Stupid In America Special Pushes School Vouchers

[pineda]

The online blurb touting tonight's 20/20 special called "Stupid in America":

Jan. 9, 2006

[VicMan]

Houston doesn't need school vouchers:

Houston ISD already has school choice policies in place.

See: http://www.houstonisd.org/HISD/portal/arti...3443097,00.html

I advocate for consolidation of other school districts into Houston ISD to further school of choice in Houston.

Stossel is wrong in many, but not all cases.

[pineda]

Vic-

Thanks so much for that link! In looking around, I found another link for HISD Virtual School that I've never heard of before. There was also information about Magnet programs.

HISD may have its' problems, but the array of choices offered are impressive. Thanks!

HISD Virtual School

It seems that this choice of Virtual School competes equally with other home-schooling programs, but without the religious tone of most and without the extra expense. Would that be fair to say, Vic?

[HeightsGuy]

The online blurb touting tonight's 20/20 special called "Stupid in America":

Jan. 9, 2006

[midtown 4.2]

HISD's Magnet or Vanguard programs don't really give parent's freedom of choice. The programs are based on a lottery system. We wanted to send our kids to Poe Elementary, because our inner city school was not up to standards, and found out that it's all "luck of the draw." Poe has space for an additional 25 kids, and they draw the names randomly. It's not fair to keep disadvantaged kids poor. . . it's just another way of keeping them dumb and on the plantation. I'm all for the voucher system, it's the only way I can afford a good education for my kids.

[Rehan]

They have a mandate to pass kids on stupid government tests so all they do is teach to a specific tests.

Speaking of teaching for specific tests, check out HISDs new bonus plan for teachers...

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metrop...an/3584367.html

"...the program will pay annual bonuses topping $3,000 in some cases to teachers whose students show strong gains on state and national standardized tests..."

[pineda]

Speaking about bias; I'm curious about that also. John says that he gave an "international" test to youngsters in Belgium and in the U.S. Belgium has some schools enrolled in the International Baccalaureate Programme. If you compared students studying in that program with others enrolled in "Regular" public school programs, you would definitely see that the IB kids would test better, especially on "international" tests, whatever that means.

Even in my daughter's school, Klein Oak High School, there are divisions there for Regulars, Honors, G/T, AP and even IB. Testing Regulars against kids in other divisions wouldn't be fair there either. At Klein Oak, the counselors and teachers push everyone to get into the toughest classes they can handle, because if they want to go to college, they will need to be ready to handle college-level coursework. It's been proven that the students who take the harder courses in high school are better able to do college-level work.

Unfortunately, it's not a perfect system. There are some students who could be in tougher classes but elect not to do so because they want a perfect G.P.A. They don't care that the harder courses could add points to the GPA. They want all A's in easier courses, so they can have lots of extracurricular time.

And there are students who don't fit the college-bound track for one reason or another. These students in particular seem to be ones we need to be looking out for the most, to offer them more choices in life. So many teenagers, when they get in high school and don't get into these harder courses, just give up and quit trying. My own opinion about this problem is that the middle schools need to be preparing these students better. High schools offer many choices, but the middle schools seem to be the stumbling block, where lots of bright learners from elementary school start down the wrong path and no one seems to notice. By the time these kids get to high school, it's just too late for them and they know it.

[HeightsGuy]

I wonder how fair these comparisons with other countries are. After all, kids in other countries are often routed into vocational schools at comparatively early ages, whereas, for good or ill, we tend to keep as many of ours as possible on a college-bound track. If you pitted our best and brightest against theirs, I'll bet you'd find the competition would be pretty intense.

Of course our best are as bright as their best. Any kid with the right mix of basic smarts plus good study habits will turn into a scholar no matter what country they grow up in. It's the second and third tier students where America is getting kicked. Not every kid is cut out for Calculus, but it is very apparent that other countries are giving their kids a well-rounded education while we teach our kids to pass that year's test.

[pineda]

interesting article I just found on the internet that you might like to read as well...

[VicMan]

HISD's Magnet or Vanguard programs don't really give parent's freedom of choice. The programs are based on a lottery system. We wanted to send our kids to Poe Elementary, because our inner city school was not up to standards, and found out that it's all "luck of the draw." Poe has space for an additional 25 kids, and they draw the names randomly. It's not fair to keep disadvantaged kids poor. . . it's just another way of keeping them dumb and on the plantation. I'm all for the voucher system, it's the only way I can afford a good education for my kids.

