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How Dallas Is Getting One Over On Us


heights_yankee

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It takes a Metroplex to build a Big D.

Don't even say the 'M word" to people from Fort Worth...

Dallas is still king of the $30K/year millionaires. Lived there, saw it, left it.

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Someone is doing a documentary about it. My Dallas friends told me so... B)

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And there are many Houstonites that believe Houston is the crown jewel of Texas. Any many people from Austin who think the same thing too. I think if you don't think you live in the best city in Texas you should move. In the same breath, because you think you're in the best city, it doesn't mean other cities don't do things better than your city. I can think of lots of things that Houston does better than Dallas.

I do notice one thing about forumers, which is a generalization so it isn't worth much. When Dallas (really DFW) complains about Houston, its about the city. Generally impersonal complaints about the weather, traffic, industry etc.. When Houston forumers complain about Dallas, its the people (how every resident is "plastic" etc..) I don't know what that means, or if its just a byproduct of my limited sample set.

Jason

Houston may not be the crowned jewel of anything but it's still the top of the heap in Texas. As Coog said "PRINT IT!"

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And there are many Houstonites that believe Houston is the crown jewel of Texas. Jason

[/quote

There is not a single Houstonite who believes Houston is the Crown Jewel of Texas. In fact, there is no such thing as a Houstonite. You Dallasonians should figure out what to call us before you chastise us.

:lol:

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Why do people bring up attitude? I see just as much in Dallas as I do in Houston. I believe it has everything to do about the person, their background, history, etc. And the 30k millionaire thing in not new to Dallas. I here this all the time from people from Atlanta, NYC, Miami and LA. They live and breath among us on a daily basis.

This is just a cope out that people need to stop making. It is easy.

Both cities are great and offer up many wonderful restaurants, hotels, museums, etc. I rather see a great Texas, with schools that have excellent teachers with excellent training. I rather see a Texas where all are insured. I rather see a Texas that is a leader, not a Texas that is failing our students and our poorest of citizens.

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(Sorry, I borrowed that from someone on here)

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This thread was originally mainly about the bland style of new construction that we're seeing as opposed to Dallas, as an example.

The orange one is the one I mentioned above and the second is another example from the same builder. This style seems to be emerging, and maybe it's full-blown elsewhere already, but it is more pleasing to me than the beige-with-brick, single gable, units that we see everywhere. The side garage on the 2nd one gives the streetscape more beauty too. I think rectangles work better than pointy gables, in general, with beige and for the 3 stories.

mvkpl3.jpg

mvks3k.jpg

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This thread was originally mainly about the bland style of new construction that we're seeing as opposed to Dallas, as an example.

The orange one is the one I mentioned above and the second is another example from the same builder. This style seems to be emerging, and maybe it's full-blown elsewhere already, but it is more pleasing to me than the beige-with-brick, single gable, units that we see everywhere. The side garage on the 2nd one gives the streetscape more beauty too. I think rectangles work better than pointy gables, in general, with beige and for the 3 stories.

mvkpl3.jpg

mvks3k.jpg

They are still tossing up that crap all over Dallas. You are seeing a break from this design in some areas though. I think people that enjoy architecture and have a keen eye for some sort of style are demanding something new and not of the norm.

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Why do people bring up attitude? I see just as much in Dallas as I do in Houston. I believe it has everything to do about the person, their background, history, etc. And the 30k millionaire thing in not new to Dallas. I here this all the time from people from Atlanta, NYC, Miami and LA. They live and breath among us on a daily basis.

This is just a cope out that people need to stop making. It is easy.

Both cities are great and offer up many wonderful restaurants, hotels, museums, etc. I rather see a great Texas, with schools that have excellent teachers with excellent training. I rather see a Texas where all are insured. I rather see a Texas that is a leader, not a Texas that is failing our students and our poorest of citizens.

PRINT IT

(Sorry, I borrowed that from someone on here)

214, nobody is trying to take an easy route in commenting on the general attitude of Dallasites. This is something I new and heard about years before I moved to Texas. A case in point for me would be the times I would travel to Dallas for a show. The people were snotty from the onset, whereas when coming to San Antonio or Houston the people were much more down to earth. In fact my main reason for moving to Houston was how cool the people were.

