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Discovery Green parking will actually be closer than the far reaches of the surface lot. It will hold 630 vehicles. Add that to the Harris County parking garage, a block northwest of MMP, currently being expanded to 2,000 capacity from 1,200, and you have 1,430 new parking spaces within 3 blocks of MMP. That is probably close to or exceeding the capacity of the surface lots east of 59. A 2 or 3 story garage between MMP and 59 could easily handle the lost parking east of MMP, as well as serve a soccer stadium on the surface lots.

As a bonus, the City of Houston apparently owns those 6 blocks.

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Discovery Green parking will actually be closer than the far reaches of the surface lot. It will hold 630 vehicles. Add that to the Harris County parking garage, a block northwest of MMP, currently being expanded to 2,000 capacity from 1,200, and you have 1,430 new parking spaces within 3 blocks of MMP. That is probably close to or exceeding the capacity of the surface lots east of 59. A 2 or 3 story garage between MMP and 59 could easily handle the lost parking east of MMP, as well as serve a soccer stadium on the surface lots.

As a bonus, the City of Houston apparently owns those 6 blocks.

That'd be better for Downtown too, seeing that there would be much more pedestrian activity within that condensed area. Traffic would be high there, but that's part of the reason why they built two stadiums downtown anyway.

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Hmm...let me look at the plans here on my desk. Says here, 22,565.

:lol:

All jokes aside, it's really a toss-up. There's no stadium in MLS smaller than 20K for sure, and the largest SSS (Soccer Specific Stadium) will be for DC United and will be an expandable 27,000. San Jose's about to get a team again, and it will be either 25-34,000 seats depending on the size of the soccer or football match there (they'll share with San Jose State.) Toronto is also around 20,000 seats, but they already expect to expand because their season tickets are already sold out.

Houston's a different case from everyone because we'd have the best central location in MLS, directly across from Downtown. That, mixed with the amount of fans that would go to a quality stadium, the fact that our team is so good, and the high attendances expected, means the stadium could be anywhere from 25-35,000 seats reasonably to start off with.

Also keep in mind that the team is owned by AEG Entertainment, who's music tours primarily go to Toyota Center. Should an NHL team go there, perhaps the stadium would double up as the primary Downtown major concert venue, and wouldn't have to double up as a high school field as it would in the suburbs.

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  • 4 weeks later...

My source has told me that Worthem is out, the warehouse district is out and that the current proposal being worked is a site at the Northeast corner of US 59 and Beltway 8 on the south side. There used to be a landfill there years ago that had a golf course built on top of it that is now closed. The City of West University owns part of it and I think Bellaire owns part of it. Thats the latest on the new stadium I have heard. The warehouse district is way to expensive and Worthem is going to remain a golf course.

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yeah, the warehouse district would have been perfect. lets keep our fingers crossed, other then the post above i haven't heard anywhere else that location is off the table.

what happened to Delmar? is that still an option?

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agreed Delmar is ideal.

why should it not be as far out as highway 6 or the beltway? because they do get smaller crowds, and attendance will get even smaller if the stadium is that far out. i know i'll go to less games, as well as people in clear lake, the woodlands, east end, etc. Dynamo games get a wide variety of spectators from all over the city, so its needs to be accessible.

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Despite stereotypical assertions to the contrary, soccer's demographics are squarely in the suburbs. Among youth demographics, soccer is played by more kids than baseball, football and basketball combined. These youth are primarily located in the suburbs. Though many of us would like to see a centrally located stadium, a suburban location would be closer to the fanbase.

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Though many of us would like to see a centrally located stadium, a suburban location would be closer to the fanbase.

I agree, but maybe I am bias since I believe stadiums are the worse "infill" ever. The stadiums and convention center do just as much damage as 59 sitting there in my opinion as far as the community being cut off.

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These youth are primarily located in the suburbs. Though many of us would like to see a centrally located stadium, a suburban location would be closer to the fanbase.

so which suburb has the biggest fanbase? doesn't it make sense to have it centrally located from all of the supposed fan-filled suburbs so parents don't have to drive from the woodlands all the way to sugar land? growing up in clear lake, i can tell you that i would have been to about 1/10th as many Astros games if the Dome were in Katy.

have you been to any games? i understand and agree with your statistic on who plays soccer, but looking at the demographic at Robertson last year from what i saw, there were as many adults without children as families - probably more. and they didn't look like they were from the burbs to me, but i can't back that up.