Did you try Roberts? The Rice School? River Oaks? There are TONS of alternative programs out there. Just because your kid doesn't get into one doesn't mean he or she won't get into another.

You could ask for a new program to be created. When the magnet schools fill, HISD oftentimes has another magnet school created to meet the demand.

And if vouchers are instated, wouldn't there be the same issue with private schools getting kids?

It seems that this choice of Virtual School competes equally with other home-schooling programs, but without the religious tone of most and without the extra expense. Would that be fair to say, Vic?

Yeah, that's fair to say, Pineda.

[uncertaintraveler]

Admittedly, this is slightly off-topic, but the essential problem with the school system (in Texas and elsewhere) is that there are too many administrators and not enough teachers.

The first problem can be easily remedied: just fire half of the administration--you'd still probably have too many people in the system, but at least it would be a start in the right direction.

The second problem can be just as easily remedied:

1) immediately repeal teacher-incentive bonuses (probably created by MBA-consultants who think every problem in the world can be solved by solutions that work in the business environment---never considering, apparently, who would want a job (aside from college/basketball coaches, perhaps) whose income is dependent upon the actions of hyper-active, hormone-filled youngsters);

2) immediately increase all teacher salaries (across the board) by 50%;

3) immediately grant teachers the right (and the ability) to give their students a "3-strikes and your out" policy (as in, a kid screws up three times, they are kicked out, with no questions asked and no appeal process available), without any interference from the principal or the board of education (although...perhaps, I could see a need for one appeals level, but only one appeal, so an aggrieved student better use it wisely);

4) immediately grant teachers the right (and the ability) to assign as much homework, activities, and classwork as they deem necessary;

5) immediately cap class sizes at 20 students, regardless of how "special" or "brilliant" or "gifted" the students are in said class;

6) immediately require all teachers to complete a masters program in their field of study within 7 years of their hire date; and

7) immediately require all administrators (those that are left, anyway) to spend one year out of every three in the classroom teaching. Too many administrators, sitting behind desks they don't deserve based on qualifications they no longer have, have forgotten what actual teaching is, and what it requires..

I'm sure there are other ways to improve the school systems, but that should be a good start...

There are too many whining parents (who won't allow their little rug-rat to be required to do anything that would infringe upon their "childhood experience," whatever that means) who force weak-spined school boards to limit the amount of homework that can be assigned (at one school I know of, the maximum amount of homework that can be given is 20 minutes a week!!!), the amount of work their child should have to do in school, and the amount of punishment a child can be given (we mustn't hurt their little feelings, after all...). Good grief, until the education system starts improving, it shouldn't be at all surprising to these "oh, my child is so wonderful" parents why we are quickly becoming a third-world nation.

[HeightsGuy]

Admittedly, this is slightly off-topic, but the essential problem with the school system (in Texas and elsewhere) is that there are too many administrators and not enough teachers.

The first problem can be easily remedied: just fire half of the administration--you'd still probably have too many people in the system, but at least it would be a start in the right direction.

I wholeheartedly agree with that one. Harris County alone has 22 Independent School Districts, each with it's own taxing authority, 6 figure+ Superintendant, and full administrative staff. Firing someone only leaves a vacuum unless you reshape the entire structure. I don't know what the right answer is, but 22 districts seems excessive and doesn't even take into account the surrounding counties.

[bachanon]

concerning the argument that vouchers take money away from the public schools it's important to note that the federal government funds only 8.3 cents of each dollar spent on education. our property taxes and the states pay the lion's share.

States and localities are the primary sources of K-12 education funding and always have been.

Total U.S. Expenditures for Elementary and Secondary Education

In the 2004-05 school year, 83 cents out of every dollar spent on education is estimated to come from the state and local levels (45.6 percent from state funds and 37.1 percent from local governments). The federal government's share is 8.3 percent. The remaining 8.9 percent is from private sources, primarily for private schools. [ * * ]This division of support remains consistent with our nation's historic reliance on local control of schools.

link to dept. of education site

ditto uncertaintravelers last post.

[RedScare]

Of course our best are as bright as their best. Any kid with the right mix of basic smarts plus good study habits will turn into a scholar no matter what country they grow up in. It's the second and third tier students where America is getting kicked. Not every kid is cut out for Calculus, but it is very apparent that other countries are giving their kids a well-rounded education while we teach our kids to pass that year's test.

Actually, WE are giving kids the "well-rounded" education. Other countries are simply educating their students...well.

And, yes, this teach the test mentality is nuts. But, what did the school-as-business types expect would happen? If you keep score, people will adapt to the scoring method.

