Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART)

[TxDave]

It was scrapped. Feds won't fund it.

Regarding this post about an underground downtown Dallas line... I do not think it is true (I may have missed something, if so, please let me know),

but I think you may be confused with the underground direct connection to Love Field.

DART abandoned this plan knowing that the Feds would not approve its cost effectiveness.

The City of Dallas is considering its own plans for a separate direct terminal connection to DART rail.

[Trae]

Regarding this post about an underground downtown Dallas line... I do not think it is true (I may have missed something, if so, please let me know),

but I think you may be confused with the underground direct connection to Love Field.

DART abandoned this plan knowing that the Feds would not approve its cost effectiveness.

The City of Dallas is considering its own plans for a separate direct terminal connection to DART rail.

Yeah, I knew about that one. The Feds probably won't fund any future subway in Dallas until people actually use that City Place Station.

[nucklehead]

Houston did not build its rail line. The fabulous success of DART's light rail system built it. Next Houston is going to be sinking its elevated roadways around Midtown after they witness the incredible success of Uptown. I guess Houston has become the follower in its relationship with Dallas.

[nucklehead]

Regarding this post about an underground downtown Dallas line... I do not think it is true (I may have missed something, if so, please let me know),

but I think you may be confused with the underground direct connection to Love Field.

DART abandoned this plan knowing that the Feds would not approve its cost effectiveness.

The City of Dallas is considering its own plans for a separate direct terminal connection to DART rail.

The ultimate plan is to give the new line expansion

its own subway in the future so that would make the existing line through downtown less constrictive. But yes, they are now going to have to wait to sell the idea after this present expansion is completed. But this next espansion should be successful enough to ultimately sell the idea to citizens.

[KinkaidAlum]

Uh, the biggest explosion of growth in Midtown has been the far Northwest corner right in the shadows of the Pierce Elevated (I-45).

2222 Smith, Post Midtown Square, The Rise, The Edge, Camden's new 4th Ward Apts, hundreds of metal condos, a new Spec's Superstore, etc...with 3 more larger scale developments in the immediate pipeline.

[nucklehead]

Uh, the biggest explosion of growth in Midtown has been the far Northwest corner right in the shadows of the Pierce Elevated (I-45).

2222 Smith, Post Midtown Square, The Rise, The Edge, Camden's new 4th Ward Apts, hundreds of metal condos, a new Spec's Superstore, etc...with 3 more larger scale developments in the immediate pipeline.

Yes. I had already mentioned that the fastest growth is spilling over from the Montrose area that is not inhibited by an elevated roadway. Look. Go ahead and live in denial. If Houston chooses to ignore the fact that elevated roadways slow down its development, then it is its loss. I bet when Uptown really explodes in the next few years it will wake Houston up just as the success of Dallas Light Rail helped Houston build its single light rail line.

[Trae]

I guess Portland helped DART build its rail system, too.

[KinkaidAlum]

Yes. I had already mentioned that the fastest growth is spilling over from the Montrose area that is not inhibited by an elevated roadway. Look. Go ahead and live in denial. If Houston chooses to ignore the fact that elevated roadways slow down its development, then it is its loss. I bet when Uptown really explodes in the next few years it will wake Houston up just as the success of Dallas Light Rail helped Houston build its single light rail line.

Again, the projects I listed were all built literally in the shadows of an elevated highway! Going further, these projects aren't on the edge of Montrose. They're adjacent to and part of the 4th Ward. The 4th Ward was the POOREST of all the wards up until the early 1990s.

Seems as if your theories of elevated highways and proximity to ghettos stunting growth were just blown up.

I would love to see the Pierce Elevated buried but the fact it exists hasn't stunted development by any means. From the bayou all the way down to St. Joseph's Medical Center, the areas on either side of the Pierce have seen tons of development over the last 5-10 years. Sabine St Lofts, Downtown Aquarium, Hobby Center, Buffalo Bayou trails, The Edge, Post Midtown Square, Tin Can Alley, Camden's 4th Ward project, The Rise, new downtown fire station, METRO's new headquarters, light rail, expansion at St. Joe's Medical, hundreds of independent townhomes and commercial developments, 2222 Smith St, etc...

[nucklehead]

Again, the projects I listed were all built literally in the shadows of an elevated highway! Going further, these projects aren't on the edge of Montrose. They're adjacent to and part of the 4th Ward. The 4th Ward was the POOREST of all the wards up until the early 1990s.

Seems as if your theories of elevated highways and proximity to ghettos stunting growth were just blown up.