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Despite stereotypical assertions to the contrary, soccer's demographics are squarely in the suburbs. Among youth demographics, soccer is played by more kids than baseball, football and basketball combined. These youth are primarily located in the suburbs.

Playing soccer doesn't necessarily translate into an audience for soccer. Anyone here have demographics on Dynamo game attendees? Anecdotes?

Though many of us would like to see a centrally located stadium, a suburban location would be closer to the fanbase.

What are the cartesian coordinates derived from the mean of all suburban residents of the Houston area by latitude and longitude?

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Despite stereotypical assertions to the contrary, soccer's demographics are squarely in the suburbs. Among youth demographics, soccer is played by more kids than baseball, football and basketball combined. These youth are primarily located in the suburbs. Though many of us would like to see a centrally located stadium, a suburban location would be closer to the fanbase.

Amazing that soccer isn't the most popular sport in America, then. I guess since it is so cheap to build soccer fields and supplies, that it is more popular. Also, it costs less for parents. I use to play in FFPS when I was little. I think I have a photo of me in my uniform somewhere.

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Seems like soccer appeals to little kids in America and when they get older they switch their loyalties to football.

I wish they would build the soccer stadium somewhere close to a proposed rail line. Just in case Houston ever gets considered for the olympics again, they can push the idea that all the venues are easily accessible to rail.

Edited by Mister X
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What are the cartesian coordinates derived from the mean of all suburban residents of the Houston area by latitude and longitude?

2d1ut0k.gif

It would appear that the latest possible site choice is no geographical fluke. The likely 3 largest suburban masses of Sugarland, Pearland and the 290/Cypress corridor are all reasonably close by suburban standards as is the massive latin population nearby, plus most of our growth is occuring in the southern and western suburbs, so future fans within the attendance zone are assured. The Woodlands, Kingwood, Spring and Baytown are just out of luck.

And, as soccer is an international sport, it could be argued that there is much more international diversity within a 10-15 mile radius of that spot than anything near Downtown.

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Despite stereotypical assertions to the contrary, soccer's demographics are squarely in the suburbs.

Let's go with that. Would you debate the fact that Houston as a whole is a suburb-built city? In other words, most homes/neighborhoods here are not urban-built (like Downtown, Midtown, or parts of Uptown)? Also, would you also agree that many soccer fans reside within Houston city limits, but are not in one spot, but are spread through different areas of the city/county?

If that's the case, how would building a stadium in one suburb work when it's difficult for Houstonians and other suburbs to access? And if Dynamo want to grow, how would building in Pearland, Sugarland, or Webster help build their fanbase more than Downtown Houston? And how could anyone deny that the MLS's fanbase is growing and about to take off in 2007 with their new international media outlets and international signings?

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Let's go with that. Would you debate the fact that Houston as a whole is a suburb-built city? In other words, most homes/neighborhoods here are not urban-built (like Downtown, Midtown, or parts of Uptown)? Also, would you also agree that many soccer fans reside within Houston city limits, but are not in one spot, but are spread through different areas of the city/county?

If that's the case, how would building a stadium in one suburb work when it's difficult for Houstonians and other suburbs to access? And if Dynamo want to grow, how would building in Pearland, Sugarland, or Webster help build their fanbase more than Downtown Houston? And how could anyone deny that the MLS's fanbase is growing and about to take off in 2007 with their new international media outlets and international signings?

I would suggest that virtually all American cities are suburb built, Houston merely being the poster child. Some have denser cores, but all cities have suburban sprawl.

As for the Dynamo, inner loop land is extremely expensive. If the choices are less expensive suburban land or nothing, you go to the burbs. In that vein, you attempt to locate where the majority of your fanbase resides, and/or where the most potential fanbase resides. Since the fastest growing area of the Houston metro is the western fringe, a location on a major highway on the west side would make sense. It doesn't have to be the perfect location for EVERY Houstonian, merely enough of them to fill the stadium. As such, a location along the West Belt would seem to do well. Delmar would also work, though I suspect that the Dynamo does not desire a deal with HISD. Pearland seems the least attractive. The Woodlands is off the map.

