Galveston Trolley Restoration

[CaptainJilliams]

This is more of a question than a topic of conversation, but I couldn't find a whole lot of information so I was wondering if anyone had any news regarding this topic. I know back after Hurricane Ike hit the trolleys were damaged (not the bus trolleys) and that they were undergoing restoration.

 

I had seen articles as recent as last year indicating they were close to coming back, but they weren't there when I traveled there in May of last year and haven't been back since. Does anyone know if they are operating again or is this one of those projects that is dragging along? Any word on when they may come back?

[Avossos]

2 hours ago, CaptainJilliams said:

This is more of a question than a topic of conversation, but I couldn't find a whole lot of information so I was wondering if anyone had any news regarding this topic. I know back after Hurricane Ike hit the trolleys were damaged (not the bus trolleys) and that they were undergoing restoration.

 

I had seen articles as recent as last year indicating they were close to coming back, but they weren't there when I traveled there in May of last year and haven't been back since. Does anyone know if they are operating again or is this one of those projects that is dragging along? Any word on when they may come back?

 

I want them back...

[CaptainJilliams]

Well, some good news on this topic! Looks like they are testing the trolleys once again and getting ready to roll them out sometime in the future.

https://www.galveston.com/trolley-rolls-out-of-barn-for-testing/

[zaphod]

Awesome news. Just in time for another hurricane...

 

But yeah it will be neat to see these return. Maybe by the summer of 2021 we'll be free again and those will be rolling. Seems like good timing.

[HouTXRanger]

They really need to get a new system for dealing with hurricanes for the trolleys. they can't keep restoring them every time they get a bad one, they need to contract with someone to move them off island if one is forecasted to hit them.

[zaphod]

Are they standard gauge? Maybe they could hitch them to the back of a freight train and take them out of town to a siding somewhere.

[cspwal]

or at least put them on a flat bed

[HouTXRanger]

Yeah, I was thinking, if they fit the gauge of the rail bridge they would've moved them last time, right? They need to work something out with a flatbed.

[cspwal]

They might not be legal to just put on the main lines.  The metro LRV are standard gauge, but aren't up to DOT standards to be be on the mainline tracks

[Houston19514]

14 hours ago, cspwal said:

They might not be legal to just put on the main lines.  The metro LRV are standard gauge, but aren't up to DOT standards to be be on the mainline tracks

 

If the gauge matches, they could surely get permission to run them on the main lines to get them off the island for emergency purposes.  However, since the tracks are not connected at any place, they would have to transport the cars to the main lines in some way.  Once they have loaded them up to transfer them to the main lines, it seems it might be just as easy to keep them loaded and haul them off the island.

[zaphod]

Well, it looks like Galveston dodged a bullet. So we'll start seeing these rolling eventually!

[CaptainJilliams]

Well guys, some exciting stuff! Via Postoffice District on Instagram, it appears the trolleys are going through tests, an encouraging sign for sure!

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/COLiZ0aBXCz/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

[zaphod]

I don't know if this was the intent behind building them in the first place, but a benefit of the trolleys is that they would encourage beach tourists to park in the strand/downtown in the parking garages there. People think the trolleys are cool and unlike a bus they seem safe and will take them where they want to go, which is down to the seawall. This is a graceful and fair solution to the problem that is tourist parking near beaches, it is better than either building huge surface lots by the seawall or alternatively not having enough parking and excluding visitors from Houston who have been coming to Galveston since the early 1900s.

Another thought is that when tourists park in the strand area they are more likely to eat and drink and buy stuff from local restaurants and shops that in between.

Also if people's cars are parked in a parking garage a mile from the beach they won't take coolers full of beer in glass bottles or whatever else...

Now there needs to be a train from Houston to Galveston again. It would make going to the beach a lot more accessible while reducing weekend traffic congestion from the island and during storm events the train would be a high capacity evacuation shuttle.

Edited May 14, 2021 by zaphod

[cspwal]

13 hours ago, zaphod said:

Now there needs to be a train from Houston to Galveston again. It would make going to the beach a lot more accessible while reducing weekend traffic congestion from the island and during storm events the train would be a high capacity evacuation shuttle.

