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Uptown Dallas Density

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Uptown development booming

09:54 AM CDT on Friday, November 2, 2007

By STEVE BROWN / The Dallas Morning News

stevebrown@dallasnews.com

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...wn.346c5ae.html

If you want to know what a building boom looks like, take a gander at Uptown.

I'm glad for Dallas but all that overbuilding is just sucking life from downtown as we speak.

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I'm glad for Dallas but all that overbuilding is just sucking life from downtown as we speak.

True. But once that new park is built over Woodall Rogers freeway, it will connect Uptown to Downtown. But Downtown is being revitilized itself. They are just getting started.

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According to Harwood's updated website (http://www.harwooddallas.com/masterplan.php?b2=_sel) here is the latest round of upcoming projects in Uptown (with land left over for future projects). Only Saint Ann Court has commenced construction, so far.

big_pic_stann_1.jpg

Saint Ann Court

* Completion Fall 2009

Offices: 314,279 sq ft

Height: 333 ft 6 in

Floors: 26 (4 exclusive penthouse office floors (23, 24, 25 & 26), 10 typical office floors, 11 parking levels, 1 lobby level,

no 13th floor)

Typical floor: 25,200 sq ft

Floor to ceiling height: 9 ft 6 in for typical office floors and up to 20 ft for penthouse levels

LEED certified

Parking ratio: 2.9: 1,000 all enclosed in garage

VIP and valet parking, ample visitor spaces and motor court

Tenants

* Amegy Bank

* Erasmus Advisors

* McGuire, Craddock & Strother

* Aldus Equity

* Harwood International

Amenities

* On-A-Good-DayT garden lounge and bar

* Saint Ann Caf

Edited by njjeppson

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Given its density and proximity, I believe that this area will eventually be considered simply an extension of downtown Dallas. Uptown should be the "mid-density" McKinney Ave/State-Thomas/West village area north of Downtown

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http://www.globest.com/news/1129_1129/dallas/169639-1.html

Granite, Gables Dig Into $200M Uptown Towers

By Connie Gore

ALLAS-Officially ringing the starting bell, Granite Properties and Gables Residential Trust are under way with a $200-million, two-tower project in Uptown. The double play will come on line in 2010.

Economic concerns sweeping the nation have been taken into consideration, but the long-term outlook is driving the development partners to forge ahead with confidence on the 2.14-acre project at 1717 McKinney St. and 1700 Cedar Springs Rd., according to Greg Fuller, COO of Dallas-based Granite Properties. "You really have to have a five-year horizon window. There definitely are going to be areas that see economic downturn, but real estate fundamentals in that area [uptown] are not going to go away," he tells GlobeSt.com. "You've got to look long term, past this rocky bubble. Great real estate in great locations will always survive in good times or bad."

The class AA office tower is a 19-story design, with 361,524 sf of rentable LEED Silver-certified space. It will sit on top of six levels of parking and retail, with a one-acre "amenity" deck that connects to its neighbor, a 26-story residential tower with 292 units, also being designed for LEED certification. It will have 20 residential floors and six floors of parking and retail. The towers will have 15,000 sf of street-level retail and restaurant space plus room for a bank with drive-through lanes.

Granite will own its tower and the Atlanta-based Gables will own its tower too, with the land tract secured by condominium interests, according to Fuller. "We decided to develop as one for economies of scale," he explains. "We are getting a 7% to 10% reduction in pricing than if we had built them separately." Leading Gables' project is its senior vice president Doug Chesnut.

...

The office tower's skin will be outfitted with thousands of LEDs and designed for color changes. "At 22 stories tall and 38 feet wide, the effect when the building is lighted each night will be hard to miss," says Fuller, whose company was named developer of the year by NAIOP's North Texas chapter.

Good Fulton & Farrell Inc. of Dallas designed the entire project. TBG Partners of Austin is the landscape architect. Austin Commercial Inc.'s local team is the general contractor.

