Shell Energy Stadium

[eelimon]

XMarks the spot for my suggestion of locations

East end/ east side of downtown locations:

West part of downtown:

south east part of downtown near the old Chinatown and near Toyota center:

Western part of Galleria off Westheimer Rd:

Galleria near Richmond Ave:

Greenway plaza:

[DJ V Lawrence]

Couldn't decide if this should be a new topic or not, but Oliver Luck is the new president of the team, and the stadium is #1 agenda. Check out this article...

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/disp/story...nt/3539024.html

What really struck me about this article was that fact that it mentions that this stadium very much has a reality chance of ending up downtown. Here's excerpts from the article that may give suggestions about the team's future location and/or ownership...

from the John Lopez/ Houston Chronicle...

--- Luck's vast experience with projects bigger than the likely 25,000- to 30,000-seat soccer-specific stadium gives this organization a head start succeeding.

--- With associations with all the usual suspects when it comes to ownership

Edited December 21, 2005 by DJ V Lawrence

[Subdude]

I didn't even think of those vacant lots on Dallas across from Allen Center, but that would be a nice location too. Right by Sam Houston park and adjacent to tons of parking. To me the Galleria area locations would be a nightmare however. Traffic is a zoo even at the best of times, and they don't have the existing available parking facilities.

My vote would still go for a small-scale soccer-only field. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I just can't see any big advantage to a huge 40,000 seat stadium to host high school football championships and everything else under the sun. Let them use Reliant to host large events! Any facilty that size is going to have huge requirements in terms of cost, size, and parking.

It's great these guys are thinking in terms of downtown.

[MidtownCoog]

might as well start with a great stadium, then work on the roads and developments surrounding it.

Yea, just like MMP was going to change the world. Still wating for that to happen.

but I just can't see any big advantage to a huge 40,000 seat stadium to host high school football championships and everything else under the sun

Exactly. The Dome, UH and Rice host all these events already.

[RedScare]

The excitement surrounding the possibility of an open air, moderate sized soccer/football facility really shines a bright light on the albatros that is Reliant Stadium, doesn't it? A quote somewhere else said it cost $200,000 to open the doors at Reliant, a figure that doesn't sound out of line, considering the cost of AC and labor in the behemoth. Reliant was sold as the facility that could do it all, but the "Bigger in Texas" concept apparently includes costs of putting on events, ruling out most colleges, almost ALL high school events, and everything else that isn't NFL.

At $350 million, that is an expensive lesson...as well as an expensive venue used less than 20 times a year, outside of the 3 weeks that the rodeo gets. I hope that before this thing goes too far, that its usefulness is assured...which basically means that if HISD doesn't need it, tax money should not build it.

I am definitely not down on MLS, and I like the thought of another facility next to Downtown, but in reality, only Toyota Center comes close to being worth the tax money spent on it, with MMP a distant second. Reliant got us one Superbowl...hardly worth the investment.

[Subdude]

Does anyone happen to know the dimensions of a city block? I'm wondering how many blocks would be necessary for a stadium.

[RedScare]

Does anyone happen to know the dimensions of a city block? I'm wondering how many blocks would be necessary for a stadium.

Downtown city blocks are generally 300 feet square. The streets tend to be 60 to 75 feet wide. A stadium would take at least 4 blocks, possibly 6.

[ldogg]

eelimon...

thanks for the pics and suggestions... but I don't think any of them would work save for the 2 locations near the Toyota center... the others are either too small and don't allow for parking, or like the one for MMP you'd be eliminating ALL of the parking for season ticket holders to MMP... I doubt Drayton would go for that...

whatever happened to the suggestion of razing Delmar stadium and rebuilding it for the MLS team and HISD?? personally I think that is the best bet of all... it is very near many hispanic communities.. is in an area served by Metro transit.. and it would further serve to revitalize that area along with the new HISD headquarters..

[DJ V Lawrence]

eelimon...

thanks for the pics and suggestions... but I don't think any of them would work save for the 2 locations near the Toyota center... the others are either too small and don't allow for parking, or like the one for MMP you'd be eliminating ALL of the parking for season ticket holders to MMP... I doubt Drayton would go for that...

whatever happened to the suggestion of razing Delmar stadium and rebuilding it for the MLS team and HISD?? personally I think that is the best bet of all... it is very near many hispanic communities.. is in an area served by Metro transit.. and it would further serve to revitalize that area along with the new HISD headquarters..

