Commuter rail should be a priority to connect Houston and Hobby to Galveston and it's cruise terminal and beaches

[cougarpad]

I have been spending time in Galveston recently and it amazes me that Metro, Houston, Galveston, and the smaller municipalities have not prioritized commuter rail from Houston Hobby area to Galveston. The cruise terminal in Galveston is such a big business on the island and brings thousands to the island. Then there are the beaches and restaurants that locals like to go to in the Houston and Galveston area. There should be a commuter rail going from close to where Hobby is to Galveston most noticeaby at the old train station that is across from the cruise terminal and the Island Trasit hub parking garage.

 

Thousands of people fly into Hobby who are going to go on one of the cruise ships that in the Galveston port, yet passengers once at Hobby have to take a cab or rent a car to get to the cruise terminal. There is so much built in ridership right there of cruise passengers that would be profitable for the commuter rail. Then you have all the local Houstonians that drive down to Galveston and have to pay for parking when they could be using a commuter rail that is much more convenient then taking a car down especially since the station in Galveston would be right next to the island transportation hub. Houston would just need to connect one of the new planned transportation lines to a commuter rail station in Houston. During the summer months especially a commuter rail would get good ridership and be very profitable.

 

If Dallas can build a light rail that goes from Dallas  to Denton, then surely Houston and Galveston should be able to find a way to get a commuter rail going between the two cities, especially with all the rail lines that exist in the area. It would just take some planning with the rail lines to coordinate commuter trains with the freight trains going and comming from Galveston. This is such a no brainer and should be a priority project. Get this thing going!

[JBTX]

I do completely agree with you, however, one note would be that Carnival does offer shuttles from Hobby to the Cruise Terminals.

But again...totally agree.

[Houston19514]

2 hours ago, cougarpad said:

If Dallas can build a light rail that goes from Dallas  to Denton, then surely Houston and Galveston should be able to find a way to get a commuter rail going between the two cities, especially with all the rail lines that exist in the area. It would just take some planning with the rail lines to coordinate commuter trains with the freight trains going and comming from Galveston. 

Just to fill in a bit of context...  Dallas didn't exactly build "a light rail" that goes from Dallas to Denton.  To get from Dallas to Denton, one actually has to take DART light rail to the end of its line and then switch to the Denton County Transit commuter rail.  Minimum trip time from St Paul station downtown Dallas to Denton: 1 hour 32 minutes.  That's from the time the train leaves St Paul station to arrival at Denton. This is for a trip similar in length to the drive from Hobby to Galveston.  

FWIW, pre-COVID, the entire Denton County A-Train line, 21 miles long with 6 stations, service every 30 minutes all day (roughly 32 trains per day in each direction) was carrying less than 1500 people per day.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Houston19514

[j_cuevas713]

4 hours ago, cougarpad said:

I have been spending time in Galveston recently and it amazes me that Metro, Houston, Galveston, and the smaller municipalities have not prioritized commuter rail from Houston Hobby area to Galveston. The cruise terminal in Galveston is such a big business on the island and brings thousands to the island. Then there are the beaches and restaurants that locals like to go to in the Houston and Galveston area. There should be a commuter rail going from close to where Hobby is to Galveston most noticeaby at the old train station that is across from the cruise terminal and the Island Trasit hub parking garage.

 

Thousands of people fly into Hobby who are going to go on one of the cruise ships that in the Galveston port, yet passengers once at Hobby have to take a cab or rent a car to get to the cruise terminal. There is so much built in ridership right there of cruise passengers that would be profitable for the commuter rail. Then you have all the local Houstonians that drive down to Galveston and have to pay for parking when they could be using a commuter rail that is much more convenient then taking a car down especially since the station in Galveston would be right next to the island transportation hub. Houston would just need to connect one of the new planned transportation lines to a commuter rail station in Houston. During the summer months especially a commuter rail would get good ridership and be very profitable.

