Shell Energy Stadium

[TheNiche]

Good question....I should go look that up. I'd hate to think that every municipality in the same situation keeps making the same mistake, over and over.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that every municipality in the same situation that has a major league sports team has at some point granted public funds to it. That doesn't necessarily mean that every municipality in the same situation has made the same mistake.

[TheNiche]

How do you feel about, say a big company wanting to build a big distribution center in the area that will add X number of jobs, adding X number of dollars to the economy, and X dollars of extra property tax value, but they need the city to improve access, add stop lights, improve the utility infranstructure, or else they will have to build elsewhere outside the city?

Not good. Do you realize what happens in the long run as a result of that kind of local corporate welfare? A distribution center that should've gone in Houston to minimize transportation costs goes to San Antonio, a one that should've gone to San Antonio goes to Dallas, and one that should've gone in Dallas goes to Houston.

Every city is forced to compete amongst themselves using tax dollars, and while most of the money will ultimately be recaptured by each community (if not the original set of taxpayers that financed the outlay), it places factors of production in less efficient locales, causing diminished productivity such that it is a burden on the whole of the economy.

In most cases, I like giving political powers to localities; out of practicality, I think that this is one that ought to be taken away.

[crunchtastic]

How do you feel about, say a big company wanting to build a big distribution center in the area that will add X number of jobs, adding X number of dollars to the economy, and X dollars of extra property tax value, but they need the city to improve access, add stop lights, improve the utility infranstructure, or else they will have to build elsewhere outside the city?

Do you work for Wal-Mart? Kidding.

I would not think much differently. It's public money for private profits. Show me the data where the 'public' in that equation comes out ahead.

Back to the context of sports stadiums.....if you are suggesting that the city is giving up new jobs, etc by not funding the stadium, you would be wrong.

Thanks for the transition.....btw. A very cursory google turns up quite a bit of academic research from the past decade that refutes most every argument the sports teams throw out trying to get taxpayer funding.

This is a clearing house of various academic abstracts. The summaries indicate a mixed bad but the majority refuting the idea that sports teams create economic growth, etc.

http://studentwebs.coloradocollege.edu/~m_...e.htm#superbowl

More academics:

http://www.news.uiuc.edu/news/04/1117stadiums.html

Yet more pointy-headed academia, but this time from the law dept. Oh, and it says the SBC park in San Francisco is the only recent all-privately funded stadium.

http://iblsjournal.typepad.com/illinois_bu...people_hav.html

Edited November 20, 2007 by crunchtastic

[RedScare]

Gillette Stadium in Foxboro was 100% privately funded, though the government paid for some infrastructure improvements.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Maybe we should examine what merits a team of "deserving" a stadium.

Your argument is they have a good presence in the community, etc; everything related to that. They've been here two years and won two championships. What happens when they stink? Will they have the same presence and support, and still "deserve" that stadium?

To me, a team "deserves" funding for a stadium if the team and/or the stadium will give back positive things to the community. In other words, a good investment. There's no reason to give money away to a team if there is no interest in the team, the sport, or the area that they're trying to develop, and it looks like Dynamo indeed have become a team whose fanbase may be limitless due to the popularity of their sport and the popularity of the team's concept of engaging with the fans in ways that other millionaire-players aren't able to do.

A team doesn't "deserve" a stadium to me when they say stupid ____ like "we expect the city to invest over $100 Million into our stadium, or else we're moving to another market," forcing the city to either sign in to a bad business deal, or lose the team that's represented the city for over 20 years.

Do they do pretty well in corporate sells?

I honestly don't know. It was reported that jersey sales are up 700% from last year (up 300% if you don't count Beckham's jersey). I would also imagine that Dynamo merchandise is much higher in sales from last year, and they sold out at 30,000 for the last three games. It proves that there's a lot of potential for the team $$$ wise if the league keeps up their current trends.

Also, I think so long as the fans enjoy themselves at Dynamo games, it won't matter anymore what their record is. It's obviously more fun when they win than when they lose, but the difference between Dynamo and the other sports team' fanbase is that the Dynamo fans are much more engaged into the game and create an atmosphere for 90 straight minutes, whereas the other teams depend more on a soundtrack from the speakers.