Delmar's not really in a central location. It's near many hispanic communities, but for soccer to be successful in Houston, it will have to be a diverse target audience. A central location is the way to go with Houston.

[eelimon]

eelimon...

thanks for the pics and suggestions... but I don't think any of them would work save for the 2 locations near the Toyota center... the others are either too small and don't allow for parking, or like the one for MMP you'd be eliminating ALL of the parking for season ticket holders to MMP... I doubt Drayton would go for that...

whatever happened to the suggestion of razing Delmar stadium and rebuilding it for the MLS team and HISD?? personally I think that is the best bet of all... it is very near many hispanic communities.. is in an area served by Metro transit.. and it would further serve to revitalize that area along with the new HISD headquarters..

What do you think of these locations on the nothside of Downtown:

[ldogg]

god that Allianz Arena is hideous.... looks like the hindenburg didn't actually burn up... blegh...

the stadium will be simple and cost effective... I don't see fancy architecture playing into what is a low revenue league right now... Houstonians need to check themselves about roofs on stadiums... it is insanity.... not to mention that soccer due to it's nature can get away with a much less luxurious stadium... you get in find your seat and don't leave for 45 minutes... then you've got 15 minutes to do what you need and get back for another 45 minutes... unlike baseball with tons of down time and minutes between innings and football/basketball with tons of tv timeouts, ends of quarters and halftime, soccer is a quick game with no stop... people don't want to miss a score because they are rare... so there isn't the need for fancy bars, restaurants etc..etc... slap down a field... put 10,000 seats on each side of the field with some luxury boxes at the top of one end and press boxes at the top of the other and 3,000 seats at each end... total capacity of about 30,000... do some simple cosmetic things to give the stadium a nice feel to it and make it seem fancier than it is...

[ldogg]

What do you think of these locations on the nothside of Downtown:

hmmm... well the first one is land that I believe is owned by Hakeem Olajuwon right?? it certainly has good potential and plenty of space and could utilize the banks of the bayou for some parks and such... no doubt it would improve the landscape of the area for people driving through Houston... my main concern would be getting traffic in and out of that area... I've driven by there a gazillion times, but have no clue what exits to take or where to turn to actually get there...

that location on Franklin is the current Post Office HQ right?? that could work but I'm not sure about having enough parking... it would be somewhat close to the Aquarium which lends itself to more tourism/attractions in the area... but the main problem I see with this is that there would be too much involved to make it happen... would the owners of the team be willing to wait it out? you're talking about moving a federal operation and buying the land... the gov't doesn't normally move too quickly on these sort of things and they'd have to have new facilities ready to move into pretty quick... how long would it take for them to find a new location?? how long would the design and bid phase of constructing the new location take? what sort of time frame would they have for construction?? how long would it take to get moved into the new spot??

then after all of that the team could demolish the site and begin construction which would take 18-24 months.... I just don't see them waiting for all that... not to say that the site wouldn't be a good option.. my main concerns would be available parking and also ease of access... remember, they want to not only attract the strong local hispanic population, but also all the kids in the suburbs and their soccer moms... it is why I think a place like Delmar is the best bet.... easy to locate.. easy to get to... in close proximity to a highly hispanic area... safer feel for soccer moms out in the burbs to load up 4-8 kids in the Suburban and head in to town for an MLS game...

[MidtownCoog]

Pizza Hut Park in Frisco cost 65 Million. What a rip!

Post Office HQ right

LOL! People have been trying to grab this land for years. And if/when they ever do, it sure won't be converted into a stadium.

You can print that.

Edited December 21, 2005 by MidtownCoog

[Subdude]

As I mentioned earlier the post office site was designed as a festival grounds in the Buffalo Bayou plan. About three years ago the post office was looking at relocating to near the airport, but nothing came of it. Probably when it was built a location near the tracks made sense, but now closeness to the airport would be more efficient. Also, the existing facility is inefficient as a processing facility due to some design constraints.

Anyway, aren't there four adjacent nearly vacant blocks right across from Minute Maid Park, bounded by Crawford and Texas? From what I can remember the only structures on the site are the vacant William Penn and Ben Milam hotels, and my guess is that the Ben Milam is beyond repair. The rest is surface parking. That would be a great location, and it would use existing MMP and nearby parking. If they could build it there imagine the crowds downtown on nights when there were both baseball and futbol games. That would be great!

