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This columnist wants it near downtown to succeed.

Dec. 16, 2005, 12:11AM

Club shouldn't be treated like a second-class citizen

By JOHN P. LOPEZ

Major League Soccer has only three chances of succeeding in Houston: Location, location, location.

The most important part of today's City Hall festivities, where pomp will be followed by circumstance

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Noooo, it's gotta be built on the old AstroWorld parking space next to Reliant! Then it can tie in with the Reliant Convention Center and whatever redo of the Astrodome, and lightrail access. Plus, I don't think there would be any overlap with the MLS season and NFL, and no overlap with the Rodeo.

Edited by NewMND
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This columnist wants it near downtown to succeed.

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There's probably not enough room downtown, but it would be great if they could use the Minute Maid Park parking lots on the other side of 59 for a soccer stadium? Of course, that isn't realistic, since the Astros might not be happy giving up adjacent parking, and the MLS and MLB seasons overlap.

I think this columnist is 150% right. And there is room to build a stadium at or near downtown (could be used as part of the Buffalo Bayou plan and build it along the bayou). Or much better; I'd either tear down the rundown looking building across from Toyota Center and Root Memorial Park, build it somewhere Midtown, or across the freeway from Minute Maid/George R. Brown to help revitalize the China Town/3rd Ward area neighborhoods.

Another thought: remember how we alwayz wanted the Astrodome to at first become a track and field stadium for the Olympics, and also host the World track and field championships? Why couldn't this stadium be used also as the best track n field stadium AND soccer stadium in America? Also, with it being adjacent to Downtown, and it probably being an outdoor/retractable roof facility (if they wanted all-weather for track n field), it'd be another perfect way to show off Downtown during events. It could be a great investment for Houston AND for soccer AND for Track and Field.

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My gut instinct is to vote for downtown. But there's soooooo much available parking for just this sort of event in the Astrodome area. I say put it at Six Flags.

Six Flags is another great location for an MLS stadium. But I think that location is already known to have a lot of potential. What's overlooked is how subpar the strip centers look across from Reliant Park (Kirby, Old Spanish Trail.) The only think I can think of that's somewhat upscale in that area was the Texans practice Facilities, and the Radisson. I'd tear down one of the strip centers first before I'd build at Six Flags...

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I can see the sense in Reliant Park, with parking and the lack of season overlap, but I think my first choice would still be downtown. It would be cool if the soccer stadium were kind of small and intimate, like a minor league ball park where you feel you could wander in some evening and watch a game on a whim. Reliant Park just seems a little oversized and impersonal for what I'm thinking. If it could be slotted in around MMP somehow parking might not necessarily be a problem, since MLS attendance will probably only be around 15,000. Also, along with Toyota it might help (finally) to build up the critical mass of bodies to help justify some more development in the area.

Another downtown location which might work would be the site of the main post office on Franklin. The post office has made noises about selling the tract, and in the Buffalo Bayou Plan it was suggested as a permanent festival grounds (another great idea). A soccer stadium could also probably slot in there nicely, and would add another entertainment option around Bayou Place and the aquarium.

One thing I really don't want to see now is development of the stadium at Delmar or out in the suburbs. It would be such a wasted opportunity.

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Also I think the name of the team shoud be based on where the stadium is built. If it's built downtown, then it should be something space, like Apollos or something (although I wanted to save Apollos for our future NHL team), since they'll be playing near the Astros and Rockets. If it's at Reliant, then something Texas-ey, like Mustangs or whatever. Looking at the names of AEGs other teams, I don't see it getting "FC" or "AC" or whatever, but instead a Houston + Mascot name. But anyways, I hope they're not still considering Delmar.

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Maybe this is just the sort of thing needed to revitalize the East End. Imagine a stadium just off Harrisburg surrounded by a thriving community of tacorias, ballrooms, bars, and other small businesses. Imagine the fan loyalty. It would put any Major League Baseball team to shame.

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Maybe this is just the sort of thing needed to revitalize the East End. Imagine a stadium just off Harrisburg surrounded by a thriving community of tacorias, ballrooms, bars, and other small businesses. Imagine the fan loyalty. It would put any Major League Baseball team to shame.