[lockmat]

Did anyone get a chance to go to the rally? I guess there was no surprise stadium annoucement.

[tigereye]

Did anyone get a chance to go to the rally? I guess there was no surprise stadium annoucement.

No surprises BUT.....

When you have 2,000+ chanting " where's our stadium?" and a city council member (Adrian Garcia) loudly proclaiming on stage, "Lets make it (a stadium) happen!" l'd say things look very good this deal is signed off before Christmas. Also IIRC, no city council member nor the mayor have voiced opposition to this project. Me think we are only days (maybe weeks) away from a done deal....

[lockmat]

No surprises BUT.....

When you have 2,000+ chanting " where's our stadium?" and a city council member (Adrian Garcia) loudly proclaiming on stage, "Lets make it (a stadium) happen!" l'd say things look very good this deal is signed off before Christmas. Also IIRC, no city council member nor the mayor have voiced opposition to this project. Me think we are only days (maybe weeks) away from a done deal....

That'd be a cool Christmas present.

[MidtownCoog]

2,000 + chanting "where's our stadium"?

What a bunch of ingrates.

[RedScare]

2,000 + chanting "where's our stadium"?

What a bunch of ingrates.

Would you rather have 3 billionaires chanting, "Where's our stadium?"

[MidtownCoog]

Well no. We need our money back. The ROI for our three new palaces has been dismal.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Would you rather have 3 billionaires chanting, "Where's our stadium?"

ROFLOL!!!!

[KinkaidAlum]

I love the Dynamo. I really like professional soccer too.

That said, this is just another example of corporate welfare.

I really wish UH and the Dyanmo would have worked together to make Robertson Stadium work. It would be a win-win for everyone. I love that old stadium. The location is great, rail is coming, sitelines are really nice, and it's been proven over the last few weeks that the Dynamo could use a 31,000 seat stadium (if not larger).

[lockmat]

I love the Dynamo. I really like professional soccer too.

That said, this is just another example of corporate welfare.

I really wish UH and the Dyanmo would have worked together to make Robertson Stadium work. It would be a win-win for everyone. I love that old stadium. The location is great, rail is coming, sitelines are really nice, and it's been proven over the last few weeks that the Dynamo could use a 31,000 seat stadium (if not larger).

I saw highlights of some of their games at Robertson. It looked horrible w/ cougar/football stuff painted all over the field. But hey, I'm sure it saves a ton of money compared to building a brand new one.

[MidtownCoog]

Some of y'all act like soccer is a real sport.

[lockmat]

Some of y'all act like soccer is a real sport.

lol. I used to think the same way. Actually, I used to just say it was not a sport at all. I'm not completely sold on it just yet, but I'm coming around. I just don't wanna become so ridiculously PC or corporate like Jim Rome is w/ soccer and nascar.

I started coming around once I saw it in person during college.

Sweet new avatar by the way. Where'd you get it?

Edited November 21, 2007 by lockmat

[713 To 214]

I really wish UH and the Dyanmo would have worked together to make Robertson Stadium work. It would be a win-win for everyone

What?. . .and pass up a golden opportunity to build yet another sports stadium in Houston. How dare you think such a thing. Are you trying to destroy Houston's professional sports stadium reputation?

[Trae]

Some of y'all act like soccer is a real sport.

It is to the world.

And Kinkaid Alum, the new stadium would be near a light rail line and station, too, so there is no problem with location.

[MidtownCoog]

CoogFans.com says (rumor?) the new Dynaho stadium will be 80% private money.

[Houston19514]

hmm let's see. the toyota center garage is losing 1.5 million/month.

There you go again, Musicman. Any chance you have a source for that claim?

According to the report done by ABC13:

"You know how much money the Toyota garage has lost since it opened in 2003? We found it lost $1.2 million."

That's right, a total of $1.2 million over the entire 4-year life of the garage, not the $1.5 million per month you would have us believe (which would have added up to $72 million over the 4-year life). What the heck, you were only off by a factor of 60. Well done.

;-)

[musicman]

That's right, a total of $1.2 million over the entire 4-year life of the garage, not the $1.5 million per month you would have us believe (which would have added up to $72 million over the 4-year life). What the heck, you were only off by a factor of 60. Well done.