[MidtownCoog]

but now closeness to the airport would be more efficient

The rumor I heard is a new main P.O. down 288 before you get to Pearland.

My father works at the main P.O. There is a massive P.O. off Aldine Mail Rt. and also on Lee Rd. near IAH that handles air mail.

Otherwise you'd be sending mail to the airport for no reason. And you'd be surprised how much mail still travels by truck.

That would be a great location, and it would use existing MMP and nearby parking.

Then you'd have to close more streets. Congress is bad enough as it is.

N. Jackson (59 South) already dead-ends into MMP. You have to turn right on Congress, and then left on La Branch to go south.

Yuk

[nmainguy]

Delmar is very centrally located at the intersection of 290 and 610. It's a HUGE chunk of land even with the new HISD HQ.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Here's a stadium Idea or two for ya...

(by the way, Pizza Hut Park in Dallas costed $80 million...)

This one is currently being built in France. It costs $54 Million , AND it's a 25,000 seat stadium...

Here's #2. A 21,000 seat retractable Roof stadium in Greece 2007 that cost $48.5 million...

here's #3. Also in France. Capacity: 30,100. It cost more than HALF as much as Pizza Hut Park.... ( price tag $27 Million dollars)

Edited December 22, 2005 by DJ V Lawrence

[Montrose1100]

How about down 288?

I wouldn't go simply because of the traffic.

I would love to see the stadium by the Medical Center. Perhaps somewhere in Midtown, alond the Rail Line?

[DJ V Lawrence]

Here's a stadium Idea or two for ya...

(by the way, Pizza Hut Park in Dallas costed $80 million...)

This one is currently being built in France. It costs $54 Million , AND it's a 25,000 seat stadium...

Here's #2. A 21,000 seat retractable Roof stadium in Greece 2007 that cost $48.5 million...

here's #3. Also in France. Capacity: 30,100. It cost more than HALF as much as Pizza Hut Park.... ( price tag $27 Million dollars)

Remember this soccer stadium list. Now after you see that, look at this article ...

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/disp/story...nt/3541446.html

Why build a $80 million dollar HISD stadium at Delmar that looks no different than any other in America, when you can go over the top for less than $30 million in downtown?

For $80 million, you can not only host the MLS downtown, but you can RENOVATE Delmar stadium and it's area, and use the high school as a PRACTICE FACILITY!!! We need local ownership IMMEDIATELY!!

Edited December 22, 2005 by DJ V Lawrence

[RedScare]

Your math makes no sense at all. A stadium at Delmar would have no land cost, plus a significant contribution from HISD. How does $30 million get you more than $80 million?

[DJ V Lawrence]

Your math makes no sense at all. A stadium at Delmar would have no land cost, plus a significant contribution from HISD. How does $30 million get you more than $80 million?

Okay, here's 80 million dolar Pizza Hut Park...

Here's 54 million...

And here's 48.5 million...

It's not my math. It's the actual costs of the stadiums...

http://www.stadiumguide.com/future.htm

[Subdude]

AEG seeking partner for stadium development:

Pro soccer team seeks public partner

Owners want to make a deal with a school district or other entity to help build new stadium

By BILL MURPHY

Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

The company that owns the Major League Soccer team coming to Houston hopes to form a partnership with a school district or other public entity that would share the costs of building a $65 million to $80 million soccer stadium.

The Anschutz Entertainment Group, owner of the team relocating from San Jose, Calif., would share a new stadium with Houston high school athletes under one deal being considered by school and soccer officials.

This deal calls for AEG, on its own or with financial assistance from the Houston Independent School District, to build a 20,000- to 25,000-seat venue on the site of the school district's Delmar Stadium at U.S. 290 and Loop 610.

AEG also will explore whether a school district might become a partner in building a stadium surrounded by community soccer fields

[ldogg]

DJLawrence...

the problem I see with your math is that it isn't considering anything other than a reported final price tag... you've got to compare apples to apples... did the French or Greek govt's contribute to those stadiums? was the land already purchased or not.... what sort of labor costs do they have compared to the US... etc...etc..

those stadiums look nice, but in reality how do they stack up to Pizza Hut Park?? we can't really compare any of them as we don't know what the insides are like etc.... did PHP price tag include all the land and work done for all those other fields and such?? that makes a big difference...

i tend to agree with you that a stadium can be built fairly economically... there is nothing fancy about permanent bleachers/seating and you can keep that aspect simple... after that it is building the simple innards for locker rooms, gym and bathrooms and concessions... the rest is window dressing... and I'd venture a guess that the brick of PHP carries a much higher labor/material cost than what those Euro stadiums have... of course the cost in those would be more in the design and maybe that is where the big difference lies in that we don't have stadium architects who are as effective/efficient?