This sounds like the best idea so far.

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I can see the sense in Reliant Park, with parking and the lack of season overlap, but I think my first choice would still be downtown. It would be cool if the soccer stadium were kind of small and intimate, like a minor league ball park where you feel you could wander in some evening and watch a game on a whim. Reliant Park just seems a little oversized and impersonal for what I'm thinking. If it could be slotted in around MMP somehow parking might not necessarily be a problem, since MLS attendance will probably only be around 15,000. Also, along with Toyota it might help (finally) to build up the critical mass of bodies to help justify some more development in the area.

Another downtown location which might work would be the site of the main post office on Franklin. The post office has made noises about selling the tract, and in the Buffalo Bayou Plan it was suggested as a permanent festival grounds (another great idea). A soccer stadium could also probably slot in there nicely, and would add another entertainment option around Bayou Place and the aquarium.

One thing I really don't want to see now is development of the stadium at Delmar or out in the suburbs. It would be such a wasted opportunity.

Subdude, please remember that the Earthquakes moved out of San Jose not only because o fno new stadium plan, but the average attendance was only around 13,000. This stadium will have to be WAY bigger than 15,000.

But it seems that Delmar is more and more unpopular. I don't like the Delmar idea either. It'd be a waste.

Edited by DJ V Lawrence
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Here's another idea...

oita_stadium1.jpg

This stadium in (Oita Stadium in Japan) seats roughly 43,000-44,000 give or take, and is a soccer stadium/track and field stadium with retractable seating to accomidate track and field events. As you can see, the seats are right there for great views. A retractable roof, like this stadium above, would definately be the way to go in Houston, because it's not too certain if Houstonians would sell out a stadium of any sports team in the rain.

Now imagine if where that big screen jumbotron is, would only be a scenic skyline view of downtown Houston through the retractable roof and wall of glass. I'd say give the stadium fewer seats (between 35,000 - 40,000), but many suites, only one huge jumbotron facing the opposite side of downtown (saving costs), and on the side facing downtown, have retail Ford Field-Detroit style at street level so the stadium could make revenue even when games and track meets were not going on. Heck, it could even be added to the Houston Pavillions project if people were afraid that their project would be threatened by it. They could even add a game titantron on to the side of one of the buildings- something I think has never been tried before in any sports venue on earth.

Doesn't have to be the biggest stadium on earth, but it better set the standard for professional soccer stadiums in America, just like the Astrodome and Reliant Stadium have been for all of sports. If we love Houston, and we love soccer, we should support it like no other American city.

Edited by DJ V Lawrence
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Here's another idea...

oita_stadium1.jpg

This stadium in (Oita Stadium in Japan) seats roughly 43,000-44,000 give or take, and is a soccer stadium/track and field stadium with retractable seating to accomidate track and field events. As you can see, the seats are right there for great views. A retractable roof, like this stadium above, would definately be the way to go in Houston, because it's not too certain if Houstonians would sell out a stadium of any sports team in the rain.

Now imagine if where that big screen jumbotron is, would only be a scenic skyline view of downtown Houston through the retractable roof and wall of glass. I'd say give the stadium fewer seats (between 35,000 - 40,000), but many suites, only one huge jumbotron facing the opposite side of downtown (saving costs), and on the side facing downtown, have retail Ford Field-Detroit style at street level so the stadium could make revenue even when games and track meets were not going on. Heck, it could even be added to the Houston Pavillions project if people were afraid that their project would be threatened by it. They could even add a game titantron on to the side of one of the buildings- something I think has never been tried before in any sports venue on earth.

Doesn't have to be the biggest stadium on earth, but it better set the standard for professional soccer stadiums in America, just like the Astrodome and Reliant Stadium have been for all of sports. If we love Houston, and we love soccer, we should support it like no other American city.

I really like the way you think. I just can't imagine that the city would spend enough money on a soccer stadium. I think they're going bare bones on this one. The best we can hope for is something on city land in downtown, Reliant Park parking lot, or Delmar. I wouldn't count on more than 25k seats, a roof, or retail. I just don't think the people of Houston think of soccer on the same scale as football, baseball, or basketball so I doubt it will get much public money. And we already know the current owner isn't willing to shell out too much. We could use a new owner with deep pockets.

