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A Lot To Chew On: The Merc Is Eating Up Funds


MidtownCoog

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Two that I can think of off hand.

I know there are other significant structures that stand empty, I just never see them.

211 North Ervay

(Blue building lower left corner of pic)

18 Stories (1958)

Renovation ideas have floated around for years, and the Mayor wanted to demolish it for a park.

But, nothing concrete has surfaced in the past few years.

211_n_ervay.jpg

1600 Pacific

Saw better days once as the famous LTV Tower

32 Stories, 454 Feet (1964)

Again, rumours of residential reuse have abounded the past 5 years.

But nothing yet.

1600_pacific.jpg

I can think of two more sizable empty buildings, I just can't think of the streets they're on. One near Main St. I just noticed recently, a white 1950ish structure probably 15 stories or more. I''m going to walk by it today on my way home.

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I think biggest intent behind the municipally expensive Merc deal is to create a solid residential base, encouraging additional rennovation of nearby buildings obsolete as office space, and deliver the concentrated local population to provide a baseline support for retail ventures to return to the vacant store fronts. Comparing the similarly priced Houston Pavillions and Merchantile redevelopment the anecdotal difference is the Pavillions will delivers downtown retail/entertainment component to attract residential development while the Merc delivers the residential component to attract the retail/entertainment. My personal POV, developing the residential inventory first is the best way to solve the anemic downtown atmosphere.

It's accurate that the geographic location of the Merchantile complex will have as much impact to invigorate as will the number of residents it will bring.

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I think biggest intent behind the municipally expensive Merc deal is to create a solid residential base, encouraging additional rennovation of nearby buildings obsolete as office space, and deliver the concentrated local population to provide a baseline support for retail ventures to return to the vacant store fronts. Comparing the similarly priced Houston Pavillions and Merchantile redevelopment the anecdotal difference is the Pavillions will delivers downtown retail/entertainment component to attract residential development while the Merc delivers the residential component to attract the retail/entertainment. My personal POV, developing the residential inventory first is the best way to solve the anemic downtown atmosphere.

It's accurate that the geographic location of the Merchantile complex will have as much impact to invigorate as will the number of residents it will bring.

The classic chicken/egg conundrum. Of course, Houston is simultaneously adding a substantial residential component (One Park Place), thus removing the conundrum. If you don't know whether residential begets retail or vice versa, just build both simultaneously and it doesn't matter. ;-)

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The classic chicken/egg conundrum. Of course, Houston is simultaneously adding a substantial residential component (One Park Place), thus removing the conundrum. If you don't know whether residential begets retail or vice versa, just build both simultaneously and it doesn't matter. ;-)

Rest assured that Dallas is aggressively pursuing retail for the core.

The recent addition if Jos. A. Banks is an excellent example.

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I think biggest intent behind the municipally expensive Merc deal is to create a solid residential base, encouraging additional rennovation of nearby buildings obsolete as office space, and deliver the concentrated local population to provide a baseline support for retail ventures to return to the vacant store fronts. Comparing the similarly priced Houston Pavillions and Merchantile redevelopment the anecdotal difference is the Pavillions will delivers downtown retail/entertainment component to attract residential development while the Merc delivers the residential component to attract the retail/entertainment. My personal POV, developing the residential inventory first is the best way to solve the anemic downtown atmosphere.

It's accurate that the geographic location of the Merchantile complex will have as much impact to invigorate as will the number of residents it will bring.

You act is if there isn't residential already in downtown Houston. Here's a list of the buildings in which you can currently live;

2016 Main

Houston House Apartments

The Beaconsfield

Four Seasons Condos

Humble Tower Apartments

The Kirby Lofts

Capitol Lofts

St Germaine Lofts

Keystone Lofts

Foley Building

Post Rice Lofts

Hermann Lofts

Bayou Lofts

Byrd Lofts

Franklin Lofts

Club Quarters Apartments

These are literally just one to two blocks outside of downtown proper;

Sabine Street Lofts

Lofts at the Ballpark

The Rise

Post Midtown Square

The Stanford

These are currently being built/converted

One Park Place

The Edge

Post Midtown expansion

Camden Apartments

Nabisco conversion

In the pipeline/rumored

Texaco conversion to condos

conversion of old Days Inn to residential

new development near park of 17 story condo tower

major development near market square

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Heh.