 

If Dallas can build a light rail that goes from Dallas  to Denton, then surely Houston and Galveston should be able to find a way to get a commuter rail going between the two cities, especially with all the rail lines that exist in the area. It would just take some planning with the rail lines to coordinate commuter trains with the freight trains going and comming from Galveston. This is such a no brainer and should be a priority project. Get this thing going!

I've been saying this forever. Commuter rail from Downtown to Galveston would be huge for the area.  

[dbigtex56]

Make no mistake - I would love to see rail service from Houston to Galveston. 
But to play Devil's advocate, is there really enough demand to make it feasible? 
Checking Megabus and Greyhound's websites, I notice that neither offer service to Galveston. Surely if there was a market, someone would have exploited it by now. True, rail has more appeal than bus service - but is it sexy enough to suddenly attract thousands of riders?
Also (and this is just my impression) perhaps Galveston might not be wild about people who would be attracted by cheap fares. The Islanders had an expression "They come here from Houston with a dirty shirt and a $10 bill, and never change either one." Attracting tourists is to their advantage only if said tourists have money and are willing to spend it. Otherwise, they're just one more headache to deal with.

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[Subdude]

There was briefly rail service from the downtown Amtrak station to Galveston in the 1990s. Unfortunately, it seems that demand wasn't there since it didn't last too long. 

 

 

[s3mh]

If Tillman ever got his way and got casinos on Galveston, there might be enough demand to make a commuter rail line make sense.  But there really aren't that many people flying to Houston to vacation in Galveston.  I remember when I was a little kid in the 70s, on the Price is Right showcase showdown there was always one really great prize package and one lousy one.  On the lousy one, they would have a trip to Galveston.  I love going to the beach in Galveston, but it is pretty obvious why people would choose to go to Florida or Mexico instead of Galveston.  Houston needs commuter rail for commuters.  There should be rail from the Woodlands, Sugar Land, Cypress, Pearland, Clear Lake and Katy to downtown as well as connecting the energy corridor to the Woodlands and Sugar Land.  That would be an amazing option for commuters to save money and time in traffic.  

[wilcal]

Building anything based on cruiser demand except for highly localized infrastructure doesn't make sense because of the costs. Where would it make sense to stop commuter rail service along 45. Maybe League City? It is still like 25 miles from League City to Galveston. Atlanta's freeway median commuter rail along I-20 was $3.2 billion for 19.2 miles ($170 million/mile), and that is without building a new bridge to Galveston. So is just an extension for rail from League City to Galveston worth $3-$4 billion? Absolutely not. There are probably about 100 projects that would be a better use of that money if Houston was paying for it and I doubt Galveston/cruise industry could support that.

Basically, I don't think there is any way that a few thousand tourists per day would justify $3-$4 billion. 

 

 

[wilcal]

16 hours ago, dbigtex56 said:

Make no mistake - I would love to see rail service from Houston to Galveston. 
But to play Devil's advocate, is there really enough demand to make it feasible? 
Checking Megabus and Greyhound's websites, I notice that neither offer service to Galveston. Surely if there was a market, someone would have exploited it by now. True, rail has more appeal than bus service - but is it sexy enough to suddenly attract thousands of riders?
Also (and this is just my impression) perhaps Galveston might not be wild about people who would be attracted by cheap fares. The Islanders had an expression "They come here from Houston with a dirty shirt and a $10 bill, and never change either one." Attracting tourists is to their advantage only if said tourists have money and are willing to spend it. Otherwise, they're just one more headache to deal with.

 

Amtrak was actually offering bus service, but you couldn't originate in Houston. Flixbus was going to launch service, and had approached Galveston City Council about which street to put it on, but COVID killed it at least temporarily. METRO also had a partnership with Galveston to run the Island Express which also got killed within the past few years.

4 hours ago, Subdude said:

There was briefly rail service from the downtown Amtrak station to Galveston in the 1990s. Unfortunately, it seems that demand wasn't there since it didn't last too long. 

