More Than 500,000 Rally in L.A. for Immigrants' Rights

[Guest danax]

I'm not going to sugar-coat my opinion. We've got too many of them, they're uneducated and show very little interest in education, have high dropout rates and end up bringing down schools wherever they go, they turn neighborhoods into ugly barrios with a potential for gang activity, have high birth rates and, pay no income tax and take jobs away from legal Americans. Is this what we want for our city and country? Are we all too afraid to speak up for fear of being branded "racist"?

So now they've got a taste of power and want to stop the American government from stabilizing the flood at the border. Am I the only one that thinks this is fairly outrageous?

"There has never been this kind of mobilization in the immigrant community ever," said Joshua Hoyt, executive director of the Illinois Coalition for Immigrant and Refugee Rights. "They have kicked the sleeping giant. It's the beginning of a massive immigrant civil rights struggle."

L.A. Times article.

[WesternGulf]

I don't know. Personally I do not have a problem with immigration because it does not have that large of an effect on me in the first place. I know it sounds cliche but I would not paint all of them with the same brush.

All I know is, I have tremendous respect for some of them because they are anything but lazy. There are a lot of them that are willing to do work that the average American would not do. As much as people might appreciate their labor, we still blast them for not being up to par with the rest of society eventhough we are paying them chump salaries and carp them for finding whatever job opportunity that they can come across.

By the way you claim they "turn neighborhoods into ugly barrios with a potential for gang activity" but you cannot say that you have not seen them turn some neighborhoods around for the better. Look what they are doing for New Orleans but then some people will not accept them finding life in their cities.

[Jeebus]

By the way you claim they "turn neighborhoods into ugly barrios with a potential for gang activity" but you cannot say that you have not seen them turn some neighborhoods around for the better. Look what they are doing for New Orleans but then some people will not accept them finding life in their cities.

Illegal Hispanics seem to only be turning around neighborhoods they're paid to fix up - but not the ones they pay to live in.

My opinion about illegal immigration remains that you can't fix a leaky drain until you turn off the faucet.

[JGraspo]

I'm not going to sugar-coat my opinion. We've got too many of them, they're uneducated and show very little interest in education, have high dropout rates and end up bringing down schools wherever they go, they turn neighborhoods into ugly barrios with a potential for gang activity, have high birth rates and, pay no income tax and take jobs away from legal Americans. Is this what we want for our city and country? Are we all too afraid to speak up for fear of being branded "racist"?

So now they've got a taste of power and want to stop the American government from stabilizing the flood at the border. Am I the only one that thinks this is fairly outrageous?

"There has never been this kind of mobilization in the immigrant community ever," said Joshua Hoyt, executive director of the Illinois Coalition for Immigrant and Refugee Rights. "They have kicked the sleeping giant. It's the beginning of a massive immigrant civil rights struggle."

L.A. Times article.

I was waiting for you Danax to bring this up. Yes, you are a racist. You seem awfully proud of it too so I won't try to change that. When you label a group of people as you just did especially in a negetive light that is the worst kind of racism. I'm sure you think black people are________fill in the blank and Muslims are________. and Asians__________. My point is I'm sure you have plenty of stereo types bottled up. Which is cool, you are entitled to your own opinion. Bottom line is they are here and there is NOTHING you can do about IT.......NOTHING . So I see you either staying bitter till you die or accepting it. OH Well!! the way I see it is they ARE PEOPLE and no matter what FOX news or whoever say they are productive hard working Humble people for the most part. Yeah their are some bad apples.....which race, ethnicity, religion doesn't?

The main reason it's seen as a racist thing I think is it's because for Decades white imigrants migrated to the US most western Europeans......MILLIONS and MILLIONS flowed in with no problem what so ever... they were poor, uneducated, and settled into gehettos and formed the first gangs. Now that the imigrants are brown all of a sudden "there are Too many"

People are afraid of change.... and THERE WILL BE CHANGE. They and their descendents are already enbedded in our society.....in our political parties, schools, workforce, neighborhoods.