Ideally the train should leave from East downtown, have a few stops on the way (maybe move Bay Area park and ride 2 blocks west to the train tracks and have a commuter rail station?) and terminate in Galveston

it would need to run 7 days a week at least every 30 minutes to really be useful; probably would mean at least 4 train sets. Biggest problem is just getting in/out of downtown Houston - that line is always busy with freight traffic 

[CaptainJilliams]

Thought I'd bump this thread with a video from HOUExplorer showcasing the trolleys in action. It's about 5 months old, but great 4K quality footage showcasing the vehicles and the line (HOUExplorer has some other great transit videos from Houston, definitely check their channel out!):

 

[k5jri radio]

 

 

Some Galveston TX residents and visitors refer to the local rail transit vehicles as "trolleys." Because they are powered by an internal diesel-electric power system (diesel engine turning an electric generator which delivers electricity to traction motors that rotate the wheels to move the vehicle), they are technically "streetcars."

Conversely, New Orleans LA residents and visitors refer to the local rail transit vehicles as "streetcars." Because they draw electric power (600 Volts Direct Current) from overhead electric cables by means of trolley poles contacting the cables, they are technically "trolleys."

From 1931 to 1965, Shreveport LA operated local transit vehicles with conventional rubber tires for street use, but received their power from overhead electric cables by means of trolley poles contacting the cables. Local residents referred to these vehicles as "trolleys", which is technically correct.

Note 1: The metal wheels complete the electrical circuit for rail trolleys by their contact with the metal rails, which are at ground (zero volts) potential and pose no electrical hazard to passengers.

Note 2: Rubber tired trolleys need a double section overhead trolley system: one section at operating voltage, the other section at ground (zero volts) potential to complete the electrical circuit.     

[Reefmonkey]

1 hour ago, k5jri radio said:

 

 

Some Galveston TX residents and visitors refer to the local rail transit vehicles as "trolleys." Because they are powered by an internal diesel-electric power system (diesel engine turning an electric generator which delivers electricity to traction motors that rotate the wheels to move the vehicle), they are technically "streetcars."

Conversely, New Orleans LA residents and visitors refer to the local rail transit vehicles as "streetcars." Because they draw electric power (600 Volts Direct Current) from overhead electric cables by means of trolley poles contacting the cables, they are technically "trolleys."

From 1931 to 1965, Shreveport LA operated local transit vehicles with conventional rubber tires for street use, but received their power from overhead electric cables by means of trolley poles contacting the cables. Local residents referred to these vehicles as "trolleys", which is technically correct.

Note 1: The metal wheels complete the electrical circuit for rail trolleys by their contact with the metal rails, which are at ground (zero volts) potential and pose no electrical hazard to passengers.

Note 2: Rubber tired trolleys need a double section overhead trolley system: one section at operating voltage, the other section at ground (zero volts) potential to complete the electrical circuit.     

I've looked around, but I can't find any sources that corroborate your distinctions between "streetcar" and "trolley." Everything I have read says "streetcar" "trolley" and "tram" are all interchangeable terms for a vehicle that runs on a tramway track on city streets, regardless of whether it has its own internal combustion engine, or draws power from an outside source like electric power lines. The only thing I have seen is that trolley is slightly more preferred in the eastern US and streetcar is slightly more preferred in the western part of the country.

If you think about it, it makes perfect sense that the use of the term "trolley" would not be limited to those drawing power from overhead electric lines, since the first use of the term trolley was to refer to horsedrawn trolleys. And the St. Charles Streetcar line in New Orleans was originally horse-drawn, so again, interchangeable, regardless of power source.

I've also found that rubber tired vehicles that draw electricity from overhead wires like the Shreveport example are distinguished from the above two terms, and they are called a "trolleybus"

And the buses that are made to look like old-fashioned streetcars but run on rubber tires with an internal combustion engine are called "tourist trolleys", "road trolleys" or "tourist replica buses"

Apparently here "tram" can also be used for rubber-tire trackless trains.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Reefmonkey

[Houston19514]

trolley (n.)