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I was in Dallas this past week for work, and being a single 23 year old, I must say that I was extremely impressed with Uptown. It really is dense, urban, and walkable. Lots of neat cafes, bars, etc. Seems like a cool place to live.

The closest thing I see to this in Houston is Midtown, but without the bums, rundown shopping centers, and retail banks. Midtown is making some strides, though, and hopefully there will be more ambitious projects that can relate to Uptown Dallas.

As a Houstonian who usually rags on Dallas, I went in with an objective view. And in the end I realized that I would love to go back and spend more time there.

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Dallas is very impressive, especially those new Towers going up in Uptown. I hope they can finish cleaning up Midtown Houston so it starts to see a boom of newer skyscrapers. The old ugly ones such as Central Square building and the Vacant Old Days Inn are not helping for the appearance of Houston. I wish they would knock those buildings down if they're not going to try to rejuvenate it.

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Dallas is very impressive, especially those new Towers going up in Uptown. I hope they can finish cleaning up Midtown Houston so it starts to see a boom of newer skyscrapers. The old ugly ones such as Central Square building and the Vacant Old Days Inn are not helping for the appearance of Houston. I wish they would knock those buildings down if they're not going to try to rejuvenate it.

I agree. Houston has just as much construction going on, including high rise living, but it's just scattered all over the city. Dallas has it all happening in Uptown. I guess there are pros and cons for that, but I am envious of a truly urban area in the city.

Midtown just has so many obstacles. The Greyhound Bus Station, the Central Square abandoned highrise (that seems to attract homeless in drug dealers), the empty lots around the Red Line....the list goes on.

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I'd like to see them trench the freeway and have to demolish the Greyhound bus station to do it!

roadrunner is right, Houston's construction is spread out. When I think about it, there is a lot more going on than I think about, but since it's not concentrated, it doesn't seem as much. There will be something built in Musuem District, then something in Westchase, then Uptown, then Downtown, then TMC, then someplace random.

Oh, and back on topic, I drove through Dallas a few weeks ago, and their Uptown is much more impressive than it seems from just looking at the pics here.

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I had the same experience in Dallas about a month ago... my fiance and I stayed with one of her friends in a Post residential/retail apartment in Uptown and walked to everything. I left very impressed with what Dallas has going on... albeit a little curious as to how the hell all those million-dollar condos are going to be moved. I think it will be decades before sprawling H-town has anything similar.

Of course, beyond DT, Uptown and Highland Park there is really nothing else in Dallas. Houston really is an entirely different animal, so comparisons are difficult.

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Did you say Highland Park? Isn't that place just like River Oaks?

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Of course, beyond DT, Uptown and Highland Park there is really nothing else in Dallas. Houston really is an entirely different animal, so comparisons are difficult.

Look at the last page of Grubb & Ellis' 4Q 2007 office report. Less than half of new office construction in the DFW area is occuring in these areas that you mention.

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Look at the last page of Grubb & Ellis' 4Q 2007 office report. Less than half of new office construction in the DFW area is occuring in these areas that you mention.

Well, I was talking about DALLAS... not Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex. I was comparing the city of HOUSTON, to the city of DALLAS. The report you site (looking at the entire DFW metroplex market) actually reinforces the point I was trying to make about the city of DALLAS (not DFW) if you read it:

Not surprisingly, the

suburbs fueled the absorption growth with West Plano/Frisco and LBJ

Freeway at the top. Conversely, the Dallas Central Business District (CBD)

experienced a challenging final quarter of the year. As Hunt Oil Company

filled its new global headquarters facility, a 325,000 square foot block of

space in the nearby Fountain Place went dark.

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Did you say Highland Park? Isn't that place just like River Oaks?

On this thread someone told me that Preston Hollow is a better comparison to River Oaks; Preston Hollow is a neighborhood within Dallas while the Park Cities are independent municipalities. Also most of Highland Park, all of University Park, and a smidgen of Dallas are in Highland Park ISD.

