.  Suffice to say that there are a lot of stupid developers out there.  Money -as I'm sure you are aware- doesn't make one smart.

 

Just because a building has had 3 owners since 2010 doesn't mean that all of those owners were responsible, or that they had the financial backing to pull off a major renovation.  And just because those three owners couldn't didn't mean that the next guy to come along would also be unable to do so.

i agree, im just trying to be realistic about the situation.

[arche_757]

As am I.  Saving an older building that is still very much able to be re-used is indeed something we need to do more of here in Houston.  I've long said that this next century in American construction is much more about reasonable re-use, and less so about innovating 100 floor skyscrapers.  Perhaps you are aware...but the building industry is devoting huge amounts of capital (both money and brain) in figuring out ways to preserve, and rehabilitate buildings that are pre-existing (whether or not they are historic).  It is about 85% of my work; but I also work in Galveston, and the mantra down here is SO FAR REMOVED from the "Tear it down!  Tear it down!" chants I hear echoing from up north.

 

Sad really.

 

Look.  We'll agree to disagree here.  You don't think its worth saving.  I do.

 

We both know that Hannover won't build a remarkable tower here, and that it will be nothing more usable to the rest of us than just a visual piece on the skyline.

[TowerSpotter]

Speaking of this area what happened to the Wetheimer + Montrose strip center where Half price Books and Specs holds down the whole center. What ever happened to the purchase. Wasn't someone talking about redeveloping that major piece of property into a West Ave. type mixed use project? Maybe with the news of this Hanover project it will spur on the other development.

Does anyone know any more about that. Thanks!

 

Hanover has really jumped in feet first. The Galleria area, two projects in the village and now this, besides a few more I know I'm leaving out..

 

That is going to be turned into a mixed use projects. The developer is PM Realty Group. Just announced today.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/blog/breaking-ground/2013/11/happy-retail-tenants-could-slow.html

[cloud713]

As am I. Saving an older building that is still very much able to be re-used is indeed something we need to do more of here in Houston. I've long said that this next century in American construction is much more about reasonable re-use, and less so about innovating 100 floor skyscrapers. Perhaps you are aware...but the building industry is devoting huge amounts of capital (both money and brain) in figuring out ways to preserve, and rehabilitate buildings that are pre-existing (whether or not they are historic). It is about 85% of my work; but I also work in Galveston, and the mantra down here is SO FAR REMOVED from the "Tear it down! Tear it down!" chants I hear echoing from up north.

Sad really.

Look. We'll agree to disagree here. You don't think its worth saving. I do.

We both know that Hannover won't build a remarkable tower here, and that it will be nothing more usable to the rest of us than just a visual piece on the skyline.

Thank god the people of Galveston work so hard to preserve those buildings.. Galveston is a gem of a different era. I agree Houston tears down way too many old and historic structures. I was ecstatic to hear about them preserving the burned down Bethel Church and turn it into a park. That is the kind if innovative thinking this city needs..

I'll be the first to admit the main reason I'm looking forward to this is because of its presence in the skyline. I'm not from the area so it doesn't really effect me, though I guess that's also why I shouldn't have a say in this. You don't think there will be ground floor retail for the locals? And while I want to believe Hanover will build something great here I'll admit I'm not crazy about their tower at blvd place. Hopefully they take into account the artsy eclectic vibe in the area.

[htownproud]

arche -- are you familiar with this building?  what about it makes you think it can be saved other than the fact that it is hasn't fallen over yet?  the place is falling apart onto those of us in the neighborhood that walk by it.  if you had deteriorating buildings falling on the fine citizens of Galveston, I suspect you would want the public nuisance torn down.  At least something is going in its place here.  

 

then there is the inside of this building, which from what I saw before it closed was equally neglected and further beyond repair.  

 

is there a single building in Houston that you think should be torn down or should every building currently standing be preserved?

[H-Town Man]

For my part, it's not so much that I have special knowledge of this building and how to preserve it. It's just that every mid-century building in Houston is the same scenario: Just beyond repair. No way to renovate. Pieces of it are falling! (The last being perhaps the ultimate Houston anti-preservation bs cliche, said about every old building, yet no one ever actually sees any pieces fall.)

Mid-century buildings are preserved and renovated in other cities around the world, notably in places like Vienna or Berlin, but I guess the builders in 1950's Houston just weren't as good, because every one of those buildings here has "structural issues beyond repair!" Funny thing is 30 years ago the developers were saying the exact same thing about Houston's early 20th century buildings, movie palaces, etc. Now what's left of those are finally considered historic and suddenly the structural issues are gone! All over downtown they're being renovated. But it hasn't dawned on these people that the mid-century buildings are historic, just of a different style, so they're all "beyond repair"...

