My trip to Atlanta this week

[The Great Hizzy!]

This whole thread is odd, IMO. I don't have any problem with his love for Atlanta. In fact, I encourage it, I just don't understand the point of his using Houston as his constant barometer, especially when every "point" is... well... off.

I mean, "Underground Atlanta is like Sharpstown Mall... except underground."

I mean, really odd stuff. Are we supposed to be upset that we don't have Sharpstown DT? I'd say we dodged a huge bullet, actually (and literally).

Really odd.

[VelvetJ]

He makes good points though. I am sure he can throw out one sided descriptions of you on your view of Houston. Concealing issues is not healthy.

VelvetJ, I hear you. Just a note though, never mentioned San Francisco. Totally different era of building, but the other cities I mentioned are smart growth cities that Houston really has no problem with becoming or atleast incorporating some practices into our city. Atlanta is doing a great job with its current projects but I really do not understand why they should be a posterchild on this forum for what Houston's future should represent in almost EVERY aspect. I understand the city is "comparable", meaning it is easier to reach these goals, but why stop there? One thing I do envy about Atlanta is definitely Midtown. It IS truly becoming an urban planners wet dream.

I think Houston's main problem is how long it takes for projects to come to fruition. Why not embrace trying to bring back traditional retail to downtown rather than building from scratch developments that serve as a destination and not part of a greater community? Why not embrace that we are not a geographically beautiful city but we are taking steps to take advantage of bringing life to our natural waterways? Why not embrace the center city one day actually becoming the transporation hub for the Houston metro which brings attention to the core of the city? Why not embrace that we are diversifying our economy by continuing to build up on what truly is a world class medical campus, which I really do believe only represents the beginning of that place. Under all this, we still have our problems being the most developer driven city in the nation which is unfortunately something we have to deal with unlike other things. I do believe things are being pursued, just not at a quick pace. Believe me, I am not pulling a Gary here and I understand where you are coming from because you actually do love this city.

It just gets annoying to hear, we need a subway, not because of the problems we have had with our current line, but because it looks more urban and because Atlanta has it we should have no problem getting one. Or how about we should have built retail under some apartmens on a side street that is not even a commercial boulevard because it looks more urban totally misunderstanding some key concepts of urban design but because it looks more pretty and some sister city currently has it. Or bulldozing some historic walkable neighborhoods for townhomes because it does not look big city enough and we should not have neighborhoods like those anymore. Or we should build a university, yes I said it, build a university in downtown to improve foot traffic and it could help the cbd boom more. I am sure all of these qualities are taking from one city which is Atlanta. It gets annoying. I am not saying you are the breeder of these comments but you should get the idea.

WesternGulf, I do understand what you are saying and agree with you. Believe it or not, I even have gotten my share of frustrations out of unrealistic comparisons to Atlanta, but I typically do not respond to them. I suppose that lack of responses have led to a perception that I think Atlanta is the epitome of all that Houston should be, which is far from the truth.

I typically will compare Houston with Dallas and Atlanta on certain issues because like you stated, those cities are more comparable. But I would love to include Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco, New York, or any city in the conversation when in comes to making Houston the best it could be. That's what I love so about the new park coming to downtown. They checked around the world and found the best things about certain parks that would work here and are implementing them.

I agree that a major issue I have is the amount of time it takes for things to come to fruition. Not in the sense that I expect 200 miles of rail within 2 years, but in that we seem to be slow in even getting the idea. Why is that? Why HAS it taken so long for us to realize that the entrance way to our city looks like a junkyard and should be improved? Why DID it take so long for our citizens to understand the ultimate NEED for some form of a rail system? How long WILL it take for someone in power to notice the incredibly rapid tree reduction happening on the north side of the city? When WILL our citizens get a understanding, of the concept that Houston can be more than just a place to do business? When WILL we realize the downside to allowing developers to run amuck in our city?