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I really like the way you think. I just can't imagine that the city would spend enough money on a soccer stadium. I think they're going bare bones on this one. The best we can hope for is something on city land in downtown, Reliant Park parking lot, or Delmar. I wouldn't count on more than 25k seats, a roof, or retail. I just don't think the people of Houston think of soccer on the same scale as football, baseball, or basketball so I doubt it will get much public money. And we already know the current owner isn't willing to shell out too much. We could use a new owner with deep pockets.

Excellent point on what to expect (a 25k, bland open-air Colt 45 stadium with use only for soccer and high school football games). If Houston wants to stay on top of the architecture food chain, I think it's best if we start looking at ways to use that stadium for more than just 13 games of soccer. Houstonians love luxurious facilities. If you had to choose where to watch a game, and the new MLS facility is smaller and less comfortable than even Robertson Stadium, why would anyone want to buy season tickets? Why not let the city put our money where our mouth is, support the team, and more importantly, make a larger stadium that actually MAKE revenue for the city 365 days a year?

By the way, on the larger than MLS standard stadium: if it's as luxurious and as comfortable as Toyota Center, Minute Maid, and Reliant Stadium, I guarantee that more people would actually attend the games. Not only that, but the entire MLS league and fans would spotlight our stadium every chance they had. I'll support our team if the city is serious about supporting it.

Edited by DJ V Lawrence
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That stadium in Japan is beautiful, but just out of scale for what we will need. Great stadium architecture isn't just a matter of size or luxury. In this case a smaller size can be an advantage, if we can create an intimate urban soccer field that manages to integrate with its neighborhood. That's my concern with a location at Reliant - the scale is too big, it's too isolated from the neighborhood, and too surrounded by acres of parking to be approachable on bike or foot. Think of the model of a minor league ballpark, where there is room for people to come in and sit on the grass and picnic. I can see it working well on the East End. Bare-bones or not, an urban neighborhood field could be more a benchmark for new facilities than something like Frisco.

By point of reference, average MLS attendance for 2005 (sorry for the alignment)

Team Total Average

DC United 266,617 16,664

Chicago Fire 275,811 17,238

CD Chivas USA 273,284 17,080

Los Angeles Galaxy 387,256 24,204

Colorado Rapids 218,206 13,638

Columbus Crew 206,654 12,916

FC Dallas 179,021 11,189

Kansas City Wizards 155,060 9,691

MetroStars (NJ) 241,230 15,077

New England Revolution 200,397 12,525

Real Salt Lake 288,586 18,037

San Jose Earthquakes 208,594 13,037

MLS Average 15,108

The only team exceeding 20,000 average was LA, and that's in a metro area approximately 3x the size of Houston. I'm thinking 20,000 max capacity for a stadium.

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Two things:

First of all, the San Jose seems to be quite successful winning two MLS championships and winning its division last year. Always good to have a winning team.

Second thing is how did Houston get the franchise without some sort of fantastic venue proposed? Reading the article from the Chronicle, it seems there is not even an ownership team in place yet. The stadium in San Jose looked nice.

Just wondering.

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My personal vote would also be in the east end, somewhere in the region bordered by 59, leeland, rusk, and scott. Seems like a huge potential, and would really get the area kick started I think. On the same side as toyota center and minute maid would be nice, but I still haven't really seen either one of those really have much of an impact on their immediate areas, so i don't know how a soccer stadium would fit in there either. 25-30K max, and I would rule out the idea of a track because tracks actually make the field farther away. Most colleges ripped out the tracks of their stadiums because of this very reason.

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FC - Football Club

AC - Athletic Club

For another point of reference, Frisco seats 21,000.

Also AC = Associazione Calcio (Italian soccer club)

WestGray I was wondering exactly the same thing about why the franchise would move here without a definite stadium plan, especially when lack of same cost San Jose the team. Maybe they looked at the public funding for MMP, Toyota, and Reliant, and figured we were easy marks.

