More Than 500,000 Rally in L.A. for Immigrants' Rights

[webdude]

At first I thought they don't deserve to be treated like criminals and even deserve the right to become legal citizens.

Then I turn on the TV and got all confused when I saw them waving mexican flags. Are they asking for the right to stay or the right to invade?

Before trying to think of a solution, maybe we should find out what they really want. To assimilate or invade?

[Jeebus]

Like the Irish Flag on St. Patty's day

That's weak - especially coming from you. The only Irish flags you see are in pubs & in parades on St. Patrick's Day. Even then, the Irish aren't in the street demanding that Irish citizens be allowed the right to come to America illegally by the thousand. They're waving the flag because they're proud to drink green beer and talk like grizzled gypsies. The Irish have made some of the best immigrants because when they came here, even in the face of predjudice, they fought to assimilate. You know damn well those waving the Mexican flag in those protests were doing it to taunt the government, and not to show how proud they are to bring their culture here to the U.S. to pour in the ol' melting pot.

Since Mexico is the largest source of the illegal immigrants.....launch an all out US invasion of Mexico, divide it into several states, make them full states in the union, and nip the problem in the bud overnite.

This sounds like a better option than the fence. There would be so much opportunity for economic development, as well gain the wasted assets of Mexico. The only problem is Ford would have to actually start paying minium wage!

Stop all benefits to "illegal" aliens immediately. I am not saying that if little Pedro gets hit by a bus that HE be denied medical care if he is bleeding out his brain. However, he and his family are not allowed to suckle off the Gov. teet for food stamps or go to schools if he has to be placed in the spanish speaking only program. That program should be stopped this instant. If you are not willing to learn your host countries founded native language as set originally by our school system then you are not allowed to participate in our education system.

Send all "illegal aliens" currently in our prison system, back across the border, not just across to Nueva Laredo, I am talking about the jungles of Brazil or Columbia, if they try to cross our border again and are caught in our country, they will be shot on sight. Wouldn't take but a few examples to get the point across. I know, I know, not very Liberal thinking, but you have to start somewhere, if enough people complain about shooting convicted rapist or child molesters on the spot, then the law will be re-considered. You would be surprised how many millions, possibly billions would be saved every year, and how much space in our prisons would be freed up if we instituted this program.

I used to think and even talk like this, but not I don't think violence is the answer. I don't think shooting Mexicans is going to solve the problem. NMAIN: You say you want an intelligent solution. I'm going to offer one, and if you disagree at least explain why. My solution is the wall and grace period for the ones already here. This way, every illegal that's here now can stay, and no one living here will have to get deported. Don't make it illegal to help illegal aliens with human rights needs like food & clothing. I don't know what else you could do beyond that. Why not build the wall? What is your alternative to stopping the flow of illegal aliens from Mexico?

[pineda]

QUOTE(Houston1stWordOnTheMoon @ Wednesday, March 29th, 2006 @ 12:59am)

Since Mexico is the largest source of the illegal immigrants.....launch an all out US invasion of Mexico, divide it into several states, make them full states in the union, and nip the problem in the bud overnite.

This sounds like a better option than the fence. There would be so much opportunity for economic development, as well gain the wasted assets of Mexico. The only problem is Ford would have to actually start paying minium wage!

I second this idea! Forget annexing The Woodlands, ANNEX MEHICO!

[torvald]

I secretly hope to see the road building and home building companies grind to a halt for lack of workers. I want to hear the griping in restaurants that do not have enough cooks and dish washers. And I most want to watch the upper-middle class suburbanites complain that they now have to mow their own lawns, because there are no landscapers willing to do it for $20.

hell, i'd mow a lawn for $20 if i had a lawnmower.

[MidtownCoog]

I wonder exactly who organized these kids at City Hall? Who drove the private yellow school buses? Gonzalez Bus Service?

I am not anti-Mexico. I am pro-USA.

I don't have a solution either, but waving Mexican flags is no answer.

We need the hard working Mexicans here.

Blame Congress. They legislate by wind direction lately. This issue and the ports deal are two prime examples of weak men afraid to lose power by making difficult decisions.

It's much easier to go with the flow before mid-term elections.

