Champion Forest/Memorial Northwest

[mrfootball]

Oh brother...another Woodlands evangelist...

Compare them to exact the same houses in The Woodlands and you'll see they're a lot cheaper.

Good lord, where do you get this stuff? Gimme some of whatever you're smoking, padre...Apples to apples the homes in 77379 are every bit as expensive as in The Woodlands, and in many cases more expensive.

As for your "economically disadvantaged" statement:

I wouldn't quite call 5% economically disadvantaged an alarming number...Memorial HS has 2 times that number. Don't throw the dirt on them yet, 95% are not 'economically disadvantaged' at Klein HS. If you knew the area, you'd know that the Klein feeder zone is almost entirely built out, and there aren't very many apartment complexes, however there are a lot of $250K+ to $1)+Million homes....MANY, MANY more than there are in The Woodlands.

You may have gotten screwed before on a bad investment, but if you knew much about NW Houston and its idiosynchracies, you'd have known where to buy in the first place. Spring ISD made bad choices that created the environment you described, I know because we used to live there until 1990. We got out just before it started to go downhill. Most of the original residents took off for Klein, Cypress or The Woodlands.

It's fairly reasonable to say that Klein will remain a great school and a terrific area. The most bulletproof HS areas in NW Houston are Klein HS, Cypress Woods HS, and The Woodlands after that...Cypress Creek, TW College Park, Klein Oak, Cy-Fair, and Tomball are also great choices...after that Klein Collins. Schools I'd stay away from: Westfield, Spring, Klein Forest (sad that all of these went in the pooper)...Spring's demise isn't complete but' the hood' is heading North on I-45 towards the Woodlands in a hurry).

[SpringTX]

Oh brother...another Woodlands evangelist...

Good lord, where do you get this stuff? Gimme some of whatever you're smoking, padre...Apples to apples the homes in 77379 are every bit as expensive as in The Woodlands, and in many cases more expensive.

As for your "economically disadvantaged" statement:

I wouldn't quite call 5% economically disadvantaged an alarming number...Memorial HS has 2 times that number. Don't throw the dirt on them yet, 95% are not 'economically disadvantaged' at Klein HS. If you knew the area, you'd know that the Klein feeder zone is almost entirely built out, and there aren't very many apartment complexes, however there are a lot of $250K+ to $1)+Million homes....MANY, MANY more than there are in The Woodlands.

You may have gotten screwed before on a bad investment, but if you knew much about NW Houston and its idiosyncracies, you'd have known where to buy in the first place. Spring ISD made bad choices that created the environment you described, I know because we used to live there until 1990. We got out just before it started to go downhill. Most of the original residents took off for Klein, Cypress or The Woodlands.

It's fairly reasonable to say that Klein will remain a great school and a terrific area. The most bulletproof HS areas in NW Houston are Klein HS, Cypress Woods HS, and The Woodlands after that...Cypress Creek, TW College Park, Klein Oak, Cy-Fair, and Tomball are also great choices...after that Klein Collins. Schools I'd stay away from: Westfield, Spring, Klein Forest (sad that all of these went in the pooper)...Spring's demise isn't complete but' the hood' is heading North on I-45 towards the Woodlands in a hurry).

Klein Forest, once a gem in its day, now down the tubes. Klein Collins, shiny when it started, now tarnished and headed on a downhill slide as junk creeps up Kuykendahl. Klein Oak, once the pride of Northampton, now fed by new subdivisions around it starting in the $110's, not to mention the Grand Parkway.

Klein HS? It's certainly the best in Klein ISD, but it seems more like a last outpost surrounded by a wasteland of decline. It has lost its Exemplary status like every other high school in Klein. And its property values have been flat compared to The Woodlands. See below:

Klein HS:

Champions Forest, at $73 sf, up from $70 in 2000, or 4% growth:

http://www.har.com/neighborhoods/showdetai...sid=1110035000&

Memorial Northwest, at $56 sf, up from $54 in 2000, or 4% growth:

http://www.har.com/neighborhoods/showdetai...sid=1102547000&

Spring Creek Oaks, at $72 sf, down from $74 in 2000, or a 3% decline:

http://www.har.com/neighborhoods/showdetai...sid=1115019001&

Terranova West, at $61 sf, up from $60 in 2000, or 2% growth:

http://www.har.com/neighborhoods/showdetai...sid=1114295001&

Average prices: $73, $56, $72, $61

The Woodlands:

The Woodlands Village of Grogan's Mill, at $74 sf, up from $63 in 2000, or 17% growth:

http://www.har.com/neighborhoods/showdetai...m?sid=3S972800&

The Woodlands Village of Panther Creek, at $78 sf, up from $73 in 2000, or 7% growth:

http://www.har.com/neighborhoods/showdetai...m?sid=3S972600&

The Woodlands Village of Cochran's Crossing, at $81 sf, up from $75 in 2000, or 8% growth:

http://www.har.com/neighborhoods/showdetai...m?sid=3S972200&

The Woodlands Indian Springs, at $87, up from $75 in 2000, or 16% growth:

http://www.har.com/neighborhoods/showdetai...m?sid=3S971500&

Average prices: $74, $78, $81, $87

[mrfootball]

So, you're comparing a select group of 25 and 30 year-old neighborhoods in Klein with The Woodlands which is still building out? Highly subjective as anyone could put together a list of select neighborhoods to prove whatever point they're trying to make.

but it seems more like a last outpost surrounded by a wasteland of decline

A bit of a stretch, and I'm sure those who live in that area would disagree. You may wish to tell that to all of the 'paupers and miscreants' in Gleannloch Farms, Augusta Pines, The Reserve, Champion Forest, Champions, Lakes of Sterling Gate, Theisswood Estates, Huntwick, Champions Park, Champions Park North, Highland Timbers, Memorial Northwest, Wimbledon Champions, Woods of Wimbledon, The Falls at Champion Forest, Windrose, Glenn Haven Estates, Brentwood Lakes, Champion Oaks, Estates at Windrush, Spring Creek Oaks, Cypresswood Forest, Wimbledon Estates, Memorial Creek, Champions Centre, Estates at Champions Park, Hamlet at Champions, Marble Gate, Barrington Woods, Vintage Park and all of the little Champions enclaves and gated communities in the area.

'Spring' -- I'd be curious to know from where it was you moved from, as your enthusiasm for the Woodlands is boundless...glad you're enjoying your new community and taking the time to troll over and inform everyone else how 'bad' theirs is. I might add, you do come off as a bit of a choad.

[pineda]

Klein Oak, once the pride of Northampton, now fed by new subdivisions around it starting in the $110's, not to mention the Grand Parkway.

Klein Oak welcomes all students, and your statement about homes in the $110's comes off as a bit snobbish, IMHO. As for the Grand Parkway, NO decision has been made as to the location OR as to the funding for it. One of the alternative routes being pursued just as equally as any of the TEN different proposals in the Spring area is actually located in The Woodlands. The funding has not been secured either and there are no immediate partners lined up to take this over after the Harris County Toll Road backed out. BTW, Klein Oak is the ONLY school in the entire Northwest Harris County or Southwest Montgomery County (read: The Woodlands) area for that matter, that has the IB diploma program. That alone is quite a significant achievement and one that has influenced even more people to move into Northampton.

[SpringTX]

So, you're comparing a select group of 25 and 30 year-old neighborhoods in Klein with The Woodlands which is still building out? Highly subjective as anyone could put together a list of select neighborhoods to prove whatever point they're trying to make.

Those 4 villages in The Woodlands which I selected were the 4 oldest ones. The first 2 started in the late 1970's, which makes them almost 30 years old as well. I think they're the roughly the same age as the Klein neighborhoods.

As for selecting particular neighborhoods, we could dig deeper and get averages for The Woodlands and the Klein HS zone as a whole, if needed. Or I could pick 4 more randomly. I just chose the ones that seemed relatively comparable in terms of age and size.

Of those 4 villages in The Woodlands that I listed, I would consider at least 3 of them to be already built-out or near built-out, if I'm not mistaken. Panther Creek, Cochran's Crossing, and Indian Springs are almost all built-out, from what I can tell. Grogan's Mill has been getting some in-fill, but I'm not sure if that's done with yet. By the way, I just read last week that The Woodlands is expected to be fully built out in 2014, or just 8 years from now. And apparently most of that will be in the new communities in East Shore/Town Center and Creekside.

And, if I'm not mistaken, there are still a few new subdivisions being built in Klein. There's one upscale one in the Klein Collins zone being built. I believe I read an earlier post where you mentioned one in the Klein HS zone being built, or just recently finished building.

The Champions area is a great area. I'm personally very fond of it. I've been very saddened to see the problems in NW Harris County real estate. I moved from the Ponderosa Forest subdivision (in Spring ISD), which is just a couple miles to the east of the Klein ISD zone. When I lived in Ponderosa Forest, I spent more time in the Champions/Klein areas than I did anywhere else. Many of the people I knew lived in the Champions/Klein area. I strongly considered moving into the Klein area. In fact, that was my first choice! But I ultimately decided to head north because my wife persuaded me to consider the long-term demographic projections and real estate trends. She wanted to make the best long-term investment, and she was right.

