Bridge Over Brazos St. At Spur 527

[iah77]

1 hour ago, Luminare said:

Not surprised. I understand their complaints and empathize, however its not the cities responsibility to subsidize businesses for whatever financial risks they undertake. Its the cities ROW, and they can change it however they please and whenever they wish, and as a business you should be prepared for such things. I'm actually really disappointed with Whole Foods now. I thought they were going to position themselves as genuine local option for that neighborhood, but instead they were actually seeing themselves a grocer for those leaving town after work going home. I thought they might at least be a little bit on board with this because it will actually make walking to that grocer a lot easier for the surrounding neighborhood without the cars dashing from all directions. For the others, again the city isn't responsible for your financial risks. You knew this bridge was closed, and yet you never adjusted your marketing or outreach to draw new customers in? As someone who is normally firmly pro-business and wants to open my own firm one day, I again understand their complaints, but at the same time free enterprise means that the costs good or bad fall squarely on you. What is the ole saying, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." They put all their hopes this spur would last forever to fuel their business and that is a substantial risk to take. That is not a wise way to run a business. Cities change and they are always adjusting and shifting, and as a business you should be agile enough, and flexible enough to maneuver ones self to the changing tides. Besides, ok the worst that happens is that they fail. I would hate to see that. I'm sure they are great businesses (supposedly), but I'm sure new businesses will gladly take their place to feed off this new change. Maybe ones that will embrace a new dynamic that is centered on the neighborhood and walkability, and not just a place you stop by before you go out to the burbs.

You sound ridiculous and assume people just have millions laying around to spread their eggs around. There are many small business on the road dude. It's not a subsidy either, the city needs to maintain our infrastructure that we pay taxes for. 

[Luminare]

1 hour ago, iah77 said:

You sound ridiculous and assume people just have millions laying around to spread their eggs around. There are many small business on the road dude. It's not a subsidy either, the city needs to maintain our infrastructure that we pay taxes for. 

 

This is nice and all, but do you have an actual argument to go with this? The only thing you proved is that you don't like what I said. You are fine to not like it, but that doesn't mean that you have an argument to go against it. I also didn't say anything you just said. I'm not talking about golden parachutes or whatever. What I said is real life. I stand by what I said. You also don't need millions to spread the proverbial eggs around. Starting a business is already risky enough, its harder when you push all your chips into one pot and just assume its going to work. You are just setting yourself up for failure

[Ponchorello]

5 hours ago, Luminare said:

 

This is nice and all, but do you have an actual argument to go with this? The only thing you proved is that you don't like what I said. You are fine to not like it, but that doesn't mean that you have an argument to go against it. I also didn't say anything you just said. I'm not talking about golden parachutes or whatever. What I said is real life. I stand by what I said. You also don't need millions to spread the proverbial eggs around. Starting a business is already risky enough, its harder when you push all your chips into one pot and just assume its going to work. You are just setting yourself up for failure

 

As an owner of mutliple businesses of which some are in the montrose/midtown spur this closure has effected me.  I entered into this market 8 Years ago taking risk when lower Westheimer was what you would call "seedy" however what I never envisioned would be the spur being closed down.  For me it was and has been a major traffic generator.

 

And yes you pretty much almost need a cool million to spread your eggs around.  Opening a business in this day and age is very expensive. I have 3 businesses in midtown/lower Montrose as well as another 3 in the heights and oak forest market.  It took me over a million to get my "eggs in other "baskets".  Each time I open a business I have invest at least $400-500k...you have to account for lease deposits, security deposits, utility deposits, build out costs, hiring costs, inventory, then cash flow for the first 6-8 months.

 

If you can show me a business that requires only $50-60k that produces a worth my time return then im all in.

[clutchcity94]

1 hour ago, Ponchorello said:

 

As an owner of mutliple businesses of which some are in the montrose/midtown spur this closure has effected me.  I entered into this market 8 Years ago taking risk when lower Westheimer was what you would call "seedy" however what I never envisioned would be the spur being closed down.  For me it was and has been a major traffic generator.

 

And yes you pretty much almost need a cool million to spread your eggs around.  Opening a business in this day and age is very expensive. I have 3 businesses in midtown/lower Montrose as well as another 3 in the heights and oak forest market.  It took me over a million to get my "eggs in other "baskets".  Each time I open a business I have invest at least $400-500k...you have to account for lease deposits, security deposits, utility deposits, build out costs, hiring costs, inventory, then cash flow for the first 6-8 months.