[Highway6]

Seeing them wave Mexican flags on all the news stations. Do they think this helps their cause?

If they wanted us to accept them and have sympathy for their situations, waving a foreign flag and showing that you do see yourself as a Mexican in America, and not American.. this is not the way to do it.

I was slightly sympathetic before the protests eventhough i bascially support much heavier immegration laws, enforcement, and penalties..because basically, you can understand people wanting a better life amd trying to become American.

But seeing half a million people in LA, several thousand here.. and the vast majority waving Mexican flags....

whatever happened to protecting the country agsint all enemies foreign and domestic.

It has gotten ridicuclous the amount of people in our country, that use our services, dont pay for them, and Still appear to have no desire to consider themselves American, become American, or assimilate into our society. They're basically parasites.

All those Mexican flags... not helping their cause.

[TJones]

I used to think and even talk like this, but not I don't think violence is the answer. I don't think shooting Mexicans is going to solve the problem. NMAIN: You say you want an intelligent solution. I'm going to offer one, and if you disagree at least explain why. My solution is the wall and grace period for the ones already here. This way, every illegal that's here now can stay, and no one living here will have to get deported. Don't make it illegal to help illegal aliens with human rights needs like food & clothing. I don't know what else you could do beyond that. Why not build the wall? What is your alternative to stopping the flow of illegal aliens from Mexico?

No Jeebus, not ANY person crossing the border illegally. Just the hardened criminals, who think they can come over here and that they can do as they please. At the very least, send Mexico the bill for all of their citizens we have in custody that OUR tax dollars are paying for currently.

[713 To 214]

I do not support amnesty because I believe in fundamental fairness. It is not fair to other LEGAL immigrants from all over the world (Germany, Ireland, South Africa, Nigeria, India, China, Argentina, Holland, Israel, etc. etc. etc.), who apply and wait to come here LEGALLY. It is a slap in the face to them. If congress passes the President's so-called "guest worker program" it will have 2 effects:

1. It will send the message around the world that the US (which is supposed to be a nation of laws) does not take its immigration laws seriously, and if you can immigrate here illegally without detection, then the US government will reward that illegal act with a chance to stay, live, and work, nonetheless.

2. It will create an increase in the very ILLEGAL immigration we are trying to discourage/stop (this is already happening) because more people will make a mad dash for the borders in hopes that they will be in the US to take advantage of the new amnesty law. Just the mention that this law is a possibility, I'm sure, is increasing the amount of ILLEGALS coming across the border three-fold.

What the President is suggesting in his "guest worker program" is amnesty. We already have a guest worker program (Work Visas). What the president is proposing is just "smoke and mirrors" in an effort to appease his buddy Vicente Fox, who I think wants to populate Texas with so many foreign Mexican Nationals that it basically becomes Mexico all over again. If you don't believe that statement, just look at Texas towns close to the border that refuse to support immigration laws, that refuse to ask persons for identification when entering local and state facilities. . .They are basically operating, in those respects, as extensions of the Mexican Government.

[uncertaintraveler]

A few numbers to consider, as we insist on shrinking our bloated economy.

There are 143 million workers in the US. There are 7.1 million unemployed, or 4.8%. There are an estimated 10 to 15 million illegal aliens in the US. Economists agree that 96% employment is "full employment", meaning that, at any given time, 4% of the work force is between jobs for various reasons, as opposed to unable to find a job.

This means that currently, about 1.1 to 1.5 million people who want to work cannot find a job. If suddenly 7.5 million working illegals are deported, and the 1.5 million Americans immediately filled their jobs, there would be a resulting 6 million worker shortage, or 4.2% of the workforce. Since there would be no way to fill those jobs, because of laws against hiring foreign workers, the US economy would have to shrink 4.2 percent to adjust to the shortage. Since companies do not want to shrink, they will increase wages to attract workers. But, there will still be a 4.2 percent shortage, resulting in inflation, since prices will rise to reflect the higher wages. The rise in prices will be most pronounced in labor intensive industries with low-wage jobs, such as construction, janitorial services and the food service industries.