And, I hate to be the one to break the news, but the problem is not the schools. The problem is the parents. Parents elect the school board members. Parents elect "accountability" politicians, who come up with lame-brained tests as a solution, and cut spending on education. And, most of all, parents don't demand excellence of their own children. They are so busy demanding excellence and accountability of everyone else, they forget that it starts at home.

[pineda]

And, I hate to be the one to break the news, but the problem is not the schools. The problem is the parents. Parents elect the school board members. Parents elect "accountability" politicians, who come up with lame-brained tests as a solution, and cut spending on education. And, most of all, parents don't demand excellence of their own children. They are so busy demanding excellence and accountability of everyone else, they forget that it starts at home.

Red, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought we ALL voted for school board members and we ALL voted for those "accountability" politicians, not just those of us who actually have schoolchildren. I've attended many school board meetings and watched my neighbors who are on that board work tirelessly to come up with the best possible solutions and they do it without any monetary compensation. So, I think it's a bit unfair to label their actions as the problem either. As for politicians, where do you start? They all seem to start off with good intentions, but get caught in the "game" and unless they get a majority of others to vote for their plans, nothing ever changes. But, most of all, I would respectfully disagree with your accusation that parents don't demand excellence of their own children. Every parent I know not only expects but demands excellence from their children, as well as from the teachers and schools. No one wants to have a child go through Kindegarten till 12th and end up barely able to punch in orders at a fast food joint. That's a waste of time for the parent as well as the child and a potential drain on society. No one wants that. Some people may not have the best parenting skills, but it is too broad of a generalization for you to make that parents don't demand excellence of their own children. We all want children we can be proud of.

"And, I hate to be the one to break the news, but the problem is not the schools. The problem is the LAWYERS. LAWYERS elect the school board members. LAWYERS elect "accountability" politicians, who come up with lame-brained tests as a solution, and cut spending on education. And, most of all, LAWYERS don't demand excellence of their own children. They are so busy demanding excellence and accountability of everyone else, they forget that it starts at home."

[RedScare]

OK, I'll concede I was wrong. It is not the hard working honorable and tireless school board members, the hard working, honorable politicians, or the devoted parents that is the problem. It must be the Koreans, Indians, Japanese and Chinese, who push their children to excel more than they should. I feel better that it is not our fault.

These other countries should be held accountable for their actions. I think we should buy more of their products to teach them a lesson.

[pineda]

from the 20/20 special tonight, did you see it?

Jay Greene, the educational expert quoted in the special tonight

[nmainguy]

A few questions for anyone who may have knowledge on the topic:

What is the average price of tuition for a private school?

How would government issued vouchers be paid for and who would qualify?

Could you use taxpayer funds to pay for vouchers that may be applied to parochial schools?

I don't want to get into the pros and cons of public vs. private education. I sincerly am interested in the viability and costs involved.

Maybe if we could get a grip on that, we could move on from there?

Anyone have any ideas/answers?

[VicMan]

I wholeheartedly agree with that one. Harris County alone has 22 Independent School Districts, each with it's own taxing authority, 6 figure+ Superintendant, and full administrative staff. Firing someone only leaves a vacuum unless you reshape the entire structure. I don't know what the right answer is, but 22 districts seems excessive and doesn't even take into account the surrounding counties.

I agree.

I want the following districts to be formed out of existing districts:

* Houston ISD - Covers ALL of the city of Houston (including Alief, North Forest, Aldine, Spring Branch, Kingwood, etc) - Aldine, Alief, North Forest, and Spring Branch ISDs would be consolidated into Houston ISD, and areas and schools (along with staff members of those schools) of other ISDs will be redistricted into Houston ISD

* Humble ISD (what is left of it) - Absorbs Sheldon ISD, Crosby ISD, and Huffman ISD (as well as a portion of Cleveland ISD)

* Pasadena ISD is renamed to East Harris ISD - Absorbs Galena Park ISD, Deer Park ISD, Channelview ISD, and La Porte ISD - Parts of Jacinto City redistricted into Pasadena ISD

* Clear Creek ISD - Absorbs Friendswood ISD and Dickinson ISD - Part of Santa Fe ISD (the League City part) is redistricted into Clear Creek ISD

* Fort Bend ISD (what is left of it) - Absorbs Lamar Consolidated ISD - Parts of Arcola and Missouri City are redistricted into Fort Bend ISD

* Pearland ISD is renamed to Pearland/North Brazoria ISD - Absorbs Alvin ISD

* Cypress-Fairbanks ISD is renamed to Northwest Harris ISD - Absorbs Klein ISD and Spring ISD

* Galveston ISD - Absorbs High Island ISD, Santa Fe ISD, Texas City ISD, La Marque ISD, and perhaps a few other Galveston County ISDs.