I'd rather go to that place further up on Travis, about a block south of Burger King . Can't even remember its name but I pass by five or six times a week.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm sure Jos is just swell for a lot of other people, but I'm with 'Coog. I find myself mostly feeling disappointed with the selection.

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These are currently being built/converted

One Park Place

The Edge

Post Midtown expansion

Camden Apartments

Nabisco conversion

In the pipeline/rumored

Texaco conversion to condos

conversion of old Days Inn to residential

new development near park of 17 story condo tower

major development near market square

What are

Nabisco conversion

New development of 17 story condo tower, and

Major development near Market Square?

I haven't heard of any of these.

I think the conversion of the old Holiday Inn/Days Inn/Heaven on Earth Inn is dead.

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The Nabisco conversion is that dump near MMP. They move a brick or window about every other month.

It's right next to Williams Brother's Construction junk yard.

I can't belive we allow them to use a major entrance into downtown as a junk yard.

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Does anyone have some solid numbers for the downtown residential population of both cities that is recent? The numbers that i found from houstondowntown.com are 3,800(says it's a current figure, but no date given), and 3,100 from downtowndallas.org(but i think that's a 2004 number). downtowndallas.org also projects over 10,000 residents downtown by 2010. I'm not sure what houston's projections are.

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Does anyone have some solid numbers for the downtown residential population of both cities that is recent? The numbers that i found from houstondowntown.com are 3,800(says it's a current figure, but no date given), and 3,100 from downtowndallas.org(but i think that's a 2004 number). downtowndallas.org also projects over 10,000 residents downtown by 2010. I'm not sure what houston's projections are.

I can't find exact numbers, but this article from the Dallas Morning News in October 2006 states " By next year, the number of apartments and condominiums in the central business district will top 4,400 units. That's up from fewer than 500 in 1999.... More than 3,000 people already live in the 1.3 square miles bounded by the downtown freeway loop, according to DowntownDallas, the economic development group.... Redevelopment of the Union Tower Complex, the Republic Bank Building, Gulf States Insurance Building and the Mercantile National Bank Building will add more than 1,000 apartments downtown.... Along with the apartments, several developers are building more than 350 units in condominium projects downtown."

But with the recent expansion of "downtown" beyond the freeway loop, this site says "There are more than 14,000 new, refurbished, and historical lofts, condos, apartments, and places to hang your hat in Downtown today, and an additional 7,000 coming soon!"

But I asssume the "downtown" you refer to is the CBD.

post-1945-1173305109.jpg

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Does anyone have some solid numbers for the downtown residential population of both cities that is recent? The numbers that i found from houstondowntown.com are 3,800(says it's a current figure, but no date given), and 3,100 from downtowndallas.org(but i think that's a 2004 number). downtowndallas.org also projects over 10,000 residents downtown by 2010. I'm not sure what houston's projections are.

Houston projects 10,000 also. 10,000 is considered a magic number of residents to support the associated retail, so the downtown sunshine pumpers in each city pull a number and date out of their a** and throw it out there repeatedly. Before long, it becomes fact. No one really believes the "projections"....except, of course, posters on city forums, like this one and dallasmetropolis. As we have seen over and over, the only thing you should believe is dirt turning.

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Red is wrong. I believe there will be 20,000 residents in DT Houston in the near future. 10,000 is a number for the most heinous of head-in-the-cloud BS artists. ;)

No seriously. Those numbers are mere goals. There's nothing concrete about either, especially when you consider that their target date is just three years away. It's certainly not impossible (and given the history of both cities, admirable) but quite a bit needs to take place and soon for that "10,000" number to have serious relevance.

That said, we're at least at a point now where those goals seem to have sparked serious efforts by developers and city planners alike. In 1987, for example, it was all met with a shrug, even by hardcore urbanists.

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But with the recent expansion of "downtown" beyond the freeway loop, this site says "There are more than 14,000 new, refurbished, and historical lofts, condos, apartments, and places to hang your hat in Downtown today, and an additional 7,000 coming soon!"

CBD. Same with Downtown Houston and Midtown.

If you get down to the true meaing of the word projection they are right, but it comes in at a measly #9 in MW:

Projection

9: an estimate of future possibilities based on a current trend

http://209.161.33.50/dictionary/projection

GOD bless the economy!

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You act is if there isn't residential already in downtown Houston.