I would love to see the Pierce Elevated buried but the fact it exists hasn't stunted development by any means. From the bayou all the way down to St. Joseph's Medical Center, the areas on either side of the Pierce have seen tons of development over the last 5-10 years. Sabine St Lofts, Downtown Aquarium, Hobby Center, Buffalo Bayou trails, The Edge, Post Midtown Square, Tin Can Alley, Camden's 4th Ward project, The Rise, new downtown fire station, METRO's new headquarters, light rail, expansion at St. Joe's Medical, hundreds of independent townhomes and commercial developments, 2222 Smith St, etc...

Okay. I am looking at a map right now. Because you are a citizen of Houston, it won't be necessary to upload it as I am referring to it. You will see that the elevated feeder roadway makes up the west / northwestern boundary of Midtown. It connects 59 south to various neighborhoods in the Montrose area ending with Westheimer. Now you do narrow the area down correctly when you refer to it as the forth ward, but the area as a whole is referred to as the Montrose area. Notice on the map how the development happening begins right north of where the elevated roadway begins at Westheimer and continues up to the Pierce elevated. This neighborhood nourishes itself from the Montrose area, not the area on the other side of Pierce with office buildings and the electric generator substation. Now there are indeed poor black folks who still live in this particular growth area of Midtown.

You continue trying to claim that the neighborhood somehow grew from downtown past the Pierce elevated. Pierce elevated on the map makes up the north / northeaster boundary of Midtown in comparison. This is simply not true. Actually it spilled in from the area where there are no freeways at all to the west / northwest. I can't believe the way Houstonians refuse to accept the problem of elevated freeways and the problems they present to long term developments. I know that the city has acknowledged in the past the wish to tackle this problem. The problem isn't burying the freeways, however. I mean what can the city of Houston do about it? The problem with below grade freeways is flooding. How do you keep them from filling up from the frequent torrential rains that happen from tropical storms? So a better response by you should be that Houston simply can't bury its freeways in Midtown instead of claiming that they aren't obstacles to its growth.

[nucklehead]

I guess Portland helped DART build its rail system, too.

Boston spent 20 billion dollars burying its freeway so that its downtown would be reconnected to the surrounding neighborhoods. This amounted to only 7 and 1/2 miles of freeway so I'm against that.

Still, Houston has an existing tunnel that goes under its ship channel and it never floods because they raise up both the entrances and the exits well above grade. This proves that Houston could replace its elevated freeways with engineered tunnel-like, below grade freeways. Just do it already. Wake up! (Poke . . . poke)

[musicman]

You continue trying to claim that the neighborhood somehow grew from downtown past the Pierce elevated. Pierce elevated on the map makes up the north / northeaster boundary of Midtown in comparison. This is simply not true.

LOL do you not realize the Pierce Elevated was built in the 1960's well after the area now known as midtown was developed? If midtown "grew" from Montrose, why do the street alignments, addresses in midtown, all coincide with Downtown, none of which match Montrose? i must say your premise is fallacious.

[Trae]

What the hell does that have to do with "Portland helped DART build its rail system"?

[MidtownCoog]

Becuase Dallas is the Portland of the Midwest!

[Trae]

It sure is. There was a story out saying Portland's extensive rail system isn't helping too much with traffic. Same with Dallas.

[Dallasboi]

It sure is. There was a story out saying Portland's extensive rail system isn't helping too much with traffic. Same with Dallas.

Yes.....We still have traffic...Every big city does and will for a long time.....However......Since our traffic Has been a little worse in the last year or so....Dallasites are really catching on to the train thing.....The trains are PACKED to capacity every morning and evening to the point where its almost un safe.......Dart is now adding longer and more frequent service to accomodate this surge in ridership...........so eventually it will help with the traffic if all of these people are waking up to mass transit.........Im pretty sure Houston Trains ar busy also......and.......they could be even more effective if the system actually went somewhere....my two pennies....

[slfunk]

Here's a blip from DART based on the stats from TAMU:

http://www.dart.org/news/news.asp?ID=768

Media Relations Contact:

Morgan Lyons

September 19, 2007

"New traffic congestion study supports expanded transit options

A new study says North Texans are spending 58 hours a year stuck in traffic at a cost of more than $2.7 billion, but expanded public transit options, like those provided by DART, can provide relief........"

".....Locally, transit saves commuters more than $102 million in travel delay costs, according to the study. DART's growing bus, rail and high occupancy vehicle (HOV) lane network is responsible for more than 330,000 passenger trips each weekday. DART officials estimate that in the corridors where transit is available, such as North Central Expressway, it can deliver the capacity of up to two freeway lanes during rush hour.

"...DART President/Executive Director Gary Thomas said the study - which examined the Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington area as a single region - points out the need for expanded transit options especially in cities not presently served by DART, the Fort Worth T or the Denton County Transit Authority. "Ours is the second-fastest growing region in the country and much of our growth is in those unserved areas....."