The economy will only grow when there are enough workers to allow it to do so. Since native-born Americans are producing fewer children (1.8 children per woman), the population will continue to shrink, further limiting the expansion of the economy. Since there are fewer workers, taxes must rise to pay for services. Government wages for military and police will rise fastest, because these jobs are the most dangerous.

Anyone got a solution to this problem that does NOT violate the laws of macro-economics?

AS a general matter, I agree with your basic premise and to some extent your intended point. However, among other issues, your discussion fails to account for (i) the fact that some jobs are created merely because of the existence of another job (i.e, a maid is employed because her employer is too busy to clean because he is employed--but if the employer is no longer employed, then there is no need for the maid), so losing a net of 6 million jobs may not actually occur; (ii) that 1.5 million Americans may not be qualified for, or even want to work in, the jobs that the 7.5 million illegals would leave; (iii) the fact that economies can increase over time (on a gdp basis and on a real basis) even though the total number of workers shrinks during the same time period (see, for example, some European nations); (iv) wage growth is not always, or even often, tied to the number of availabile workers; and (v) that with fewer workers, the demand for government services will be reduced, thereby lowering tax distributions, and the need for tax revenue, not increasing them.

To me, what the underlying issue should be is what kind of economy does the United States wish to become? If we want to be, or remain, an industrial economy, then we need more workers, not less. But if we want to become a service/banking/technical/new world economy, then perhaps less workers would be better after all.

[nmainguy]

NMAIN: You say you want an intelligent solution. I'm going to offer one, and if you disagree at least explain why. My solution is the wall and grace period for the ones already here. This way, every illegal that's here now can stay, and no one living here will have to get deported. Don't make it illegal to help illegal aliens with human rights needs like food & clothing. I don't know what else you could do beyond that. Why not build the wall? What is your alternative to stopping the flow of illegal aliens from Mexico?

I pretty much agree with all the above except the wall idea. Are you proposing a wall from the mouth of the Rio Grande to the Pacific Ocean and another one along our border with Canada? Who knows how much that would cost. In any event, I don't see that happening. If people want to get over, under or around a wall they WILL find a way. They have throughout history. As to your other question: I don't have any specific answer as to how to stop the flow. I only know I don't want to live in a walled-off America.

[J.A.S.O.N.]

My problem is not with citizens protesting. My problem lies with the waving of a foreign flag to tell me and all watching how we should give rights to illegal aliens.

I'm going to go ahead and have to agree with this sentiment somewhat. I don't have a problem with legal or illegal immigrants coming here. I'm glad they made it over and can support their families. But to DEMAND rights from a country that you are not apart of, and then wave a foreign flag up and down our streets is pretty bold.

[HeightsGuy]

What you all need to do is set aside all the emotional arguments and realize money is going to dictate the outcome of this whole thing.

First, let's not forget the money undocumented workers put into social security that they will never get back, and the other taxes they pay that they should have gotten back if they had filed a return. I heard that the SS number is 6-7 billion a year, and the other taxes are 50+ billion a year to the government. Oh yeah, and what about Houston and Texas? No city or state income tax, all sales tax. Undocumented workers pay the exact same as you do. What happens to Houston and Texas if we kick them all out. Have you thought it through? Not all illegal aliens live 10 to a house on the east side. They happen to own homes and businesses all over the area. Kick them all out of Houston and watch what happens to your property values as a housing glut appears. Watch what happens to Houston's tax base when they're all gone and Houston has to add $.01 to the sales tax rate to keep up. That my friends is why Congress has not touched this problem since the 80's.

What's worse is the "guest worker" program being floated. The US has agreements with most countries whose citizens we give H1B's to that allow the guest worker to send their SS taxes back to their originating country's SS programs. Guaranteed Fox lobbied Bush for a guest worker program. I know you guys might think Dems are stupid, but with amnesty and green cards the SS money stays here.

Follow the trail of money, that will lead you to the answer on this one. The only real solution are status quo or amnesty along with stricter enforcement at the borders. That is the only way to keep the money in the US.