There is so much potential in this city, I don't want us to screw it up. Midtown is such an opportunity. The Intermodule facility is such an opportunity. Since we don't have much rail and are one of the largest cities with so little, there is a wonderful opportunity to learn from others and do it correctly to make it fantastic. Will we? Highway 288 is such an opportunity. Will it look like the I-45 of today in 20 years? Honestly, our history, well at least since I have been in Houston, has created a bit of concern for me.

I think even the common sense of those that disagrees with me on this site tells them that I am very much aware of what is going on in this city and how it is progressing. The fact that I have not said anything negative about the Pavillion, the new park, the design of 2727 Kirby, the urban development going in across the street from it, or the possible future of Rice Village, is my version of speaking very loudly in support of them. But after saying countless times that my criticism comes from a place of love for Houston, I feel I no longer should (well except for that one last time I just posted it ).

Back to the topic of Atlanta, to be quite honest, for the past decade I have considered Atlanta to be sort of a little brother of Houston in a number of ways on certain levels. But I think sooner rather than later, it may be necessary to refer to it as our big brother......and the city competitor in me does not like that.

On another note, those that have been aware of me over the past 6 years are very much aware of the bloody battles I have been in in defense of Houston, so those that think I criticize the city just for the sake of doing so, are way off base.

[citykid09]

This whole thread is odd, IMO. I don't have any problem with his love for Atlanta. In fact, I encourage it, I just don't understand the point of his using Houston as his constant barometer, especially when every "point" is... well... off.

I mean, "Underground Atlanta is like Sharpstown Mall... except underground."

I mean, really odd stuff. Are we supposed to be upset that we don't have Sharpstown DT? I'd say we dodged a huge bullet, actually (and literally).

Really odd.

Whats wrong with Sharpstown? LOL!!!!

[Trae]

Don't make me laugh. Do you even know thing about Montrose?

[Jeebus]

Whats wrong with Sharpstown? LOL!!!!

Try living there.

[Highway6]

Since he is insistent on having a pissing contest here....

What better way to show off the size of your city's ****, than to compare skylines.

We can all acknowledge Chicago and NYC have the best, but it is also widely accepted that Houston is the next best in the US.

This is from a site that tries to quantify the impressiveness of city skylines.

It was updated last month.. Also notice that Houston held constant while Atlanta slipped 4 places on the Global scale.

I know this is not a scientific study, but it's nice to see that Houston still has bigger feet than Atlanta !!

[WesternGulf]

Not that I am going flip flop here, but Houston also has a taller skyline than London and DC. My question is what does skyline prove? Houston's is nice though.

edit: Should I have not made that comment all together?

[Highway6]

Not that I am going flip flop here, but Houston also has a taller skyline than London and DC. My question is what does skyline prove?

Nothing really.

But since 'which is more urban', and 'which city is bigger', and 'which is growing faster', keep coming up..... I think urban is more than just lifestyle, it's also image.. and a city's skyline is a big part of that image.

Also the fact that Atlanta's skyline rating is slipping while Houston is staying constant, one could argue, Atlanta's growth is not as urban as Houston's.

[WesternGulf]

WesternGulf, I do understand what you are saying and agree with you. Believe it or not, I even have gotten my share of frustrations out of unrealistic comparisons to Atlanta, but I typically do not respond to them. I suppose that lack of responses have led to a perception that I think Atlanta is the epitome of all that Houston should be, which is far from the truth.

I typically will compare Houston with Dallas and Atlanta on certain issues because like you stated, those cities are more comparable. But I would love to include Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco, New York, or any city in the conversation when in comes to making Houston the best it could be. That's what I love so about the new park coming to downtown. They checked around the world and found the best things about certain parks that would work here and are implementing them.

I agree that a major issue I have is the amount of time it takes for things to come to fruition. Not in the sense that I expect 200 miles of rail within 2 years, but in that we seem to be slow in even getting the idea. Why is that? Why HAS it taken so long for us to realize that the entrance way to our city looks like a junkyard and should be improved? Why DID it take so long for our citizens to understand the ultimate NEED for some form of a rail system? How long WILL it take for someone in power to notice the incredibly rapid tree reduction happening on the north side of the city? When WILL our citizens get a understanding, of the concept that Houston can be more than just a place to do business? When WILL we realize the downside to allowing developers to run amuck in our city?