 

If you can show me a business that requires only $50-60k that produces a worth my time return then im all in.

what businesses do you own and can I get a Montrose resident HAIF discount?

[Montrose1100]

Is there a list of businesses complaining about this? Who would grocery shop at Whole Foods and truck it all the way to the burbs? My ice cream melts shopping at the HEB on W Alabama and driving 15 mins to the east end.

 

Seems strange since Louisiana and Travis still provide ample access. I just can't comprehend how bars and restaurants (and a grocery store), could be losing business over 2 blocks of additional travel to and from the spur. Are people so fickle that driving 4 blocks over to Milam to get on the Spur makes them stop purchasing from places? Sincerely someone help me out here.

[ToryGattis]

57 minutes ago, Montrose1100 said:

Is there a list of businesses complaining about this? Who would grocery shop at Whole Foods and truck it all the way to the burbs? My ice cream melts shopping at the HEB on W Alabama and driving 15 mins to the east end.

 

Seems strange since Louisiana and Travis still provide amble access. I just can't comprehend how bars and restaurants (and a grocery store), could be losing business over 2 blocks of additional travel to and from the spur. Are people so fickle that driving 4 blocks over to Milam to get on the Spur makes them stop purchasing from places? Sincerely someone help me out here.

I was a little surprised at first too, but it makes sense if you think about it.  Google Maps and Waze route many thousands of people daily up and down Brazos and Bagby between the spur and 45. Those people see Whole Foods/CVS/Specs/etc. and think "yeah, I need to stop to pick something up". If they don't see it, they don't stop, and they don't see it if they are on Louisiana or Milam.  Location and visibility are everything for most retail.

 

[wilcal]

19 hours ago, ToryGattis said:

Just came from the meeting at the Midtown Authority inside Houston Exponential.  About 50 hopping mad business owners who have made major investments between Bagby and Brazos and are seeing their business drop dramatically, including Specs. 

 

Are there even 50 businesses on Bagby and Brazos combined? I count 7 non-bar/restaurant retailers on Bagby and 6 on Brazos, but I may be missing some. 

 

Quote

Managers from the new Whole Foods were there as well and were not happy. Their customer traffic is way below expectations (no Brazos feed right now), and they think it will completely collapse if they get a homeless camp across the street. 

 

Homeless encampment is an understandable concern. Really not sure what the solution is with that. Definitely concerns about that at Randall's in Midtown.

 

People not stopping at Whole Foods because of Brazos being closed is borderline laughable imho. Only reverse commuters would be shopping while driving from the spur and the current "detour" might be 1 minute? It's not like there are a lot of grocery stores in Midtown. I've actually been walking over once or twice a week for light shopping, but still do my main grocery shopping at HEB in Montrose because of the price difference. 

 

14 hours ago, Luminare said:

Not surprised. I understand their complaints and empathize, however its not the cities responsibility to subsidize businesses for whatever financial risks they undertake. Its the cities ROW, and they can change it however they please and whenever they wish, and as a business you should be prepared for such things.

 

Yeah, pretty much. Making local roads move so quickly and dangerously that it pulls in cut-through traffic from the interstate is not a viable long-term strategy. Don't think I've seen any of the business owners in Midtown come out against NHHIP which would supposedly allow the downtown commuters to not drive through Midtown anymore and would certainly be shifting any cut-through from 45 -> 59 traffic away. 

 

12 hours ago, Ross said:

Without the spur to increase traffic, Whole Foods closes due to a lack of customers, as do some of the other businesses, then the spaces stay empty, proving once again that Houston isn't ready for GFR, because it's not economic if only local customers can use it. 

 

If this was an HEB they wouldn't be having any issues right now. They may have underestimated how many people will pay extra for a premium grocery experience. Not sure why there is an extra distinction being generated for this being GFR versus all of the other businesses in the area that don't have customers living above them. 

 

Also, that corner is quickly becoming the densest in Midtown and will certainly be so if the high-rise across the street gets built. 

 

3 hours ago, Ponchorello said:

 

As an owner of mutliple businesses of which some are in the montrose/midtown spur this closure has effected me.  I entered into this market 8 Years ago taking risk when lower Westheimer was what you would call "seedy" however what I never envisioned would be the spur being closed down.  For me it was and has been a major traffic generator.