[Jeebus]

I do not support amnesty because I believe in fundamental fairness. It is not fair to other LEGAL immigrants from all over the world (Germany, Ireland, South Africa, Nigeria, India, China, Argentina, Holland, Israel, etc. etc. etc.), who apply and wait to come here LEGALLY. It is a slap in the face to them. If congress passes the President's so-called "guest worker program" it will have 2 effects:

1. It will send the message around the world that the US (which is supposed to be a nation of laws) does not take its immigration laws seriously, and if you can immigrate here illegally without detection, then the US government will reward that illegal act with a chance to stay, live, and work, nonetheless.

2. It will create an increase in the very ILLEGAL immigration we are trying to discourage/stop (this is already happening) because more people will make a mad dash for the borders in hopes that they will be in the US to take advantage of the new amnesty law. Just the mention that this law is a possibility, I'm sure, is increasing the amount of ILLEGALS coming across the border three-fold.

I complete agree with your sentiment and stated scenarios. I only support the amnesty program if a line is drawn and the wall is built. And yes Nmain, they will find a way over, under, or through the wall. But when I say they I'm speaking of maybe a few hundred, versus the current few hundred thousand.

The amnesty program I support would have a deadline. After that, no matter what you are - if you're illegal, you're out.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Yourself included. I still think we need the wall. We need the wall on both north & south borders, as well as our Naval fleets patroling our harbors, and not others. As for the 11 to 12 million illegal aliens already here? Give them a grace period to register as citizen. Once the grace period is up, whomever is left is simply SOL. How much more lieniant could you be?

As for the proposed bill, I don't agree with making it a felony to give food to anyone, much less to give out a helping hand. Just as Red pointed out about the war on drugs, lets not get distracted and go the wrong direction. There are more than enough illegal immigration laws on the books already. Lets just build the wall, enact the grace period, and then enforce the laws we have.

I'm pretty frustrated too that thousands of illegal aliens waving the flag of Mexico are protesting in the United States. What is that all about anyway? What exactly is their point? How can they justify their demands when they are made by non-U.S. citizens?

Oh, and I agree with Coog - if they're that damned proud of their Mexican heritage, then try applying a little of that energy and fixing up Mexico for a change. It doesn't have to be the armpit of North America forever.

Can we backtrack 4 a second. What's the PRIMARY focus of these proposed bills? To deter future illegal immigration in the states, or to crack down on current Americans living illegally? What EXACTLY is it that the lawmakers want to accomplish? I understand many people saying "illegal immigration is bad", but what is it that society looks to gain when they succeed? Is this a money arguement or moral arguement?

[713 To 214]

First, let's not forget the money undocumented workers put into social security that they will never get back, and the other taxes they pay that they should have gotten back if they had filed a return. I heard that the SS number is 6-7 billion a year, and the other taxes are 50+ billion a year to the government. Oh yeah, and what about Houston and Texas? No city or state income tax, all sales tax. Undocumented workers pay the exact same as you do. What happens to Houston and Texas if we kick them all out. Have you thought it through? Not all illegal aliens live 10 to a house on the east side. They happen to own homes and businesses all over the area. Kick them all out of Houston and watch what happens to your property values as a housing glut appears. Watch what happens to Houston's tax base when they're all gone and Houston has to add $.01 to the sales tax rate to keep up. That my friends is why Congress has not touched this problem since the 80's.

I'm so tired of the "we NEED illegal immigrants" argument. It's a fallacy. The end result of deportation of all illegal immigrants would be that corporate America would be forced to pay US workers at least minimum wage for labor. This in turn would make everyone else

[MidtownCoog]

Considering Vocational Education is dead in US High Schools, where else are we going to find brick masons, carpenters, landscapers, etc.

It's not like we are training young Americans to do these jobs.

[Highway6]

Considering Vocational Education is dead in US High Schools, where else are we going to find brick masons, carpenters, landscapers, etc.

It's not like we are training young Americans to do these jobs.

And they have these programs in Mexico ?

If Mexicans can learn how to lay bricks, why cant american highschool dropouts ?

[713 To 214]

I'm curious. Maybe someone here can help me out. Who are these US citizens that are not willing to do the jobs that illegal immigrants currently perform? The millions of unemployed Americans should be offended by this statement.