There is so much potential in this city, I don't want us to screw it up. Midtown is such an opportunity. The Intermodule facility is such an opportunity. Since we don't have much rail and are one of the largest cities with so little, there is a wonderful opportunity to learn from others and do it correctly to make it fantastic. Will we? Highway 288 is such an opportunity. Will it look like the I-45 of today in 20 years? Honestly, our history, well at least since I have been in Houston, has created a bit of concern for me.

I think even the common sense of those that disagrees with me on this site tells them that I am very much aware of what is going on in this city and how it is progressing. The fact that I have not said anything negative about the Pavillion, the new park, the design of 2727 Kirby, the urban development going in across the street from it, or the possible future of Rice Village, is my version of speaking very loudly in support of them. But after saying countless times that my criticism comes from a place of love for Houston, I feel I no longer should (well except for that one last time I just posted it ).

Back to the topic of Atlanta, to be quite honest, for the past decade I have considered Atlanta to be sort of a little brother of Houston in a number of ways on certain levels. But I think sooner rather than later, it may be necessary to refer to it as our big brother......and the city competitor in me does not like that.

On another note, those that have been aware of me over the past 6 years are very much aware of the bloody battles I have been in in defense of Houston, so those that think I criticize the city just for the sake of doing so, are way off base.

I didn't need a crystal ball for that. No but seriously, I understnd your sentiments. I guess I did not understand why ATL should always be Houston's mentor, but then again I kind of understood from the beginning as you pointed out.

[citykid09]

Back to the topic of Atlanta, to be quite honest, for the past decade I have considered Atlanta to be sort of a little brother of Houston in a number of ways on certain levels. But I think sooner rather than later, it may be necessary to refer to it as our big brother......and the city competitor in me does not like that.

On another note, those that have been aware of me over the past 6 years are very much aware of the bloody battles I have been in in defense of Houston, so those that think I criticize the city just for the sake of doing so, are way off base.

You just said exaclty what I have been trying to tell these people. Thank You!

If the day ever comes when Houston's metro population is surpassed by Atlanta's, then I will be very mad. I always want Houston to be the best at everything, and I don't know if I can take Atlanta claming to be bigger than Houston.

[WesternGulf]

ummmm...well not exactly. There used to be a zoning ordinace-or at least an un-spoken agreement that nothing in D.C. exceed 13 floors. London was never seen as a place for high rises until late in the 20th century and it is still a valid argument.

So yes: Houston's is longer than D.C.'s and London's but not relevant in the greater scheme of things.

I think DC's is the building cannot be 20 feet taller than the street it faces.

[citykid09]

I think DC's is the building cannot be 20 feet taller than the street it faces.

Do you think that if it was allowed that DC would have a really big skyline? I really don't know what DC's skyline looks like.

[zaphod]

atlanta is nice. i wish houston had the hills and MARTA, but thats about it.

back in the 70's there was a push to build rapid transit systems and first DC got a subway, then atlanta got its subway, after that miami got its elevated train, and after that it was supposed to be dallas's turn to get a subway but that got killed by politics. Had that push continued id bet we'd actually have that damn monorail by now. Light rail is great but it just doesnt compare really to a full scale rapid transit system

[citykid09]

atlanta is nice. i wish houston had the hills and MARTA, but thats about it.

back in the 70's there was a push to build rapid transit systems and first DC got a subway, then atlanta got its subway, after that miami got its elevated train, and after that it was supposed to be dallas's turn to get a subway but that got killed by politics. Had that push continued id bet we'd actually have that damn monorail by now. Light rail is great but it just doesnt compare really to a full scale rapid transit system

Thank You! you are one of the only ones that agrees with me about light rail. Light rail is something you use in addition to heavy rail systems. And yes, even Atlanta is get a lightrail, and a commuter rail system in addition to the heavy rail subway lines they already have.