While I'm at it I might aswell cover the whole border arguement. Is main stream America so dense to think extreme fortification of the US/Mexican border will keep out terrorist The terrorist that conributed to 9/11 didn't come into that country through that path. They were all legally in the country at first .....and they all flew in from their country of origin. If I were a terrorist Mexico would be the last place I would come through .....I would come through Canada the largest unfortified border in the World. It's hard not to think that people who want the US/Mexican border close are not a bit racist. Mexicans and other Latinos+ spanish+ brown skin= terrorist and Canadians+English laguage= safe border......don't fool yourself. Bottom line closed or tightly monitored Southern border is a false sense of security. Here's a News flash terrorism existed years before 9/11 and will still exist for years after the US no longer exists. Our best way to fight it isn't ignorant gun toting racist attitude it's actual realiable Intellegence. Admit it our Intellegent comunity FAILED we shouldn't pour loads of money in building super walls and closing borders. It should be spent on reliable intel. Be it better equipment, reorganization, better training, recruitment or whatever. That's what you should be whining to you representative about. I digress

[DJ V Lawrence]

I was waiting for you Danax to bring this up. Yes, you are a racist. You seem awfully proud of it too so I won't try to change that. When you label a group of people as you just did especially in a negetive light that is the worst kind of racism. I'm sure you think black people are________fill in the blank and Muslims are________. and Asians__________. My point is I'm sure you have plenty of stereo types bottled up. Which is cool, you are entitled to your own opinion. Bottom line is they are here and there is NOTHING you can do about IT.......NOTHING . So I see you either staying bitter till you die or accepting it. OH Well!! the way I see it is they ARE PEOPLE and no matter what FOX news or whoever say they are productive hard working Humble people for the most part. Yeah their are some bad apples.....which race, ethnicity, religion doesn't?

The main reason it's seen as a racist thing I think is it's because for Decades white imigrants migrated to the US most western Europeans......MILLIONS and MILLIONS flowed in with no problem what so ever... they were poor, uneducated, and settled into gehettos and formed the first gangs. Now that the imigrants are brown all of a sudden "there are Too many"

People are afraid of change.... and THERE WILL BE CHANGE. They and their descendents are already enbedded in our society.....in our political parties, schools, workforce, neighborhoods.

While I'm at it I might aswell cover the whole border arguement. Is main stream America so dense to think extreme fortification of the US/Mexican border will keep out terrorist The terrorist that conributed to 9/11 didn't come into that country through that path. They were all legally in the country at first .....and they all flew in from their country of origin. If I were a terrorist Mexico would be the last place I would come through .....I would come through Canada the largest unfortified border in the World. It's hard not to think that people who want the US/Mexican border close are not a bit racist. Mexicans and other Latinos+ spanish+ brown skin= terrorist and Canadians+English laguage= safe border......don't fool yourself. Bottom line closed or tightly monitored Southern border is a false sense of security. Here's a News flash terrorism existed years before 9/11 and will still exist for years after the US no longer exists. Our best way to fight it isn't ignorant gun toting racist attitude it's actual realiable Intellegence. Admit it our Intellegent comunity FAILED we shouldn't pour loads of money in building super walls and closing borders. It should be spent on reliable intel. Be it better equipment, reorganization, better training, recruitment or whatever. That's what you should be whining to you representative about. I digress

Strong words. I agree to an extent. In terms of terrorist protection post-9-11, I couldn't agree more that protecting Mexico/American border and not using the same style methods on the American/Canadian border is flat out hypocritical. I also don't understand why it's only Mexican Americans that the government and media seems to focus on in terms of wanting to come to America. With the exception of Native Americans, EVERYBODY in America came from an immigrant family at one point. Even our forefathers came off a boat from Europe. We all claim to be Arfican-American, Hispanic-American, Anglo-American, Asian-American, or in my case, other (Jamaican-American). Nobody seems to call themselves an "American". So the fact that we don't want to make legal immigration easier and faster to people coming up from the south, and proving that they want to make a life for themselves, baffles me.

That being said, ILLEGAL immigration in Texas has gone out of control. This year especially. Too many people have died or been treated like animal trying to make it to America, and it needs to stop. Period. It's unacceptable. I'm refering to the stories of 18 people in the back of a Uhaul in 100 degree temperatures, the 30 men who were in a motel for at least three days (maybe even a week) with one toilet, and told they would die if they left the room, and the countless people that have died at the hands of negligence of the dudes trying to smuggle them, and at the same time treat them like cattle. What makes these thing worse humanity wise is the thought of these people being sent BACK to Mexico after believing that these trucks are the only and fastest way to get to the States. And I do consider it strange because if it were a Cuban immigrant, they wouldn't send them back once they reached American soil. Any other nationality is told to go back.