A few years ago, Compaq was going strong, and a high tech hub around its campus was starting to emerge. Things were looking up for NW Houston. But all that has changed.

Not too long ago, Klein Forest was an elite school. And all the Klein high schools were ranked "Exemplary", which was an amazing feat. Billboards over the place in Klein said "great schools". Now things have changed.

Not too long ago, the Willowbrook Mall was a rival to The Woodlands Mall. Now that has changed, too.

You can slam me all you want with insults, but you can't change the fact that the NW Harris County communities have seen slower growth in home values. I'm not happy about this at all. But I'm realistic about it. And that's my only point. I happen to love The Woodlands not because it's "elite"; in fact, much of The Woodlands is way more diverse and down-to-earth than the Champions area, at least from what I have seen. I love The Woodlands because of its unique and fascinating environmentally-friendly design. I love the Champions area as well. I'm not knocking Klein/Champions in terms of my personal preference at all; I'm simply being realistic about it from a demographic/investment perspective.

P.S. Pineda, Klein Oak is fine - my point was just that Klein ISD has seen problems in the unlikeliest of places, and it has had to struggle on all fronts.

[pineda]

Klein Oak, once the pride of Northampton, now fed by new subdivisions around it starting in the $110's, not to mention the Grand Parkway.

First you said this, which I didn't particularly care for.

P.S. Pineda, Klein Oak is fine - my point was just that Klein ISD has seen problems in the unlikeliest of places, and it has had to struggle on all fronts.

Then you said this, which is sort of ambiguous with the "seen problems in the unlikeliest of places" comment. I don't know what this supposed to mean. I don't see any problems at Klein Oak High School that aren't at any other high schools, no school is perfect, but kids are basically all the same. As for the "struggle on all fronts", I think we have not only very good administrators in place at Klein Oak, but also a very good school board that I have a lot of confidence in to do the right thing. Of course, I probably spend a lot more time than most people do talking with both the administrators and school board, but because I have kids in these schools, I feel like I have a vested interest in the subject. Sorry if I appear to be a little thin-skinned when it comes to people making derogatory comments about Klein Oak or Northampton. I just LOVE living out here as do all the people I come into contact with in Northampton.

[mrfootball]

Spring is quite the little Woodlands nazi, his zeal for his community is boundless, bordering on creepy.

I think you simply must discount his trashing of everything in NW Houston, and chalk it up due to his own poor choice of neighborhoods his first time out as a homebuyer.

Afterall, here you have this 'milquetoast moonie' making blanket statements, announcing the decline of NW Houston...When you look at the facts (har.com) about The Woodlands neighborhoods he's listing -- these places have an average home price of $94,000 (VOPC), $120,000 etc (VOCC), $121,000 (VOIS), $188,000 (VOAB), $240,000 (VOGM). Hardly what one would call 'elite'...especially when compared to many of the neighborhoods in Champions, Klein, Cypress and elsewhere that AVG two or three times the avg home price of these places in The Woodlands.

[SpringTX]

First you said this, which I didn't particularly care for.

Then you said this, which is sort of ambiguous with the "seen problems in the unlikeliest of places" comment. I don't know what this supposed to mean. I don't see any problems at Klein Oak High School that aren't at any other high schools, no school is perfect, but kids are basically all the same. As for the "struggle on all fronts", I think we have not only very good administrators in place at Klein Oak, but also a very good school board that I have a lot of confidence in to do the right thing. Of course, I probably spend a lot more time than most people do talking with both the administrators and school board, but because I have kids in these schools, I feel like I have a vested interest in the subject. Sorry if I appear to be a little thin-skinned when it comes to people making derogatory comments about Klein Oak or Northampton. I just LOVE living out here as do all the people I come into contact with in Northampton.