[MidtownCoog]

CityKid will figure it out one day.

I think back about how many cities I have fallen in love with. "I could live here" I would say all caught up in the moment.

Hell, I even fell in love with St. Louis once before.

Love, lust, reality and lack of experience. It's a crazy mix.

[Highway6]

Thank You! you are one of the only ones that agrees with me about light rail. Light rail is something you use in addition to heavy rail systems. And yes, even Atlanta is get a lightrail, and a commuter rail system in addition to the heavy rail subway lines they already have.

If you look at Houston Metro's long term plan.. Heavy Commuter Rail is part of it. It Will be in addition to lightrail.

Houston had to start somewhere. What good would it have been to start with CRT from the suburbs with nowhere to go once you get into town except hop on a bus.

Marta might be nice.. I've never seen it.. but you're comparing grape juice to wine here. Houston is just getting started.. albeit, very late in the game. Ya have to start somewhere...

You're basically saying.. Houston should not have started with the lightrail line it did... so... Where would you have started.

If you had had a clean slate, were in charge of metro, and had enough money for an intial 7-10 mile line.. what would you have done better ?

Personally I think Lightrail is prefectly fine for what we have now to build some flagship spines.. especially since it hits some of the touristy and nicer areas, ultimately I think for an in-city transit system, in a city with an already highly developed road and freeway system.. you're gonna have to move off grade... or separated somehow. With the tunnel system we have downtown, I'd love to see subway incoprorated into the longterm plan. Anything elevated seems so much more impersonal.. I'd hate to see monorail come here.

[citykid09]

I guess this Kroger development is something like what will go in to that old car dealership on Westhimer near the highland village.

Click on the link and once you get there you can click over and look down the street. This is in the Buckhead area.

Atlanta's Peachtree Developments/ Images

[CincoRanch-HoustonResident]

We don't need Atlanta Development News.

[MidtownCoog]

We don't need Atlanta Development News.

PRINT IT

[Gary]

I guess this Kroger development is something like what will go in to that old car dealership on Westhimer near the highland village.

Click on the link and once you get there you can click over and look down the street. This is in the Buckhead area.

Atlanta's Peachtree Developments/ Images

Wow! I've been on the road since Tuesday and citykid is still on his Atlanta binge. Amazing!

I'm curious, does anyone know his age?

[houstonfella]

I remember moving to San Francisco because I "fell in love" with the city. Three months. I couldn't wait to get back to Houston. Citykid probably got laid in Atlanta and thinks it's all that. Been there. Done that. Come to your senses. And ... does a larger population mean a better place to live? I liked Houston better in the 70s, when it was the size of Dallas.

[worldlyman]

I'm probably going to regret chiming in on this, but City Kid is really pushing this Atlanta thing a little hard.

Atlanta is a decent city but not to the degree citykid makes it out.

I was unimpressed with there downtown, it lacked any density and was quite frankly boring. The weekend nightlife didn't hold a candle to Houston's Main Street. They deffinately have more people in there streets than Houston, but there skyline isn't close to H-Town's.

Buckhead had some nice highrises but to say it's comparable to Uptown Houston, is goofy at best. It was a glorified business park to me, with the exception of the regency area which was decent.

The Marta was nice to have while there. Houston could use a page out od ATL's book here.

By the way, to prove one of my points, here is Buckhead.

And Uptown Houston.

So what's up with Buckhead citykid?

ATL comes across as a friendly city like Houston and it's fairly big, but not as city kid makes it out. They have a few decent urban areas as well, but to make it out that any of them are remotely like Boston or any other East coast city is rediculous and inflated.

Houston comes across as much bigger to me, with a more eclectic feel. Our CBD is much bigger and far more dense. Hell, Uptown Houston is as big as Downtown ATL.

I like Atlanta but not to the degree that I like Houston. I'm still blown away by how massive this city is, and it has such great potential in the long run. Houston's still the highrise and population capitol of the South and Southwest until someone knocks us off our pedestal. One things for sure, ATL won't do it anytime soon.