Lastly, to JGraspo, remember where most of our drugs are smuggled from. They go up through south of the border to America, and through our ports. Doesn't usually come down from Canada. Americans go TO Canada if they want to smoke out. Might as well make that Maple Leaf green, I guess.

[editor]

The main reason it's seen as a racist thing I think is it's because for Decades white imigrants migrated to the US most western Europeans......MILLIONS and MILLIONS flowed in with no problem what so ever.

Actually, that is incorrect, and is a point often lost in this discussion. The immigrants who flowed into America for those decades did not do it with no problem. In fact, for some it was quite difficult.

When my grandfather died I ended up with all of his old personal papers (like a neat-o hand-written birth certificate and a U.S. alien registration card showing he came from the "Empire of Germany"). Among them are pages and pages and pages of documents from the YEARS he spent trying to come to America from Germany. But he, and millions like him, did it LEGALLY, which is the point that often gets lost.

In the old world he was a farmer. Poor, uneducated, etc... just like the Mexicans trying to get into America today. When he was finally allowed to emigrate it was because he managed to get a sponsor in the U.S. that put up a certain sum of money and a personal guarantee that my grandfather would not be indigent, and because he managed to have a job waiting for him with Borden dairies. But the documents show that it was a difficult process that took years. Ironically, for several of those years he waited in Mexico for final permission to enter the country. He could have just jumped the border. I bet it was a lot easier in those days. But he had pride, dignity, and respect for the law, so he waited his turn.

The myth that millions of people came to America from Europe in the last few decades with no trouble is just that -- a myth. It's a useful myth if you're trying to turn this into a racial issue, but it remains a myth.

[JGraspo]

Actually, that is incorrect, and is a point often lost in this discussion. The immigrants who flowed into America for those decades did not do it with no problem. In fact, for some it was quite difficult.

When my grandfather died I ended up with all of his old personal papers (like a neat-o hand-written birth certificate and a U.S. alien registration card showing he came from the "Empire of Germany"). Among them are pages and pages and pages of documents from the YEARS he spent trying to come to America from Germany. But he, and millions like him, did it LEGALLY, which is the point that often gets lost.

In the old world he was a farmer. Poor, uneducated, etc... just like the Mexicans trying to get into America today. When he was finally allowed to emigrate it was because he managed to get a sponsor in the U.S. that put up a certain sum of money and a personal guarantee that my grandfather would not be indigent, and because he managed to have a job waiting for him with Borden dairies. But the documents show that it was a difficult process that took years. Ironically, for several of those years he waited in Mexico for final permission to enter the country. He could have just jumped the border. I bet it was a lot easier in those days. But he had pride, dignity, and respect for the law, so he waited his turn.

The myth that millions of people came to America from Europe in the last few decades with no trouble is just that -- a myth. It's a useful myth if you're trying to turn this into a racial issue, but it remains a myth.

I said the whole "flowed with no problem" as a comparison to immigrants today. The immigrants today still face that red tape if not more so for getting into the country. I'm sure if the immigrants(illegals) today could colud do what your grandfather did instead of going through the hell they go through they would. The millions and Millions I was reffering to were the immigrants from Western Europe from before 1776 until the early 1900s. That number which overshadows the amounts from Latin America today. The racism which is very much not a myth is the Change in migration law to limit the non Europeans into the country.

Lastly, to JGraspo, remember where most of our drugs are smuggled from

Now thats just a totally different subject. Illegals aren't runing across with drugs strapped to themselves(I'm sure a few do) The drugs are walking through Airports with balloons up peoples butts, submarines off the coast(YES drug lords have subs) and planes(YES Planes too) and tunnels, legal migrants and American citizens drive across bridges with cars and trucks loaded with them. ect......Then one would have to touch the fact that there wouldn't be a supply if not for the American Demand for the drugs(no one put a gun to their heads to try the drugs). Like I said that's drifting a bit from the subject.

This year especially. Too many people have died or been treated like animal trying to make it to America, and it needs to stop. Period. It's unacceptable. I'm refering to the stories of 18 people in the back of a Uhaul in 100 degree temperatures, the 30 men who were in a motel for at least three days (maybe even a week) with one toilet, and told they would die if they left the room, and the countless people that have died at the hands of negligence of the dudes trying to smuggle them, and at the same time treat them like cattle. What makes these thing worse humanity wise is the thought of these people being sent BACK to Mexico after believing that these trucks are the only and fastest way to get to the States

exactly that's is one point I'm trying to make These are people with souls and families that deserve to be treated with some dignity ....dignity that these new proposed laws will rob of if they are passed.