On the other hand most Preston Hollow people send their kids to private schools. River Oaks has many in private school, but this is the same neighborhood that asked for (and got!) its neighborhood public elementary school back in the mid-1990s: http://www.houstonpress.com/Issues/1995-04.../news_full.html

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Well, I was talking about DALLAS... not Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex. I was comparing the city of HOUSTON, to the city of DALLAS.

Oh, well if we're talking about municipalities, then Dallas and Houston are oranges and apples. And unless you happen to be disussing matters of public policy, municipalities are effectively irrelevent where comparisons of economic activity are concerned.

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Oh, well if we're talking about municipalities, then Dallas and Houston are oranges and apples. And unless you happen to be disussing matters of public policy, municipalities are effectively irrelevent where comparisons of economic activity are concerned.

Well he did say "Houston really is an entirely different animal, so comparisons are difficult"

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Well he did say "Houston really is an entirely different animal, so comparisons are difficult"

Yeah, I need to pay closer attention.

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Given its density and proximity, I believe that this area will eventually be considered simply an extension of downtown Dallas. Uptown should be the "mid-density" McKinney Ave/State-Thomas/West village area north of Downtown

Uptown will always be Uptown, and Downtown will always be Downtown. The street grid, usage, and most importantly, the legal definition of the two areas will ensure that they remain separate entities, even if the line between the two manages to blur. Downtown is a municipally defined area, known as the CBD. Its zoning, parking and setback requirements are different from Uptown. While this distinction may mean little to casual observers, it is huge to those who buy, sell and develop commercial property. Even if the city managed to take out Woodall Rogers, the two areas would remain distinct and separate, despite attempts by some to impart some of Uptown's success onto Downtown.

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The uptown area of Dallas has matured into a much more stable area for development. This will aid the downtown development in the future, and in some respects already has. Developers have been approaching the uptown area knowing that some sites need to be redeveloped into something more profitable. We've seen some sites that have (fully occupied) been purchased for redevelopment into something else with higher density. Gables has a couple of sites underconsideration, and Harwood has done zoning with a revised planned development submitted to the city not too long ago. One thing that keeps developments in check in this area are the landscape requirements and FAR (floor area ratio). Though, I think the landscaping needs to be revised to allow for more paved sidewalks and less landscaping to promote ease of pedestrian traffic. There are only a couple of empty lots left in the uptown area, and with that said developers are already putting their proposals together to fill in the lots between Victory and uptown. The one area that needs to get off its high horse is the West Village area. There several lots that remain undeveloped mainly due to the land cost and what is required to make the development profitable. The Hank Haney block was to be redeveloped already, but Trammel Crow has stalled or abandoned that project altogether. Which is really sad because of the the success of West Village shopping, and the immediate adjacency to the City Place Dart station. As far as downtown we have seen a good number of high profile companies relocate from the burbs to downtown, and a couple relocations of firms from out of state to downtown Dallas. With that said we have seen some firms leave downtown for cheaper rent in the burbs. But downtown will get there, I'm confident of that. The Davis building and the Power and Light complex remain strong with a high occupancy, Republic is currently 75 - 80 percent leased less than a year of being open (one of my firm's project), and the same has been said for Mosaic. Main street has a different feel then it did 5 years ago. Its alive with moderate street activity in the evenings of restuarant goers, mercantile (with some 400 plus residences) is about to open, a new boutique hotel designed by Tihany out of NYC is about to open in a couple of weeks, the Charlie Palmer restuarant is going strong, and the Dallas Fish Market restaurant with its quiet opening a couple months ago is doing very well.

