More Than 500,000 Rally in L.A. for Immigrants' Rights

[nmainguy]

Same with many of my ancestors, nmainguy, and the same with ancestors of many on here. However, the difference is they didn't swim a river or climb a wall to enter this country. They came in through Ellis Island, or some other legal port of entry.

Actually, my grandpa and his brother stowed away on a trawler from Ireland and jumped ship in Boston. His wife-my grandmother-a French Canadian Mohawk-slipped across from Canada.

On my mom's side, my great ???? grandfather came over from Switzerland as a mercinary-then stayed.

So yeah, many and probably most immigrants were legal-many were not. Thank god for me and my family, many of my ancestors were not legal-but they sure knew a good thing when they saw it and we are a better nation because of it.

[Parrothead]

What I don't understand is, isn't Mexico worth fighting for? Why do illegals come here in droves instead of fighting for what is right in their own country? I don't understand that at all.

The whole thing makes me sick, but that should come as no surprise to some of you. I'm not a xenophobe, I mean, it isn't the people--it's the other crap they bring. FWIW, danax, I agree with you 100% and don't think you are a racist or any other thing. You are being honest and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. As a country, we can't go forward if there is no honesty with this situation.

[N Judah]

What I don't understand is, isn't Mexico worth fighting for? Why do illegals come here in droves instead of fighting for what is right in their own country? I don't understand that at all.

Unless you're a Native American, I don't see what's so hard to understand about it. This country wouldn't exist if it weren't for people cutting and running because they didn't feel like dealing with the problems of their home country.

[RedScare]

What I don't understand is, isn't Mexico worth fighting for? Why do illegals come here in droves instead of fighting for what is right in their own country? I don't understand that at all.

Clearly, you've never been so desparately poor that your stomach bloats.

Good for you. But, what I don't understand is our elected officials passing a bill make it a felony to feed an illegal immigrant...and how anyone could support that, no matter your views on immigration.

[MidtownCoog]

They went nuts at city hall today.

Tons of Mexicans flags protesting, and these kids were bussed in, so somebody is organizing this.

I smell Hugo Chavez.

[DJ V Lawrence]

They went nuts at city hall today.

Tons of Mexicans flags protesting, and these kids were bussed in, so somebody is organizing this.

I smell Hugo Chavez.

WTF!!!

4 shizzle, word on the street is that all these high school kids were ditching class for the protests (similar to how many of my classmates did the same when Metallica came to town). Was it only students, or were there a lot of people taking off work for this as well for this? Just curious.

Does anyone here know Bush's stance on the bill itself? I've so far only heard Bush's reaction to the style of debate in Korea.

[RedScare]

They just marched by my building. Looks like they are heading west on Congress. Not sure where they are going. They passed Market Square.

[MidtownCoog]

I was only watching from the 29th floor, but from what I could tell it was just kids.

Most wearing white shirts, so they came from some local HISD schools I assume.

Waving the Mexican flag is not going to make me sympathetic to this cause. If anything, it's really starting to turn me off.

[jm1fd]

Since there would be no way to fill those jobs, because of laws against hiring foreign workers, the US economy would have to shrink 4.2 percent to adjust to the shortage.

<SNIP>

Anyone got a solution to this problem that does NOT violate the laws of macro-economics?

Sure. Decrease the need for people by increasing the use of technology. I think we could improve the efficiency of the workforce by 4.2% by employing more technology....and hey...we could even use offshore labor to help build that technology.

[pineda]

some of the protestors were carrying signs reading "Dream Act"...

[editor]

I might be more sympathetic to the proesters who claim they want to stay in the United States and become Americans if they were waving some American flags, instead of Mexican flags. It makes it look like they aren't interested in becoming an integrated part of the nation, but instead a subset of their own nation within our own.

[RedScare]

Sure. Decrease the need for people by increasing the use of technology. I think we could improve the efficiency of the workforce by 4.2% by employing more technology....and hey...we could even use offshore labor to help build that technology.

American companies are already using technology and offshore labor. Replacing the workforce with techology does not grow the economy.

Example: workforce = 100

New workforce = 95.8 x 5% technology = 100.59

The old workforce with the same 5% technology boost would produce at 105. Additional problem. Office and residential construction cannot be exported. Neither can road construction and janitorial and restaurant services. For these jobs to be filled, someone will have to leave the service industry to fill it. Currently, 25% of these industries are filled by Illegals.