Long live Houston.

I've been to Atlanta about four times. I was once a student at Tampa Technical Institute and for "spring break", a buddy and I went up there to party. I knew I was going to compare it to both Tampa and Houston. It is sophisticated compared to Tampa, definitely. But Atlanta just lacks the overall edge that Houston has. There is not even a real spread around immigrant community that Houston has. But the ATL has "Buford Highway" as the main drag, the one-stop international spot of genuine ethnic businesses (mostly Korean with some Vietnamese here, Indian there, etc.).

Houston has Bellaire (mixed Chinese-Viet), Long Point (Korean), Bissonnet in long stretches from Alief to West U.(Filipino, Pakistani, Nigerian, El Salvadoran, Mexican), Hillcroft (Persian, Indian, Pakistani), Travis/Louisiana(Vietnamese), Veteran's Memorial (mixed Asian: Chinese, Vietnamese, Indian, Filipino, etc). Of course, Houston is a close rival to Atlanta in terms of African-American affection (Tampa is vilified). For Latin Americans, it's not even close.

Atlanta cannot match that. Pure and simple. But I think that citykid likes a sort of cute Disney-like conformity in a Sun Belt city and the ATL provides that more for him.

Houston has a more sophisticated downtown that seems to have a true glass/concrete vibe even if its character is constantly evolving. Atlanta has a downtown with a semblance of underused utility and scope. Kind of like that of Dallas or Phoenix or L.A.'s newer downtown sections. The Underground is just a tourist trap. It draws away from downtown proper. At least Houston's tunnel system has an enjoyable sense of purpose despite it not being an actual touristy point. When I used to work at the South Texas College of Law, I enjoyed my lunch hours, people watching, munching, walking and smoothie drinking almost every day. In Atlanta? If I lived there, I would probably look forward to The Underground maybe once every six months.

The Super Bowls sort of put it in perspective. When Atlanta had it, there were complaints of lack of a big party scene. In Houston, it got props for the Main Street nightly fest. I wonder where citykid can say Houston needs catching up?

Outside of the main cute commercial areas...Atlanta's feel is kind of rural. There are not really the dense Sharpstowns, Westchases and Shepherd Plazas to complement the sprawl. Greenway Plaza and the Med. Center are nice options for misc. diversions/needs in Houston. There are not much in the way of parallel drags to offset Peachtree...and that causes some really hellacious freeway traffic that I consider to be proportionately worse than L.A.'s. In Houston and L.A. one can always use the Eldridges, Sepulvedas, Kirkwoods, Western Aves, W. Bellforts and Vermonts to get off the freeways. I didn't really notice those options in Atlanta, but maybe I'm overlooking.

While there is the alternative area in Atlanta called Five Points or something like that, it totally lacks the organic attachment that The Montrose enjoys.

Yeah, Buckhead seems to have that Deep Ellum-like look, if more upscale...Peachtree is a more sidewalk-friendly version of Westheimer...but I'm into the total package, not necessarily faux-urban semantics. I'd rather party or eat in Rice Village, a cool but still wild alterntaive to downtown, than in Buckhead.

Atlanta might look good, even cuter (as if that matters) than Houston, but contrary to what citykid says, in terms of higher arts, truly eclectic ethnic eateries and international population...the ATL has A LOT of catching up to do with H-town.

[worldlyman]

Thank You! you are one of the only ones that agrees with me about light rail. Light rail is something you use in addition to heavy rail systems. And yes, even Atlanta is get a lightrail, and a commuter rail system in addition to the heavy rail subway lines they already have.

Rail is nice. Really it is. I enjoy taking the San Diego Trolley when possible (great way to avoid those subfascist and routine "DUI and license" checkpoints here).