Edited by slfunk

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Uptown will always be Uptown, and Downtown will always be Downtown. The street grid, usage, and most importantly, the legal definition of the two areas will ensure that they remain separate entities, even if the line between the two manages to blur. Downtown is a municipally defined area, known as the CBD. Its zoning, parking and setback requirements are different from Uptown. While this distinction may mean little to casual observers, it is huge to those who buy, sell and develop commercial property. Even if the city managed to take out Woodall Rogers, the two areas would remain distinct and separate, despite attempts by some to impart some of Uptown's success onto Downtown.

I agree - especially from an investor's standpoint, the "Uptown" area is very hot - clearly ground zero for Central Dallas real estate. Meanwhile as "Downtown" continues its attempted comeback, its current tenants (law firms, etc) keep announcing their moves to brand new "uptown towers".

My point is that relative to the entire DFW metro area, the distinction between uptown and downtown is mostly irrelevant. Despite which side of Woodall Rodgers, a business in Central Dallas is not in the suburban areas/developments such as Addison, Legacy, Las Colinas, etc. All of the central city will likely be considered "downtown" eventually

Edited by TxDave

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cimg0538ji4.jpg

From here.

I google mapped this location which is 1700 Pacific, per the original link. It sent me downtown. Where is "Uptown" in relation to downtown?

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I google mapped this location which is 1700 Pacific, per the original link. It sent me downtown. Where is "Uptown" in relation to downtown?

Directly north, separated by the Woodall-Rogers freeway.

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I agree. Houston has just as much construction going on, including high rise living, but it's just scattered all over the city. Dallas has it all happening in Uptown. I guess there are pros and cons for that, but I am envious of a truly urban area in the city.

Midtown just has so many obstacles. The Greyhound Bus Station, the Central Square abandoned highrise (that seems to attract homeless in drug dealers), the empty lots around the Red Line....the list goes on.

With 4 billion in TOD (Transit Oriented Development) already planned (most in the nation) look for Las Colinas to steal Uptowns' thunder in the next five years.

http://www.dart.org/about/inmotion/spring08/3.htm

Irving officials said plans for live-work-play, mixed-use projects surrounding DART Orange Line rail stations now top $4 billion in private investment

Figure this number will increase the closer that DART lightrail becomes a reality there. In fact, a good reason for developers to be hesitant today in investing in Uptown is the potential for better investment opportunity in Las Colinas in the near future.

During its last construction phase, the amount of development added to Las Colinas supercedes all the total development in Uptown. In other words, expect Las Colinas to once gain add the equivalent of another uptown during its next phase of development.

One should also add the rotten politics in Central Dallas as another huge factor in why one should prefer investing in Las Colinas. It is a volcano of simmering social strife just waiting to erupt into political fire and brimstone. e.g. Industrial Boulevard name change.

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At first, I thought DART should have its charter revoked, or at a minimum, its internet priveleges, for writing this...

Like the vibrant color of the sun, DART's Orange Line will bring new energy, vitality and change to the region with links to important business centers, medical facilities, higher education, exciting new transit villages and the world

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Oh man that was great. :lol:

I love the airport one. DFW is neither the third busiest in the world OR nation.

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Oh man that was great. :lol:

I love the airport one. DFW is neither the third busiest in the world OR nation.

Here is my suspicions. I figure the Victory development in Uptown is about to throw in the towel capitulating to the northern part of the area around the new Dallas Art's District as the next significant expansion of the business district. The Victory development has already altered the vision of itself once and this latest doubt might spell its doom. There just isn't enough growth in DFW to keep development spread out along all parts north of downtown Dallas especially when one considers that growth is about to kick in in Las Colinas. So, development will probably narrow along the Art's District and Museum Tower while the Victory and Harwood developments languish. Look at the stalled Reunion development west of downtown as an example of what could happen to Victory.

The DFW office market has been in the state of flux for about ten years with downtown falling as the premier business district. Right now the little business district of Preston Center, 3 million square feet of space, has that distinction because of its prime location and limited space to construct new buildings.

I think downtown Dallas is handing off the distinction of the premier business district to Las Colinas. This transitional process has been taking place over a long period of time now.