As for your constant pronouncements that the fanbase is about to "take off", and that Houston needs the biggest stadium in the MSL, I have never seen anything to support your grandiose claims. I believe Houston can do well, but not at the level you envision. I don't believe the Dynamo think so, either. Besides, if the fanbase is going to be that large and that fanatical, why is the location so important? Are you suggesting that the "fanatical" MSL fan is only fanatical if the stadium is within 10 miles of their home? Would they not drive to Beltway 8?

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Playing soccer doesn't necessarily translate into an audience for soccer. Anyone here have demographics on Dynamo game attendees? Anecdotes?

While we're going on perception of Dynamo's fanbase, I would agree with this statement. From what I saw in the stands at Robertson, and those who drove to Frisco for the championship game, most fans are not soccer moms and their kids. Most are adults and most of those are Hispanic. I would put the stadium downtown, Delmar, near East, or BW8 @ 59. If you go all the way out to the burbs you're getting too far out for the "fanbase" to drive.

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While we're going on perception of Dynamo's fanbase, I would agree with this statement. From what I saw in the stands at Robertson, and those who drove to Frisco for the championship game, most fans are not soccer moms and their kids. Most are adults and most of those are Hispanic. I would put the stadium downtown, Delmar, near East, or BW8 @ 59. If you go all the way out to the burbs you're getting too far out for the "fanbase" to drive.

one of the people i know who sponsors the Dynamo lives in league city. he and his wife invite me all the time. fans will do more to support their team than a casual attendee.

Edited by musicman
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While we're going on perception of Dynamo's fanbase, I would agree with this statement. From what I saw in the stands at Robertson, and those who drove to Frisco for the championship game, most fans are not soccer moms and their kids. Most are adults and most of those are Hispanic. I would put the stadium downtown, Delmar, near East, or BW8 @ 59. If you go all the way out to the burbs you're getting too far out for the "fanbase" to drive.

BW8@59 is not in the burbs? that's too far out IMO. i know it would limit the number of games i went to.

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BW8@59 is not in the burbs? that's too far out IMO. i know it would limit the number of games i went to.

if it limits your attendance then you're not a real fan. Real fans do go the extra distance.

Edited by musicman
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How many die-hards does a one year old club have?

i've only been to 3 games but i must say that after the games the team members were willing to take pics with fans as the team was leaving the stadium. i thought that was a great thing to do by the members.

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How many die-hards does a one year old club have?

Didn't you see the 10,000+ Houstonians in Frisco, Texas during the MLS Cup? And how big a splash were the Texans when they beat the Cowboys in their first game (coincidentally the only time in Texans history that they've had a winning record...)

Edited by DJ V Lawrence
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if it limits your attendance then you're not a real fan. Real fans do go the extra distance.

die hard fans go the distance. you can be a real fan, follow the team, and go to some games. every team as fans with varying levels of commitment.

i too was in Frisco last year, and BCS for the CCC quarterfinals last month. i call myself a real fan, but honestly think i'll go to less games if it were way out in the burbs. it would take away from the atmosphere, and i would have a hard time convincing my friends who usually come from clear lake and austin (yes adding 30 minutes to a 2.5 hour drive sunday night would make a difference to them) to go to games, meaning i would go to less games.

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My source has sat in on meetings with the City and Dynamo representatives and while the city is willing to talk putting the land into the mix the team is expected to contribute most if not all of the building costs. Given that the warehouse district is out because much of that area over there is considered to be worth as much as $50 a square foot. That would put the price at $2.2 million an acre. No way the city is going to step up to that. Also in the same area a little farther west in the China Town area the city is in the process of closing an entire block to create a garden in honor of our sister city in China. I never knew Houston had a Chinese sister city but apparently they do. They have already built a Houston garden over there and we are now reciprocating. Might be why the International Festival is doing China this year. Anyway the garden will be on a street in the area. The construction of the garden is why my source was looking into land costs in the area. He has also been looking at alternatives for the property at BW 8 and US 59 for a while when the Dynamo Stadium issue came up and it seemed a natural fit. Lets face it people here are dancing around the issue of who will go to the games and based on what I have seen from the games they have played at Reliant Park between international teams and the feedback I have got from the Dynamo games its apparent that the continuing fan base is and will be Hispanic. Sure the suburban soccer families will attend some games but the diehards will be Hispanic. As a result the discussion on where to put the stadium is wide open since there are Hispanics all over Houston and the surrounding areas while some of the other minority groups tend to be in specific areas. (I'm not saying this is good or bad or forming any opinion just saying it is what it is and the group making the decisions believe this to be true) If you accept this then the location of the stadium is wide open because the expected fan base is all over the place and will come to the games. Given that and a $2 million an acre price for the area near MMP I can guareentee it will not be built there.

sugar land and pearland are both putting in bids.

brerrabbit i'm assuming you can't divulge your source. can you give us any more details of where this info came from?