First, my apologies if my comments about the Klein Oak area and $110K subdivisions came off the wrong way. Don't get me wrong; I'm not throwing value judgments around. Because a family lives in a $110K home doesn't make them "good people" or "bad people". Or any "better" or "worse" than a family who lives in a $210K home or a $310K home. In fact, many would argue that people near the lower end of the spectrum are more down-to-earth, more community-oriented (less career-driven), less concerned about status symbols, etc. (Didn't Jesus Christ say to the rich man that, to get into heaven, he should throw away all his possessions and follow him?) I've lived in "blue collar" neighborhoods like this off and on at many times during my life. I live in The Woodlands right now and many neighborhoods in the older section where I live are homes around $110K. My kids play with kids that live in these areas. And these are great families. And I have friends in The Woodlands from these areas. What's my point? All this doesn't necessarily make for a great real estate investment. As we all know, when a neighborhood is near the lower end of the spectrum, and doesn't always have residents that are as educated, and isn't as concerned with things like politics and planning issues...these tend to get tossed around by bad politicians and greedy developers and so on. From a real estate investment perspective, I think we'd all want to live in a more upscale neighborhood like Northampton where the residents are going to fight the Grand Parkway, for example. While Bridgestone, for example, probably put up half the per-capita effort in that fight that Northampton did (that's just a wild guess, by the way, and correct me if I'm wrong).

As for the Grand Parkway, I have said very strongly on this forum that I think it's a big to-do about nothing. I think it might actually HELP property values. But someone else recently on this forum said that properties values in one particular area have dropped in half since the Grand Parkway was announced. While I think that's sad and terrible (if true), it doesn't surprise me, knowing the panic that people can generate for themselves over nothing. As long as the Grand Parkway remains a "dark cloud" in the MINDS of the residents of Northampton, it could have a "chilling effect" on property values. I'm hoping the damned issue resolves itself soon and folks can get back to business.

For the record, Klein Oak is a great school, one of the better ones. And that section of Klein ISD will probably fare the best (because it's the farthest north, and everything is pushing northward). As a real estate investment, it's moderately safe to assume it will bring about some growth, even if it's small growth, over the next decade. The area is booming right now. My only real gripe is that there is a fair amount of bad development and overdevelopment happening in that area, which won't be easy to reverse down the line. If that area had zoning, it would be one the best in the Houston area. Even as it is now, it's a very fine area.

And I've said before, Northampton is one of the nicest subdivisions in NW Houston, especially for the value. The homes are amazing. The lot sizes are incredible. The preservation of the trees has been awesome. The proximity to the golf course is great. And the people in the neighborhood are great. They have a very active community. Their swim team is great. I can't say enough good things I've seen in Northampton. It's one of the communities that made our "short list" last year when we decided to move. I just recommended it to someone else on this forum earlier today.

[pineda]

"You like me, you really, really like me!"

[cfresident]

Sorry i have to jump into this forum. Regarding CF or MNW... i live in CF and am very happy here. i came here via Denver, so when i initially saw Louetta Road and FM1960 i too thought it was a dump. There was no way i was going to live off Louetta or 1960, but the commute to the Woodlands (which i loved) was not feasible and i just came to terms with it all. I have to admit, for people moving here from other cities (where zoning and building codes are standard), the Woodlands is more representative of what they are use to seeing...as is Katy or Sugarland or any of the newer, planned areas. And, to be honest, they are probably more 'consistent'. One thing you have to be aware of in Houston (which was new to me) is that a school district doesn't necessarily mean anything. You really need to be aware of the specific schools you are zoned to. I have plenty of friends in MNW and i really don't know anyone that is not happy. It is a tight knit community and i think they have done a better job at maintaining their neighborhood than CF. They have updated their entrances, added sidewalks, purchased their swim club - all positive stuff.

Regarding the future of this area, i can only assume that those responsible for the Vintage Park development have done their homework. I too am skeptical of the area. However, companies don't just buy up land and develop it with upscale lifestyle centers without doing plenty of demographic studies to support their investment. (at least i hope that's what they do!!). Additionally, i must be one of the few skeptics because you can't buy a new home that is zoned to my schools without dropping $500K at a minimum. With that said, the area must be more stable than what it would appear. It is not the 'burbs' though. I have lived in other cities and compare this area to more of an urban area with lots of diversity, traffic, close ammenities, etc... If you're looking for a traditional suburban setting comparable to other suburban areas you might prefer the Woodlands, Sugarland or Katy.

[SpringTX]

I have to admit, for people moving here from other cities (where zoning and building codes are standard), the Woodlands is more representative of what they are use to seeing...as is Katy or Sugarland or any of the newer, planned areas. And, to be honest, they are probably more 'consistent'. One thing you have to be aware of in Houston (which was new to me) is that a school district doesn't necessarily mean anything. You really need to be aware of the specific schools you are zoned to.

Additionally, i must be one of the few skeptics because you can't buy a new home that is zoned to my schools without dropping $500K at a minimum. With that said, the area must be more stable than what it would appear. It is not the 'burbs' though. I have lived in other cities and compare this area to more of an urban area with lots of diversity, traffic, close ammenities, etc... If you're looking for a traditional suburban setting comparable to other suburban areas you might prefer the Woodlands, Sugarland or Katy.