1823, in Suffolk dialect, "a cart," especially one with wheels flanged for running on a track (1858), probably from troll (v.) in the sense of "to roll." Sense transferred to "device used to transmit electric current to streetcars, consisting of a trolley wheel which makes contact with the overhead wires" (1888), then "streetcar drawing power by a trolley" (1891), which probably is short for trolley-car, attested from 1889.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/trolley

[Reefmonkey]

When you look at the above etymology, its own sources call into doubt the suggestion of a strict distinction.

Its 1888 and 1891 sources both refer to streetcars being powered by electrical power. At best, you could conclude from this that a trolley is a subset, or type of streetcar. Already that is contrary to k5's assertion that "streetcar" isn't the correct term for New Orleans' railed transportation. Even if trolleys were a type of streetcar that runs on overhead electricity, that would still make it perfectly correct to call a New Orleans "trolley" a streetcar, in the same way it is perfectly correct to call a sloop a sailboat. It really makes sense that "streetcar" would be a generic term for a vehicle that runs on track on a city street, regardless of method of propulsion, since the original use for the term "car" was established in the US in the 1820s to refer to rail cars, which were horse-drawn at first. Even once railways transitioned to steam, the cars, which are unpowered, were always clearly distinguished from the locomotive engine, which did the pulling. A streetcar is simply a railcar that runs on tracks in the city streets, and originally were pulled by horses. Having an internal combustion engine has nothing to do with whether it is a streetcar or not - San Francisco's cable cars, for instance, are a type of streetcar, even though they don't have integral propulsion (they latch onto a moving cable that runs below the street).

Next, there is the etymology's reference to use of the term trolley for a cart, especially one with wheels flanged for running on a track, which is attested to 1858. The first electrically powered urban rail line didn't operate until 1875, yet this etymology attests to the term being applied to a wheeled vehicle on a track 17 years before that. If the term "trolley" was being used for a vehicle that runs on a track 17 years before the first vehicle on a track was powered by electricity, it stretches credulity to claim that the use of "trolley" for a vehicle on a track, that runs on electricity, came from a borrowing of the term for the "trolleywheel" mechanism that transfered electricity to the trolley, rather than the already established use of trolley to refer to a vehicle on a track. More likely the reverse.

Guys, I love etymological dictionaries as much as anyone, but etymology is far from an exact science. The entries rely on the writer poring through old books and newspapers to try to find the earliest use of a word, and different writers may find different sources that lead them down different paths to different conclusions. Plus there is a lot of conjecture to fill in the gaps, hence the above etymology's multiple use of the term "probably."

In the end, English being the informal language that it is, widespread and prolonged use of a term in a certain sense is what determines whether that sense is correct. Streetcar and trolley have been used interchangeably in the US, depending on region, for at least 150 years.

[mkultra25]

"A Trolley Named Desire" just doesn't roll off the tongue with the same gravitas.

[Reefmonkey]

And "Streetcar" would never have been as friendly and inviting name for Trolley, the self-aware trolley that took us to The Land of Make-Believe on Mister Rogers' Neighborhood.

[k5jri radio]

More on Trolleys; Shreveport LA: When I moved to Shreveport, the trolleys (electric powered buses) had been retired for approximately 10 years. Several of the trolleys were on static display at a public park. Most people who rode them as passengers had good things to say regarding the quality of public transportation they provided compared to the diesel-powered buses that replaced them.

More on Trolleys; New Orleans LA: Although born in New Orleans, I do not live there. However, over the years, I have visited many times for business & entertainment purposes. The streetcars (technically trolleys due to the trolley poles drawing power from overhead electric cables, but commonly called "streetcars") have well planned routes and schedules that provide a quality experience. Many of the streetcar routes parallel existing streets, often in the median between divided streets.

More on Trolleys; Galveston TX: In technical terminology, the Galveston Trolley Cars are Diesel-Electric Intra urban Rail Cars, but in local terminology, they are called "Trolleys". The Diesel engine (prime mover) burns Diesel fuel to rotate a generator that produces electric power to drive the electric motors that, in turn, rotate the wheels. This is a similar setup (albeit on a smaller scale) to what is used to power most railway locomotives. The Galveston Trolley on board electric power generation setup eliminates the need for overhead wiring along the route, but adds to the cost and complexity of each of the rail cars. In the event of a failure of the electric utility power, the Galveston Trolley Cars, thanks to on board power generation for each car, will keep on operating normally.              