My personal vote would also be in the east end, somewhere in the region bordered by 59, leeland, rusk, and scott.

Maybe it would work in the old Chinatown neighborhood. Not much current development, convenient to both the East End and downtown.

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If podunk Frisco can build a stadium...

I definitely don't think we should copy FC Dallas' strategy of moving to the 'burbs. I mean Dallas has a history of this... Irving, Arlington, Frisco... Houston is more urban, more central, and more proud. We have a history of building in the urban core. I say take a look at the Pizza Hut Stadium, but place it near the people. How about right at the western corner of the 45 & 59/288 split (View map)? This would be effectively in downtown and midtown, have great freeway frontage, great views from the stadium, and still be near UH where the club will start out.

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FC Dallas park: http://www.pizzahutpark.com

I rarely venture to the northern territory, but the other week I made my way to the park. As a native Houstonian, I must say that all parties involved in the creation of this park have created something wonderful. This is not just a field for professional soccer players, but field after field for todays youth to dream about making it to the main field.

Personally, I don't think this is a development that should be downtown. Some may say Katy, Clear Lake, The Woodlands, why not? How cool would it be to have an amazing soccer stadium on the shores or Clear Lake? This is a time for people to think different, think outside the box.

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Personally, I don't think this is a development that should be downtown. Some may say Katy, Clear Lake, The Woodlands, why not? How cool would it be to have an amazing soccer stadium on the shores or Clear Lake?

It might be cool to have a stadium on the shores of Clear Lake, but how many folks are gonna make the 110-mile round trip from The Woodlands down to Clear Lake on a regular basis? Or the 106-mile round trip from Katy to Clear Lake?

If you put it out in the burbs, you're essentially negating attendence from the other parts of town. The team becomes a "Clear Lake team", or a "Katy team"...it reduces the potential fan base.

If you put the stadium downtown, or at least in a central location...somewhere inside the Loop...you'll cut the drive in half, and drastically increase the probability that someone is willing to go out to a game.

Edited by Original Timmy Chan's
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The Delmar site looks like a fantastic location-logistics wise-for a soccer stadium. Access from I610 and 290; acres of room; the possible teaming with HISD. As far as type...it would be fantastic to have a Calatrava design in such a visible locale.

11099602.jpg

B)

PS. Let's keep it in Houston. We should'nt go the Irving Cowboys or Arlington Rangers route when there is so much possibility to keep it local.

Edited by nmainguy
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Central location, yes. But, why does it have to be covered and air conditioned? I'd like to see a cutting edge design that makes it comfortable without AC. Fans? Misters? Trees surrounding the stadium with a covered, but open seating area?

AC is old news. Anyone can spend thousands of dollars per game to air condition a domed stadium. Let's see some energy saving comfort technology that tells the world that Houston isn't living in 1965. Same thing with the NASA nicknames.

I have only done research on how to cool my house efficiently, so I am no expert on how to do this, but I would be willing to bet that it can be done. Besides, Cynthia Woods Pavillion runs its entire season from April to October. Restaurants fill their patios all summer in the evenings. MLS can do it, too.

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Central location, yes. But, why does it have to be covered and air conditioned? I'd like to see a cutting edge design that makes it comfortable without AC. Fans? Misters? Trees surrounding the stadium with a covered, but open seating area?

AC is old news. Anyone can spend thousands of dollars per game to air condition a domed stadium. Let's see some energy saving comfort technology that tells the world that Houston isn't living in 1965. Same thing with the NASA nicknames.

I have only done research on how to cool my house efficiently, so I am no expert on how to do this, but I would be willing to bet that it can be done. Besides, Cynthia Woods Pavillion runs its entire season from April to October. Restaurants fill their patios all summer in the evenings. MLS can do it, too.

Not saying open-air is bad per-se, but soccer does have delays and canceled games during thunderstorms. Rain is okay, but lightning is the threat. Secondly, if you're a fan, would you rather watch a game indoors, or outdoors during a storm? That's a huge reason why Minute Maid Park has a retractable roof. Fan comfort. Trees would be nice around the park too though.