 

The spur is not closing down. One of 3 exits and half of one entrance is closing. Traffic is being 600 feet away.

 

34 minutes ago, Montrose1100 said:

Is there a list of businesses complaining about this? Who would grocery shop at Whole Foods and truck it all the way to the burbs? My ice cream melts shopping at the HEB on W Alabama and driving 15 mins to the east end.

 

Seems strange since Louisiana and Travis still provide amble access. I just can't comprehend how bars and restaurants (and a grocery store), could be losing business over 2 blocks of additional travel to and from the spur. Are people so fickle that driving 4 blocks over to Milam to get on the Spur makes them stop purchasing from places? Sincerely someone help me out here.

 

Yeah, I don't get it either. I did the count above. Less than 25 total retailers on Bagby/Brazos even including the bars and restaurants and all of those cars are still driving through Midtown.

 

Then again, I don't understand why most of the local neighborhoods are against traffic calming measures when all of the roads in Midtown are designed to have non-locals speed through as quickly as possible. Locals are somehow worried about rush hour traffic, when they are all reverse commuters and they don't feel those affects. It's like, you live in the freaking neighborhood, you know it's not comfortable to walk or bike around because of the design of the streets, and yet you don't think that we should adjust these mini-highways? 

 

With the light cycles aligned for north/south traffic for commuters at rush hour, the locals (the people that actually live here) are actually INCREASING their commutes. 

 

I bet if the city put out a notice that they would make the north/south green lights twice as long so that commuters could get to the highway faster, locals would flip their shit yet that same logic doesn't apply to move the needle the other way in situations like this. 

[wilcal]

3 minutes ago, ToryGattis said:

I was a little surprised at first too, but it makes sense if you think about it.  Google Maps and Waze route many thousands of people daily up and down Brazos and Bagby between the spur and 45. Those people see Whole Foods/CVS/Specs/etc. and think "yeah, I need to stop to pick something up". If they don't see it, they don't stop, and they don't see it if they are on Louisiana or Milam.  Location and visibility are everything for most retail.

 

 

I refuse to believe that the businesses on Bagby are relying on cut-through 45-59 traffic for approx 4-6pm Mon-Fri. Whole Foods business model in Midtown is not based upon those people.

 

What business is currently benefiting from cut-through traffic? 

 

1) CVS. Fine. 

2) The Midtown Food Store?

3) Capital One Bank?

4) Subway?

 

Spec's is not visible from Bagby. 

 

 

[ToryGattis]

6 minutes ago, wilcal said:

People not stopping at Whole Foods because of Brazos being closed is borderline laughable imho. Only reverse commuters would be shopping while driving from the spur and the current "detour" might be 1 minute? It's not like there are a lot of grocery stores in Midtown. I've actually been walking over once or twice a week for light shopping, but still do my main grocery shopping at HEB in Montrose because of the price difference. 

 

I think its the lack of visibility more than the convenience. People just aren't aware it's there since the Brazos exit has been closed for so long. If you use Bagby southbound and Louisiana northbound you'd never see it.  It would probably have done better if it had been open a long while before Brazos closed so the customer base had built up. Then people would make the adjustment.  But I still don't see any realistic way the park doesn't become a homeless camp.  The city is stretched thin with limited tools as it is, and the police would prefer to ignore it.

2 minutes ago, wilcal said:

 

I refuse to believe that the businesses on Bagby are relying on cut-through 45-59 traffic for approx 4-6pm Mon-Fri. Whole Foods business model in Midtown is not based upon those people.

 

What business is currently benefiting from cut-through traffic? 

 

1) CVS. Fine. 

2) The Midtown Food Store?

3) Capital One Bank?

4) Subway?

 

Spec's is not visible from Bagby. 

 

 

 

Also Brazos northbound.  Specs owner said business is off 20+% since Brazos closed.

[wilcal]

7 minutes ago, ToryGattis said:

 

I think its the lack of visibility more than the convenience. People just aren't aware it's there since the Brazos exit has been closed for so long. If you use Bagby southbound and Louisiana northbound you'd never see it.  It would probably have done better if it had been open a long while before Brazos closed so the customer base had built up. Then people would make the adjustment.  But I still don't see any realistic way the park doesn't become a homeless camp.  The city is stretched thin with limited tools as it is, and the police would prefer to ignore it.