Let us not lose sight that this is the REASON for the protest. This is what this thread is about look at the top left hand title. Part of the proposed law would make it illegal to help out. That includes churches, hospitals, and just overall good samaritans.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Now thats just a totally different subject. Illegals aren't runing across with drugs strapped to themselves(I'm sure a few do) The drugs are walking through Airports with balloons up peoples butts, submarines off the coast(YES drug lords have subs) and planes(YES Planes too) and tunnels, legal migrants and American citizens drive across bridges with cars and trucks loaded with them. ect......Then one would have to touch the fact that there wouldn't be a supply if not for the American Demand for the drugs(no one put a gun to their heads to try the drugs). Like I said that's drifting a bit from the subject.

Drug smugling and illegal immigration may be two different subjects, but you're talking as if vechicles carrying illegal substances are not a part of the border protection debate. The demand for drugs are not illegal; using and selling them are. And selling them includes smuggling and bringing them into the states. It's not like illegal immigrants are strapped with crack. You're absolutely right, there. But the fact that both subjects are brought in illegally is the only connection and reason why people use drugs as part of the reason of wanting to "protect" borders.

exactly that's is one point I'm trying to make These are people with souls and families that deserve to be treated with some dignity

Absolutely

....dignity that these new proposed laws will rob of if they are passed.

Let us not lose sight that this is the REASON for the protest. This is what this thread is about look at the top left hand title. Part of the proposed law would make it illegal to help out. That includes churches, hospitals, and just overall good samaritans.

I am not aware in detail of the immigration laws being proposed. Could U update me right quick?

Also, if the Los Angeles mayor and protestors had their way and the laws were not passed, what would they suggest to do with the borders? Are they asking for no border protection, or is that an exaggeration? (I haven't heard too much about the debate from where I'm at with the exception of the protest itself).

[nmainguy]

Just so no one gets thrown off balance by JGraspo's mistaken definition of "racist". If you don't care for Hispanics just because of their ethnicity, say that. But if you are a caucasian and you hate negros for being negros-then THAT would be racist. A huge majority of illegals are Hispanic caucasians-just as the majority of US citizens are also caucasian.

When you started your rant and called danax a racist...well, I kind of wrote you off.

I just wanted to clear up this "racist" crap when it is nothing of the kind.

[Heights2Bastrop]

One problem I have is when I hear Bush and others claim that illegal aliens do a

[Guest danax]

I was waiting for you Danax to bring this up. Yes, you are a racist. You seem awfully proud of it too so I won't try to change that. When you label a group of people as you just did especially in a negetive light that is the worst kind of racism. I'm sure you think black people are________fill in the blank and Muslims are________. and Asians__________. My point is I'm sure you have plenty of stereo types bottled up.

You're stereotyping me with that last sentence. What part of what I said is untrue?

I knew this topic would get some ranters but it's an issue that Houston needs to discuss. I think we should try to detach ourselves from any emotion and exchange viewpoints in a realistic light and see through some of the smokescreens produced by special-interest groups.

My "labeling them in a negative light" is just what I see. Should I put them in a positive light just for appearances when what I see is mostly negative? Ugly barrio is a subjective term but drive over to Magnolia Park, North Main, those streets west of Eastwood etc and tell me if it's ugly there or not. As for the educational situation, I think statistics would back my statement up. Am I wrong to assume a large portion of gangs in Houston and other cities are composed of Hispanics? Do we want more of that or less of that? And I would guess that New Orleans will end up looking the same as any other barrio at some point unless very strong laws are laid down and enforced regarding neighborhood standards. I just don't think we need our cities to end up becoming like Mexico in many ways.

I live in a "Mexican" neighborhood and like the people for the most part. I'm not bitter. Some of us walk the streets passing out neighborhood newsletters and I hear the same and stronger comments from Mexican-Americans. Those countries that they come from just have lower standards in many ways.

I wouldn't care if these people were Europeans, Africans, Asians or Eskimos. If I saw what I believed was an overall negative effect being caused by their illegal entry then I would say the same thing. Immigration laws are designed to limit the flow. I was in Juarez last summer sponsoring my ex father-in-law so he could get his green card. There was a large roomful of legal immigrants getting theirs the same day, and this happens a couple of times each week, so it's not like America is preventing Mexican immigration.