[MidtownCoog]

In Mexico you learn a trade, and they do have a good work ethic. I have had two houses built in less than 10 years, and these guys are good. The brick mason I worked with was in his 30s. Learned the trade from his dad when he was 10.

American High School dropouts are losers. Nothing more than a bunch of low-life meth-addicted good for nothings.

They can't even finish High School and you want them to build your house?

Not me.

[RedScare]

1. It will send the message around the world that the US (which is supposed to be a nation of laws) does not take its immigration laws seriously, and if you can immigrate here illegally without detection, then the US government will reward that illegal act with a chance to stay, live, and work, nonetheless.

2. It will create an increase in the very ILLEGAL immigration we are trying to discourage/stop (this is already happening) because more people will make a mad dash for the borders in hopes that they will be in the US to take advantage of the new amnesty law. Just the mention that this law is a possibility, I'm sure, is increasing the amount of ILLEGALS coming across the border three-fold.

You seem to be suggesting that the current message to the world is that we do take our immigration laws seriously. Can you provide evidence of that?

Immigration, legal or otherwise, will always occur if the immigrant believes his/her desparate situation will be improved by immigrating. It is that simple. The Jeebus Wall, the 713/214 Law, the hateful House Bill making charity a felony, none of that will stop it. It is human nature to try to survive. The sooner Americans recognize this most basic of human instincts, the sooner we can fix things.

It is widely assumed that the US gives money to 3rd World countries out of generosity. This is incorrect. We give money and technology to other countries to help them improve their standard of living so that they will not go to war, and further, won't come here and overload our own services. If, instead of building and staffing a $100 Billion wall, that immigrants will still find a way around, we provide technology, aid and other assistance to the problem countries, in order to help their desparate poor achieve a decent standard of living, such as digging water wells, helping install sewer systems, and teaching sustainable farming techniques, not only would many immigrants stay in their home countries, but many of the ones here would go home. Most of the illegals wish to eventually go home, once they save enough money to get out of abject poverty. Just as Neo-cons say we should fight the terrorists in their country, we should help the immigrants out of poverty in THEIR country, before they come to ours.

This approach has the added benefit of showing the world, especially our enemies, that our interest is not to dominate, but to help. Actions speak loudly. This approach would help return us to the days when we did not need a wall. People attack when threatened.

I realize that a certain segment of the population feels the need to talk and feel macho. That approach has a short feel good phase, followed by a long back-it-up phase. Those who want to talk tough need to join up, because you're going to have to back it up.

As for the illegals here now? They are not all the same. They should not be treated the same. Felons who are here illegally are already routinely deported(surprise!). This should continue. Children of illegals, who had no choice in coming or going, should be treated as American born children. Illegals who have not committed crimes should be allowed to convert their illegal status to legal residency, NOT citizenship, with some sanctions. The sanctions could include fines or other civil penalties. Citizenship should not be offered to anyone who does not enter the country legally. This means they must leave and reapply to enter. However, work permits should be increased drastically. There is no reason for the economy to suffer just to make a point.

Finally, all complainers who oppose illegals on some kind of moral or patriotic ground, please just call your favorite talk radio station. We've heard you plenty. Many of us do not agree, but ALL of us are tired of hearing Johnny Reb tell us this is HIS country. We're ready to hear solutions that INCLUDE a reasonable way to pay for it...and don't violate the Constitution (like shooting unidentified people on the spot).

Note to fans of technology: Please tell me which technology will fix everything. "Technology" is a pretty vague term.

[Highway6]

In Mexico you learn a trade, and they do have a good work ethic. I have had two houses built in less than 10 years, and these guys are good. The brick mason I worked with was in his 30s. Learned the trade from his dad when he was 10.

But they learn by experience.. not school.. that was the point.

I don't know how vocational programs in public school systems work or used to work.. are you saying 30 yrs ago, anyone that laid bricks, learned through school as opposed to just going out there and learning by doing ?

You're right. i dont want highschool dropouts workign on my house.

What about college dropouts, or students home for summer, or regular joes that like working outside.

I just think it wrong to assume we have certain jobs only mexicans can or are willing to do.

[RedScare]

You're right. i dont want highschool dropouts workign on my house.