[Texasota]

For my part, it's not so much that I have special knowledge of this building and how to preserve it. It's just that every mid-century building in Houston is the same scenario: Just beyond repair. No way to renovate. Pieces of it are falling! (The last being perhaps the ultimate Houston anti-preservation bs cliche, said about every old building, yet no one ever actually sees any pieces fall.)

Mid-century buildings are preserved and renovated in other cities around the world, notably in places like Vienna or Berlin, but I guess the builders in 1950's Houston just weren't as good, because every one of those buildings here has "structural issues beyond repair!" Funny thing is 30 years ago the developers were saying the exact same thing about Houston's early 20th century buildings, movie palaces, etc. Now what's left of those are finally considered historic and suddenly the structural issues are gone! All over downtown they're being renovated. But it hasn't dawned on these people that the mid-century buildings are historic, just of a different style, so they're all "beyond repair"...

 

While I would also prefer to see this building reused, I feel the need to point out that:

 

pieces of it literally fell off and hit the ground.

[H-Town Man]

While I would also prefer to see this building reused, I feel the need to point out that:

 

pieces of it literally fell off and hit the ground.

 

When did it happen? What kind of pieces?

[htownproud]

When did it happen? What kind of pieces?

http://swamplot.com/stone-panel-leaps-to-montrose-blvd-sidewalk-from-former-skybar-balcony/2011-11-14/

 

The stone facade on the side of the building is crumbling.

[cloud713]

http://swamplot.com/stone-panel-leaps-to-montrose-blvd-sidewalk-from-former-skybar-balcony/2011-11-14/

 

The stone facade on the side of the building is crumbling.

Thank you! we point out the obvious and get some thread dedicated to us in the General Houston section about how crazy we are saying this building needs to come down.. psh, how ridiculous.

[arche_757]

arche -- are you familiar with this building?  what about it makes you think it can be saved other than the fact that it is hasn't fallen over yet?  the place is falling apart onto those of us in the neighborhood that walk by it.  if you had deteriorating buildings falling on the fine citizens of Galveston, I suspect you would want the public nuisance torn down.  At least something is going in its place here.  

 

then there is the inside of this building, which from what I saw before it closed was equally neglected and further beyond repair.  

 

is there a single building in Houston that you think should be torn down or should every building currently standing be preserved?

I'm not familiar with this building in particular - but the firm I once worked for worked on one of the proposals and they thought it was worth saving.  And - ugh - buildings in Galveston actually do fall apart.  There is one on the Strand that is in really poor condition (I'll find it later and let you know), and there is scaffolding up to prevent pieces of the stone lintel above the doors to the shops (still in use) from falling onto the ground and killing someone.  And there was a recently constructed building (done in the mid 2000s) that had a piece of a NEW balcony fall onto a woman and nearly kill her.  She survived but is now a parapalegic.

 

http://swamplot.com/stone-panel-leaps-to-montrose-blvd-sidewalk-from-former-skybar-balcony/2011-11-14/

 

The stone facade on the side of the building is crumbling.

That was in 2011.  What is to say that the building owners haven't fixed those issues?

 

Thank you! we point out the obvious and get some thread dedicated to us in the General Houston section about how crazy we are saying this building needs to come down.. psh, how ridiculous.

It isn't this building - it is the sum total of ALL historic buildings in Houston.  This is just the latest in buildings that are worthwhile (or still could be) that is getting torn down and "replaced" - just like the old Sears Roebuck Warehouse on Montrose @ Allen Parkway is supposed to be some giant Islamic Learning Center and Foundation... it would have made an excellent conversion to a Whole Foods and mixed shops (because its not like the Aga Kahn couldn't have built his center on empty land just a few blocks over).

 

And of course there are some that should be demolished post haste: Central Square and Day's Inn immediately come to mind!

[HoustonIsHome]

So pieces fall, big whoop. People are saying here that these buildings have to come down. No that don't have to. Buildings have been crumbling around the world for centuries.

I am not saying all buildings need to stand, but done masonry falling off doesn't mean the building isn't structurally sound.

I think it's just an excuse developers use.

[H-Town Man]

Thank you! we point out the obvious and get some thread dedicated to us in the General Houston section about how crazy we are saying this building needs to come down.. psh, how ridiculous.

 

That thread wasn't dedicated to you personally, unless you want to claim having spoken all those excuses.

[arche_757]

^^ Also, a building needn't be torn down because a piece of masonry falls off the side.  If a building has structural issues and parts of the facade fall off, then the owner needs to be held responsible and have the problem repaired.  Now if a whole floor falls onto the sidewalk below, then by all means, the building is a hazard!

