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2912 White Oak Dr

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This thread was originally created September 27, 2018. I'm reposting / reupping this because this post and other content from me are no longer available on the forum due to a mod removing my account and its content in "error"  (supposedly). The information may be outdated or no longer relevant, but reupping provides an archive to what was posted. It also provides a place to post future updates about this property if and when it's redeveloped  An archive link  of the thread before its deletion is coming.

 

When this thread was first created, it discussed the automatic parking garage proposed for 2912 White Oak Dr. However, 2912 White Oak and the adjacent properties at 2802 White Oak Dr (the building with Barnaby's Heights Public House, Rita's Italian & Frozen Custard and others) , 2820 White Oak Dr, 2914 White Oak Dr , 2920 White Oak Dr are a collective of buildings that are part of the mixed use named South Heights in the White Oak District in the Heights (not South Heights on White Oak which is a different retail building). But since there are separate threads for at least one or two of those properties (like the many buildings that make up Sawyer Yards ), I'm reposting this as its own thread.






The planned automated parking garage was first discussed in the thread for 2805 White Oak Dr. Since this is a separate project from the retail development at 2805 White Oak Drive named South Heights on White Oak, it's deserving of its own thread.


Discussions on the parking garage planned for 2912 White Oak Dr, between Tacos A Go A Go and Christian's Tailgate Bar in Houston. From the 2805 White Oak Dr thread:



 

On 2/20/2018 at 10:27 AM, Angostura said:

:o:o:o:o:o:o

 

This is the parking lot across from Barnabay's/Christian's. 

 

It appears like they'll do structured parking in place of the current single-story parking enclosure next to Tacos a go-go, which will open up this land for development. This is kind of huge, and may be the first of it's kind in the Heights: infill development of a surface lot by going vertical with parking.

 

If this kind of development catches on, it could really add a lot of pedestrian activity to major commercial corridors.

 

 

https://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/39010-2805-white-oak-dr/?tab=comments#comment-565061




 

  On 2/20/2018 at 11:15 AM, CrockpotandGravel said:

Site plan and map from the leasing brochure. The brochure shows the construction of a new retail development at the parking lot across the street from Barnaby's Cafe at 1805 White Oak Dr.

Brochure one (archive link)

Brochure two (archive link)

mqlyNgy.jpg

2WoUItU.jpg
 

 


 

  On 7/26/2018 at 9:06 AM, CrockpotandGravel said:


More on South Heights on White Oak at 2805 White Oak Drive in Houston.

From Houston Business Journal:

 

Dubbed South Heights on White Oak, the development includes a new 10,000-square-foot building at 2805 White Oak Drive, near the intersection of Studewood Street, said a spokesperson for the developer, Chicago-based My Park Easy, which is also behind an upcoming 3-acre project north of Memorial Park.
 

Currently, the roughly 18,000-square-foot Heights property is a surface-level parking lot, but the plans also include constructing a roughly 7,500-square-foot automated garage for 244 cars across the street. 

...My Park Easy owns about 2 acres on White Oak Drive, the spokesperson said and added that the company acquired the properties a few years ago. The properties, from east to west, go from 2920 White Oak Drive with Lucky Food Store to 2802 White Oak Drive, which houses a Barnaby’s Café, District Dental, Rita’s Italian Ice and Public House. Other tenants include Pho Binh, Tacos A Go Go and Christian’s Tailgate Bar and Grill.

..My Park Easy is also behind the upcoming Railway Heights Market, a mixed-use project that will include a 40,000-square-foot warehouse filled with vendors selling food, art, jewelry and more. It's expected to open in 2019 at 8200 Washington Ave.



https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news/2018/07/26/new-heights-retail-project-near-intersection-of.html


 



 

On 7/30/2018 at 9:40 AM, Angostura said:

 

 

When they originally submitted the plans for permitting back in March, among the comments they got back was that the garage needs to be permitted before the retail can be permitted, since it's required for compliance w/ Ch 26 (parking minimums). Appears plans for 2805 White Oak were re-submitted last week.