I think that this one got killed because of issues with delays from freight service having he right of way and probably low demand.

[cougarpad]

On 6/30/2021 at 11:26 AM, wilcal said:

Amtrak was actually offering bus service, but you couldn't originate in Houston. Flixbus was going to launch service, and had approached Galveston City Council about which street to put it on, but COVID killed it at least temporarily. METRO also had a partnership with Galveston to run the Island Express which also got killed within the past few years.

I think that this one got killed because of issues with delays from freight service having he right of way and probably low demand.

I just dont see how a commuter rail between Houston and Galveston would have low demand. Now that Houston is going to have a decent transportation system it would not be hard to connect a BRT or light rail line to the commuter rail. Ideally if could extend the new Hobby extention to a commuter rail station it be perfect. People flying into Hobby would not have to worry about cabs and transportation and parkind down on the island for a cruise when can take the rail. Plus I find it hard to beleive that many Houstonians would not take advantage of the line to get down to the beaches on Galveston or the Strand, especially if the commuter rail station on the island is the old Rail Station currently a museum. That station would be right across from the island transit center. We are getting to a place with the mass transportation being built and available in the two cities make a commuter rail between Galveston and Houston a no brainer. Also stops at locations like in League City and Clear Lake are perfect places. Not only would that allow for access to the commuter rail for entertainment and pleasure use, but it would also be beneficial with Houston's new transportation lines being built that the rail could be used for work commutes as well especially in Downtown Houston.

Edited July 6, 2021 by cougarpad

[Texasota]

Given the time and expense of building rail in this country, I would argue for making it part of Metro's Regional Express bus system. At least at first.

[wilcal]

35 minutes ago, cougarpad said:

I just dont see how a commuter rail between Houston and Galveston would have low demand. Now that Houston is going to have a decent transportation system it would not be hard to connect a BRT or light rail line to the commuter rail. Ideally if could extend the new Hobby extention to a commuter rail station it be perfect.

There's no need to guess. Nobody rode the year-long pilot for express bus service (two stops) that had timings specifically designed for commuters https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/transportation/2018/08/23/301474/after-less-than-a-year-houston-to-galveston-bus-service-is-cancelled/

The average was 10 riders/day for $9/passenger https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/texas-news/public-bus-service-between-galveston-houston-ends-friday/242724/

Commuter rail would probably even take longer with the stops required on a 50 mile route. Just downtown to Hobby on light rail is expected to take 20-24 minutes including stops IIRC. And that is what, 20% of the journey?

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People flying into Hobby would not have to worry about cabs and transportation and parkind down on the island for a cruise when can take the rail.

Even if every single cruise passenger that went to Galveston flew into Hobby and took the rail that would be 2,700 people/day on average. The real issue is that we've already spent a ton of cash on 45 expansion, and outside of 5-10 peak hours per week, 45 is completely free-flowing all of the way to Galveston. Cruise ship buses would also be faster than rail. 

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Plus I find it hard to beleive that many Houstonians would not take advantage of the line to get down to the beaches on Galveston or the Strand, especially if the commuter rail station on the island is the old Rail Station currently a museum. That station would be right across from the island transit center. We are getting to a place with the mass transportation being built and available in the two cities make a commuter rail between Galveston and Houston a no brainer. Also stops at locations like in League City and Clear Lake are perfect places. Not only would that allow for access to the commuter rail for entertainment and pleasure use, but it would also be beneficial with Houston's new transportation lines being built that the rail could be used for work commutes as well especially in Downtown Houston.

I mean.... I can. Look at the state of METRO Park and Ride service on the weekend. I doubt people are going to load up their kids on a 30-40 minute ride downtown from whatever suburb they live in then a one hour ride to Galveston for what, a $10 fare per person? When they already own a car that can probably get them there 30-50% faster for the same price or less?

Please don't get me wrong, I would love having train service to Galveston, but that money would be much better spent on additional lines within the Houston area. By... a lot. Like I said, a Galveston train would be about 100th on the list of where I would spend $4 billion on transportation. 