What does irk me more than anything is that Americans of all types have been whooped into silence to the point where anyone making negative comments about what is observed and wanting to enforce immigration laws becomes a racist, while the lawbreakers are marching demanding "immigrant rights". What are immigrant rights? We already have human rights, and the rights of citizens. Can you not see that the balance has tipped to the point where our hands are being tied in many ways, to the glee of "civil rights" groups.

Incidents like this ;

Oakland Police Halt DUI Checkpoints after Pressure Activists Cry Roadblocks Discriminate Against those without Licenses ... Oakland police officers have stopped setting up roadblocks to check whether drivers are under the influence because of a rash of complaints from the Latino community and City Council President Ignacio De La Fuente. The checkpoints, which allow officers to demand licenses and proof of insurance, are an effective way to get drunken drivers off Oakland's streets, city leaders agree. But the checks also have ensnared scores of illegal aliens who are not licensed to drive. "These checkpoints make people's lives miserable, not make them safer," said Jesus Rodriguez of Oakland Community Organizations. The complaints and pressure from De La Fuente prompted police Chief Richard L. Word to order his officers to hold off on any more DUI checkpoints while new guidelines are drafted. "The checkpoints are a great tool for law enforcement," Word said. "We'll develop a better focus on drug hot spots and stopping sideshows." However, the month-long moratorium on checkpoints has outraged Council member Larry Reid, who calls the change a threat to public safety. "It is absolutely insane to stop these checkpoints," Reid said. "I would not want to explain to a mother why we stopped doing these checkpoints when we know they work and her son or daughter was killed." The new checkpoint guidelines may call for police to notify Latino community organizations of the time and location of coming checkpoints. While officers have some discretion, the cars of unlicensed drivers are usually towed. To get their cars back, owners must pay $125, plus any storage fees. That is a significant burden to many illegal aliens, Rodriguez said. Reid said he has little sympathy with Rodriguez's position. "I don't care if they are illegal immigrants," Reid said. "They should not be driving on our streets without a license, without insurance. I expect the Oakland PD to do its job and get them off the street."

[RedScare]

nmainguy is technically correct. Fear of too many Mexians entering the US is not racism...it would more properly be called xenophobia. But, to say someone who scratched and clawed his way into this country is lazy is flatly incorrect. Call them what you will, but lazy they are not. I also find it curious that the most vibrant and growing cities all have large Mexican populations. LA, San Diego, Phoenix, San Antonio, and DFW are all growing and economically vibrant. You may wish to disagree that the immigrants are the source of the prosperity, but you certainly cannot show that they caused a decline, because there is none.

I also find it curious that a country of people that is more mono-lingual than any other would call spanish speakers uneducated. If speaking only one language makes one uneducated, we should look in the mirror. Finally, a little honesty in the debate would be nice. There are no Mexican terrorists. The proponents of walls across the border want to keep out Mexicans, not terrorists. They should be upfront about their real motives.

I don't have a problem with hard-working immigrants coming to the US to improve their lives. They are much more appreciative and hard-working than the lazy American born workers that I come in contact with, including the caucasian contractor that hasn't shown up to pave my driveway for TWO MONTHS. However, I can't help but secretly hope for those who demand solutions to problems that do not exist, to get their wish. I secretly hope to see the road building and home building companies grind to a halt for lack of workers. I want to hear the griping in restaurants that do not have enough cooks and dish washers. And I most want to watch the upper-middle class suburbanites complain that they now have to mow their own lawns, because there are no landscapers willing to do it for $20.

A little intelligent debate on this issue would be nice. But, there has not been intelligent debate in Washington in decades, so that is a bit much to hope for. So, in the alternative, I'll just sit back and watch the economy-wrecking proposals get passed. Every advanced society in history has imported workers to fill the jobs it no longer wants, but still needs. If this country is so ignorant as to cut off it's nose to spite it's face, I'll merely stand to the side and chuckle.

[pineda]

I want to hear the griping in restaurants that do not have enough cooks and dish washers.