Additionally, 25% of vegetable and crop harvesters are Illegals. Someone needs to fill these jobs, or else our farmers go under. Once the farmers go under, we must get our food from imports, just like our oil. Now THAT sounds like a safe food chain. Isn't that what we want...safety and security?

I might be more sympathetic to the proesters who claim they want to stay in the United States and become Americans if they were waving some American flags, instead of Mexican flags. It makes it look like they aren't interested in becoming an integrated part of the nation, but instead a subset of their own nation within our own.

You are assuming (incorrectly) that all of these migrants and immigrants want to become Americans. That is not necessarily the wish of all who come. Many merely want to work to support their family and then return to their home countries. To be sure, some want to become citizens, but not all.

[Guest danax]

I might be more sympathetic to the proesters who claim they want to stay in the United States and become Americans if they were waving some American flags, instead of Mexican flags. It makes it look like they aren't interested in becoming an integrated part of the nation, but instead a subset of their own nation within our own.

This issue has become more of a La Raza revolution/Latino pride/political cause/rallying point than really caring about immigrants, IMO. A small minority of course hope for the "reconquista", or reconquering of this territory, through population, and then eventually, political dominance. I'm sure Presidente Fox is muy feliz.

I think soon they'll get smart via some coaching from the leaders behind the scenes and exchange the Mexican flags for the American. Too late though, their hand has been exposed, and many sympathic Americans will be disgusted, as it's obvious that these protesters don't know how to win the hearts of true Americans, and don't appear to be even trying to.

This group is after power, which is OK and the Amercian way and all, but divided loyalty and illegals demanding rights while being in violation of the law is pretty outrageous. On the other hand this could just be viewed as 1960s-style civil disobedience. "The Establisment" said the same things about the hippies when they protested the war, smoked pot and burned the flag, but there weren't millions of them.

What would be the reaction if thousands of illegal Muslims started marching on Washington waving Iragi and Saudi flags, demanding amnesty? Or a thousand illegal Brits with the Union Jack? If they didn't have much political clout, they'd be either laughed at or deported or both.

[MidtownCoog]

La Raza revolution/Latino pride/political cause/rallying

Sad, but true.

When they get the political clout by sheer volume of number, will they ruin America like they ruined Mexico?

If they took a wee bit of this pride back to Mexico, maybe Mexico would be a better place.

But Mexico is not a better place.

Why?

[RedScare]

This argument strikes me as strangely familiar...where have I heard this before? Oh, yeah, the war on drugs. Americans' insatiable appetite for drugs. Americans invite the drugs in because they want them. They cannot get enough of them. When some Americans who are out of the loop decide the drugs are unwanted, they blame it all on the countries of origin. They don't do anything to curb the American users' appetite. They send troops and dollars to fight the growing countries. We spend countless dollars on the "war", while threatening to withold money for useful and peaceful purposes.

How is that like the immigration issue? Simple. American business. American business' insatiable appetite for Cheap labor. American businessmen invite them in with offers of jobs. In spite of laws against it, businesses hire them anyway. Even Wal-Mart hires them, not to mention every home builder, road builder and restaurant in town. And Americans buy those houses, drive on those roads, and eat in those restaurants. And who allows this to happen? The same politicians who are riling up the populace with misinformation.

Now, that they are here, at OUR invitation, now we say 'Go home'? Hardly. You can't get rid of them. Twelve million people don't leave their homes just because we changed our minds. And who changed their minds? Not the immigrants. Not the business owners. Certainly not the American born children of these immigrants, who know no other home. Not the Catholic Church. Not the American people who are not too proud to admit that sometimes we screw things up. And last of all, not many of the politicians who are accepting money and votes from the businesses who invited the immigrants here.

I know some people get annoyed at hearing Spanish spoken in Houston, just as the Native Americans got annoyed at hearing English. I know some of you don't like Mexican paint schemes and landscaping. Virtually ALL of us agree the immigration system is broken and needs realistic reform. But, those of you clamoring to send 12 million people back need to pour yourselves a big glass of reality. April 15 is coming up. Start paying your taxes. Because we're going to need TRILLIONS of dollars for cops, jails, prosecutors, judges, and most of all, ME, your friendly neighborhood defense lawyer. You see, we have to prove which ones go back, and it aint cheap. We also have to prosecute the business owners who hire the immigrants. Last year, there were 77,000 people prosecuted in Harris County. Try an extra 200,000 immigrants and see what that costs. By the way, we only have 12,000 jail beds.