 

Only solution I could think of is to have it "programmed" by Midtown MD like Midtown Park and Bagby Park. 

 

It's unclear if the land would be in MMD's territory.

 

I also don't know how the mechanics would work or if this is even feasible. 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by wilcal

[ToryGattis]

1 minute ago, wilcal said:

 

Only solution I could think of is to have it "programmed" by Midtown MD like Midtown Park and Bagby Park. 

 

It's unclear if the land would be in MMD's territory

 

 

 

 

Programming not only costs money, it's based on having some sort of event space and/or stage. This will be a thin linear park with a bike trail. I just don't know how you would program that.

[Luminare]

18 minutes ago, wilcal said:

 

I refuse to believe that the businesses on Bagby are relying on cut-through 45-59 traffic for approx 4-6pm Mon-Fri. Whole Foods business model in Midtown is not based upon those people.

 

What business is currently benefiting from cut-through traffic? 

 

1) CVS. Fine. 

2) The Midtown Food Store?

3) Capital One Bank?

4) Subway?

 

Spec's is not visible from Bagby. 

 

 

 

Yeah this is where I put on my other cap and say to hold your horses. They certainly do rely on it, and while I may be in support of this change I also don't deny or applaud businesses losing customers which has definitely happened or we at least have to take their word for it even if these are chain stores. As for Whole Foods they clearly were banking on cut through traffic to make up some sort of difference in customer base that they neighborhood wouldn't be able to offset (which I don't believe, as there isn't a whole lot of options in that area. That HEB in Montrose isn't near a highway or spur and it does really well and draws both locals and others from nearby, but they also market the hell out of that store. This Whole Foods is in the center of it all. If you fail at this location then I don't know what to tell you.)

 

20 hours ago, ToryGattis said:

Just came from the meeting at the Midtown Authority inside Houston Exponential.  About 50 hopping mad business owners who have made major investments between Bagby and Brazos and are seeing their business drop dramatically, including Specs.  Managers from the new Whole Foods were there as well and were not happy. Their customer traffic is way below expectations (no Brazos feed right now), and they think it will completely collapse if they get a homeless camp across the street.  Jeff Weatherford from the City admitted the homeless risk but said a mitigation plan would be put in place - the room was not convinced.  Some of the business/property owners have already collected 800+ petition letter signatures calling for the bridge to be reopened, and they expect to collect more.

 

Jeff committed to keeping comments open until March 26, with a decision by the Mayor expected by the end of March.

 

They will summarize all comments submitted to BuildForward@houstontx.gov or www.buildhoustonforward.org , Reference Brazos Bridge WBS No. N-320445-0006-4

 

I'll re-link to my own thoughts on my blog here.

 

Didn't know you had a blog. I like it so far and read your recent entry. Will definitely keep a mental note of it. I also agree that the optics are not great, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a good idea, but instead is a very rushed idea. I think the NHHIP is going to have a domino effect for a lot of areas we don't know about or lead to scenarios that just weren't thought possible before because the system itself is very complicated. Its pretty obvious the City had already been in the process of doing this bridge, and then while working on this portion of 59 during the design process the stars aligned and they jumped at the chance to make a big move in this area. They should have held back on this and worked on it more and done very structured meeting and had the info they needed to present on hand.

 

One thing they should do immediately is to eliminate the private road going to Courtlandt Pl. Thats the part of this I've always detested. They should instead mandate that Courtlandt Pl be connected at Lovett Blvd and Taft. They should also connect Hawthorne and Holman. There are plenty of things that can be negotiated with this or places where compromises can be hashed out, but they definitely dropped the ball initially with this. I think again its just the case of the City getting a little overly excited, and not doing their homework. This is one instance where I'm fine with them slowing the process down a bit. Get more comments and feedback. Find compromises with local businesses owners, study ways to keep the new park programmed and active with uses, etc...

Edited March 6, 2020 by Luminare

[Houston19514]

20 hours ago, ToryGattis said:

Just came from the meeting at the Midtown Authority inside Houston Exponential.  About 50 hopping mad business owners who have made major investments between Bagby and Brazos and are seeing their business drop dramatically, including Specs.  Managers from the new Whole Foods were there as well and were not happy. Their customer traffic is way below expectations (no Brazos feed right now), and they think it will completely collapse if they get a homeless camp across the street.  Jeff Weatherford from the City admitted the homeless risk but said a mitigation plan would be put in place - the room was not convinced.  Some of the business/property owners have already collected 800+ petition letter signatures calling for the bridge to be reopened, and they expect to collect more.