I would like to address this comment:

At some of the top chain restaurants in the United States, there are very strict rules governing who may be hired. There are departments set up in the home offices doing background checks and green card status checks. No manager wants to lose his job because he illegally employed an illegal alien, and that's what would happen if he were caught doing so. In the past few years, the INS kitchen raids in the Houston area have nabbed mostly illegal aliens from Mexico and south of there working in Mexican-food restaurants, where their standards are perhaps a bit more lax and tolerant of illegal aliens.

[DJ V Lawrence]

nmainguy is technically correct. Fear of too many Mexians entering the US is not racism...it would more properly be called xenophobia. But, to say someone who scratched and clawed his way into this country is lazy is flatly incorrect. Call them what you will, but lazy they are not. I also find it curious that the most vibrant and growing cities all have large Mexican populations. LA, San Diego, Phoenix, San Antonio, and DFW are all growing and economically vibrant. You may wish to disagree that the immigrants are the source of the prosperity, but you certainly cannot show that they caused a decline, because there is none.

I also find it curious that a country of people that is more mono-lingual than any other would call spanish speakers uneducated. If speaking only one language makes one uneducated, we should look in the mirror. Finally, a little honesty in the debate would be nice. There are no Mexican terrorists. The proponents of walls across the border want to keep out Mexicans, not terrorists. They should be upfront about their real motives.

I don't have a problem with hard-working immigrants coming to the US to improve their lives. They are much more appreciative and hard-working than the lazy American born workers that I come in contact with, including the caucasian contractor that hasn't shown up to pave my driveway for TWO MONTHS. However, I can't help but secretly hope for those who demand solutions to problems that do not exist, to get their wish. I secretly hope to see the road building and home building companies grind to a halt for lack of workers. I want to hear the griping in restaurants that do not have enough cooks and dish washers. And I most want to watch the upper-middle class suburbanites complain that they now have to mow their own lawns, because there are no landscapers willing to do it for $20.

A little intelligent debate on this issue would be nice. But, there has not been intelligent debate in Washington in decades, so that is a bit much to hope for. So, in the alternative, I'll just sit back and watch the economy-wrecking proposals get passed. Every advanced society in history has imported workers to fill the jobs it no longer wants, but still needs. If this country is so ignorant as to cut off it's nose to spite it's face, I'll merely stand to the side and chuckle.

It's unfortunate that more people in Washington or in the media speak as well as you do. Great points, and great post.

Gotta ask the question though. What's the true reason why there's a push for Mexican/American border security? Is it racism and fear of terrorists coming over, or is this all about money?

[RedScare]

A few numbers to consider, as we insist on shrinking our bloated economy.

There are 143 million workers in the US. There are 7.1 million unemployed, or 4.8%. There are an estimated 10 to 15 million illegal aliens in the US. Economists agree that 96% employment is "full employment", meaning that, at any given time, 4% of the work force is between jobs for various reasons, as opposed to unable to find a job.

This means that currently, about 1.1 to 1.5 million people who want to work cannot find a job. If suddenly 7.5 million working illegals are deported, and the 1.5 million Americans immediately filled their jobs, there would be a resulting 6 million worker shortage, or 4.2% of the workforce. Since there would be no way to fill those jobs, because of laws against hiring foreign workers, the US economy would have to shrink 4.2 percent to adjust to the shortage. Since companies do not want to shrink, they will increase wages to attract workers. But, there will still be a 4.2 percent shortage, resulting in inflation, since prices will rise to reflect the higher wages. The rise in prices will be most pronounced in labor intensive industries with low-wage jobs, such as construction, janitorial services and the food service industries.

The economy will only grow when there are enough workers to allow it to do so. Since native-born Americans are producing fewer children (1.8 children per woman), the population will continue to shrink, further limiting the expansion of the economy. Since there are fewer workers, taxes must rise to pay for services. Government wages for military and police will rise fastest, because these jobs are the most dangerous.

Anyone got a solution to this problem that does NOT violate the laws of macro-economics?

[torvald]

I said the whole "flowed with no problem" as a comparison to immigrants today. The immigrants today still face that red tape if not more so for getting into the country. I'm sure if the immigrants(illegals) today could colud do what your grandfather did instead of going through the hell they go through they would. The millions and Millions I was reffering to were the immigrants from Western Europe from before 1776 until the early 1900s. That number which overshadows the amounts from Latin America today. The racism which is very much not a myth is the Change in migration law to limit the non Europeans into the country.

i know many hard working mexican people who came here, legally.

they may have worked hard to do it legally but so did my friends who

are russian, german, french, moroccan and guatemalan. many of whom

came to houston to attend college, loved it here and stayed.

i would say that the added burden on the legal mexican immigrants is

that they have to overcome the negative stereotype built for them by

illegal mexican immigrants.