 

You can check on status here: https://www.pdinet.pd.houstontx.gov/cohilms/webs/Plan_LookUp.asp

Project number 17144910

https://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/39010-2805-white-oak-dr/?tab=comments#comment-571827



 

On 8/13/2018 at 12:43 PM, Angostura said:

 

Same entity has acquired Fitzgerald's. https://www.chron.com/business/article/Fitzgerald-s-property-in-the-Heights-has-new-13152404.php

 

Confirms suspicions they have plans to use the automated garage as a way to add a lot more commercial density to this area. Really interesting case study.

 

 

https://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/39010-2805-white-oak-dr/?tab=comments#comment-572663



 

On 8/14/2018 at 8:20 AM, s3mh said:

 

I think this Easy Park company is getting ahead of itself in Houston.  Its concept is based on maximizing space in dense urban areas by building vertical automated parking garages.  That is a great idea in areas like Philly, NY and DC where people expect to pay for parking when visiting dense parts of the city.  But in Houston, no one is expecting to pay for parking outside of downtown, the med center and some office buildings.  The garage at Highland Village is the only place I can think of that people will pay for parking at a retail development in Houston.  But that is a very high end shopping destination with a clientele that is not going to care about paying a few bucks to park.  Unless White Oak is going to be redeveloped into something completely different, I do not see very many people being interested in paid parking to go get $2 tacos or to get beers at an ice house.  

 

https://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/39010-2805-white-oak-dr/?do=findComment&comment=572683

 


 

On 8/14/2018 at 9:08 AM, LBC2HTX said:

I disagree. White Oak already has a shortage of parking, especially when the nearby residents feel entitled to b*tch at people parking on the residential streets. 

 

Also, Rice Village and City Centre both charge for parking. 

https://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/39010-2805-white-oak-dr/?tab=comments#comment-572689



 

On 8/14/2018 at 11:49 AM, s3mh said:

 

City Centre has lots of free parking.  The pay lot is just for people who do not want to mix with the rabble looking for a space in the garages.  And Rice and City Centre are exponentially larger developments.  People will park and spend all afternoon shopping and dining or going to the movies, etc.  People are not going to pay $5-10 to park to go to places like Barnaby's, Pho Binh and Christian's.  Anyone looking to drink a lot will get an Uber.  Everyone else will either find a space on the street or drive a mile or two to another restaurant or bar where they can find free parking.  Unless the developers can seriously up the offerings on White Oak, the parking garage will be a money loser.  

https://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/39010-2805-white-oak-dr/?do=findComment&comment=572697



 

On 8/14/2018 at 1:03 PM, LBC2HTX said:

Yet many people still choose to pay for parking, as evidenced by the metered spots being filled and the lines to pay the garage meters. Being a larger development doesn't mean anything - the Galleria is a larger development than RV and CC combined and yet all the parking is free.

 

What matters is that its a destination and that parking is at a premium, which is exactly the case on White Oak.   

https://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/39010-2805-white-oak-dr/?do=findComment&comment=572702



 

On 8/14/2018 at 1:04 PM, Angostura said:

 

 

They don't (necessarily) have to charge for parking for this to make economic sense. 

 

Consider the project announced late last year for the site between Fitz and Barnaby's. That was for a 2600 sf restaurant on a 12,500 sf lot. If you move the required 26 spaces for that project, plus another 78 into the new structure, you can now build 4 restaurants on that site instead of 1. Building ~100 spaces in this parking structure is like creating an ADDITIONAL 37,500 sf of develop-able land. At $70/sf, HCAD's current valuation, that means that if you can build parking at less than $28,000 per space, you come out ahead, even if you don't charge a nickel for it. Some lazy Googling indicates that robotic parking systems can come in around $20k-30k per space. I assume that includes margin for the provider of the parking system, but in this case, the developer is also the provider, so the actual cost may be even lower.