I wasnt at all trying to act like downtown Houston doesnt have any residential; I know it does. Mostly I was refering to iniatives in Dallas "to solve the anemic downtown atmosphere."

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CBD. Same with Downtown Houston and Midtown.

If you get down to the true meaing of the word projection they are right, but it comes in at a measly #9 in MW:

Projection

9: an estimate of future possibilities based on a current trend

http://209.161.33.50/dictionary/projection

GOD bless the economy!

Screw the projections and the meaning of the word projection. Anyone no what the most recent totals are?

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  • 4 weeks later...

Work is starting on the park at this area or downtown... here's the new proposal: http://www.dallascityhall.com/committee_br...ainStGarden.pdf

Way cleared for downtown Dallas park

Landmark Commission first votes to deny, then OKs demolition permits

11:30 PM CDT on Monday, April 2, 2007

By DAVE LEVINTHAL / The Dallas Morning News

dlevinthal@dallasnews.com

It took four votes, a few hours and plenty of argument and accusations along the way.

But by Monday evening, Dallas' Landmark Commission approved permits to demolish several arguably historic buildings standing in the way of Main Street Garden, a park the size of a city block in the center of downtown.

The commission also approved a "certificate of appropriateness" for Main Street Garden, which allows the park to be built within an established historic district – in this case, the Harwood Historic District.

City officials say they expect to begin construction this year on the skyscraper-ringed park, bounded by Main, Commerce, Harwood and St. Paul streets.

...

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Work is starting on the park at this area or downtown... here's the new proposal: http://www.dallascityhall.com/committee_br...ainStGarden.pdf

Way cleared for downtown Dallas park

Landmark Commission first votes to deny, then OKs demolition permits

11:30 PM CDT on Monday, April 2, 2007

By DAVE LEVINTHAL / The Dallas Morning News

dlevinthal@dallasnews.com

It took four votes, a few hours and plenty of argument and accusations along the way.

...

Dang is there anything that Houston can do without Dallas doing it also? First it was Houston House of Blues opening up and then Dallas has one opening up shortly after. Now Houston gets a park, now Dallas gets a park. Not to rant, but its taking away from the uniqueness of these two cities.

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Dang is there anything that Houston can do without Dallas doing it also? First it was Houston House of Blues opening up and then Dallas has one opening up shortly after. Now Houston gets a park, now Dallas gets a park. Not to rant, but its taking away from the uniqueness of these two cities.

Is the Houston House of Blues open yet? If not then We are getting one first.Yes Houston has a new park project downtown, and Dallas is starting a park project that's Part of a larger Park Masterplan for the entire CBDthat has been planned for years.it just so happen to be starting around the same time.So we are not trying to do everything Houston is doing it's just that the projects that are just now being presented and announced in and around Houston are somewhat similar to the projects that's been Planned and

announced in Dallas awhile back. :mellow:

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Dang is there anything that Houston can do without Dallas doing it also? First it was Houston House of Blues opening up and then Dallas has one opening up shortly after. Now Houston gets a park, now Dallas gets a park. Not to rant, but its taking away from the uniqueness of these two cities.

The park has been planned since 2004 but was waiting for money from the 2006 bond election. There are three additional parks of similar size planned for downtown. Woodall Rogers Park and Griffin Street Garden (now Belo Garden) start construction in 2007 as well.

2004 Downtown Parks Master Plan

Woodall Rogers Park Plan

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Dang is there anything that Houston can do without Dallas doing it also? First it was Houston House of Blues opening up and then Dallas has one opening up shortly after. Now Houston gets a park, now Dallas gets a park. Not to rant, but its taking away from the uniqueness of these two cities.

That's right, Houston and Dallas are the only cities with the insight to put parks downtown. What city was Houston copying, maybe Chicago, when it decided to put a park downtown? How silly.

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That's right, Houston and Dallas are the only cities with the insight to put parks downtown. What city was Houston copying, maybe Chicago, when it decided to put a park downtown? How silly.