My point is not to goad you personally but this cliche is a cliche because there is at least some merit to it. In other words it's not just the people on this board making these statements.

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214, nobody is trying to take an easy route in commenting on the general attitude of Dallasites. This is something I new and heard about years before I moved to Texas. A case in point for me would be the times I would travel to Dallas for a show. The people were snotty from the onset, whereas when coming to San Antonio or Houston the people were much more down to earth. In fact my main reason for moving to Houston was how cool the people were.

My point is not to goad you personally but this cliche is a cliche because there is at least some merit to it. In other words it's not just the people on this board making these statements.

I just think as you say, an easy generalization to make. Growing up in Houston I was always asked by others not from Texas if Houstonians had an class. That one always got to me. For some reason certain movies depecited us as less than civilized. I was told that LA was full of self absorbed, snobby people and I never really noticed that. I guess I tend to stray away from such people.

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You know, when you get to reading these Houston vs. Dallas threads you start realizing something: it's like the blind leading the blind.

The day Houston is urban, will be the day I don't spend more time in my car than at my destination. The same goes for damn near every city south of the Mason-Dixon line all the way west to the Mississippi.

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Enough with the Houston vs Dallas debate. I'll lock the thread if it continues. No one is interested in anyone's personal feelings of affection or contempt for one city or the other.

The question at hand is how to persuade Houston developers to offer more imaginative architecture than the townhomes currently being built. Stay on topic. And don't make me go all moderator on your...posts.

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They are still tossing up that crap all over Dallas. You are seeing a break from this design in some areas though. I think people that enjoy architecture and have a keen eye for some sort of style are demanding something new and not of the norm.

I agree that these are different and a welcome change, but when are we going to see the end of townhomes? How many people want to live in a 3 story townhome? If you asked developers around Houston, I think they'd say "All of them."

Eventually, we're going to need to start going up, not out (unless, of course, we want all of texas to become The Land of Urban Sprawl and, therefor, lose a lot of what is special about texas). I know this is happening in Uptown/Galleria, but so much of the land in the heart of Houston is devoted to townhomes or 3 story apartment buildings. The Pavillions is the right idea, but so much valuable real estate is already lost...

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Go Spurs!

:lol:

Nice try.

Seriously, heights-yankee, you may be being a bit harsh going off on townhomes in general. Given that both Houston and Dallas' density hovers in the 3500 per square mile range, a townhome on a 2500 square foot IS dense, relatively speaking. Townhome development can achieve densities of upwards of 15,000 persons per square mile or more.

Additionally, multi-unit, multi-story living is an acquired taste. If Houstonians and Dallasites, long accustomed to single family suburban style lots want to get their feet wet with townhomes first, what's wrong with that? It's an improvement over 15,000 sq. foot lots, at least.

Midrises are becoming fairly popular as well. Highrises are extremely expensive to build, and therefore expensive to purchase. I think a younger, livelier demographic in less expensive townhomes or midrises is preferable to rich old foagies as far as a dense livable environment that is desireable to live in.

The gripe, if there is one, is the horrid design of these townhomes. An occasional brick, gabled rowhouse look from Perry Homes is fine, but I don't want it everywhere. Same with the hideous faux stucco mediter-run-from-one junk that seems to repeat over and over. It has even taken over strip mall design.

I haven't driven through Dallas' townhome areas recently, so I can't speak for them, but my suspicion is that both cities have these eyesores. My architect friend tells me most architects try to draw good looking homes, but their clients insist on this junk. I'm sure it is because homebuyers buy this junk. If the populace insists on junk, what are the builders and architects to do?

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No, no. You're right. Townhomes by their very nature are not bad. I have several friends that live in them and they have their place. It's just everything they're tearing down to put them up and then the utter lack of variety in their architecture that kills me. No matter what the density, I can't see 15000 people in 1 sq mile all wanting their homes to look the same. hell, have a couple drinks and you end up trying to key yourself in to your neighbors house (I actually had some friends this happened to).