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Here is my suspicions. I figure the Victory development in Uptown is about to throw in the towel capitulating to the northern part of the area around the new Dallas Art's District as the next significant expansion of the business district. The Victory development has already altered the vision of itself once and this latest doubt might spell its doom. There just isn't enough growth in DFW to keep development spread out along all parts north of downtown Dallas especially when one considers that growth is about to kick in in Las Colinas. So, development will probably narrow along the Art's District and Museum Tower while the Victory and Harwood developments languish. Look at the stalled Reunion development west of downtown as an example of what could happen to Victory.

The DFW office market has been in the state of flux for about ten years with downtown falling as the premier business district. Right now the little business district of Preston Center, 3 million square feet of space, has that distinction because of its prime location and limited space to construct new buildings.

I think downtown Dallas is handing off the distinction of the premier business district to Las Colinas. This transitional process has been taking place over a long period of time now.

Man, what's the deal with the promotion of Las Colinas?

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Man, what's the deal with the promotion of Las Colinas?

Promotion? Las Colinas promotes itself. Just letting Houston know who its true competition is in my opinion. Downtown Dallas is too far off to the side. Start looking at the heart of the region. Where is it? Where is the heart of the DFW population? It is around DFW airport. Where is the heart of the freeway infrastructure in DFW? It is around DFW airport. How does Houston compete with Las Colinas? Companies don't move to Greenspoint Mall and give IAH as the reason they do so. Las Colinas is taking the prestige distinction away from Central Dallas as it is gaining the designation in the Southwest as being the premier business district to base a global headquarters.

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Promotion? Las Colinas promotes itself. Just letting Houston know who its true competition is in my opinion. Downtown Dallas is too far off to the side. Start looking at the heart of the region. Where is it? Where is the heart of the DFW population? It is around DFW airport. Where is the heart of the freeway infrastructure in DFW? It is around DFW airport. How does Houston compete with Las Colinas? Companies don't move to Greenspoint Mall and give IAH as the reason they do so. Las Colinas is taking the prestige distinction away from Central Dallas as it is gaining the designation in the Southwest as being the premier business district to base a global headquarters.

I don't even know how to respond to this. :huh:

Edit: Let's drop this for another thread sometime.

Edited by Gary

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Man, what's the deal with the promotion of Las Colinas?

Agree.... Las Colinas is not all that. Its clean, its new, its shiney, its a suburb located next to DFW. While that is great and serves a purpose to businesses that see that as an asset, it by no means has generated the development that has been all the buzz since the 80's. If it had, Richardson's business parks, Plano's, Addison's and the North Tollway corridor would not have out developed the undeveloped Las Colinas vision in both cycles. You see some of the puzzle pieces missing (like the unfinished sky tram) The lastest big buzz has been some master plans we have done for developers out there working around future DART stations, but that has all but just about come to stand still. Maybe the next cycle. Out of two major development cycles Las Colinas has remained a collection of buildings forming Irving's office park with a hint of residential. It is no uptown, and has a long way to go before it has the assets of uptown / downtown like an Art's district, diversity, etc. To add to that developers (outside of home developers) are more geared towards infill (this according to the Urban Land Institute) for the next cycle. Dart also will have a link to DFW connecting it to downtown...etc.

Edited by slfunk

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this thread being bumped again gave me a laugh again reading las colinas guys post :lol:

the problem with Las Colinas is they lost what vision they had and let it all slip away.....they went from a tall building tramway vision to the low campus sprawl to mixed use to clueless......there is also no major industry like Telcom to wrap around like Richardson managed to pull off

the north burbs were able to steal away the lowrise campus sprawl because of cheaper land cost and the ability to put in larger subdivisions in that would appeal to the people in those lowrise campus buildings

las colinas has never even tried the high rise living (wisely) because people who want that will be downtown and uptown......and there is little appeal for 2-3 story condo wanna be apartment style living mixed in with highrise and campus style buildings especially when for the same cost you could trendy yourself right into uptown and or buy a McMansion out in the northern sprawl....and dallas has trendy stamped on its forehead