 

Why do this in Houston, instead of NY, DC, SF or other places with much higher land values? I can think of a couple possibilities:

 

1 - In Houston you can change land use and add density by right, without having to ask for zoning changes, so it may be possible to get a demonstration project like this in place faster than in other jurisdictions.

 

2 - The land value in those other cities is already high enough to justify traditional structured parking for any new development, whereas this part of Houston has a land value right in the sweet spot: not quite high enough to justify traditional structured parking, but high enough for robotic parking to make sense.

 

https://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/39010-2805-white-oak-dr/?do=findComment&comment=572703



 

On 8/14/2018 at 1:07 PM, Angostura said:

Oh, and there's ALREADY paid parking on White Oak. The lot on Threkeld is $7, I think.

https://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/39010-2805-white-oak-dr/?do=findComment&comment=572704



 

On 8/14/2018 at 1:09 PM, Angostura said:

And every restaurant where valet parking is really the only option is effectively paid parking. Even when it's "complimentary". 

 

And I'm not sure the robot parking system is any less trustworthy than your average valet parking operator.

https://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/39010-2805-white-oak-dr/?do=findComment&comment=572705






 

 

Edited by CrockpotandGravel

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This was originally posted September 27, 2018 in the previous thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive . It's being reposted / reupped since the original thread and other content from me were removed. 
 


 

More on the parking garage proposed for 2912 White Oak Dr, between Tacos A Go A Go and Christian's Tailgate Bar in Houston.



From Swamplot in February:

 

 

 

Last December a demolition permit was filed on the car hangar parked between Tacos A Go Go and Christian’s Tailgate on the north side of White Oak Dr. Now, a leasing flyer for a neighboring development indicates a new 244-car garage is proposed in place of the existing structure. But that lot measures only 100 by 140 ft. How could 244 parking spaces fit on a lot where fewer than 20 spots exist now?
 

Well, what if the owner of the property was connected to Easy Park, a developer specializing in automated parking garages? An entity associated with the developer bought the garage at 2912 White Oak in 2016 along with the strip of 3 buildings around it — that includes Tacos A Go Go, Pho Binh Heights, and Lucky Food Mart to the west, and Barnaby’s Cafe and Public House Heights to the east. The Chicago-based company manufactures parts for automated parking developments, finances them, and operates them. It’s been involved in past projects in New York, Philadelphia, Vancouver, Washington D.C., and Mexico City.
 

Here’s what a robo-valet with parts produced by Easy Park looks like inside The Lift at Juniper St., an 8-story, 228-car garage in Philadelphia:
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvQw7MBpb5Y



 

http://swamplot.com/is-a-high-tech-taco-adjacent-parking-garage-coming-to-white-oak-dr/2018-02-26/





UwwRppZ.jpg


 

Edited by CrockpotandGravel

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This was originally posted September 27, 2018 in the previous thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive . It's being reposted / reupped since the original thread and other content from me were removed. 
 


 

More on the automated robotic parking garage planned for 2912 White Oak Dr, between Tacos A Go A Go and Christian's Tailgate Bar in Houston.




From Houston Chronicle:



..."The idea behind this is a valet experience without the valet," Yair Goldberg, executive vice president of sales and marketing for Unitronics, said. "The only interface the driver has with the system is through the entry compartment, which is the size of a two-car garage."

The process works like this this: A driver pulls into a parking bay, takes the keys and exits the vehicle, initiating the parking process through an app or by pulling a parking ticket. Through a system of horizontal and vertical lifts, the car is then moved into a storage spot.

 

The driver can retrieve the car through the app or after paying a parking fee, which triggers the automated system to load the vehicle from its spot and deliver it to its owner.

Through the app, the driver is informed of the status of the vehicle, similar to how Uber notifies users of their driver's ETA.

Taking out the human element allows more cars to be stored in smaller spaces -- sometimes a third of what would be required in a traditional garage, Goldberg said.