Anyway, to get back to my original point, I'd love to just see more variety in Houston! Dallas is doing a great job of diversifying it's architecture (yes, there are ugly stucco townhomes and some great, gorgeous buildings were demolished to build them) to the point that it's innovative new buildings are being featured in design magazines...

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I, too, am tired of seeing the same townhomes being built ad nauseum throughout Houston. The fake stucco, vaguely European (the "Beiges") and the Hardi-Plank (Hardy Plank?) pseudo-clapboards (the "Grays") dominate to such an extent that realtors may just as well refer to them in those terms:

"Do you prefer a Beige or a Gray townhome?"

Yet, I can understand how this situation came about. It's easy for us to sit here and smugly criticize these styles of architecture; but the bottom line is that when making what is (for most) the largest investment of their lives, people suddenly feel less adventuresome. Conformity doesn't seem such a bad thing, when resale value is a consideration - and it's your money.

That this thread was started in the "Houston Mod" section seems fortuitous. I suspect that many of the Mid-Century Modern houses which only now are again being appreciated for their architectural merit may have historically fared worse than more conventional designs on the resale market. Twenty years the Mods weren't called Mods; they were called ugly, and people went through a lot of effort and money to make them appear more traditional ("remuddling"). Unfortunately, this trend continues. How's the market for early 80's Post Modern designs, compared with more conventional houses of that period? (That's a question - I don't know.)

I admire people who have the courage to build and buy and live in exceptional houses. Most people would rather play it safe. And most people is where the market is.

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The conformity of modern housing in general is rediculous. For instance, my neighborhood in Cinco Ranch is well kept, safe and believe it or not is very convenient for most of my families needs. That being said the architecture is safe and extremely bland, like there were 6 plans for the neighborhood to choose from. I hate it.

On the other side, my buddy who lives in the Willowbend area has homes (circa 1955-65?) with wonderful character. There must be 35 to 50 designs just in his neighborhood. I'm pretty green at development but it's as if there were a ton of developers in this area, whereas my nieghborhood I believe only had two.

I guess my question is, why have developers moved into such a shallow view of these new communities. Even the ones that are master planned with all the amenities seem to be cookie cutter crap. I certainly understand that money is the chief reason but c'mon, how much more could it possibly cost to bring more developers with varying desgns?

Being new to the architecture thing, I've been doing some reading on the Brownstone designs mainly found in New York. Imo they are terrific and have great character. With the movement toward higher density living and throwback home buying, why isn't someone attempting to resurect these (Brownstone) designs.

Who knows, maybe I'm the only one who likes them <_<

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Maybe it's people settling for bad design instead of getting good design for about the same price?

From the high end to the low, a couple of examples IMO.

hr1575746-1.jpg

1209 Sterret Street: $ 724,900 4/3+1 1/2/2 car

RosewoodTownhomes.jpg

1519 Wheeler: $190,000 2/2/2 car

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Being new to the architecture thing, I've been doing some reading on the Brownstone designs mainly found in New York. Imo they are terrific and have great character. With the movement toward higher density living and throwback home buying, why isn't someone attempting to resurect these (Brownstone) designs.

Who knows, maybe I'm the only one who likes them <_<

Have you seen the townhomes (condos?) near S. Post Oak and Hidalgo (sorry, I don't know the name of the building)? Just south of Williams Tower.

They resemble some of the 19th century townhouses one might see in Brooklyn Heights or Boston.

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I know some of you here have been reading this as well...

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McKee Street Bridge

Group: Members

Posts: 32

Joined: Tuesday, June 7th, 2005

From: Woodland Heights

Member No.: 894

From a neighbourhood BB. Don't know of this house specifically, so it may have been an unsalvageable dump, but I'm surprised it was so easy to demo a place on the "National Register of Historic Places".

"1801 Ashland is gone.

Both Channel 13 and The Chronicle sent photographers.

Despite being listed on the National Register of Historic Places, it was not legally protected from demolition. The question that lingers is this - why wasn't anyone given a chance to move the building or salvage major parts of it?

The owner, Ryan Hildebrand, writes that he will put a "top drawer" restaurant there. We hear it will have a Victorian theme.

The owner was (and may still be) the chef at Vic and Anthony's, which is owned by the Landry Group.