[musicman]

according to the texas transportation institute, from 1982 to 2005, Dallas' congestion seems to have grown. if the system was effective I would think the opposite would be occurring. their study says total delay growth in dallas is just under NY, LA and chicago for that 23 yr timeframe.

TTI study

[Dallasboi]

according to the texas transportation institute, from 1982 to 2005, Dallas' congestion seems to have grown. if the system was effective I would think the opposite would be occurring. their study says total delay growth in dallas is just under NY, LA and chicago for that 23 yr timeframe.

TTI study

As we all know....Texas is a car friendly state........it is not in our culture to take advantage of mass transit because we all LOOOOOve our cars......However.....again......Dallasites ARE catching on....moreso than when we first got the train.....so thats why it hasn't really helped in the past...Now push has came to shove and people are REALLY looking for alternatives for all of the parkinglots we call freeways here in North Texas.

[tamtagon]

according to the texas transportation institute, from 1982 to 2005, Dallas' congestion seems to have grown. if the system was effective I would think the opposite would be occurring. their study says total delay growth in dallas is just under NY, LA and chicago for that 23 yr timeframe.

TTI study

Dallas' congestion would have decreased due to highly efficient train service only if the population had grown very little. However, between 1982 and 2005, the population on the Dallas area (not including Fort Worth) pretty much doubled.

[musicman]

Dallas' congestion would have decreased due to highly efficient train service only if the population had grown very little. However, between 1982 and 2005, the population on the Dallas area (not including Fort Worth) pretty much doubled.

population is growing in many cities....yet congestion isn't growing as much because of different transit priorities which evidently are more effective. the TTI study factored population growth. because a small percentage of the population rides the rail, failure to expand the rest of the system results in more congestion.

[totheskies]

DART rail now $700M richer

Federal officials sign agency's largest grant, green-lighting growth

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...ey.1a45280.html

11:46 PM CDT on Monday, July 3, 2006

By TONY HARTZEL / The Dallas Morning News

"....Federal officials came to Dallas Area Rapid Transit on Monday, and this time they brought their checkbook.

In a morning full of pomp and ceremony, DART and the Federal Transit Administration signed a long-awaited, $700 million grant agreement.

The amount is the largest DART has ever received, and it represents the second-largest federal grant of its kind to any transit agency in the nation....."

"..The federal funds will pay for almost half of the cost to build 21 miles of light rail from Farmers Branch to Buckner Boulevard in Pleasant Grove. Those 21 miles will help launch DART's planned 45-mile, $2.5 billion expansion that is expected to be completed by the end of 2013.

For about eight years, DART and the local congressional delegation have lobbied extensively for the grant.

The transit administration announced in February that it would give DART the money, but the award was then subject to reviews and congressional approval.

"This is a great day for Dallas," said U.S. Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas, who fought for the DART funds on Capitol Hill.

Although San Antonio and Houston created transit agencies before Dallas, "DART has made up for lost time," Mrs. Hutchison said. "DART has surpassed Houston and San Antonio with its commitment to rail early on. It wasn't easy, but this is going to benefit our area for years to come."

DART's system is recognized nationally for its successful 10-year operating history and its impact on the region, Ms. Bushue said. In addition, DART helps its standing with federal officials because it can pledge more of its sales tax revenue to projects than many other transit agencies, she said...."

"....Minor work has started on the northwest and southeast lines, and workers could start laying the first tracks early next year.

The first section of the new line is scheduled to open to Fair Park in September 2009. The rest of the federally funded section between Farmers Branch and Pleasant Grove is planned to open in late 2010. DART-funded extensions to Carrollton, Irving, Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport and Rowlett are expected to open between 2010 and 2013.

To some leaders, the rail line represents more than just rapid transit. DART's new rail lines will connect Fair Park, Deep Ellum, Baylor University Medical Center at Dallas, the hospital district, Dallas Love Field, D/FW Airport and northwest Dallas County suburbs...."

Yeah, there we go. I'm glad to see early construction stages for phase two now. All the universities will greatly benefit from the rail options, as well as Third Ward. We have to keep it coming though. I think that rail transit is much more important than looks; it spurrs traffic and commuter solutions that are ten and twenty-fold.

[Dallasboi]

Yeah, there we go. I'm glad to see early construction stages for phase two now. All the universities will greatly benefit from the rail options, as well as Third Ward. We have to keep it coming though. I think that rail transit is much more important than looks; it spurrs traffic and commuter solutions that are ten and twenty-fold.

Are u from Dallas or Houston?...This article is about DART.....But yet...3rd Ward is in Houston....Huh?