Well said. A lot folks from outside lump all the Houston "burbs" in together, but a closer glance reveals the things you say. It's a lot more complex than what might first appear, and each area has its own advantages and disadvantages. One of the great things, in my opinion, about the Champions area is the slightly more "urban" character, as you say. In fact, in my old neighborhood Ponderosa Forest, which is right down 1960 from Champions, they're starting to see more unconventional households move in. A generation ago, it was all "white bread" two-parent families with "rugrats". Now you're seeing bi-racial couples, gay and lesbian couples, couples with adopted Asian kids, etc. And this is what most outsiders would assume to be in "the burbs"!

[mrfootball]

I grew up in Ponderosa when it was all "white bread". I graduated from Westfield when it was all "white bread"...now its down to just 18% White. 15 years. Amazing.

Ponderosa Forest was one of the original FM 1960 neighborhoods (along with Champions and Greenwood Forest). Designed by Kickerillo, the neighborhood still looks nice, but its character has definitely changed as a result of Spring ISD's management (or mismanagement) of the exploding low-income housing population on the South side of FM1960. I think the property values there are the same as when we bought back in 1984 and sold in 1990, which has enabled a lot of non-traditional families to share a piece of the American Dream and live in a nice neighborhood. Not a bad thing, depending on what side your looking at it from.

I do think WHS will improve somewhat with the opening of the new HS (Dekaney), which will more or less re-establish Westfield's original zones...siphoning off a large chunk of those aforementioned apartment dwellars...however, they're about 10 years too late.

Still, I think the surrounding school districts have taken note of Spring ISD's problems and is trying to avoid them by constructing new schools and protecting neigbhorhood values (ie. their tax base).

[VicMan]

Is Spring High School suffering too? Or is Westfield the only school suffering?

[mrfootball]

Is Spring High School suffering too? Or is Westfield the only school suffering?

Well, after looking at the new attendance zones...

It looks like Spring HS (which was headed the way of WHS) will benefit from losing the highly concentrated apartment cluster at Cypress Station along with the other major concentration across the freeway (behind the BMW dealership) to DeKaney. Perhaps they can reverse the flight, their demographics should improve right away.

Westfield should improve significantly with many of its most problematic areas being re-zoned to the brand-new DeKaney HS. Westfield loses (DeKaney gains) almost all of the apartment complexes off of Ella Blvd, Cypress Station, and along the I-45 and Greenspoint corridors. Other than that, there aren't many apartment complexes on the North side of FM 1960, but Westfield retains some of the low income neighborhoods in/around Rushwood...but at least they're homeowners. Olde Oaks, Northgate, Ponderosa and the others North of FM 1960 are still nice neighborhoods. Maybe WHS can make a comeback? It used to be considered the 'richer' part of the district. Who knows? I heard there was another HS on the drawing board.

Dekaney is shaping up to be a hellhole from the get go...which is fitting, because he helped get SISD into this mess.

Here's the new attendance zone map for SISD:

http://www.springisd.org/docs2/attendance/...high2006web.pdf

Here's the current attendance zone map for SISD:

http://www.springisd.org/docs2/attendance/...high2005web.pdf

By the looks of things...had they done this 10 or 15 years ago, there wouldn't be any problems with Westfield or Spring.

This whole Spring ISD discussion needs its own thread.

[VicMan]

Dekaney is shaping up to be a hellhole from the get go...which is fitting, because he helped get SISD into this mess.

DeKaney's bio: http://classroom.springisd.org/webs/dekane...ndy_dekaney.htm

What did DeKaney do? Did he block bond programs? Is he still alive?

[mrfootball]

He opted to build-up Westfield into a Super HS (along with a 9th grade campus) rather than build another High School. They got one hell of an athletics program out of it, but not much else.

Granted, Spring ISD isn't a bad school district when compared with others around in Houston, most of the gripes about it come from former/longtime residents and teachers who remember when it was one of the best in the State. It was sad to see it change so suddenly.

[SpringTX]

Maybe WHS can make a comeback? It used to be considered the 'richer' part of the district. Who knows? I heard there was another HS on the drawing board.