What about college dropouts, or students home for summer, or regular joes that like working outside.

I just think it wrong to assume we have certain jobs only mexicans can or are willing to do.

Too late. They already are.

As for jobs Americans won't do, it is not that Americans won't do them, but not at the low wages the immigrants will accept. Again, until somone blames American business for dangling the carrot, you can only blame the poor immigrant so much.

[Jeebus]

The Jeebus Wall..

I love it. Red, you're normally very consise, but your "Jeebus Wall" post put me to sleep. You droned on and on and I frankly don't know what the point was. I can agree that you're tired of hearing for right-wingers talking about "my country", but what are you trying to explain about digging water wells and the such.

Red, you seem way to smart to believe what you typed. You know as well as I all the aid in the world will not change the mindset of a Mexican. They will always believe the US is a better place to live - no matter how nice we make Mexico for them. The problem I have is their refusal to acknowledge that by flying their flags when they get here, not learning English, and coming here illegally. Add to that the thousands of illegals that aren't Mexican, but use the same trails & routes to enter.

Red, you know that with a wall and our military patroling the borders the number getting accross will diminish. Overtime, it will dwindle to near nothing as those who take for granted our border's potential power, will finally learn that no more Mexicans are getting across illegally anymore.

I want you to explain to me how the wall would be inneffective. So far no one has been able to, or has been willing to explain their hollow warnings of how a wall would not work.

[713 To 214]

You seem to be suggesting that the current message to the world is that we do take our immigration laws seriously. Can you provide evidence of that?

That's speculation counselor. I would expect you of all people to know how dangerous that is. Just for the record (because I notice through your post you like to mention that you're an attorney, so I'll try to talk to you in a way you may identify with more easily) I don't allude to most things. I state exactly what I want to say.

Immigration, legal or otherwise, will always occur if the immigrant believes his/her desparate situation will be improved by immigrating. It is that simple. The Jeebus Wall, the 713/214 Law, the hateful House Bill making charity a felony, none of that will stop it. It is human nature to try to survive. The sooner Americans recognize this most basic of human instincts, the sooner we can fix things.

What does this have to do with following the laws, and consequences for getting caught violating the laws? You, as a stated criminal law attorney, should understand that more than most others. Or maybe they just "pass" cases all day down at Harris County Criminal Courts Building?

It is widely assumed that the US gives money to 3rd World countries out of generosity. This is incorrect. We give money and technology to other countries to help them improve their standard of living so that they will not go to war, and further, won't come here and overload our own services. If, instead of building and staffing a $100 Billion wall, that immigrants will still find a way around, we provide technology, aid and other assistance to the problem countries, in order to help their desparate poor achieve a decent standard of living, such as digging water wells, helping install sewer systems, and teaching sustainable farming techniques, not only would many immigrants stay in their home countries, but many of the ones here would go home. Most of the illegals wish to eventually go home, once they save enough money to get out of abject poverty. Just as Neo-cons say we should fight the terrorists in their country, we should help the immigrants out of poverty in THEIR country, before they come to ours.

Again, what does this have to do with following our current immigration laws and the enforceability of those laws? If you want to debate the humanity of the current US immigration laws vs. US foreign policy, I would say (oops sorry) I would submit to you that that is not the current issue we're faced with. However, I do appreciate your philisophical outlook on the subject.

As for the illegals here now? They are not all the same. They should not be treated the same. Felons who are here illegally are already routinely deported(surprise!). This should continue. Children of illegals, who had no choice in coming or going, should be treated as American born children. Illegals who have not committed crimes should be allowed to convert their illegal status to legal residency, NOT citizenship, with some sanctions. The sanctions could include fines or other civil penalties. Citizenship should not be offered to anyone who does not enter the country legally. This means they must leave and reapply to enter. However, work permits should be increased drastically. There is no reason for the economy to suffer just to make a point.

Now, your suggestions are not half bad. Actually, I would agree with most of what you proposed accept the part about children of illegals becoming citizens. That just further encourages the type of illegal immigration we don't want through "anchor babies." Now, as for your statement about the economy suffering. . .well, I take an alternative position. The economy is cyclical anyway. It will go through ups and downs, anyway. However, with the proper debate, and planning, any negative economic effect can be anticipated and marginalized.