[totheskies]

Okay. I am looking at a map right now. Because you are a citizen of Houston, it won't be necessary to upload it as I am referring to it. You will see that the elevated feeder roadway makes up the west / northwestern boundary of Midtown. It connects 59 south to various neighborhoods in the Montrose area ending with Westheimer. Now you do narrow the area down correctly when you refer to it as the forth ward, but the area as a whole is referred to as the Montrose area. Notice on the map how the development happening begins right north of where the elevated roadway begins at Westheimer and continues up to the Pierce elevated. This neighborhood nourishes itself from the Montrose area, not the area on the other side of Pierce with office buildings and the electric generator substation. Now there are indeed poor black folks who still live in this particular growth area of Midtown. You continue trying to claim that the neighborhood somehow grew from downtown past the Pierce elevated. Pierce elevated on the map makes up the north / northeaster boundary of Midtown in comparison. This is simply not true. Actually it spilled in from the area where there are no freeways at all to the west / northwest. I can't believe the way Houstonians refuse to accept the problem of elevated freeways and the problems they present to long term developments. I know that the city has acknowledged in the past the wish to tackle this problem. The problem isn't burying the freeways, however. I mean what can the city of Houston do about it? The problem with below grade freeways is flooding. How do you keep them from filling up from the frequent torrential rains that happen from tropical storms? So a better response by you should be that Houston simply can't bury its freeways in Midtown instead of claiming that they aren't obstacles to its growth.

I don't see how the elevated freeways are hindering any of Houston's growth. Houston is not Dallas, or New York, or San Francisco. We worry about floods, and we're located near the tropics, but God forbid there be a major earthquake on the West Coast, o a NorEaster anywhere near New York. EVERY MAJOR CITY worries about nature. Development... nothing stops expansion in this city. The old 4th Ward is all but gone... there are about 5 disjunct blocks of row houses left in the midst of new developments, or lots that have been cleared off for it. The progress is astoundingly fast, and soon the whole area surrounding downtown will be dense and walkable (which can hopefully spawn a necessity for rail transit). The juxtaposition of all of this and the Pierce Elevated is actually pretty neat. The freeway system in Houston is a combination of elavated sections and trenches, and probably the best single system in the country. Not only for traffic ability and handling, but also b/c the trenches actually PROTECT the city's vital center from major floods. Drivers are stupid, traffic is stupid... we can't change that, but we can be grateful for the planning of our freeways, encourage the speedy building of our rail system, and enjoy the city that we have.

Are u from Dallas or Houston?...This article is about DART.....But yet...3rd Ward is in Houston....Huh?

Seeing as it is a Houston forum, there is an implied comparison among the two transit systems. I'm from Houston, and 'lived' in Arlington for about four months. I think that DART is about the coolest system that we have in Texas, and I hope that METRO is moving in that direction.

[TxDave]

I think that DART is about the coolest system that we have in Texas, and I hope that METRO is moving in that direction.

METRO's plans to convert planned BRT lines to light rail is a huge step in that direction

[dfwcre8tive]

Here's a map I created showing the new routes for light rail and commuter rail coming on line in the next few years. Additionally there will be a second downtown route either in subway or on the surface... still being decided now.

[MDE]

WASHINGTON

[Trae]

So, an underground people mover like the one at IAH?

And njjeppson, since when as the Orange Line been slated to go north to LBJ-Central? Every map I have seen has it ending in Downtown at Union Station. Tyler-Vernon doesn't have parking either.

[MDE]

More like the underground people mover at DEN.

[dfwcre8tive]

So, an underground people mover like the one at IAH?

And njjeppson, since when as the Orange Line been slated to go north to LBJ-Central? Every map I have seen has it ending in Downtown at Union Station. Tyler-Vernon doesn't have parking either.

You're right... I had Tyler/Vernon and Hampton mixed up on the map. Old maps show the Orange Line continuing up to LBJ. There is extra track for a turnaround/holding area just north of LBJ/Central Station. Although the new maps don't show this line going up there, if you read the planning documents they discuss direct service to LBJ and this was recently confirmed by a DART staff member when I inquired about it.

Also under discussion is a second rail line through Downtown which should open soon after the Green/Orange Line service begins.

[dfwcre8tive]

http://www.dart.org/news/news.asp?ID=772

December 4, 2007

DART Officials Work to Rein in Costs for Future Irving/Rowlett Rail Lines

Citing escalating costs of construction materials and services worldwide, officials of Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) are going back to the drawing board this week to trim up to $900 million in projected costs for future light rail extensions to North Irving, DFW International Airport and Rowlett.

...

Currently, DART's 20-Year Financial Plan includes $988 million for the Irving/Rowlett rail extensions, and the $900 million escalation would bring the actual cost closer to $1.9 billion, officials said.

...

DART officials plan to complete the cost review and update its Financial Plan for the Irving and Rowlett extensions in early 2008.

_______________

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...g.69a0e3b2.html

DART says rising costs could delay future rail expansion

Irving officials upset about potential cuts to Orange Line