[Reefmonkey]

21 hours ago, k5jri radio said:

In technical terminology, the Galveston Trolley Cars are Diesel-Electric Intra urban Rail Cars,          

No matter what you say or do, you're never going to get me to call them that.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Reefmonkey

[k5jri radio]

Doodlebugs: In addition to the various types of Intra urban Rail Cars, variously called trolleys or streetcars, Inter urban Rail Cars, commonly called Doodlebugs, were once in common use to transport passengers and freight between cities and towns not large enough to justify running a complete train.

The Doodlebugs were Diesel-Electric or Gasoline-Electric powered Rail Cars that had knuckle couplers as well as standard rail trucks with air brakes and other features needed to operate on standard railroad tracks between cities and towns. Most of the Doodlebugs had separate sections for freight and passenger transport. According to online sources, a typical Doodlebug having a 400 hp Gasoline or Diesel engine (prime mover) connected to a DC generator could attain speeds up to 60 mph on level track, but seldom traveled that fast in regular service. Some, more elaborate Doodlebug designs had twin engine prime movers with 550 or more total hp. Twin engine prime movers offer redundancy in the event of failure of one of the engines.      

[CaptainJilliams]

Oof, little did I know posting such a simple video would've sparked such a debate. My bad!

[editor]

I think I've seen that play: A Diesel-Electric Intra-Urban Rail Car Named Desire

[Reefmonkey]

On 5/9/2022 at 7:48 PM, k5jri radio said:

Doodlebugs: In addition to the various types of Intra urban Rail Cars, variously called trolleys or streetcars, Inter urban Rail Cars, commonly called Doodlebugs, were once in common use to transport passengers and freight between cities and towns not large enough to justify running a complete train.

The Doodlebugs were Diesel-Electric or Gasoline-Electric powered Rail Cars that had knuckle couplers as well as standard rail trucks with air brakes and other features needed to operate on standard railroad tracks between cities and towns. Most of the Doodlebugs had separate sections for freight and passenger transport. According to online sources, a typical Doodlebug having a 400 hp Gasoline or Diesel engine (prime mover) connected to a DC generator could attain speeds up to 60 mph on level track, but seldom traveled that fast in regular service. Some, more elaborate Doodlebug designs had twin engine prime movers with 550 or more total hp. Twin engine prime movers offer redundancy in the event of failure of one of the engines.      

Doodlebug is also the name for a farm tractor made by converting a 1920s-1930s era car or truck, more often than not a Ford. This happened a lot during World War 2 when new tractors were not available because their assembly lines had been retooled for the war effort. Farmers would buy an older vehicle and chop up or completely remove the body and reconfigure the chassis and running gear. Conversion kits were available starting in the late 20s even, but wer expensive, so many farmers just did it themselves, leading to a wide variety of designs 

[k5jri radio]

Regarding public transportation between downtown Galveston (Strand area, etc.) and public beaches areas (Stewart Beach, etc.), my understanding is that conventional buses have provided reliable service and will continue to do so until all or most of the trolleys are repaired and able to resume service. One advantage of conventional buses is, in the event of a severe winds and/or flooding, they can be legally driven off the island via I-45 and other public highways and roads to a safer location until the weather conditions subside. The trolleys, as other members hove pointed out, do not meet current standards to operate lawfully on the railroad tracks connecting Galveston to the mainland. Lacking a prior commitment from the appropriate authorities that the trolleys would be allowed to operate on these tracks if there were an imminent hurricane of flooding event, it would be a mistake to assume in advance what action these appropriate authorities might take in this regard. In other words, a viable plan to get the trolleys off the island needs to be in place before the next disaster strikes.

   

 

[Naviguessor]

The trolleys can be moved off the island the same way that they were delivered…on flatbed trailers, over the road.  

[k5jri radio]

Moving the trolleys "off the island the same way they were delivered...on flatbed trailers, over the road" would be a viable method of transporting them off the island in advance of a major tropical storm. For this plan to work, flatbed tractor-trailers suitable for transporting the trolleys would have to be kept in reserve on the island, or readily available on very short notice from the mainland within the timeline of major tropical storm being predicted and its subsequent landfall at or near Galveston Island. Implementing such a plan would be costly, but past experience has shown what happens when the trolleys stay on the island during a major tropical storm event.