Use your common sense people. Overheated rhetoric about the "American Way of Life" (what's that, a teepee?) does nothing to fix a broken system. It only encourages vote hungry politicians to do something that we'll ALL regret. There are reasonable, viable solutions that will satisfy most thoughtful people. Ignorant calls to expel 12 million law-abiding, hard working, low paid people is not one of them.

By the way, Marvin Zindler just gave one his best speeches yet. I applaud him.

[jm1fd]

American companies are already using technology and offshore labor. Replacing the workforce with techology does not grow the economy.

Sure it does. We can build and sell that new technology we developed to other countries.

Example: workforce = 100

New workforce = 95.8 x 5% technology = 100.59

The old workforce with the same 5% technology boost would produce at 105.

Let's assume those numbers have some basis in reality....they don't, but let's pretend. Factor in the facts that machines will work around the clock, turn out higher yields, and don't have to be paid. Your numbers don't account for a greater than 3x productivity increase.

Additional problem. Office and residential construction cannot be exported. Neither can road construction and janitorial and restaurant services. For these jobs to be filled, someone will have to leave the service industry to fill it. Currently, 25% of these industries are filled by Illegals.

Yes, but all of those industries can have technology applied to reduce the staff needed.

Additionally, 25% of vegetable and crop harvesters are Illegals. Someone needs to fill these jobs, or else our farmers go under. Once the farmers go under, we must get our food from imports, just like our oil. Now THAT sounds like a safe food chain. Isn't that what we want...safety and security?

Hmm....comparing oil to food. Bad comparison. We're not going to lose the ability to grow our own food. We can resume food production anytime we wish, and it is a renewable resource. Oil, on the other hand, is a finite resource (as far as we know) that can only be pumped out of the ground in certain geographic locations.

[713 To 214]

My two cents:

1. I think it is very important for people to distinguish LEGAL immigration from ILLEGAL immigration. I don't think most Americans have a problem with legal immigrants (those who poses a visa or other form of permission to be here). The government knows who those people are, and has had an opportunity to make a determination on whether the cost of them being here outweighs the benefits. A lot of these immigrants are here on our "guest worker program" already in existence. . .work visas (i.e. H1 B visa); They work. They pay taxes, and most importantly the government knows who and where they are.

Illegal immigrants are those who disregard what the pre-established laws are for entry into the U.S. They enter without permission, and as a result, they enter unbeknownst to the government. . .any rational person has to admit that this causes a serious security threat. In the illegal immigrant's case the government has not been afforded the opportunity to review these peoples' backgrounds nor perform any cost benefit analysis of their stay in the U.S. and while I refuse to stereotype/label an entire group of people as "bad," I'm not going to be foolish enough to think that all of them are "good" either. Some of these people coming over, the U.S. Mexican border primarily (Panamanians, Mexicans, Bolivians, Guatamlans, etc.), are criminals, and our government, charged with the responsibility of protecting us, deserves the right to examine their backgeounds. I would expect no less. So from a security standpoint, I understand why a crackdown on border security is needed, and I support those efforts wholeheartedly.

[713 To 214]

2. I take issue with, and am personally offended by those persons marching (I'm assuming they are illegal immigrants) suggesting they "support all that America is about," that they "came here for the opportunity," they "have a right to work," etc, etc. etc., while at the same time weilding MEXICAN FLAGS. . .Hello!!! Wouldn't a better show of support for this country consist of 1. respecting the law of entry? 2. Weilding a U.S. Flag, perhaps? That to me is a slap in the face because in essence I think these people are making the statement that noi matter why we are in the U.S., no matter what we do in the U.S., our ultimate allegiance lies with Mexico (or whatever country of origin). That flies in the face of the very statements that they are publiclly stating regarding their love for America and what it stands for. Go figure.

[nmainguy]

This is what I have observed in this thread:

danax expresses a sincere opinion-most of which I disagree with-but sincere never the less.

Jeebus alluds to turning "...off the faucet" which is another way of saying he supports a wall [which he has done in another thread]. Although sincere, I totally disagree with.

JGraspo opens by calling danax a racist...I don't think I need to say more but I did:

nmainguy disputes JGraspo's "logic" in post #9.

DJ says-amoung many other sensible statements- "I couldn't agree more that protecting Mexico/American border and not using the same style methods on the American/Canadian border is flat out hypocritical." DJ brings the discussion back to earth.

editor sheds light on the difficulties of "white imigrants"-JGraspo's term-in coming to the US.