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So, is that a team's way of saying they're too cool to have a mascot, or do FC/AC teams still have mascots?

You mean those people dressed up like cartoon characters? I hope our team is too cool for that.

A retractable roof would be nice, but I can't see anyone shelling out for one for a 20,000 capacity venue. I do like the idea of looking at ways to keep it relatively cool without AC. Misters, large canopies or awnings over the stands are ideas. It would also help not to surround it with acres of parking, to reduce the "heat island" effect.

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Here's another reason I don't want a roof. I got a survey email from the Texans yesterday, asking if the roof should be open or closed Suday, and at what temperature should it close.

The forecast is for a high of 69 degrees!!!

The team is friggin' 2-12, and McNair is over at Reliant fiddling with the thermostat! No wonder this team sucks. An open air stadium will allow soccer fans to brag that they don't CARE if the roof is open. I would go just to show off to the pretty people that this is how you watch sports.

BTW, anyone watch the crowd in Chicago roar when the wind chill was announced at 7 below on Monday night? Those are REAL football fans, watching a real football team.

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Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that watching a sport should be some kind of endurance contest to prove you are a "real" fan. Most people appreciate reasonable comfort, and when they go to a game they're not trying to make some kind of statement about how tough they are. It's just that the economics of a retractable roof probably won't work here.

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You mean those people dressed up like cartoon characters? I hope our team is too cool for that.

A retractable roof would be nice, but I can't see anyone shelling out for one for a 20,000 capacity venue. I do like the idea of looking at ways to keep it relatively cool without AC. Misters, large canopies or awnings over the stands are ideas. It would also help not to surround it with acres of parking, to reduce the "heat island" effect.

No. I mean a mascot, like Rockets, Texans, Astros, Longhorns, Owls, Aggies, etc. So would a team be AC Houston Hurricanes or only AC Houston?

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Just AC Houston. Kind of dignified if you ask me.

Thinking more about the East End, it makes sense in a way, but this team is going to have to draw fans from all over a huge metro area. My concern is that a location on the East End might tend to scare off some potential attendees from the far suburbs. I know it sounds silly, but I have spoken to people whose parents are even afraid of going downtown, so you just know the East End will be out of bounds. Downtown doesn't have a good residential base like the East End, but at least it's centrally located and sports fans are used to driving there now.

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The forecast is for a high of 69 degrees!!!

My sentiments exactly. I thought the issue was when it was too hot, like 85 and above. This past weekend the roof was closed and I know they've done the same thing in cold weather over the previous 3 years also. Football is meant to be played outdoors, hell even Bob McNair wanted an open air stadium. He only added the roof for the Rodeo. Why would they ever close it when it's cold?

Rant over. As for the futbol stadium, I think a retractable roof for summertime is fine but also something like Qwest Field in Seattle on a smaller scale would be cool. Cover the fans but leave the roof open.

qwestfield3.jpg

77500.jpg

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McNair is listening to the Club Level crowd too much. I've had season tickets for the entire 4 years. It gets worse each year. He is so worried about the "perfect fan experience", that he's forgotten that we come to watch football.

McLane is a PR slave also, but he doesn't have quite as many gimmicks on the field. He also tries to put a competitive team on the field, within his relatively tight purse strings.

McNair, on the other hand, is acting like a politician, worried that anything or everything might offend a right winger. A few weeks ago, he had the cheerleaders in long pants. Everything is aimed at "families". Half-time looks like a USO show. Enough already! Where's Al Davis when you need him? Or the Tampa Bay Bucs?

I know other teams, like the Carolina Panthers, are as bad or worse, but at least the team is good.

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Well, if you're going to dream, dream big. How about a smaller-scale version of the incredible Allianz Arena which was built for next year's World Cup. The outside shell of the stadium is covered in ETFE and can be lit up with a number of different colors. An architectural masterpiece designed by Jacques Herzog and Pierre de Meuron.

01_c.jpg

allianz-arena.jpg

113710-allianz-arena-15606.jpg

munichstadium_large.jpg

Edited by HeightsGuy
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McNair is listening to the Club Level crowd too much. I've had season tickets for the entire 4 years. It gets worse each year. He is so worried about the "perfect fan experience", that he's forgotten that we come to watch football.