las colinas the place with no vision that time keeps passing by

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H. Ross Perot gave Dallas a severe black eye and ruined it's reputation forever when he lost his bid for the presidency back in 1995. Now when people think of Dallas they think about losers and people who shop at walmart. The Dallas office market is over built. I read on the internet that Dallas is going to suffer through a major economic depression from which it will never recover because there are too many unneeded buildings going up. Especially in uptown. There is doubt that the Mandarin will ever get built there. I also read that the Arlington superbowl will be a failure because it is so far out of town and people visiting there will have to drive too far in the freezing rain. This will ruin Dallas' image on a national level and there will never be another large national event in the DFW metro again. I read that on the internet too. Dallas is jealous of Houston.

 

Oh my god...

 

Reading this actually made me lol. 

This guy did hard drugs for sure. 

I know it's old but I just joined this forum and this thread was interesting enough to read old posts. 

Edited by texan41
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Oh my god...

 

Reading this actually made me lol. 

This guy did hard drugs for sure. 

I know it's old but I just joined this forum and this thread was interesting enough to read old posts. 

The same people are still on here making the same insane predictions. Keep that in mind when reading this forum.

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The same people are still on here making the same insane predictions. Keep that in mind when reading this forum.

 

I will. 

Some people really want Dallas to fail. 

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With the last three sentences it makes it seem like Mister X was being sarcastic.

 

I don't think so. He said many other things and in other threads that are simply based on a dislike of Dallas. 

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Either way have any of you guys been up here recently? 

Uptown is dense as heck now. It seems like some development is finally spilling over to the east side (Deep Ellum) and Oak Cliff. 

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Either way have any of you guys been up here recently? 

Uptown is dense as heck now. It seems like some development is finally spilling over to the east side (Deep Ellum) and Oak Cliff. 

 

Yea, I've been putting as much as I could on the development thread. Check it out. Feel free to add to it.

 

The Deep Ellum Towers are already U/C so I've heard. I predict more in the future.

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Yea, I've been putting as much as I could on the development thread. Check it out. Feel free to add to it.

 

The Deep Ellum Towers are already U/C so I've heard. I predict more in the future.

 

 

Deep Ellum is gonna be a lot different in a few years after a few more projects. I just don't like the developments targeting only moneyed people. 

Edited by texan41
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Agreed I don't want D Ellum turning into another trust fund baby douchebag haven. :lol:  

I like how the new towers sort of look like they blend into DE. Nothing wrong with having some lower cost towers for more of us non-millionaires. We don't need golden toilets.

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Deep Ellum is gonna be a lot different in a few years after a few more projects. I just don't like the developments targeting only moneyed people. 

Rent is determined by supply and demand. The new development in Deep Ellum is only being done because market rents are already high - the developers have projected that market rent is high enough to make a profit. Additional supply coming online will LOWER rents.

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Rent is determined by supply and demand. The new development in Deep Ellum is only being done because market rents are already high - the developers have projected that market rent is high enough to make a profit. Additional supply coming online will LOWER rents.

 

 

Didn't know that. Changes my viewpoint entirely. 

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I will. 

Some people really want Dallas to fail. 

 

Just take their comments with a load of salt.  Just like another posted earlier, those guys you are referencing are still out there and making statements with no merit.  Their predictions have not transpired and those same predictors just go against anything good happening in Dallas.  I wish they were just joking, but usually you only joke about something once or twice.  You'll figure out who the repeat offenders are and you'll notice the moderators do not reign them in.  For that reason, I come on here only once in a while. 

 

I put their comments in the same category as a poster on the Dallas forum who campaigned hard that a certain project next to his condo tower (in uptown) would and could never be built.  But today the building is starting to open including a new steak house at its base.

 

Edited by slfunk
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