[houstonsemipro]

Damn. I thought they was thinking about building this somewhere downtown? Oh, well. Delmar area was the orginial site for a soccer stadium anyway.

[DJ V Lawrence]

DJLawrence...

the problem I see with your math is that it isn't considering anything other than a reported final price tag... you've got to compare apples to apples... did the French or Greek govt's contribute to those stadiums? was the land already purchased or not.... what sort of labor costs do they have compared to the US... etc...etc..

those stadiums look nice, but in reality how do they stack up to Pizza Hut Park?? we can't really compare any of them as we don't know what the insides are like etc.... did PHP price tag include all the land and work done for all those other fields and such?? that makes a big difference...

i tend to agree with you that a stadium can be built fairly economically... there is nothing fancy about permanent bleachers/seating and you can keep that aspect simple... after that it is building the simple innards for locker rooms, gym and bathrooms and concessions... the rest is window dressing... and I'd venture a guess that the brick of PHP carries a much higher labor/material cost than what those Euro stadiums have... of course the cost in those would be more in the design and maybe that is where the big difference lies in that we don't have stadium architects who are as effective/efficient?

In case the pictures don't come out, here's the links...

http://www.stadiumguide.com/havre.htm

http://www.stadiumguide.com/clermont.htm

http://www.stadiumguide.com/larissa.htm

I can't confirm if land prices were included in the price results or not, but that was a good point

[THE CHAD IS GREAT]

I would prefer they build the stadium downtown, but I also think with a decent design of the Stadium & parking structures that Delmar would be fine location. Except for when they start on the 290/Hempstead project.(That is going to be a nightmare)

[HeightsGuy]

The article makes a great point about being more than "just" a stadium. You put this thing in downtown, and it will become just as bad as Reliant with 20-30 events a year tops. Make it low-tech and low-maintenance so it doesn't cost much to open the doors for an event, surround it with 10-12 soccer fields, and you have built-in chances at hosting regional soccer tournaments as well as the ability to establish city-wide soccer leagues. Kids fly all over the country to go to these things, and we have a golden opportunity to create one in our backyard. That's an opportunity to get visitors to Houston that wouldn't necessasarily come to a soccer match in a compact downtown facility.

Also, I don't understand all the pushback on the Delmar site. Almost a half-million people pass that spot daily, it's on a future rail line, and in terms of the plat size needed to support it, it's as close to downtown as you're going to get.

[sevfiv]

i like the suggestions of robertson or astrodome. we don't need to build another ugly stadium. we already have enough for our whiny overpaid athletes

[ziggy29]

One interesting thing about talking about Robertson is that it's so much like what the Quakes had in San Jose. The Quakes had a 30,000-seat stadium built in the '40s, the home of a local college football team (San Jose State), one that has a good seating plan for soccer but is somewhat antiquated. If the stadium (which I rather liked as a life-long San Jose area resident until a couple years ago) was part of the problem for attendance, I don't see how Robertson would be much different.

Having said that, with all due respect to soccer fans, this is MLS. It's not a HUGE source of revenue like MLB, the NFL or the NBA. It's not worth breaking the bank for, as the ROI would be rather puny.

[DJ V Lawrence]

i like the suggestions of robertson or astrodome. we don't need to build another ugly stadium.

You're right. We shouldn't build another ugly stadium. We should build the most beautiful stadium we possibly can for less than $90 million. Find the right investors, not spend taxpayer money unless if we make the stadium itself create higher revenue for the city than the city put into it eventually by making this stadium usable year-around with a retractable roof and great accustics for a LARGE concert stadium and possible additional convention space, build within 5 minutes of Downtown, and support the team by checking them out.

Robertson? Not bad for temporary, but it's not meant for soccer. If the MLS is successful for attendance, UH students and faculty will have a difficult time getting around, and THEY should be the priority on UH, not MLS in my opinion. So for permanent, I'm against it.

Astrodome? Out of the question. They already have plans for it to be renovated.