 

 

 

 

23 minutes ago, Texasota said:

Given the time and expense of building rail in this country, I would argue for making it part of Metro's Regional Express bus system. At least at first.

As I just mentioned in my reply, they gave it a shot for a year with $9/one-way fares and a stop at Bay Area P&R and Texas City and they averaged 10 fares/day. 

[arche_757]

I think something like an InterUrban line that has stops at maybe 5 places with a terminus at the 25th Street & The Strand (thereabouts) would be fantastic!  There are a lot of off-isle workers in Galveston (unfortunately for Galveston) who would probably use something like that provided they could access it from League City and/or Webster.  The big issue with any heavy rail transit here in Houston, is it would need to connect to a decent local-level service.  Island Transit would work for Galveston but there’s nothing in the Clear Lake/League City areas.  The added connection to HOU and Downtown would be a solid plus.  Then go ahead and run it to IAH and The Woodlands.

Maybe the right-honorable-judge Mark Henry will jump on this as soon as Galveston’s troops return from securing the southern border 🧐!  I mean, if he can pay for that nonsense then they can cover costs to convert some existing rail line to passenger service!

Edited July 6, 2021 by arche_757

[Texasota]

2 hours ago, wilcal said:

There's no need to guess. Nobody rode the year-long pilot for express bus service (two stops) that had timings specifically designed for commuters https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/transportation/2018/08/23/301474/after-less-than-a-year-houston-to-galveston-bus-service-is-cancelled/

The average was 10 riders/day for $9/passenger https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/texas-news/public-bus-service-between-galveston-houston-ends-friday/242724/

 

Nobody rode it because it was almost useless. Three round trips per day on weekdays? How is that a useful service? This is so often the problem with transit in this country. We provide low quality, low frequency transit and then are surprised when nobody rides it.

The Regional Express bus system is supposed to upgrade the park n rides to behave like real regional service, going both directions at a relatively high frequency including on weekends. I think the current plan terminates a route in Clear Lake maybe? Extend that to the island and you have the potential for something people might actually use.

 

[wilcal]

8 minutes ago, Texasota said:

Nobody rode it because it was almost useless. Three round trips per day on weekdays? How is that a useful service? This is so often the problem with transit in this country. We provide low quality, low frequency transit and then are surprised when nobody rides it.

The Regional Express bus system is supposed to upgrade the park n rides to behave like real regional service, going both directions at a relatively high frequency including on weekends. I think the current plan terminates a route in Clear Lake maybe?

 

It was timed for people that would work in downtown. I don't have any stats on people that live in galveston and commute to downtown or vice versa. 

Who are these fringe cases that would be riding to Galveston on a Thursday at 130pm and need frequent bus service?

We are talking about frequency for a 50 mile long bus route here! And there was weekend service, but I think it was only twice/day? I could be wrong there.

 

And yes, P&R service is supposed to be greatly increased, including weekend service as part of METRONext whenever they decide to get around to it.

You might find this interested, Austin FC just launched their home stadium and there is P&R service setup to several destinations for attendees. You have to wonder how well that would do for Astros/Rockets/Texans/Dynamo. 

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Extend that to the island and you have the potential for something people might actually use.

I'm still unconvinced. If Galveston wanted to pay for it then I'm sure METRO would interline and let them use the P&R stations, they just aren't going to pay for it. 

[Montrose1100]

Hopping on a train would be great to head down to Gtown and drink on the strand. Some of the best bars would be a serious walk though. But going to the beach and lugging stuff around sounds annoying. Especially families who would have to park or get to Downtown, then hop on the train with their screaming litter... exhausting. 

[cougarpad]

4 hours ago, Montrose1100 said:

Hopping on a train would be great to head down to Gtown and drink on the strand. Some of the best bars would be a serious walk though. But going to the beach and lugging stuff around sounds annoying. Especially families who would have to park or get to Downtown, then hop on the train with their screaming litter... exhausting. 