* Conroe ISD - Absorbs Montgomery ISD and New Caney ISD

You get the point, right, guys?

[Ashikaga]

from the 20/20 special tonight, did you see it?

Jay Greene, the educational expert quoted in the special tonight

I personally am opposed to vouchers because it would eventually take the "private" out of the private schools. If they were to accept federal money they would have to abide by federal laws as to ethic groups and races they could or couldn't admit. Then they would become public.

[VicMan]

Alright. Here I will explain a bit more about why I am against school vouchers in Texas.

1. There is already a system of school choice in place that is for free both within the school districts and outside of the school districts (state charters)

2. As private schools are not governed by the Texas Education Agency, I would imagine many want nothing to do with the state government

3. I do not want my tax money to go towards religious institutions (in the religious institution cases)

In public policy one has to weigh costs vs. benefits with every decision. An attempt to legalize vouchers in Texas will take more legal funds, more state resources, and the intellectual and emotional resources of various state representatives.

Yes, I am aware that vouchers for private schools are constitutional as per U.S. law, but that does not mean that they ought to be created in Texas.

However I am in favor of private school scholarships from companies. In Philadelphia a group of companies created their own private school scholarship system that is funded by private funds. See http://www.csfphiladelphia.org/html/csf_aboutUs_mission.html as an example

[musicman]

with the way the school systems are going, we're already on our way to being stupid. a coworker told me that at his son's school, they no longer grade spelling tests (so one child won't feel worse than the other if they see more writing on one test vs another). the teacher writes a note at the top of each paper instead, each of a similar length. something similar to " you need to work on your spelling"

the public school system basically monopolizes the industry and without real competition, wont change for the better.

[Vertigo58]

Wow old topic. Actually the word stupid is a strong ugly word.

I know the system is and probably never will be perfect but I can only state that the US has never done a good job about teaching students from grade school & up more of historical events & heroes, etc... in all cultures. I just remember the teachers having us read about the triumphs & inventions of American born people but not from other countries/lands. Now as an adult I have to dig up and research on other countries since it was not in the dogma or whatever when growing up as a kid. The history books were

just divoid or missing these pages. Why? Don't teachers or faculty want to let you know about your ancestors discoveries and contributions as well? Surely every country around the world has it's positive contributors.

Secondly and most importantly is how we kids only were learning one language. When I speak to others now in Spain, Italy, Poland, etc they tell me the schools have them learning up to 3 other languages, mainly English. By the time they graduate from High School they know at least 3 languages. Its interesting to get the perspective of students around the world. They ask me how we could not have been taught more than just English?

[VicMan]

Not grading a spelling test to avoid injuring a child's feelings will lead to further problems down the road. In real life performance matters. Schools need to make this clear to children.

Some of the questions that are relevant to this: Is this a policy of the teacher? The school? The district? - What kinds of transfers does the district allow? What state charters are near your coworker?

In cases where the entire district is rotten (i.e. North Forest ISD) state charters and inter-district transfers (Houston ISD now allows for people out-of-district to attend for free if they get in) help.

with the way the school systems are going, we're already on our way to being stupid. a coworker told me that at his son's school, they no longer grade spelling tests (so one child won't feel worse than the other if they see more writing on one test vs another). the teacher writes a note at the top of each paper instead, each of a similar length. something similar to " you need to work on your spelling"

the public school system basically monopolizes the industry and without real competition, wont change for the better.

Europe has a similar land area to the U.S., but it has various official languages throughout various countries. I can see why Europeans learn more languages. However I agree that it would be great for American schools to begin teaching multiple languages. In big city school districts some magnets already do this.

Wow old topic. Actually the word stupid is a strong ugly word.

I know the system is and probably never will be perfect but I can only state that the US has never done a good job about teaching students from grade school & up more of historical events & heroes, etc... in all cultures. I just remember the teachers having us read about the triumphs & inventions of American born people but not from other countries/lands. Now as an adult I have to dig up and research on other countries since it was not in the dogma or whatever when growing up as a kid. The history books were

just divoid or missing these pages. Why? Don't teachers or faculty want to let you know about your ancestors discoveries and contributions as well? Surely every country around the world has it's positive contributors.