[Jeebus]

Also, (as a footnote) Southern California & Houston are the only two areas I've been to in the nation where Mexicans make up enough of the services market to cause a negative impact if all deported. Everywhere else in America, minus a few select large metros, US citizens are still cutting the grass, harvesting the crops, and washing the dishes.

[Highway6]

As for jobs Americans won't do, it is not that Americans won't do them, but not at the low wages the immigrants will accept. Again, until somone blames American business for dangling the carrot, you can only blame the poor immigrant so much.

I agree..

Whatever immigration bill comes out of congress, it need to address that.... blame and penalties should reflect both. If there is real enforcement and penalties, making it harder for them to hire illegals, less would come.

The low wages are a result of an abundant supply of illegal workers, not the other way around.

Of the unemployed in America.. legal citizens.. anyone know the percentage make up of white vs black ?

Not to appear racist but i'm assuming most unemployed in the country are inner-city, and therefore minority, but if we have big areas of inner-city unemployed...couldn't we shift to giving these undersirable jobs to them.. and.. again, I don't know numbers of unemployed legal vs illegal supply..... but if there is less but still willing supply.. less than needed, wouldnt wages have to go up to attract them

Also, again.. punish the companies that hire for less... they pay illegals less becasue they are undocumented.. if their supply of workers switched over to legal workers with social security numbers, wages would have to go up...

[HeightsGuy]

I'm so tired of the "we NEED illegal immigrants" argument. It's a fallacy. The end result of deportation of all illegal immigrants would be that corporate America would be forced to pay US workers at least minimum wage for labor. This in turn would make everyone else

[713 To 214]

Also, again.. punish the companies that hire for less... they pay illegals less becasue they are undocumented.. if their supply of workers switched over to legal workers with social security numbers, wages would have to go up...

Exactly!!! I believe it should be a felony to hire illegal immigrants, NOT to give them aid or otherwise help them humanitarianly. I bet if the public saw a few Fortune 500 CEOs in handcuffs for hiring ILLEGALS then things would change real quick. How much you want to bet congress will never pass such a law, though?.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

I didn't say anything about need, I'm telling you the monetary consequences of deporting 12 million people. For arguments sake though, if those 12 million were no longer illegal, don't you think they might have a little more leverage to bring salaries up.

Long answer is : NO NO NO NO NO

[RedScare]

That's speculation counselor. I would expect you of all people to know how dangerous that is. Just for the record (because I notice through your post you like to mention that you're an attorney, so I'll try to talk to you in a way you may identify with more easily) I don't allude to most things. I state exactly what I want to say.

What does this have to do with following the laws, and consequences for getting caught violating the laws? You, as a stated criminal law attorney, should understand that more than most others. Or maybe they just "pass" cases all day down at Harris County Criminal Courts Building?

Again, what does this have to do with following our current immigration laws and the enforceability of those laws? If you want to debate the humanity of the current US immigration laws vs. US foreign policy, I would say (oops sorry) I would submit to you that that is not the current issue we're faced with. However, I do appreciate your philisophical outlook on the subject.

Now, your suggestions are not half bad. Actually, I would agree with most of what you proposed accept the part about children of illegals becoming citizens. That just further encourages the type of illegal immigration we don't want through "anchor babies." Now, as for your statement about the economy suffering. . .well, I take an alternative position. The economy is cyclical anyway. It will go through ups and downs, anyway. However, with the proper debate, and planning, any negative economic effect can be anticipated and marginalized.

713, it is quite clear from your responses that you are one of the 44% of Americans that cannot read an opinion and figure out the major points. Prior to today, I thought you were just a former Houstonian who was treated badly here. Now, I see that you are just ignorant. Others read my post and agreed or disagreed. You don't seem to get what I wrote. Knowing that, I vow to no longer insult you as I've done in the past. I won't respond to you for fear of showing your ignorance. I don't want to hurt your feelings. And, it is against the forum rules. Sorry to have exposed you.

PS - My cases were dismissed today, not passed. That's why I'm in such a good mood.