McLane is a PR slave also, but he doesn't have quite as many gimmicks on the field. He also tries to put a competitive team on the field, within his relatively tight purse strings.

McNair, on the other hand, is acting like a politician, worried that anything or everything might offend a right winger. A few weeks ago, he had the cheerleaders in long pants. Everything is aimed at "families". Half-time looks like a USO show. Enough already! Where's Al Davis when you need him? Or the Tampa Bay Bucs?

I know other teams, like the Carolina Panthers, are as bad or worse, but at least the team is good.

Umm, I think you're in the wrong topic here. :unsure:

Than Allianz arena is awesome.

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I think people are missing the point here. First, you need to get real. Do you think a retractable roof is going to happen?? No way. No one is going to spend crazy money for an MLS soccer team when we already have 3 great stadiums. Keep is simple, but amazing and useful.

You keep mentioning downtown, but someone is going to pony up some serious cash for the ever increasing prices. In my opinion, something like should be built with plenty of space. The only positive thing about having all the parks in one central location is for the Olympics. And I really don't think we will be seeing those on US soil for some time.

I grew up playing soccer from 1st grade until I graduated from college. I really must admit that I was jealous that there was nothing like what Frisco has to offer when I was a kid. It is more than a place to see professional soccer, it is a learning experience. Field after field for kids to meet and square off with each other every Saturday morning. I sincerely hope that Houston takes a look at what Frisco created.

Well, if you're going to dream, dream big. How about a smaller-scale version of the incredible Allianz Arena which was built for next year's World Cup. The outside shell of the stadium is covered in ETFE and can be lit up with a number of different colors. An architectural masterpiece designed by Jacques Herzog and Pierre de Meuron.

01_c.jpg

allianz-arena.jpg

113710-allianz-arena-15606.jpg

munichstadium_large.jpg

This is pretty cool. I was reading about this in a recent magazine.

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You are right about the retractable roof, and also that Frisco is a model of what MLS would like in terms of providing training facilities for kids. Still, I don't see any advantage in building in the deep suburbs. The point about downtown isn't the Olympics, it is a central location and perhaps the ability leverage some of the existing parking facilities etc.

Will the Harris County sports authority be able to provide any funding for this? So far it has been very hazy, other than MLS saying they want to fund the stadium with a "public-private partnership".

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The East End perhaps, up near I-10 where there's a real need for re-development, but Subdude's comment about the area being potentially scary is valid.

I would lean towards the southeast sector of DT, near Toyota, as that area still lies in wait of better things. And, if we could get all sports venues in a semi concentrated area, along with the GRB, we might be able to attract a permanent restaurant/bar zone, as the various seasons would overlap.

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I think we should build a stadium on the superblock in Midtown. Camden obviously isn't going to do anything with this location and the area definitely needs something to anchor it. You could build a parking garage on the site and still incorporate some retail facing main. The best part is that you have a rail stop right in front of it. It's still centrally located, but it will be cheaper than having to buy up land downtown.

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Well, if you're going to dream, dream big. How about a smaller-scale version of the incredible Allianz Arena which was built for next year's World Cup. The outside shell of the stadium is covered in ETFE and can be lit up with a number of different colors. An architectural masterpiece designed by Jacques Herzog and Pierre de Meuron.

01_c.jpg

allianz-arena.jpg

113710-allianz-arena-15606.jpg

munichstadium_large.jpg

Would LOVE to see Houston have the balls to do something like that and make it fill up. We'd be the soccer capital of America automatically.

I'm telling ya...an MLS stadium/retail project would be more profitable though

Edited by DJ V Lawrence
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I think we should build a stadium on the superblock in Midtown. Camden obviously isn't going to do anything with this location and the area definitely needs something to anchor it. You could build a parking garage on the site and still incorporate some retail facing main. The best part is that you have a rail stop right in front of it. It's still centrally located, but it will be cheaper than having to buy up land downtown.

I thought of that, but would it be wide enough?

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