At a SISD community meeting last year, they said that that new high school was breaking ground in 2009 or something like that. They have some land near Wells Middle School (Olde Oaks) that they already have slated for it. And it will apparently be fed from a zone cutting north-south through that westernmost portion of the district. Which is unfortunate, because I think it would be wonderful to see its zone cut right along 1960 all the way to I-45, drawing from Olde Oaks, Ponderosa, Westador, etc. But the folks in the district are very "race sensitive" so they won't do any such obvious thing. In fact, several years ago, the district tried to bus Ponderosa kids to Claughton Middle School to "maintain diversity", and the residents raised such a ruckus that they had to back down.

The other thing affecting the high situation in Spring is the new Wunsche Academy magnet high school that is about to open next year (not to be confused with the Wunsche special education center). This will take students from Spring HS, Westfield, and DeKaney.

I'm also told that the Katrina evacuees have really "stirred the kettle" at Westfield High School this year in terms of disciplinary challenges. In fact, the concentration of Katrina evacuees at Westfield is apparently very high - I've seen at least 2 articles in the Chronicle noting Westfield in this respect.

I think you hit the nail on the head that all the actions taken by Spring ISD are 10 years too late. I've been wondering for years whether Spring ISD will ever make a comeback. As best as I can tell, from discussing with folks on this forum and from researching in other places, is that it will make a comeback in maybe 10 or 15 years at the earliest. It's anyone's guess, though.

This whole Spring ISD discussion needs its own thread.

Yes.

[VicMan]

Here ya go - A new Spring ISD thread is here

EDIT: This stupid software is inserting the registered mark in the link, rendering it unusable... I tried "disable emoticons" and that didnt' work.. Oh well, it's in the Northwest sub-forum.

[mrfootball]

I'll swing this thread back to the original topic....I think we've made it clear to stay clear of Spring ISD...you're good in the areas you're looking, Champion Forest or Memorial Northwest...both great neighborhoods with great schools.

[SpringTX]

I'll swing this thread back to the original topic....I think we've made it clear to stay clear of Spring ISD...you're good in the areas you're looking, Champion Forest or Memorial Northwest...both great neighborhoods with great schools.

Agreed with regards to Spring ISD. With regards to Klein ISD, I think it's safe to say that those 2 particular neighborhoods are very solid, and will be for at least for the near future, and haven't ever had any notable problems, fortunately. But "let the buyer beware" and do your homework on the larger area as a whole and its potential risks, even if those risks are relatively small. Especially if you're looking for a long-term investment and you're hoping the best rate of return. Good luck.

[PureAuteur]

Back to the original question:

Champion Forest vs. Memorial Northwest

I have friends in both and in Champions Park.

Champions Park is an adorable little subdivision with well-built custom homes that has lots of activities for families and a local pool and swim team. Having said that, it's been going downhill in past years, cars being ripped out in driveways, a lot of local vandalism. The folks living there attribute it to three things: a little too close to Cutten and F.M. 1960, a 24-hour Wal-Mart and lots of nearby apartment buildings.

It's quiet, beautiful homes, good schools and close enough, but not too close to Willowbrook Mall area.

Pineda- I live in this area at the moment, and the Willowbrook Mall area is not bad at all. Some sides of the area, like around the Fiesta store have a few low income apartments, but they are not a problem in the area. The apartments in the Willowbrook/1960/Champions area are safe and most of them are fairly expensive to rent. The only thing that really tarnishes the 1960 area is that there are two Wal-Marts within 5 miles of each other on a busy corridor. Once they build the Kuykendahl overpass/underpass it should help the traffic on 1960. Going back to Willowbrook though, I've seen quite a bit of new development around the mall, including a luxury apartment complex, a really modern looking McDonalds, PF Chang's, Taco Milagro, new Target center, Freebirds, engagement ring store, etc. You wouldn't see this much development in an area that is going downhill.

Buchanon- you said that the 1960/Champions area needed a town center. It has always had one, which is the Willowbrook Mall area and the adjacent commercial area across 249 on either side of Gessner. It may not be as urban, dense, walkable, and stylish/futuristic as the Woodlands downtown, but it is definitely the center of things in that area. The Vintage development around Cutten and Louetta will just be a really nice neighborhood strip center, kind of like Highland Village at Westheimer inside the Loop 610, but it won't become the center of activity.

[mrfootball]

The Vintage development around Cutten and Louetta will just be a really nice neighborhood strip center, kind of like Highland Village at Westheimer inside the Loop 610, but it won't become the center of activity.

That's a pretty big chunk of land they've got there, The Vintage Park shopping area is but a fraction of the whole. They've got big plans for mixed use development which includes corporate campuses, pharmaceutical, etc. Recall, that there is already a large amount of class A office space located just across 249 in the HP campus, which includes buildings being leased out to Exxon and other Energy companies.