Parking in Galveston can be a nightmare, yet alone the traffic. Recently got tboned by a lady making an illegal u-turn from the direction against the seawall. She just put the pedal down and turned right into opposite coming traffic which was me.  I could see people taking a commuter rail to Galveston so not to have to deal with all that. There are plenty of restaurants and convenient stores along the seawall to buy beach essentials like beverages one you are on Galveston. Plus going to the restaurant and bars on the Strand and Post Office is not a major walk because Galveston has the wheeled trolleys and is working on getting the rail trolleys working again.

Edited July 7, 2021 by cougarpad

[wilcal]

On 6/30/2021 at 6:56 AM, Subdude said:

There was briefly rail service from the downtown Amtrak station to Galveston in the 1990s. Unfortunately, it seems that demand wasn't there since it didn't last too long. 

I mentioned above that I think freight priority killed scheduling on the previous service, and this would solve that problem!

 

[H-Town Man]

On 6/30/2021 at 6:56 AM, Subdude said:

There was briefly rail service from the downtown Amtrak station to Galveston in the 1990s. Unfortunately, it seems that demand wasn't there since it didn't last too long. 

 

 

Rode this as a kid. It was fun, meeting other people and talking to them. I remember stepping on gum somewhere and tracking it around the train. Funny how things like that stay in your mind.

Any train to Galveston would require additional bus usage getting around Galveston and will likely not be attractive to people who do not typically ride buses. Especially if you have kids and are carrying all the bags of swim articles. I love trains but driving the car to Galveston is just so easy.

 

[Texasota]

Well, or improving service/extending the streetcar, which I believe they are testing now for returning it to service.

[wilcal]

Article that mentions in the 89-94 service:

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Houston-Galveston-passenger-train-could-roll-again-1827339.php

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Union Pacific Railroad, which operates the line from Houston to the Galveston Island bridge, is waiting to see whether the study group can devise a plan that won't interfere with its freight operations, said Joe Adams, special assistant to the UP chairman. "The project would be feasible, but it would take a very significant investment in rail capacity," Adams said.

Coordinating service

The most difficult challenge will be to coordinate the passenger service with freight service at the north end of the route and at the railroad bridge to Galveston Island, he said.

Only six to eight freight trains ply most of the freight line, making coordination easy, Beverlin said. But 40 or more freight trains a day use a 3- to 4-mile-long segment at the north end of the route, he said.

Adams said the bridge to Galveston Island, which opens a span for barge traffic, could be a choke point because barge traffic has the right of way. Beverlin and Bertini said trains would have the right of way if a scheduled train route were in place.

 

[wilcal]

13 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

Rode this as a kid. It was fun, meeting other people and talking to them. I remember stepping on gum somewhere and tracking it around the train. Funny how things like that stay in your mind.

Any train to Galveston would require additional bus usage getting around Galveston and will likely not be attractive to people who do not typically ride buses. Especially if you have kids and are carrying all the bags of swim articles. I love trains but driving the car to Galveston is just so easy.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Texasota said:

Well, or improving service/extending the streetcar, which I believe they are testing now for returning it to service.

Looks like the trolley expansion is running? https://www.galvestontrolley.com/

$1 and kids are free with free transfer onto the Seawall route. 30 minute service. Stops right outside the train museum/depot. 

Seawall route runs between Steward Beach and Moody Gardens.

[Texasota]

Bah. 30 minute headways. Might as well not run it at all.

[zaphod]

What would it take to just get a bus from Galveston to Houston up and running? Seems more attainable and a better fit for the likely ridership at this point.

[wilcal]

40 minutes ago, zaphod said:

What would it take to just get a bus from Galveston to Houston up and running? Seems more attainable and a better fit for the likely ridership at this point.

Flixbus was getting close and then COVID hit. You can look further up in the thread where we discuss a previous public attempt a few years ago that had $9 one-way service 3X/daily and only averaged about 10 riders/day over the course of a  year.