He works acquiring and building parks for the City of Houston and is a very good friend of mine.

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if it limits your attendance then you're not a real fan. Real fans do go the extra distance.

The idea is to build that die-hard fan-base. It's hard to do that when getting to a team's game/games are inconvenient. The fanbase for soccer in Houston is huge, maybe even the same as that in other sports, but the fanbase for MLS soccer is what's growing and the variable in the issue. And just like any other sport in Houston, attendance can be expected to be higher and more stable in a location centrally located in Houston rather than outside the city.

Regardless of if the stadium does end up in the MMP parking lot or not, I'd really like to see that particular area revitalized, and I think the stadium could be a part of that process. Besides, they earned it so far. If they're able to win tomorrow night in Mexico, Houston Dynamo's going to make history in front of a worldwide audience (If Houston wins the series against Pachuca, they take on Chivas for a spot at Club World Cup).

Also, spending that money would be the best investment the public's made in our sports teams. Think about how much the city or county have spent on football, baseball, and/or basketball stadiums. It's probably 5 or 6 times how much Dynamo would be asking for if all they're asking for is land by MMP. Let's say that's 6 acres. That's less than $14 Million. Did the Astros, Rockets, or Texans ask for less than $20 Million for public money?

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Are you suggesting that you just made up your previous post?

I made a post based upon sense that is common. You then injected uncommon sense (if of questionable validity) into the debate. In order to assure the correctness of my position, I'd like to verify or refute it with facts and figures or at the very least some second-hand observation. You got a problem with having a respected opinion, punk?

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I made a post based upon sense that is common. You then injected uncommon sense (if of questionable validity) into the debate. In order to assure the correctness of my position, I'd like to verify or refute it with facts and figures or at the very least some second-hand observation. You got a problem with having a respected opinion, punk?

It took you an entire day to come up with that weakassed response? :lol:

Actually, I've forgotten what the original post was about.

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My source has sat in on meetings with the City and Dynamo representatives and while the city is willing to talk putting the land into the mix the team is expected to contribute most if not all of the building costs. Given that the warehouse district is out because much of that area over there is considered to be worth as much as $50 a square foot. That would put the price at $2.2 million an acre. No way the city is going to step up to that. Also in the same area a little farther west in the China Town area the city is in the process of closing an entire block to create a garden in honor of our sister city in China. I never knew Houston had a Chinese sister city but apparently they do. They have already built a Houston garden over there and we are now reciprocating. Might be why the International Festival is doing China this year. Anyway the garden will be on a street in the area. The construction of the garden is why my source was looking into land costs in the area.

I looked at that area last year, and although asking prices got outrageous in some cases, the highest sale comp I could find was about $26psf. Perhaps jscarbor can contribute a little since he's active in developing that area.

By the way, is that garden going to be located adjacent to US 59 next to the Lofts at the Ballpark. The East Downtown TIRZ had arranged to purchase that block at some point many years back for a park as part of an agreement to get the Lofts developed. I'm not sure why they haven't developed the park yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if they have just been short of funds the whole time.

There were also a big set of properties being marketed by Cushman & Wakefield that would be my next guess as the place for the park. I'd love to see that! It'd be a nice big one.

It took you an entire day to come up with that weakassed response? :lol:

I don't pay close attention to sports-related threads. Sue me, lawdog!

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My understanding is that the city is going to close one block of a street over there and the garden will take up two city blocks and the rightof way for that one block of street. I don't think its the area you are talking about as it will be farther west on the south side of 59 closer to the China Town area.

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Also, spending that money would be the best investment the public's made in our sports teams. Think about how much the city or county have spent on football, baseball, and/or basketball stadiums. It's probably 5 or 6 times how much Dynamo would be asking for if all they're asking for is land by MMP. Let's say that's 6 acres. That's less than $14 Million. Did the Astros, Rockets, or Texans ask for less than $20 Million for public money?