To add to that. The parks proposal does not come off of what Houston is doing. This comes after a study led by Peter Calthorpe that the city of Dallas commisioned a couple years ago. As with any good urban environment there are parks, something downtown Dallas lacks. In the study performed, they set goals for the number of residential units in the city center surrounded by the freeway loops in order to become self-sustaining without tax incentives. In order to gain the residential they needed to have parks to lure more people. There are many other pieces that will intertwine to make downtown a well built environment. This does not have to do with Houston making a park and then Dallas saying "hey we need to be like Houston." Do members of our council and other leaders study how another city went about it. Sure they do, just like a couple Houston council members were up here a few weeks ago looking at the residential projects underway, future ones, or completed in downtown. Some of our council members took a trip to Chicago to look at its parks, and talk with the council members on things that have worked in their downtown. Also, look at the Trinty River Project. This is one that has been in the works since the 60's and in 1998 the public voted to issue bonds for what has become the currrent vision. Houston has its own plan now for the bayou. Is this a result of one wanting to be another? No. It has to do with our leaders today waking up and realizing that waterfront features and recreation are not an asset but more a necessity to continue attracting people into the city limits. Every major city pratically is developing or reinvesting in their park systems.

On the House of Blues thing. It was shortly after (within a month) of House of Blues announcing the Houston location that they announced the Dallas location. With the time that takes into building the business models of developments in general, rest assure they were planning to go into both. HOB Dallas opens this May 12, btw.

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That's right, Houston and Dallas are the only cities with the insight to put parks downtown. What city was Houston copying, maybe Chicago, when it decided to put a park downtown? How silly.

Quit getting so defensive, I was really talking about cities in Texas.

If you want to get that technical, then Dallas Victory is copying off New York times square.

My point was is that it seems that shortly after Houston announces one thing, so does Dallas. Dallas already has one of the hottest developements in the country, Victory. It just seems that Houston can't have one unique thing on its own without Dallas getting it too.

I wasn't flaming, i just want Houston and Dallas to have some exclusives that can't be found in either city.

PS: slfunk, i noticed your comment, but i wanted to tell Mr. defensive here my reasoning for my comment.

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Quit getting so defensive, I was really talking about cities in Texas.

I wasn't getting defensive at all, that comment was too silly to get riled up about. And your explanation is just as silly. Parks and two urban projects are not going to cause Houston and Dallas to suddenly turn into twin cities. There's a whole thread in this section of the forum that discusses how Victory and HP are different than one another. I'm sorry, if I came off denfensive, that truly was not my intention, it's just that the very idea that Houston announces something first and then Dallas copies it sounds like the ramblings of a seven year old.

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I wasn't getting defensive at all, that comment was too silly to get riled up about. And your explanation is just as silly. Parks and two urban projects are not going to cause Houston and Dallas to suddenly turn into twin cities. There's a whole thread in this section of the forum that discusses how Victory and HP are different than one another. I'm sorry, if I came off denfensive, that truly was not my intention, it's just that the very idea that Houston announces something first and then Dallas copies it sounds like the ramblings of a seven year old.

Well call it what you want. I think its even more silly for you to take that comment i made about Houston and Dallas sharing too many similarites out of context. There are a lot of things Houston has done first and then Dallas did. The Galleria is an example. Then again there are things that Dallas has done that Houston shortly followed such as: Mass transit and Urbanization. There's exclusives that Dallas has such as Victory Plaza Screens, which is something that Houston doesn't have and doesn't have any intention of getting. The only real exclusive i think Houston has is the beach and that's really Houston metro, not Houston.

Maybe my earlier post came off a tad confrontational but Point is, i think each city should have certain things that can't be found in the next city, especially since they represent the same state. That's my opinion. If that sounds like ramblings of a seven year old then that's too damn bad.

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Well call it what you want. I think its even more silly for you to take that comment i made about Houston and Dallas sharing too many similarites out of context. There are a lot of things Houston has done first and then Dallas did. The Galleria is an example. Then again there are things that Dallas has done that Houston shortly followed such as: Mass transit and Urbanization. There's exclusives that Dallas has such as Victory Plaza Screens, which is something that Houston doesn't have and doesn't have any intention of getting. The only real exclusive i think Houston has is the beach and that's really Houston metro, not Houston.

Maybe my earlier post came off a tad confrontational but Point is, i think each city should have certain things that can't be found in the next city, especially since they represent the same state. That's my opinion. If that sounds like ramblings of a seven year old then that's too damn bad.

Oh don't worry.........Houston and Dallas will never,I repeat never,be the same...........As Midtowncoog or 2112 would say..."Print it".(can't remeber which of u guys said that :blush: )

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