 

 

The other Houston garage is planned on White Oak Drive in the Heights. It's expected to be able to store around 200 cars in a structure no taller than 75 feet and with a 6,500-square-foot footprint.
 

...U-tron will develop the systems for a Chicago-based development group.
 

"U-tron's automated parking design enables us to develop and optimize both the commercial and residential aspects of our developments, while improving the return on investment and delivering a first-in-class parking experience" Jesse Levine, of Easy Park, the development company behind the projects, said in a statement.




A video of how the garage will work is available in the Houston Chronicle article.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/real-estate/article/Futuristic-parking-garage-planned-for-inner-loop-13254850.php

 

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This was in the previous thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive . It's being reposted / reupped since the original thread and other content from me were removed. 
 


Originally posted by s3mh, September 27, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.



I wonder what the contractual relationship between the vendor and the landlord that owns the new retail development is like.  My main concern about this parking concept (aside from architecture) is that the wait times to get in and out and the pricing will deter most people from using the garage.  That will exacerbate the problems of illegal parking in residential neighborhoods and may cause the vendor for the garage to go out of business.  Then what?  The retail shops cannot stay open if the garage closes.  

 

Edited by CrockpotandGravel

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This was in the previous thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive . It's being reposted / reupped since the original thread and other content from me were removed. 
 


Originally posted by Visitor, September 27, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.



 

I'll reserve judgment on the fees until I see them. But I am always in favor of parking structures over street parking and the useless Houston valet. (Seriously irritating when all of the spaces are marked for valet and I have to tip someone for parking my car 10 ft from where I gave it to them)

 

I do have concerns over the wait times both to enter and leave. What happens when some putz pays for his car from the app while at the bar and takes 20 minutes to get out there and leave? Hopefully there is a time limit and additional cost. 


 

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This was in the previous thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive . It's being reposted / reupped since the original thread and other content from me were removed. 
 



Originally posted by Texasota, September 27, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.




What does "illegal parking in residential neighborhoods" mean? How many nearby streets have residents-only parking permits? 

 

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This was in the previous thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive . It's being reposted / reupped since the original thread and other content from me were removed. 
 




Originally posted by s3mh September 27, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.


 

  On 9/27/2018 at 12:18 PM, Texasota said:

What does "illegal parking in residential neighborhoods" mean? How many nearby streets have residents-only parking permits?


 

It means blocking driveways, parking in no parking zones, and parking on a street with open drainage ditches by taking up about half the street because you do not want the rims on your X5 to get dirty (or you just are inept and cannot parallel park to save your life).  On busy nights, people can really make a mess of the residential streets around White Oak.  I usually have no sympathy for people who get bent out of shape about Coltivare.  But every time I have had dinner there (I go at 5 pm to avoid the wait), I see some pretty unbelievable things people do with their cars instead of just going up another block or two to find a free space.  Of course, the City should do much more to mitigate this by ramping up enforcement and restricting parking to one side of the street on the more narrow open ditch streets.  But the city has done very little despite some very vocal residents.  So, no, this is not about fussy neighbors who want to be able to park their car in front of their house every night.  It is about a level of commercial density that is pushing a substantial amount of parking into the neighborhoods.  Combine that with a very suburban and strip center oriented population, and you get a situation where residents are blocked in their driveways or cannot get down streets because of bad drivers on busy nights.

 

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This was in the previous thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive . It's being reposted / reupped since the original thread and other content from me were removed. 
 




Originally posted by Luminare, September 27, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.



 

  On 9/27/2018 at 10:56 AM, s3mh said:

I wonder what the contractual relationship between the vendor and the landlord that owns the new retail development is like.  My main concern about this parking concept (aside from architecture) is that the wait times to get in and out and the pricing will deter most people from using the garage.  That will exacerbate the problems of illegal parking in residential neighborhoods and may cause the vendor for the garage to go out of business.  Then what?  The retail shops cannot stay open if the garage closes.  