[sevfiv]

this might not be so much of a racial argument but a classist one, whether it be socioeconomic, education, occupation or dwelling related.

[DJ V Lawrence]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3750497.html

I understand Bush is calling for the debate to be a sensible one, but I'm not sure where he stands on the issue of the bill itself.

[pineda]

the whole speech at the immigration ceremony

[WesternGulf]

Why is it so hard to become legal in the first place that people are going through extreme measures risking their lives to cross the border. I will say that immigrants from down south probably have a harder time becoming legal in this country. You have to question something when Mexicans are treated differently than Cubans that enter this country.

[Modernceo]

Is main stream America so dense to think extreme fortification of the US/Mexican border will keep out terrorist The terrorist that conributed to 9/11 didn't come into that country through that path. They were all legally in the country at first .....and they all flew in from their country of origin. If I were a terrorist Mexico would be the last place I would come through .....I would come through Canada the largest unfortified border in the World.

I used to think just like you. Who would sneak through Mexico to get to the USA illegally if they werent Mexican, or south American in the first place.

But, then something interesting happened about 6-8 months ago.

I live in a house, and my next door neighbors are renting their house on the southwest side of Houston.

Its a family of three, husband and wife, and their son. They are Lebanese, and have been living in the USA since the late 1990's. Their son is about 16, and has spent much of his life here, speaks perfect english, goes to Westside high school and overall seems like a perfect american kid. He loves helping me with yardwork, talks about cars, we go and eat Chik fil A, etc together. Hes a great kid and unlike so many other kids in our neighborhood his age, hes not getting in trouble, stealing, etc.

Anyways, long story short, him, and his mother are here illegally. His father is here on a green card trying to get his citizenship here. His wife, and his son left Germany back in the 1990's, flew to the carribean from germany, and then from the carribean flew to mexico. They then were smuggled in by coyotes from Mexico into Texas.

So, now they are living in a house here, his father is a mechanic and is about to open his own shop, his mother works in food service for a major corporation with a fake SS number, and their son is going to school, participating in football after school, etc.

So, here it is, someone who looks to be a fine American citizen is actually here illegally. The mother is driving around without a drivers liscence, and even though shes paying taxes to a fake SS number, nothing is detected, etc. How is this not just amazing.

Before I learned this about my neighbors, I used to think that illegal aliens hid in the shadows, worked in construction, worked in kitchens in the back where people couldnt see them, etc. But, look at what they are doing ! Think of how many other people you may / may not run into on a daily basis that look like they are fine US citizens when they are not. Its simply amazing to think about.

Furthermore, I have a aquaintence who is a border agent, and hes told me that he has caught all sorts of people trying to cross the border illegally. True 85% of them are Mexican/|South American, but he has caught Irish, Chinese, Middle Easterners, Russians, etc. So, even though it does sound far fetched, dont blow the border issue / terrorists issue off. Its legitimate and not JUST a republican scare tactic.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Why is it so hard to become legal in the first place that people are going through extreme measures risking their lives to cross the border. I will say that immigrants from down south probably have a harder time becoming legal in this country. You have to question something when Mexicans are treated differently than Cubans that enter this country.

I have the same question.

[Guest danax]

nmainguy is technically correct. Fear of too many Mexians entering the US is not racism...it would more properly be called xenophobia.

No, I don't think xenophopia would pertain to my feelings at least.

Xenophopia;

an irrational fear of foreigners or strangers

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

I am making criticisms based on my observations; nasty neighborhoods, no interest in education, gangs, etc.

Other foreigners seem to not have these same issues. Asians, East Indians, for example, do well in school, take care of their neighborhoods.

and

I also find it curious that a country of people that is more mono-lingual than any other would call spanish speakers uneducated. If speaking only one language makes one uneducated, we should look in the mirror.

That's weak. Over half of Magnolia Park lacks a high school diploma. "and 71.31% of the adult population over 25 in Magnolia Park does not have a high school diploma."

Link here. I know, it's society's fault.

The economic arguments might be legitimate. I don't know, I'm not an economist. If they are, what happened? When I was 15-16, I washed dishes. Somehow everyone got by without with legal workers for the most part. Construction was a good trade to go into.