The Brill replica trolleys operating in Tampa, FL cost $745,000 each in 2002 dollars. Their right of way (single track with passing sidings) cost approximately $13,700,000 per mile. The Tampa, FL Brill replica trolleys receive 600 volt DC power from trolley poles in contact with overhead wires. Although similar in appearance, the Galveston Brill replica trolleys have onboard electric power plants (diesel engine prime mover connected to DC generator). The additional cost of the onboard electric power plants installed in the Galveston trolleys is offset by the reduced expense of not having to install overhead wires along the trolley routes. 

According to online sources, Galveston has an average elevation of 7 ft., Tampa has an average elevation of 48 ft. These elevation statistics do not necessarily correlate to the likelihood of flooding during tropical storm events. Prolonged heavy rainfall may cause water to accumulate in areas faster than it can drain off, causing localized flooding until the rainfall subsides.

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by k5jri radio
additional information

[editor]

Why not just float them off on a barge?  You could probably fit most of the fleet on a single barge.  Seem a lot easier than loading them on a bunch of trucks.

People have been moving trains on boats for a hundred years.  Freight trains are transported on barges in New York and other American cities every day, and in other parts of the world, passenger trains are carried on ferries.

New York:

Europe:

[k5jri radio]

The various postings about about what to do with the Galveston trolleys when the next major hurricane makes landfall at or near Galveston Island offer a variety of alternatives to leaving them on the island during the hurricane.

[1] Connecting the trolley rail line to the railroad line and moving the trolleys under their own power is doable since the trolley gauge (56.5 inches) is the same as the standard railroad gauge. The problem is the trolleys do not meet DOT and other agency requirements for operation on the railroad line. An application for permission to operate the trolleys on the railroad in the event of an imminent hurricane would likely take significant time to process, with no guarantee such permission would be granted.

[2] Transporting the trolleys over the highway with purpose-designed tractor-trailers (the same way they were delivered to the island) would require one tractor-trailer for each trolley to be evacuated from the island. It's reasonable to assume there may not be enough time for multiple round trips between Galveston island and the inland area where the trolleys would be stored during the storm.

[3] Transporting the trolleys by a purpose-designed barge, with capacity to accommodate most of the trolleys on a single trip, is doable if track connecting the trolley to the barge's docking area is already in place. Similar docking, unloading equipment, and track will be needed at the on shore destination. The barge would need a tugboat to propel and steer it to the on shore destination.

Options [2] or [3] would be costly to implement and possibly difficult to justify.

     

[Houston19514]

11 minutes ago, k5jri radio said:

The various postings about about what to do with the Galveston trolleys when the next major hurricane makes landfall at or near Galveston Island offer a variety of alternatives to leaving them on the island during the hurricane.

[1] Connecting the trolley rail line to the railroad line and moving the trolleys under their own power is doable since the trolley gauge (56.5 inches) is the same as the standard railroad gauge. The problem is the trolleys do not meet DOT and other agency requirements for operation on the railroad line. An application for permission to operate the trolleys on the railroad in the event of an imminent hurricane would likely take significant time to process, with no guarantee such permission would be granted.

[2] Transporting the trolleys over the highway with purpose-designed tractor-trailers (the same way they were delivered to the island) would require one tractor-trailer for each trolley to be evacuated from the island. It's reasonable to assume there may not be enough time for multiple round trips between Galveston island and the inland area where the trolleys would be stored during the storm.

[3] Transporting the trolleys by a purpose-designed barge, with capacity to accommodate most of the trolleys on a single trip, is doable if track connecting the trolley to the barge's docking area is already in place. Similar docking, unloading equipment, and track will be needed at the on shore destination. The barge would need a tugboat to propel and steer it to the on shore destination.

Options [2] or [3] would be costly to implement and possibly difficult to justify.

     

Good summary.  Regarding No. 1, it would seem they could arrange for pre-approval to make that option available in the case of an approaching  hurricane.