Secondly and most importantly is how we kids only were learning one language. When I speak to others now in Spain, Italy, Poland, etc they tell me the schools have them learning up to 3 other languages, mainly English. By the time they graduate from High School they know at least 3 languages. Its interesting to get the perspective of students around the world. They ask me how we could not have been taught more than just English?

[musicman]

Not grading a spelling test to avoid injuring a child's feelings will lead to further problems down the road. In real life performance matters. Schools need to make this clear to children.

Some of the questions that are relevant to this: Is this a policy of the teacher? The school? The district? -

the district supposedly. the curricula is public schools has definitely dumbed up since I was in school. and now not grading papers because a child's feelings could be hurt??

whether the child can transfer is another issue altogether.

Europe has a similar land area to the U.S., but it has various official languages throughout various countries. I can see why Europeans learn more languages. However I agree that it would be great for American schools to begin teaching multiple languages. In big city school districts some magnets already do this.

when i child has been attending public schools here for 3 yrs and can't speak english is that a problem?

[VicMan]

1. Yes, it's very wacko. A state charter or an inter-district transfer would be the solution in this case. If the district does not have many state charters, more should start within the district's boundaries.

2. The public magnets that teach multiple languages (i.e. English, French, and Chinese) to native English speakers and schools who cater to immigrants who are learning English need completely different approaches to the education. It is a problem when immigrant children who need to learn English are not progressing quickly enough. It is great when the native speaker of English also learns French and Chinese at the same time.

the district supposedly. the curricula is public schools has definitely dumbed up since I was in school. and now not grading papers because a child's feelings could be hurt??

whether the child can transfer is another issue altogether.

when i child has been attending public schools here for 3 yrs and can't speak english is that a problem?

[musicman]

1. Yes, it's very wacko. A state charter or an inter-district transfer would be the solution in this case. If the district does not have many state charters, more should start within the district's boundaries.

If the district is encouraging teaching in this manner, then transferring isn't a solution. you can't ignore the basic problem with schools.

2. The public magnets that teach multiple languages (i.e. English, French, and Chinese) to native English speakers and schools who cater to immigrants who are learning English need completely different approaches to the education.

I understand that however i'm not sure the district does. this has nothing to do with magnet schools. it is disturbing to me that parents don't find it odd that their children can't speak english when they've been in public schools here for yrs.

[VicMan]

1. Yes, I agree the district needs to change its management style so that children get adequate pressure to do well in school. Realistically I do not know how likely the district (which one?) will act in a timely manner to change its policies. Will a drop in enrollment convince the district to quickly change its policies?

2. One function of a school is to socialize a student, so, yes, it is appropriate to induce the child to learn English at a reasonably quick rate, and parents ought to promote this process.

If the district is encouraging teaching in this manner, then transferring isn't a solution. you can't ignore the basic problem with schools.

I understand that however i'm not sure the district does. this has nothing to do with magnet schools. it is disturbing to me that parents don't find it odd that their children can't speak english when they've been in public schools here for yrs.

[musicman]

1. Yes, I agree the district needs to change its management style so that children get adequate pressure to do well in school. Realistically I do not know how likely the district (which one?) will act in a timely manner to change its policies. Will a drop in enrollment convince the district to quickly change its policies?

why would there be a drop in enrollment of the entire district is teaching similarly?

2. One fuction of a school is to socialize a student, so, yes, it is appropriate to induce the child to learn English at a reasonably quick rate, and parents ought to promote this process.

in hisd there is no incentive because they are able to obtain additional funding sources by offering these classes, even though its goals aren't what most expect them to be.

[VicMan]

1. Let's say there is a small-to-medium sized district - District A. If the parents generally do not like what the district is teaching and decide to go to charter schools, then there would be a district-wide decrease. I believe this is what is happening with North Forest ISD.

2. If you are referring to the way English-and-Spanish bilingual programs are taught, would you say the underlying problem is with the parents, the district, or both? What incentive should the state deploy to ensure that the children are taught English at a reasonably quick rate? What incentive should the middle schools use for feeder elementary schools which prepare children with English-language knowledge?

As a reference about bilingual education, I found a listing of Texas laws related to it: http://www.tea.state.tx.us/curriculum/biling/tec5164.html - while all of the links to the specific codes are dead, one can use web.archive.org to access old pages.

why would there be a drop in enrollment of the entire district is teaching similarly?

in hisd there is no incentive because they are able to obtain additional funding sources by offering these classes, even though its goals aren't what most expect them to be.