WesternGulf reiterates the hypocracy of many who oppose Mexican immigrants-"You have to question something when Mexicans are treated differently than Cubans that enter this country."

Modernceo tells of his experience with his neighbors and his border agent aquaintance-post #21-worth reading and reflecting on.

H2B responded to my post #29 with "Same with many of my ancestors, nmainguy, and the same with ancestors of many on here. However, the difference is they didn't swim a river or climb a wall to enter this country. They came in through Ellis Island, or some other legal port of entry." I replyed with "...my grandpa and his brother stowed away on a trawler from Ireland and jumped ship in Boston." Two different stories with the same results: a far better life than our ancestors could ever have imagined.

MidtownCoog posts with a paranoid "I smell Hugo Chavez." and with "will they ruin America like they ruined Mexico?"

editor and danax bemoan the Mexican flags waved in protest.

RedScare points out useful facts and figures-especially the elephant in the room-what do we do about the 12 million illegals already here.

No one has offered a a solution to the "problem". No one has mentioned that we are still the most powerful and richest nation to ever exist but act as if the sky is falling when a perhaps manufactured crisis is presented. [reminds me of all the white male commentators on FOXNews bemoaning "The War on Christmas" as threatening to a nation that has had 43 consecutive male, Christian Presidents ]

Maybe we should all step back and look at our past while at the same time recognizing our current challanges. It seems as if we-the US-has never stopped evolving and maybe never will. That may be one of our greatest hidden strengths.

...and that, my friends, is my rant.

[N Judah]

Sad, but true.

When they get the political clout by sheer volume of number, will they ruin America like they ruined Mexico?

If they took a wee bit of this pride back to Mexico, maybe Mexico would be a better place.

But Mexico is not a better place.

Why?

Because your premise is flawed, that's why.

[713 To 214]

Because your premise is flawed, that's why.

How so? I'm very interested in your response.

[Jeebus]

No one has offered a a solution to the "problem".

Yourself included. I still think we need the wall. We need the wall on both north & south borders, as well as our Naval fleets patroling our harbors, and not others. As for the 11 to 12 million illegal aliens already here? Give them a grace period to register as citizen. Once the grace period is up, whomever is left is simply SOL. How much more lieniant could you be?

As for the proposed bill, I don't agree with making it a felony to give food to anyone, much less to give out a helping hand. Just as Red pointed out about the war on drugs, lets not get distracted and go the wrong direction. There are more than enough illegal immigration laws on the books already. Lets just build the wall, enact the grace period, and then enforce the laws we have.

I'm pretty frustrated too that thousands of illegal aliens waving the flag of Mexico are protesting in the United States. What is that all about anyway? What exactly is their point? How can they justify their demands when they are made by non-U.S. citizens?

Oh, and I agree with Coog - if they're that damned proud of their Mexican heritage, then try applying a little of that energy and fixing up Mexico for a change. It doesn't have to be the armpit of North America forever.

[nmainguy]

Yourself included. I still think we need the wall. We need the wall on both north & south borders, as well as our Naval fleets patroling our harbors, and not others. As for the 11 to 12 million illegal aliens already here? Give them a grace period to register as citizen. Once the grace period is up, whomever is left is simply SOL. How much more lieniant could you be?

As for the proposed bill, I don't agree with making it a felony to give food to anyone, much less to give out a helping hand. Just as Red pointed out about the war on drugs, lets not get distracted and go the wrong direction. There are more than enough illegal immigration laws on the books already. Lets just build the wall, enact the grace period, and then enforce the laws we have.

I'm pretty frustrated too that thousands of illegal aliens waving the flag of Mexico are protesting in the United States. What is that all about anyway? What exactly is their point? How can they justify their demands when they are made by non-U.S. citizens?

Oh, and I agree with Coog - if they're that damned proud of their Mexican heritage, then try applying a little of that energy and fixing up Mexico for a change. It doesn't have to be the armpit of North America forever.

You are exactly right. That's what I said in post #29: "I don't have the solutions-I'm not smart enough." I just know what I think won't work: walls. We've beaten this horse to death, you and me. I'm feeling like the horse.

We agree when it comes to criminalizing aid, however.

I'm not going to get into a big ol' fight over this. I'm only asking for smarter and cooler heads to come up with viable ideas.

I'm waiting...

[N Judah]

How so? I'm very interested in your response.

He makes it seem like the illegal Mexican immigrants moving here are the politicos and corrupt movers and shakers who ruined the place. Do you really think that's the case? If anything, the rich/corrupt Mexicans who move here are the ones who do so *legally*...