I was at Anadarko when we were selecting a new site to build the new office tower...had this development been available at that time, it would've received a much harder look (then CEO of Anadarko, Robert Allison, lives in nearby Champions) as the site selection took into account where most of the employees lived, which was in the FM 1960, Champions, Klein and Spring areas.

All it takes is one marquee tenant to ignite the boom, which is what happened with The Woodlands Town Center project and Anadarko.

Kickerillo & Co paid a great deal of money for this coveted parcel, I've no doubt they've got big plans for it.

[ENGcons]

HP is getting ready to pull the triggger on a deal on another piece of property out there and start developing. That stretch along 249 is about to explode.

[PureAuteur]

Hopefully we don't see all the trees along the freeway go down. That's what makes the area so great to begin with.

[mrfootball]

HP is getting ready to pull the triggger on a deal on another piece of property out there and start developing. That stretch along 249 is about to explode.

What are you hearing? Is HP Building new facilities or selling off property? I've heard they are leasing out more and more of their existing campus (former Compaq) to Exxon and some other companies.

[BS&T]

Thanks all for the input. I am happy to hear positive comments as I do like the look and feel of the neighborhood.

Interesting comments on Louetta - in fact this was something else making me hesitate. I didn't know it when it had trees and as a newcomer driving along there it is so featureless and dull it makes you suspect that behind it might be ghetto...

Glad to hear it isn't!

Did you ever find a house? We live off Louetta in Spring Creek Oaks. Been here 7 years and in the area for 25 years. Work in the Galleria but love this area for raising a family.

[CDeb]

Dekaney is shaping up to be a hellhole from the get go

Gosh, I'm sure the teachers are just lining up for those jobs!

[ChampionsAdam]

The Champions area is wonderful! I moved here from Phoenix when our real estate market skyrocketed. I owned several investment properties out there and cashed out and came to Houston. But, before I did I flew out and checked out the area, talked with homeowners in several subdivisions and talked to real estate professionals before deciding to buy here...basically I did my research on the different areas. I looked at The Woodlands as well...very interesting area but a little creepy for me and a little over priced I thought as well. One realtor told me it was very "white trash" I would have to agree to some extent... I was not impressed at all, it was a bit overated. Granted, there are some very lavish homes there...there are lavish homes in the "loop" as well... River Oaks for one or Tanglewood.... I wouldn't live in either of those subdivisions either (price tags aside) I don't think the areas are safe and dreaded driving through the areas at night.

The major concern appear to be the schools in the FM1960 area as well as traffic. I will add that I do not have children...However the schools were of concern to me and I asked questions. I have a neighbor across the street who both she and her husband are teachers in the Klein School District and chose to buy in Greenwood Forest (they had lived in the Heights and moved when they began to raise a family). I have also been told that there are other teachers as well as administrators that live in the Klein Forest district of the subdivision, particularly in Greenwood Forest. I have also talked to parents that have children enrolled in Klein Forest, they have told me that their children are receiving a great education. These are not "low end" parents, they are upper middle class to well off. I am aware that there have been issues with the residents (particulary those in Greenwood Forest) and the Klein School District related to the "changes" in the school. Remember, when Greenwood Forest was built in the 1970's it was upscale and predominantly white. As with most older areas things begin to change with time, the economic downturn of the 1980's and the high foreclosure rate I think helped change the areas demographics dramatically as well as the recent construction south of the subdivision of less expensive housing. I witnessed this in Phoenix as well to many once "nice" areas.

I am not seeing a decline in values in Greenwood Forest or the other Champions/1960 subdivisions, to the contrary, they appear to be on the upswing (even to my own surprise) there are currently 2 homes under contract in the subdivision one was priced at $340,000 and the other at $389,000, both properties were on the market less than 3 months. There was another at $299,000 and was on the market not more than a few weeks (as of 7/14/06 MLS). My home which is in the "estate section" of Greenwood Forest on Theall Rd, with updating is probably worth about $220,000 (purchased for $160,000 less than one year ago) the home is 3,000 square feet with a pool, built by Kickerillo. I have kept track of the market in here and with the exception of a few ignorant homeowners and real estate agents that continue to dump the homes at cheap prices, most appear to be increasing. The updated homes are moving the fastest with the highest increase. Those that have not been touched usually sit for many, many months. I know of one particular real estate agent and her family that own over 10 homes in Greenwood Forest as investments (I have been told she is quite shrewd and knows her business), if Greenwood Forest (or the surrounding area) was in any way in decline I doubt highly that a professional in the real estate business would be investing that heavily in one particular subdivision. The Champions area is simply very unique, there is still a great deal of wealth in the area and I don't see it turning into another Inwood Forest or comparable area.