But it is not a cure-all. It does not make people abandon their cars and reduce congestion. In San Diego, people can easily take the Trolley from South Bay to downtown or Old Town or Fashion/Mission Valley...if they work there. Yet...traffic from north to south on I-805 and I-5 is still ridiculous. Rail does not take people to Kearney Mesa and other such business points between La Jolla and Poway. If you work up along the busy districts going to Escondido and past, you are SOL. I make this perspective being a South Bay resident.

Rail is not a total solution in a sprawling Sun Belt city but it helps. There are still many bus transfers to take, station parking lots one must still use an automobile to get to.

There is rail, The Coaster, to take people from South County San Diego to North County (Oceanside, Carlsbad, etc.) but who's going to spend 20 bucks a ticket for work?

I'm glad Houston is doing what it can to get rail expanded...but rail is one aspect I refuse to consider when accounting for a city's overall appeal.

[editor]

There is rail, The Coaster, to take people from South County San Diego to North County (Oceanside, Carlsbad, etc.) but who's going to spend 20 bucks a ticket for work?

Thousands of people. Heck, I remember my mother used to spend $160/week commuting into New York by bus each week. People in Chicago easily spend $20 each way on Metra or Amtrak to get to work. I'm sure there are runs in New York that are double that. I think it only sounds outrageous because you're not used to it.

[worldlyman]

Thousands of people. Heck, I remember my mother used to spend $160/week commuting into New York by bus each week. People in Chicago easily spend $20 each way on Metra or Amtrak to get to work. I'm sure there are runs in New York that are double that. I think it only sounds outrageous because you're not used to it.

Yeah, but in a town like New York, a good majority of people do not own cars and the expenses that go with them. Spending that much on public transit in the Big Apple is not as bad, I suppose, when there aren't personal automobile issues involved.

In San Diego, like Houston or L.A., it's a sprawlfest where people have to have cars. They pay ungodly rents here, pay in extreme fuel costs, the car note and whatever else. I think I over-estimated on the Coaster fare but still to pay an extra $150 monthly for public transit (and that's just the Pass special) on top of car ownership is out of the question. So still it's an automobile society in San Diego County despite the nice public rail line.

[citykid09]

Thousands of people. Heck, I remember my mother used to spend $160/week commuting into New York by bus each week. People in Chicago easily spend $20 each way on Metra or Amtrak to get to work. I'm sure there are runs in New York that are double that. I think it only sounds outrageous because you're not used to it.

I spend that musch when I am in New York, cummuting from Manhattan to the Middle of long island.

What I think is weird is how bis Atlanta freeways are compared to Houstons. Here is a discusion about it on here:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...ic=11758&st=580

I told the people on there when you add in Houston's feeder roads and sperate HOV lanes it adds up to be about the same, if not more. What I don't get about Houstons HOV is why is there only one in the middle? What about the people going the other way?

I wonder how they get all of that traffic in Atlanta with all of those lanes? It seems like it would be less traffic. Isn't the Katy freeway going to be wider then this?

[brijonmang]

What I don't get about Houstons HOV is why is there only one in the middle? What about the people going the other way?

are you serious? they switch the direction of the HOV lanes for the morning and evening commutes

[citykid09]

are you serious? they switch the direction of the HOV lanes for the morning and evening commutes

I knew that, but other cities have them going both ways without barriers like the picture below in Atlanta.

[sevfiv]

I knew that, but other cities have them going both ways without barriers like the picture below in Atlanta.

we have that as well in certain areas (I-10 west)

[RedScare]

I spend that musch when I am in New York, cummuting from Manhattan to the Middle of long island.

What I think is weird is how bis Atlanta freeways are compared to Houstons. Here is a discusion about it on here:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...ic=11758&st=580

I told the people on there when you add in Houston's feeder roads and sperate HOV lanes it adds up to be about the same, if not more. What I don't get about Houstons HOV is why is there only one in the middle? What about the people going the other way?

I wonder how they get all of that traffic in Atlanta with all of those lanes? It seems like it would be less traffic. Isn't the Katy freeway going to be wider then this?

Are you REALLY bragging about Atlanta's 16 lane freeways?