[TJones]

Can't do the ol' amenesty trick that our beloved Ronnie Reagan did in 1986. We were lucky it was only 3 million illegals then. Now we have an estimated 11 million illegals, ok, so 11 million, times 4 equals 44million within 5 years or so. "TJ, where do you get that number?" you ask. That, my friends, is the average family that the illegal immigrant worker in the U.S. right now, has back home in Mexico or El Salvador or San Salvador or Equador, name your 3rd world country. "How do you know that TJ ?" I have been around illegals in the workforce for the better part of 15 years or so, Restaurants and Homebuilding, even some in the Car business and I have talked in-depth with most of them. As soon as they become "legalized" they can bring their immediate families over, we are talking, wife or husband and the two ninos. The illegals I got to know are some of the finest and kindest people you could ever hope to meet, most of them would have liked to become citizens legally, but they all complain it takes too long, and they need to work to send money home to help get the rest of the family over so that they can work and send money home. Vicious Cycle !

Stop all benefits to "illegal" aliens immediately. I am not saying that if little Pedro gets hit by a bus that HE be denied medical care if he is bleeding out his brain. However, he and his family are not allowed to suckle off the Gov. teet for food stamps or go to schools if he has to be placed in the spanish speaking only program. That program should be stopped this instant. If you are not willing to learn your host countries founded native language as set originally by our school system then you are not allowed to participate in our education system.

Send all "illegal aliens" currently in our prison system, back across the border, not just across to Nueva Laredo, I am talking about the jungles of Brazil or Columbia, if they try to cross our border again and are caught in our country, they will be shot on sight. Wouldn't take but a few examples to get the point across. I know, I know, not very Liberal thinking, but you have to start somewhere, if enough people complain about shooting convicted rapist or child molesters on the spot, then the law will be re-considered. You would be surprised how many millions, possibly billions would be saved every year, and how much space in our prisons would be freed up if we instituted this program.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

I respect anyone that wants to better themselves, but i didnt sit for 6 years in the belly of a nuclear missle submarine protecting and defending this nation only to turn on the television and watch the flag of a foreign land be paraded proudly through the streets of America. I dont find it plausible that these kids participating in that mess are doing it for any reason other than to ditch school. Illegal immigration is a problem that should be dealt with........

Here are some solutions......

1. round up illegals and send them back to nation of origin and then send those nations a bill for the trouble...if unable to pay, deduct it from the foreign aide they receive from America.

2. since Mexico is the largest source of the illegal immigrants.....launch an all out US invasion of Mexico, divide it into several states, make them full states in the union, and nip the problem in the bud overnite.

The other problem with this is a perceived unwillingness to assimilate. When many immigrants of old came to the USA, they were actually, some of them, to speak thier native tongues outside of thier homes. There was a deep desire to learn the english language. America can be everything to everyone, but we need to all atleast start with singing the same language.

[Houstonian in Iraq]

I respect anyone that wants to better themselves, but i didnt sit for 6 years in the belly of a nuclear missle submarine protecting and defending this nation only to turn on the television and watch the flag of a foreign land be paraded proudly through the streets of America..

Like the Irish Flag on St. Patty's day

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Like the Irish Flag on St. Patty's day

Yes just like that, because we all know how the illegal Irish immigrants wait just for that day to parade the streets and DEMAND rights of legal citizens.

[Houstonian in Iraq]

Yes just like that, because we all know how the illegal Irish immigrants wait just for that day to parade the streets and DEMAND rights of legal citizens.

My point was that those people many legal and or citizens protesting have the right to do so And that right along with the other rights is the reason why I still serve.

Many Americans see it as a legal and illegal thing, as black and white.

For many Latinos they see the whole illegal, legal, hispanic thing as one Hispanic community and the resentment of either part of that community as a resentment of the whole Hispanic Community.

Many of the illegal aliens have been here for years and have American kids and grandkids, cousins, brothers, sisters so on so forth. Many had made that hard journey and worked the crap jobs for their family. They see stricter laws as potential Family breakers and to a community that holds Family in high regards I don't see them backing down.

Like Red pointed out, there are plenty of Americans that leech off the system. Most Latinos (legal, illegal, citizens) are way too proud to accept any type of Government handout. Their Healthcare plan is DON

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

My problem is not with citizens protesting. My problem lies with the waving of a foreign flag to tell me and all watching how we should give rights to illegal aliens.