I had considered buying in Huntwick, Champion Forest and Memorial Northwest, however, schools aside, the subdivisions did not appear much different from Greenwood Forest, nor where they any more caucasian, Champion Forest certainly had some magnificent mansions, and Huntwick has lovely gas lamps in each front yard (half the subdivision is Klein Forest the other half is CyFair) and Memorial Northwest... I did not see one house in there that I would buy..junk, junk, junk and that goes for even the older Goette homes. I never considered Fountainhead to the east of Greenwood Forest, it is almost hidden and obscure and did not even know it existed until I moved here. The homes are smaller and do not appear as well kept as the other custom home subdivisions in the area, but they can be had for a song.

It is my opinion (as someone who moved from another city and state) that many of those who watched the area grow and diversify have not always liked the change. I never saw it when it was Jackrabbit Rd and heavily forested or when the area was lilly white. These same changes occurred in Phoenix and Los Angeles and did not effect peoples decisions to buy, in fact 3 of the most affluent neighborhoods in Phoenix have high schools equivellant to Klein Forest (Biltmore..Camelback High, North Central...Central High, Phoenix Country Club...North High) or stop the escallating real estate market. I think the FM1960 corridor will see positive change in the future, with redevelopment of the shopping centers and renovations of the aging apartment complexes as well. It is certainly much safer than the areas in the loop such as Montrose or the Heights, which are just plain scary and have price tags that don't justify the condition of the area. I would be terrified to go outside of my home at night if I lived in some of the neighborhoods in the loop. It is certainly more convenient for those who may work down there, but again, the price for what you are getting is not easy to justify and if I did have a family to raise it would be completely out of the question... talk about rotten schools.

I don't have a crystal ball, but I do think that values in Houston as well as other cities in Texas will continue to rise, the west coast and east coast are almost untouchable anymore and myself as someone who invested and rented the properties out would not be able to find a tenant to cover the mortgage or the maintenance expenses, it would be a negative cash flow position and not enough equity growth to make it worth while.... again, in my opinion. Here, I could cover my expenses, have positive cash flow (or at least enough not to be out of pocket too much) and at least see a stable return on the investment. Keep an eye on the license plates on 1960, California, Arizona, Nevada, New Jersey. We are cashing out and coming to Texas!

[mrfootball]

Without a doubt, there's a ton of wealth in the 1960 area, which is quite visible, and also from a lot of people you wouldn't even realize it. For example, yesterday I spoke to good friend of ours whose parents still live in the same house in Huntwick that she grew up in. She told us her dad (who owns a Steel company) just bought a new Jet for his company. You wouldn't realize they were so loaded living in their $250K house, which of course, is a great house, they certainly could afford a multi-millon dollar house elswhere, but they like where they live, and enjoy having ranches, lakehouses in the hill country and a yacht in the BVI.

Another guy is an nationally renowned trial lawyer, worth a couple of hundred million dollars. Every year, he throws what is considered THE PARTY of the year (in the legal community) at his home in Champions featuring entertainers like Bill Cosby, Reba McIntire, etc. They live on a very nice spread ($4M), but certainly modest considering how unbelievably wealthy this man is. On Sundays he teaches one of the most popular Sunday school classes at Champion Forest Baptist Church.

Many area residents who brought their families out here in the 70's and 80's have risen to run some of the country's largest corporations, like Anadarko Petroleum, Dynegy, etc. Chuck Watson lives just outside Longwood in Wincrest Falls. For years he lived just down the street in Champions.

Other prominent self-made businessmen like Jim "Mattress Mac" McInvgvale live over in Northgate Forest where he and his family has lived for nearly twenty years.

Oddly, these people who made their millions long ago, could live anywhere in Houston. Anywhere in the world for that matter. They choose to live here.

These are just a few examples out of hundreds. Its just a characteristic of the area that people don't really go out of their way to be pretentious or be as outwardly ostentacious as they do in other parts of town. It has always been more friendly and laid back out here, all the while quietly having some of the highest average household incomes in the Houston area.

[CDeb]

Other prominent self-made businessmen like Jim "Mattress Mac" McInvgvale live over in Northgate Forest where he and his family has lived for nearly twenty years.

Hakeem Olajuwon used to own the house next to his. This was back when he was just "Akeem." There were brass "AO" letters on the gates.