 

My whole point - which seems to have been missed by some - is that this building is still a worthwhile structure (of course it has problems, its 50+ years old, and most of you who are 50 have problems), and as such it can be renovated into a once again proud/working building.  Hanover could have gone down to the corner of Richmond and Montrose and built a 30 floor tower there.  Or it could have purchased the Walgreens across the street and built there, or it could have bought any number of lots and built there.  Yet they didn't.  They are instead demolishing a building that needs work, but is capable of being reused as something again.  At least we will likely get something to replace it...I hope...I mean we've never had buildings torn down here in town before and NOT had anything replace it.  Ever.

[Ross]

On Swamplot, there have been several Thad's detailing the issues with this building, from massive amounts of asbestos to chilled water systems that are "Byzantine" to the floors being too close together to meet modern requirements. Fom all accounts, renovating the building is utterly uneconomic. I recall the uproar when the Gulf Publishing building was demolished. Gulf Publishing made the comment that renovations would cost upwards of ten million dollars,and he building would be worth three million. No sane person is going to put millions more into a structure than the finished building is worth.

[cloud713]

I'm not familiar with this building in particular - but the firm I once worked for worked on one of the proposals and they thought it was worth saving.  And - ugh - buildings in Galveston actually do fall apart.  There is one on the Strand that is in really poor condition (I'll find it later and let you know), and there is scaffolding up to prevent pieces of the stone lintel above the doors to the shops (still in use) from falling onto the ground and killing someone.  And there was a recently constructed building (done in the mid 2000s) that had a piece of a NEW balcony fall onto a woman and nearly kill her.  She survived but is now a parapalegic.

 

That was in 2011.  What is to say that the building owners haven't fixed those issues?

 

It isn't this building - it is the sum total of ALL historic buildings in Houston.  This is just the latest in buildings that are worthwhile (or still could be) that is getting torn down and "replaced" - just like the old Sears Roebuck Warehouse on Montrose @ Allen Parkway is supposed to be some giant Islamic Learning Center and Foundation... it would have made an excellent conversion to a Whole Foods and mixed shops (because its not like the Aga Kahn couldn't have built his center on empty land just a few blocks over).

 

And of course there are some that should be demolished post haste: Central Square and Day's Inn immediately come to mind!

completely agree with you that the Islamic Center should have been a mixed use development. also that Days Inn needs to come down (build that park!).. i actually kind of like what they are planning to do to Central Square (at least its a huge improvement). the renderings look nice.

and i do agree that just because a building is crumbling doesnt mean it needs to come down. it just seemed like that thread was taking a shot at us/claiming we were lying about it falling apart. but no H-Town, i dont claim to of ever said those other statements.

[arche_757]

completely agree with you that the Islamic Center should have been a mixed use development. also that Days Inn needs to come down (build that park!).. i actually kind of like what they are planning to do to Central Square (at least its a huge improvement). the renderings look nice.

and i do agree that just because a building is crumbling doesnt mean it needs to come down. it just seemed like that thread was taking a shot at us/claiming we were lying about it falling apart. but no H-Town, i dont claim to of ever said those other statements.

Imagine if the Aga Kahn Center was where Whole Foods is now, and Whole Foods along with other retail and some residential was built into where the Old Sears Warehouse was?  Perfect resolution.  Oh well.

 

Central Square has been proposed for this 'n that for so long until work is being done I'm still of the opinion that it needs to go.  But what has been proposed is nice.

 

Ross: That's the thing with old buildings - they need work!  Every old building is "Byzantine" with nasty pipes and poorly configured a/c ducting among any other thing that might be problematic.

 

3400 Montrose does have floor-to-floor height issues.  But that could have been remedied by cutting through floors and giving some rooms "double" heights and selling the units as residential to folks who want quirky/unique among condominiums in Houston spaces.

 

Now, maybe you are right Ross, perhaps the return on investment just isn't high enough for this building?  But I suspect some playing around would have resulted in a better fit and budget for all.

 

[H-Town Man]

completely agree with you that the Islamic Center should have been a mixed use development. also that Days Inn needs to come down (build that park!).. i actually kind of like what they are planning to do to Central Square (at least its a huge improvement). the renderings look nice.

and i do agree that just because a building is crumbling doesnt mean it needs to come down. it just seemed like that thread was taking a shot at us/claiming we were lying about it falling apart. but no H-Town, i dont claim to of ever said those other statements.

 

I concede that you were not lying about a piece falling off of it. Although it does make me wonder if the owner caused that piece to fall off when no one was on the sidewalk so they could deflect criticism for tearing it down. Owners have done worse things in this town.