As I've said, I personally like most of the illegals I've met. I might even go so far as to say I have a natural rapport with them, for some reason. And no, you can't call them lazy as finding a panhandling Hispanic is about as easy as finding a winning lottery ticket on your front lawn.

I just think we need to limit the infiltration. And, I also see how the various groups are using this as a power grab issue. The Latino organizations want more Latinos to increase their power. The Catholic church wants more catholics. I don't want anything, except the best city and country we can get.

So, are we finally getting to the point where we can criticize a group without being attacked? It would appear not.

[Modernceo]

I have the same question.

I cant say for sure, but im going to take a guess that Cubans can become citizens easier because of the political situation in Cuba.

Mexico is poor just like Cuba, but when I compare what little I know of the two governments, it seems like Cuba's govt is more rocky, gives its citizens less freedom, etc.

[RedScare]

So, are we finally getting to the point where we can criticize a group without being attacked? It would appear not.

Who attacked you?

[jmancuso]

i with danax all the way on this.

[DJ V Lawrence]

I cant say for sure, but im going to take a guess that Cubans can become citizens easier because of the political situation in Cuba.

Mexico is poor just like Cuba, but when I compare what little I know of the two governments, it seems like Cuba's govt is more rocky, gives its citizens less freedom, etc.

Maybe the answer is simplier? Maybe America's gov't doesn't want to work the Cuban government? I mean, if we'd make a fuss about them playing baseball in America, imagine what a serious subject like immigration entails. I'm just trying to figure that all out. I keep thinking back to the Elian Gonzales story a while back. (happened while I was in high school.) We used to question if there would even be a debate if he were of another ethnicity, like say Mexican, Jamaican, or Haitian.

I agree with many of your points. Danax, thanx for the topic. WesternGulf, thanx for making me feel okay about questioning if immigration laws may have a double-standard or not. Most importantly, thanx for everyone's candidness. About time people were not afraid of being politically correct and speaking their true mind. Regardless if any of us agree or not.

Personally, I feel that our immigration laws have many flaws, and will not be solved with one law. And border security/protection I think is an over-exaggeration. Immigration control sounds more correct. And I also feel that the generalizations are a little out of context.

Danax, I do respect your opinion, but your Magnolia Park reference didn't make any sense to me. Are you saying that because Magnolia's full of nothing but illegal immigrants? 'Cause if not, than why even mention that? I did agree about the bilingual statement. And to me, it's only an "attack" on a group when a person says "ALL" in the group.

[Guest danax]

Who attacked you?

I really meant as a country.

[nmainguy]

I told myself when this thread popped up that I would try not to get involved.

Well, I did when someone called danax a "racist"-then I thought that would be as far as I would go.

Now after reading all the posts pro and con, I wonder if this isn't being turned into another fake "war"-as in the "War Against Christmas" that was so succesful for FOXNews and other far right individuals in an ongoing attempt to deflect from what is really going on in the US.

Has there been a spate of terrorists pouring over the Rio Grande? No one has shown that to be true.

Is there a glut of illegals willing to clean the toilets, mow the lawns and nanny the kids of people that have no problem hiring them at a nominal fee? No, there is no glut-there may not be enough actually to satisfy their hunger for such cheap and captive labor.

I know some of my ancestors came here with nothing and did many of these menial jobs for chicken feed because it was a far cry better from where they came from. Yes, some of them lacked formal education and no, they didn't assimilate or fit in right away; it took a couple of generations for that to happen.

There seems to be a really mean-spirited mentality at play with this issue. I think most of us are better than that. In fact, I know we are better than that. These people are going nowhere. This issue is so contentious that politicians will never come to any agreement.

I don't have the solutions-I'm not smart enough. All I can do is look to the past; to recall stories of my grandpa being called a "stupid mick" while holding his head high and raising a family of succesful Americans. There are millions of stories like that. It may do everyone well to setttle down and listen to a few of them.

[Heights2Bastrop]

I know some of my ancestors came here with nothing and did many of these menial jobs for chicken feed because it was a far cry better from where they came from. Yes, some of them lacked formal education and no, they didn't assimilate or fit in right away; it took a couple of generations for that to happen.

Same with many of my ancestors, nmainguy, and the same with ancestors of many on here. However, the difference is they didn't swim a river or climb a wall to enter this country. They came in through Ellis Island, or some other legal port of entry.