[Naviguessor]

So, it definitely was a mistake to leave the trolleys where they were when they got flooded.  Had they been on the seawall, where there are tracks they would not have been flooded, in the case of Hurricane Ike.   I have been told that in the event of a Major Hurricane, where a significant storm surge is anticipated, this where they will be taken.  That's a reasonable plan.  The Seawall has never been overtopped.  Certainly the trolley's could sustain some damages from wind, rain & Spray, but nothing as extreme as immersion.   Certainly, if there is a major storm with a significant surge forecasted, it would not take a herculean effort to find 4x suitable lowboy trailers to move them off the island.  This region of the country has more heavy haul equipment, and talent, available then anywhere else.   

[editor]

On 6/16/2022 at 5:55 PM, k5jri radio said:

[3] Transporting the trolleys by a purpose-designed barge, with capacity to accommodate most of the trolleys on a single trip, is doable if track connecting the trolley to the barge's docking area is already in place. Similar docking, unloading equipment, and track will be needed at the on shore destination. The barge would need a tugboat to propel and steer it to the on shore destination.

Options [2] or [3] would be costly to implement and possibly difficult to justify.

     

I think #3 wouldn't be as difficult as it seems.  Don't offload the trolleys from the evacuation barge.  Keep them on the barge and move them up the channel to a safer location.  I won't pretend to be an expert in how things are done on the Gulf, but I know that during inland flooding events, barges are often tied together into what look like large rafts for safety.  I don't think getting a tugboat to move the trolleys inland would cost that much.  There are lots of tugboats, and the city wouldn't have to own one, just arrange for the barge to be move, just like any other barge.  There's probably some written or customary standard for moving barges ahead of an approaching hurricane, so Galveston would just have to act earlier than that standard.  It's OK for the trolleys to be put away earlier than a regular barge, since they're not as precious to the city a a company's cargo is to a shipper.

[k5jri radio]

Regarding option #3, my assumption is that once the threat of a significant storm surge and or hurricane landfall is predicted, the city would hire (not buy) a tugboat with crew and otherwise make whatever arrangements are needed to move the barge loaded with the trolleys well in advanced of the anticipated landfall. Presumably the city could make prior arrangements to reserve tugboat service to move the loaded barge whenever tropical storm activity is predicted. If the trolleys could stay on the barge and ride out the storm while moored further up the channel, this would simplify the process and reduce the cost. With that in mind, option [3] would be less costly to implement. As you pointed out, in the event of an approaching hurricane, the city would need to act early to get the trolleys moved inland in advance of whatever customary standards for moving barges apply to commercial shipments. Because the trolley gauge (56.5") is the same as standard railroad gauge, it follows that a barge set up to transport standard rail cars would likely be suitable for transporting the trolleys in a safe manner.    

[Houston19514]

it seems like setting up a connection to the railroad tracks would be a LOT easier, safer, more efficient and less costly. 

[k5jri radio]

Thus far, various members have posted four alternatives to leaving the trolleys at their usual storage area in the event of hurricane conditions at Galveston.

[1] Connect the trolley tracks to the railroad tracks and operate the trolleys under their own power over the railroad connecting Galveston Island with the the mainland to a safer, inland location. The trolley tracks have the same gauge (56.5 in.) as the railroad tracks, but the trolleys do not meet the various legal requirements for their operation on railroad tracks. Proponents of this plan assume these requirements would be waived in the event of predicted landfall of a tropical storm.

[2] Load the trolleys onto tractor-trailers, drive them over the highway to a safer, inland location, and either offload them or keep them loaded on their respective trailers.

[3] Load the trolleys onto a  barge and have a hired tugboat move the loaded barge to a safer, inland location. The trolleys could remain on the barge during the storm.

[4] Move the trolleys under their own power to the portion of their track closest to the seawall, presumably the highest continuous area on Galveston Island. Their assumptions are [1] given its past performance during tropical storms, the seawall is unlikely to be breached or over topped; and [2] exposure to the high winds and wind-driven water will cause some damage to the trolleys, but not as severe as the damage caused by prolonged immersion in storm water. 

Edited June 23, 2022 by k5jri radio
grammatical error