 

Jeff committed to keeping comments open until March 26, with a decision by the Mayor expected by the end of March.

 

They will summarize all comments submitted to BuildForward@houstontx.gov or www.buildhoustonforward.org , Reference Brazos Bridge WBS No. N-320445-0006-4

 

I'll re-link to my own thoughts on my blog here.

 

The city has a mitigation plan for homeless camps?!?!?!?!   If so, why don't they use it for the seemingly multiplying homeless camps and gatherings all over downtown, Midtown, the Museum District, etc.  Sorry Jeff Weatherford, but you should be ashamed of even saying such a thing at a public meeting.  Not at all surprising that the room was "not convinced."  The people in the room experience the city's "mitigation" on a daily basis.

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Houston19514

[wilcal]

11 minutes ago, ToryGattis said:

I think its the lack of visibility more than the convenience. People just aren't aware it's there since the Brazos exit has been closed for so long. If you use Bagby southbound and Louisiana northbound you'd never see it. 

 

I guess if you don't live here? Pretty sure everyone that lives in Midtown or Montrose has driven down Westheimer/Elgin and seen the giant green Whole Foods lettering/branding on the side of their building. The letters that are also visible from the Bagby entrance to the spur.

 

Quote

Also Brazos northbound.  Specs owner said business is off 20+% since Brazos closed.

 

This is one of those situations where I could never prove that it's a fake number, but there is absolutely no way in hell that could be factual. They aren't even open when it is rush hour on Brazos.

 

To me, their claim is basically saying that their business is off 20% because reverse commuters can't be bothered to go one street over, from Louisiana to Smith, and as a result are purchasing their alcohol from some other non-specs liquor store? 

 

I like Bourbon and I'm a frequent Spec's Smith St shopper, and have made friends with some of the staff and we were talking last month about how this location is number 1 in whiskey sales in the entire country, and likely the world. This one store sells as much whiskey as the state of Tennessee consumes. 

They do have the spec's key system for tracking purchases, and there may be an asterisk attached to the 20% number, as in their drive-by traffic sales from non-locals are down 20%, but there is not a chance that their business is off 20%. 

 

2 minutes ago, ToryGattis said:

Programming not only costs money, it's based on having some sort of event space and/or stage. This will be a thin linear park with a bike trail. I just don't know how you would program that.

 

Sorry for being unclear, programming is the term that they use for any type of active participation from the Management District, and I was referencing their use of privately hired security from SEAL and one of the Constable's office. If the park could be under MMD's control, then they could enforce the rules themselves and prevent encampments like they do in their other parks. I would be surprised if they wouldn't jump at the opportunity for adding new park space for effectively only the cost of maintaining it. 

 

[Montrose1100]

12 minutes ago, Luminare said:

 

This Whole Foods is in the center of it all. If you fail at this location then I don't know what to tell you.)

Is it? It's kind of on the frontier. There isn't enough income east of here to support an HEB in the area, I don't think Whole Foods will be relying on 3rd ward and the East End for business. I'd bet Specs losing business is due to Total Wine opening up shop around Sawyer.

 

Anyone who can't google what's around them if they need to pick something up before heading home would likely be the same person who wouldn't bother with an urban-concept store because parking is confusing.

 

 

[wilcal]

15 minutes ago, Luminare said:

Yeah this is where I put on my other cap and say to hold your horses. They certainly do rely on it, and while I may be in support of this change I also don't deny or applaud businesses losing customers which has definitely happened or we at least have to take their word for it even if these are chain stores. As for Whole Foods they clearly were banking on cut through traffic to make up some sort of difference in customer base that they neighborhood wouldn't be able to offset (which I don't believe, as there isn't a whole lot of options in that area. That HEB in Montrose isn't near a highway or spur and it does really well and draws both locals and others from nearby, but they also market the hell out of that store. This Whole Foods is in the center of it all. If you fail at this location then I don't know what to tell you.)