;-)

yep i stand corrected... however losing more than a million on a property doesn't sound economically advantageous for the taxpayer....particularly when many of the same people who made this "deal" are involved in the proposed stadium. previous story

Edited November 22, 2007 by musicman

[Jax]

Anybody know why the garage is losing money? And is this problem preventable with future garages, or do you think any garage built at a sports venue will lose this kind of money?

[lockmat]

Anybody know why the garage is losing money? And is this problem preventable with future garages, or do you think any garage built at a sports venue will lose this kind of money?

For one, I wonder if they only use it for Toyota Center events? Even if they did open it to the public, who's job is close enough to use it?

[Houston19514]

For one, I wonder if they only use it for Toyota Center events? Even if they did open it to the public, who's job is close enough to use it?

That's exactly the problem. It is open to the public. But it's not close to much of anything besides Toyota Center.

[DJ V Lawrence]

That's exactly the problem. It is open to the public. But it's not close to much of anything besides Toyota Center.

Perhaps part of the mistake there was the fact that the Rockets and City of Houston were assuming that Toyota Center would spur development directly around the stadium (the parking garage side). It was just a sales pitch, but nothing more.

The possible Dynamo stadium location would be a great one to spur a redevelopmental project around it, since there's not much there now directly surrounding it. I'm kinda hoping the city starts planning on ideas on how to build around the stadium and parking lot/tailgate areas shortly after it's approval, and not after the stadium's built.

Edited November 22, 2007 by DJ V Lawrence

[musicman]

Anybody know why the garage is losing money? And is this problem preventable with future garages, or do you think any garage built at a sports venue will lose this kind of money?

it is also used for the hilton. but team mgmt probably gets some guaranteed revenue and since the COH is the one behind the hotel they are coming out on the losing end. lots of "deals" were made on all the new stadia that has to be backed up by the tax payers if hotel/motel revenue/etc doesn't work out as planned.

Edited November 22, 2007 by musicman

[Houston19514]

it is also used for the hilton. but team mgmt probably gets some guaranteed revenue and since the COH is the one behind the hotel they are coming out on the losing end. lots of "deals" were made on all the new stadia that has to be backed up by the tax payers if hotel/motel revenue/etc doesn't work out as planned.

The Hilton has its own garage.

[kyle]

i just want someone to explain to me why the dynamo "deserve" a new stadium, especially with help from the city.

unlike the dynamo, which is a privately owned company, UH is a public institution that educates thousands of houston's children, supplies thousands of graduates to the houston workforce, and injects 3 billion annually into the houston economy.

meanwhile, there has been countless academic research proving that pro sports teams do nothing for their surrounding economies.

but the dynamo Deserve public money for a new stadium, millions of dollars.

somehow though, UH can't even get the city to re-pave cullen blvd...

[Trae]

Well, The Rockets didn't deserve that new stadium.

[DJ V Lawrence]

i just want someone to explain to me why the dynamo "deserve" a new stadium, especially with help from the city.

unlike the dynamo, which is a privately owned company, UH is a public institution that educates thousands of houston's children, supplies thousands of graduates to the houston workforce, and injects 3 billion annually into the houston economy.

meanwhile, there has been countless academic research proving that pro sports teams do nothing for their surrounding economies.

but the dynamo Deserve public money for a new stadium, millions of dollars.

somehow though, UH can't even get the city to re-pave cullen blvd...

By "deserve", it would mean a good investment for both the city and the team. That depends on what kind of deal is being made, how much is being invested into the project, and how much both sides expect to get out of it. If all sounds fit, it's a good deal. If not, obviously the deal isn't deserving of public funding.

It doesn't take any research to see what a stadium can and can't do though. If it spurs development around it, if the team has strong support and gives the community good morale, and if the facility helps to give the city more PR and/or tourists, it's a positive deal. It's no different from any other form of entertainment for the city. But if the team or whoever is asking for an unreasonable amount of money (like $60 Million or more), and it sounds more like a gamble for the city to get it's money back without raising taxes, then the deal is shady to me.

As for UH, that's between UH and Houston. If UH weren't able to strike a deal for something on their campus, why should any business outside UH be effected by it?