ABOUT THE HOUSE:

Listed Individually on the National Register of Historic Places in 1983 - Site No. 90. McDonald House. 1801 Ashland. 1907 1900--. Two story frame house; combination roof with projecting gable bay on front with two gable ends; attached double gallery curves to both sides, supported by fluted columns; squared balusters, double French door to upstairs gallery; three sided bay window on lower gallery; single front entrance with transom; windows with one-over-one lights. Home of John E. McDonald, a real estate investor in the Heights; he purchased this property from O. M. Carter in 1907 and built this fine home, complying with the deed restrictions that prohibited construction of buildings costing less than $2000. It later served as the home of A.J. Foyt's grandfather. The area near 19th and Ashland was already established as the commercial center for the Heights; thus this house was in a prime spot from the beginning."

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So, the guy who demolished this historic building has told people essentially "Well, don't worry. We are going to build a new Victorian style building for our Victorian themed restaurant."

I know I am not the only one who thinks this is just plain STUPID. But in relation to this thread, it makes me wonder: They have already pi$$ed off 99% of Heights residents by doing this. So, instead of using it as an opportunity to do something different and creative, it sounds to me like they've probably contracted someone like Allegro to build it. Therefore it will look like every other building Allegro has built (except their own offices, which I like) and just annoy people all the more...

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I am posting this with a glimmer of hope some developer will read it....

We are having a contruction boom in Houston as far as my relatively uninformed eye can see. There are buildings going up everywhere and you know what? They stink! They all look the same.

Everytime I open a design magazine (and, granted, I read modern design mags) there is a story about some cool new highrise or townhome project or single fam re-do in DALLAS that people are raving about. They're getting spreads and huge amounts of coverage that just scream "wow- look how great and progressive and urban DALLAS is..." C'mon poeple, we all know this is a load of crap!!! I lived in Big D for 6 years. It's terrible... Yet it continues to outshine Houston in the national conscience. :angry2:

There is a gigantic complex of apartments going up on Allen Pkwy, right behind that cool warehouse that I would buy if I won the lottery. ^_^ Anyway, they've started the exterior finish. Faux stucco. Ugh! There is so much potential every time a new complex goes up, but everytime it's the same, generic crap.

Is there anything we can do?

Dallas does seem to have a lot of "new urban" projects going up, but then the style of New Urbanism is just a trendy movement among "hip" people. "Hip" people are simply those that keep pace with all the pop culture fads...they're the people that jump right aboard any broad trend, adopting it as their own to impress the neighbors. As far as I, a Houston resident, is concerned, a hip is the flesh that is attached to a femur. Nothing more.

Is urbanity really just a measure of density and walkability or is it something more? I would submit to you that urbanity is more associated with the aggregate influence of an independent and bohemian culture than with streets lined with mid-rise buildings. In that sense, Montrose, essentially a suburb in terms of density, is as urban as Uptown Dallas. Does a "lifestyle center" full of tenants like Pottery Barn and Banana Republic truely urban, or should that title fall to a run down single-tenant indie theater or the Menil Collection's neighborhood?

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Have you seen the townhomes (condos?) near S. Post Oak and Hidalgo (sorry, I don't know the name of the building)? Just south of Williams Tower.

They resemble some of the 19th century townhouses one might see in Brooklyn Heights or Boston.

Two words: Randall Davis

Although I appreciate his renovations of old loft buildings in Houston and Galveston and his new Cosmopolitan proposal project looks nice.

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Is urbanity really just a measure of density and walkability or is it something more? I would submit to you that urbanity is more associated with the aggregate influence of an independent and bohemian culture than with streets lined with mid-rise buildings. In that sense, Montrose, essentially a suburb in terms of density, is as urban as Uptown Dallas. Does a "lifestyle center" full of tenants like Pottery Barn and Banana Republic truely urban, or should that title fall to a run down single-tenant indie theater or the Menil Collection's neighborhood?

I do agree about the concept of urbanity, but at this point in Houston a "lifestyle center" is better than more of the same, same, same IF the architecture is interesting and unique (unlike the lemon in Monstrose- you know the one behind the KFC).

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