 

I definitely understand how tight the margins are in grocery (grandfather was an exec for HEB for decades and made store managers keep a roll of pennies on their desk to remind them that every penny matters) and that cut-through traffic could make the difference between making it or not, but having unsafe streets in this area is a much larger hindrance to development than having access to groceries. 

 

Would Whole Foods not also receive a benefit from the Bagby entrance being closed to the spur and diverting all of the Bagby spur traffic onto Smith? 

 

You can go to their Google Maps listing and see how busy the store is on average by time and day of the week, and the 6-7pm slot is their busiest of the day on weekdays, but that's also the time that locals would be shopping. The weekends are still easily their busiest day. Their mid-day numbers, when there is zero cut-through traffic is 75% as good as their peak traffic between 6 and 7. Their 1-2pm traffic is about the same as their 5-6pm traffic. 

 

 

Might they get some people grabbing a juice or breakfast on the way in from Brazos? It's feasible but those people still have the option to do so and drive literally one extra minute to go there. 

 

 

 

 

[ToryGattis]

11 minutes ago, wilcal said:

I guess if you don't live here? Pretty sure everyone that lives in Midtown or Montrose has driven down Westheimer/Elgin and seen the giant green Whole Foods lettering/branding on the side of their building. The letters that are also visible from the Bagby entrance to the spur.

 

Actually I do live in Midtown, but like most Midtown folks, I avoid Elgin/Westheimer whenever possible.  And I'm pretty sure to see it going down Bagby you'd have to haul your head 90+ degrees to the left and look carefully. It doesn't help that it has an apartment stack on top of it, so people just glancing assume its just an apartment building (not what they're used to seeing for a grocery store). I'm just saying I regularly run into folks that aren't aware of it. I only knew about it and sought it out from reading CultureMap stories online.

[wilcal]

18 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

The city has a mitigation plan for homeless camps?!?!?!?!   If so, why don't they use it for the seemingly multiplying homeless camps and gatherings all over downtown, Midtown, the Museum District, etc.  Sorry Jeff Weatherford, but you should be ashamed of even saying such a thing at a public meeting.  Not at all surprising that the room was "not convinced."  The people in the room experience the city's "mitigation" on a daily basis.

 

 

City can't evict from TxDOT land which is where a ton of the encampments are (along highways). State won't evict because of fear from lawsuit. 

[ToryGattis]

2 minutes ago, wilcal said:

 

I definitely understand how tight the margins are in grocery (grandfather was an exec for HEB for decades and made store managers keep a roll of pennies on their desk to remind them that every penny matters) and that cut-through traffic could make the difference between making it or not, but having unsafe streets in this area is a much larger hindrance to development than having access to groceries. 

 

Would Whole Foods not also receive a benefit from the Bagby entrance being closed to the spur and diverting all of the Bagby spur traffic onto Smith? 

 

You can go to their Google Maps listing and see how busy the store is on average by time and day of the week, and the 6-7pm slot is their busiest of the day on weekdays, but that's also the time that locals would be shopping. The weekends are still easily their busiest day. Their mid-day numbers, when there is zero cut-through traffic is 75% as good as their peak traffic between 6 and 7. Their 1-2pm traffic is about the same as their 5-6pm traffic. 

 

 

Might they get some people grabbing a juice or breakfast on the way in from Brazos? It's feasible but those people still have the option to do so and drive literally one extra minute to go there. 

 

 

 

 

 

I just know that both the regional and store managers were at the meeting and they said it was performing very significantly below expectations.  

 

[Houston19514]

32 minutes ago, wilcal said:

 

City can't evict from TxDOT land which is where a ton of the encampments are (along highways). State won't evict because of fear from lawsuit. 

 

TxDOT land is not the only place where homeless are encamped or consistently gathered.  Further the State is supposedly doing once-a-week clearing in the Midtown/Museum District area, but the results have been undetectable.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Houston19514

[ErickEdgar]

On 2/21/2020 at 9:17 AM, BeerNut said:

With Brazos Street bridge gone, officials consider a different approach

 

 

 

 

 

 

It looks like they're eliminating the entry point on to Hawthorne/Burlington from Bagby which doesn't make sense to me. The road that extends south of Courtlandt in the proposals will essentially be a private entry/driveway to someones garage. If they keep Bagby south of Elgin, they should extend the road, as it is now, to Hawthorne/Burlington so it serves more of a purpose.