Think about how much the county has already spent on stadiums. they had to use funds from the HC toll roads to make up the short fall they had recently. IMO that doesn't sound as if they can take on any more debt.

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My understanding is that the city is going to close one block of a street over there and the garden will take up two city blocks and the rightof way for that one block of street. I don't think its the area you are talking about as it will be farther west on the south side of 59 closer to the China Town area.

Yeah, I think we're talking about the same area. There's a vacant lot with crushed limestone that is surrounded on three sides by Lofts at the Ballpark, and across the street and also facing US 59 is a vacant two- or three-story building with Chinese architectural elements and stone lions out front (I think it is called "Hunan Palace"). It would surprise me, however, if the City closed off any streets right around there, though, since St. Emanuel provides for movement to the southwest and Capitol and Rusk streets are among the few that provide continuous southeast/northwest movement between the neighborhoods adjoining US 59.

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Yeah, I think we're talking about the same area. There's a vacant lot with crushed limestone that is surrounded on three sides by Lofts at the Ballpark, and across the street and also facing US 59 is a vacant two- or three-story building with Chinese architectural elements and stone lions out front (I think it is called "Hunan Palace"). It would surprise me, however, if the City closed off any streets right around there, though, since St. Emanuel provides for movement to the southwest and Capitol and Rusk streets are among the few that provide continuous southeast/northwest movement between the neighborhoods adjoining US 59.

I heard that the stadium spot being discussed is a parking lot where Astros fans normally park across from MMP. The site was shown on a Ch. 11 report a couple weeks ago. Are you talking about the same spot?

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I heard that the stadium spot being discussed is a parking lot where Astros fans normally park across from MMP. The site was shown on a Ch. 11 report a couple weeks ago. Are you talking about the same spot?

No, although the block that I'm referring to (Capitol, Rusk, St. Emanuel, and Chartes) is also used for parking on game days. The spot that I think you're referring to is between Texas and Preston and inside of Bastrop.

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No, although the block that I'm referring to (Capitol, Rusk, St. Emanuel, and Chartes) is also used for parking on game days. The spot that I think you're referring to is between Texas and Preston and inside of Bastrop.

According to the report, the parking lot I'm referring to (I think you're right; Texas/Preston/Bastrop) is owned by the city, and if the deal went through, the City of Houston would donate the land to the team in the deal. If that's the case, where would the city lose money? Instead, they'd lose land that they could have sold to someone else, and in effect, don't have to put much money (if any money) down on a new stadium, right?

http://www.khou.com/news/local/fortbend/st...m.265958f9.html

Here's the report again. In the video, it has the parking lot.

Edited by DJ V Lawrence
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If they build the stadium in Sugarland it will be pass hwy6 down 59 south somewere down there.

If they build the stadium in Pearland it will be on 288 and Beltway8

It looks like Pearland would be alot closer then Sugarland.

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I read a little, do you think the best bet is to be near transit ? and also do you think they should build a garage or a lot. garage may look more asthetic, but it will be a pain in the ass to get out. I personally, wish soccer would take the approach of baseball, and build fields in the city, with basically on transit, and parking surrounding areas in garages. With soccer every view you can have a great site for the city, and I think like most ballparks it helps the city be more than just a city, the outdoor atmosphere is so much more than just an indoor area, especially in the city.

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According to the report, the parking lot I'm referring to (I think you're right; Texas/Preston/Bastrop) is owned by the city, and if the deal went through, the City of Houston would donate the land to the team in the deal. If that's the case, where would the city lose money? Instead, they'd lose land that they could have sold to someone else, and in effect, don't have to put much money (if any money) down on a new stadium, right?

The contentious issue would be parking arrangements for the Astros. Structured parking may be the preferred way to go to make up for parking lost to a soccer stadium, but that can get prohibitively expensive when you're only talking about something that is used seasonally and periodically, and then for only a few hours at a time. It wouldn't surprise me if they just decided to go with eminent domain for a few more blocks and tear down some more old buildings to make room for surface parking, but then someone ends up eating the cost of a lot of downtown area land... so we come back to the land costs as being a reason for the Dynamos to locate at Del Mar or elsewhere.

Also, I'm not sure when soccer season is, so I don't know whether there is overlap, but if there were the possibility for having two games going on concurrently, that would really create problems and would basically be a deal-killer right off the bat.

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