[cspwal]

One thing I've noticed with the Midtown Whole Foods is it doesn't show up in Google Maps without searching.  It will show "JuiceLand" and "Kasa Houston Midtown Apartments" but Whole Foods doesn't ever pop up.  Now of course if you search for "Whole Foods", it does drop a pin there, but it doesn't if you search for "Grocery Store"

I don't know why that is, and it will show up if you force it to re-search the area, but that can't be good for it's traffic

[Luminare]

1 hour ago, ToryGattis said:

 

Actually I do live in Midtown, but like most Midtown folks, I avoid Elgin/Westheimer whenever possible.  And I'm pretty sure to see it going down Bagby you'd have to haul your head 90+ degrees to the left and look carefully. It doesn't help that it has an apartment stack on top of it, so people just glancing assume its just an apartment building (not what they're used to seeing for a grocery store). I'm just saying I regularly run into folks that aren't aware of it. I only knew about it and sought it out from reading CultureMap stories online.

 

Yeah that just sounds like a lazy business. The ole assumption that, "Oh I'm Whole Foods, people will just come automatically!" That just doesn't work. Even the biggest of brands still have to do outreach and put themselves out there. Each time I pass the new HEB on Washington Ave its super packed, yet it also has apartments above it. Nobody ever mistakes it not being an HEB. HEB just knows how to get customers through the door. The HEB on W. Alabama doesn't even have its front facing the main road, yet its still one of there best performing stores. Each HEB you go near it jumps right out to get you. The one in the Heights has that nifty gimmicky HEIGHTS sign out front. The fact that the store has apartments on it has no bearing on its performance when there are many other examples that are successes with this type of store format. I just don't buy. If people in the hood don't know that its there then that is there fault and theirs alone. By now everyone in Midtown and Montrose should know of this stores existence.

 

Your point about Elgin is definitely on point. Its a pretty barren street. Virtually no retail, or restaurants. Those existing apartments really should go back and add retail to the bottom to get some life into that area. A reason why I support this proposal is because it make that environment more inviting to pedestrians which could in turn attract new businesses. I've walked this stretch many times, and its hectic, and dangerous with people rushing up and off the on ramps.

[KinkaidAlum]

LOL that lower Westheimer was sketch and risky 8 years ago. Montrose has thrived for 60 years and it has always been sketchy. I'd argue that's why it thrives. 

 

The issue facing retailers is AMAZON/Delivery and high rent. Why stop at Whole Foods and deal with a garage when you can just order stuff to your door? Retail is changing. There will be a lot of consequences. People that want ground floor retail and no surface parking tend to also be the types to order stuff off of Amazon daily. Can't have it both ways.

 

 

[X.R.]

2 minutes ago, KinkaidAlum said:

LOL that lower Westheimer was sketch and risky 8 years ago. Montrose has thrived for 60 years and it has always been sketchy. I'd argue that's why it thrives. 

 

The issue facing retailers is AMAZON/Delivery and high rent. Why stop at Whole Foods and deal with a garage when you can just order stuff to your door? Retail is changing. There will be a lot of consequences. People that want ground floor retail and no surface parking tend to also be the types to order stuff off of Amazon daily. Can't have it both ways.

 

 

 

Amazon doesn't even market Whole Foods the way HEB markets itself. HEB is like "come to the store, pick-up points are available for online orders" blah blah. They market it themselves like they are a grocery story with convenience options. Amazon is like "two hour delivery to your door is available." Amazon markets Whole Foods like a warehouse to store food to deliver to your door, which also contains an Amazon Locker for you to pick up your packages. Two completely different approaches. I can't believe Whole Foods would complain about lack of traffic, its not even their business model lulz. The rest of the businesses I'll stay out of, from my clients I know even small changes can have impacts.

 

The neighborhood patrons tho, sounds like the neighborhood patrons in my adjacent community the last time the city came to talk about bike lines. You'll always have some older contingent upset about change. Its like someone told me in the austin bike lane thread, residents buy it for what it is, developers buy in for what it may become. They are just whining about change just to whine @wilcal. 

[Luminare]

43 minutes ago, X.R. said:

 

Amazon doesn't even market Whole Foods the way HEB markets itself. HEB is like "come to the store, pick-up points are available for online orders" blah blah. They market it themselves like they are a grocery story with convenience options. Amazon is like "two hour delivery to your door is available." Amazon markets Whole Foods like a warehouse to store food to deliver to your door, which also contains an Amazon Locker for you to pick up your packages. Two completely different approaches. I can't believe Whole Foods would complain about lack of traffic, its not even their business model lulz. The rest of the businesses I'll stay out of, from my clients I know even small changes can have impacts.

 

The neighborhood patrons tho, sounds like the neighborhood patrons in my adjacent community the last time the city came to talk about bike lines. You'll always have some older contingent upset about change. Its like someone told me in the austin bike lane thread, residents buy it for what it is, developers buy in for what it may become. They are just whining about change just to whine @wilcal. 

 

The whole Amazon thing is also a recency bias in its own. People have had the availability to get groceries delivered to them for as long as there have been grocers and people with the money to do so. The internet just makes it faster. Before that you could always call a grocer to pull stuff off the shelf and have it ready or delivered. Before that you could hire people that would do the shopping for you and deliver it to your door. This isn't a new thing just the tech is different. Its the same with Amazon as a whole. I love Amazon. They are amazing. I now gauge just how we are doing in the world if I can still get two day or next day shipping without any hiccups. With all the mayhem people talk about todays world all I have to say is...yeah but I can still get something from across the globe in two days with Amazon, I think the world is doing ok. With that being said even they aren't a new thing. Amazon is basically and internet version of the Sears Catalog. Once again the tech is different, but the industry is the same. This idea that once a new tech appears that everything before it will just poof disappear is really annoying.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Luminare

[BeerNut]

4 hours ago, Montrose1100 said:

 I'd bet Specs losing business is due to Total Wine opening up shop around Sawyer.

 

I'm glad someone else mentioned this.  I have several friends that have become Total Wine converts and one of those friends switched their business purchases to Total Wine.

 

Whole Foods projections were probably ambitious. Whole Foods still haven't shook the "whole paycheck" moniker and the newness of the store has worn off.  In my house the newness has worn off and we're back to shopping at HEB even though it's a half a mile further away. 

[Ross]

5 hours ago, Luminare said:

 

One thing they should do immediately is to eliminate the private road going to Courtlandt Pl. Thats the part of this I've always detested. They should instead mandate that Courtlandt Pl be connected at Lovett Blvd and Taft. They should also connect Hawthorne and Holman. There are plenty of things that can be negotiated with this or places where compromises can be hashed out, but they definitely dropped the ball initially with this. I think again its just the case of the City getting a little overly excited, and not doing their homework. This is one instance where I'm fine with them slowing the process down a bit. Get more comments and feedback. Find compromises with local businesses owners, study ways to keep the new park programmed and active with uses, etc...

Courtlandt was originally a private street. the street was opened to the public to provide a means to get out of the area more easily. In the 70's or 80's, the residents petitioned the City to buy it back and make it private again, as it wasn't needed for access, and there were a bunch of people just hanging out in people's yards. If you look at the records, the owners of houses on Courtlandt pay tax on their proportionate share of the street. I doubt any of them are interested in the City taking it back.

[ToryGattis]

25 minutes ago, BeerNut said:

Whole Foods projections were probably ambitious. Whole Foods still haven't shook the "whole paycheck" moniker and the newness of the store has worn off.  In my house the newness has worn off and we're back to shopping at HEB even though it's a half a mile further away. 

 

Well, they have opened hundreds of stores and have a pretty sophisticated dataset to predict sales based on neighborhood, access, and competition. I don't think their projections are the issue here. They weren't counting on the freeway exit directly into their parking garage being closed.

[Luminare]

46 minutes ago, ToryGattis said:

 

Well, they have opened hundreds of stores and have a pretty sophisticated dataset to predict sales based on neighborhood, access, and competition. I don't think their projections are the issue here. They weren't counting on the freeway exit directly into their parking garage being closed.

 

You can't just jettison all those potential variables like they are nothing. There might be something to that. How do you know they are sophisticated? What info do you have? Please share. Like most things zeroing in on just one thing like the freeway closure is probably not the most logical conclusion in regards to why they aren't hitting their numbers. Maybe its multiple factors we don't know. I'm willing to concede that the freeway closure plays a big part, but again this was closed for awhile now. You even admit that they really haven't penetrated the neighborhood they are in yet, and probably haven't tried. They could have done more, and they didn't.