 


From watching the video. It seems like it will take no more time than it normally takes one to walk/find their car, get it, and drive out. From the video it actually looks like this will take way less time and be way more efficient. I'm all for maximizing ones autonomy to do what they want, but then there are instances where it doesn't make sense. Our current use of parking garages is one of those where I would be more in favor of something that maximizes efficiency. If we have the tech to do this then we should.


 

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This was in the previous thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive . It's being reposted / reupped since the original thread and other content from me were removed. 
 




Originally posted by Angostura, September 27, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 

  On 9/27/2018 at 10:56 AM, s3mh said:

I wonder what the contractual relationship between the vendor and the landlord that owns the new retail development is like.  My main concern about this parking concept (aside from architecture) is that the wait times to get in and out and the pricing will deter most people from using the garage.  That will exacerbate the problems of illegal parking in residential neighborhoods and may cause the vendor for the garage to go out of business.  Then what?  The retail shops cannot stay open if the garage closes.  



 

My understanding is that, in this case, the vendor IS the landlord. 

 

Either way, as long as the garage exists (and is in working order), the development is in compliance with Chapter 26, whether or not patrons opt to use it.

 

 

Edited by CrockpotandGravel

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This was in the previous thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive . It's being reposted / reupped since the original thread and other content from me were removed. 
 




Originally posted by Evil Developer, September 27, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 

it should help with the parking at Fitz as well, assuming they are keeping that structure, and that is likely a bad assumption....

 

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This was in the previous thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive . It's being reposted / reupped since the original thread and other content from me were removed. 
 





Originally posted by s3mh, September 27, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.


 

  On 9/27/2018 at 2:05 PM, Luminare said:

 

From watching the video. It seems like it will take no more time than it normally takes one to walk/find their car, get it, and drive out. From the video it actually looks like this will take way less time and be way more efficient. I'm all for maximizing ones autonomy to do what they want, but then there are instances where it doesn't make sense. Our current use of parking garages is one of those where I would be more in favor of something that maximizes efficiency. If we have the tech to do this then we should.


 

The video has a lot of editing.  But the main issue is not how fast the automated system can get a car parked.  The main issue is how many cars can the system park/retrieve at one time?  It looks like there would be only 2 or 3 lifts.  That is like having a parking lot where only 2 or 3 cars can go in at one time and you have to wait for those cars to park before you can get into the parking lot.  If you have 6-8 cars try to park while 3-4 people are trying to get their cars out, you are going to end up with a line for the garage which will cause people to skip the fee and look for street parking.  It looks like the app will be used to prioritize incoming vehicles, which would help.  But then people who need to leave will have to wait a long time and never want to use the system again. 

 

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This was in the previous thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive . It's being reposted / reupped since the original thread and other content from me were removed. 
 




Originally posted by Angostura, September 28, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.


 

  On 9/27/2018 at 3:04 PM, Evil Developer said:

it should help with the parking at Fitz as well, assuming they are keeping that structure, and that is likely a bad assumption....



 

Since this is providing the required minimum parking for the existing retail on the north side of White Oak and the new retail on the south side, won't most of this need to be dedicated exclusively for those tenants?


 

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This was in the previous thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive . It's being reposted / reupped since the original thread and other content from me were removed. 
 




Originally posted by Angostura, September 28, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.


 
 

  On 9/27/2018 at 5:24 PM, s3mh said:

 

The video has a lot of editing.  But the main issue is not how fast the automated system can get a car parked.  The main issue is how many cars can the system park/retrieve at one time?  It looks like there would be only 2 or 3 lifts.  That is like having a parking lot where only 2 or 3 cars can go in at one time and you have to wait for those cars to park before you can get into the parking lot.  If you have 6-8 cars try to park while 3-4 people are trying to get their cars out, you are going to end up with a line for the garage which will cause people to skip the fee and look for street parking.  It looks like the app will be used to prioritize incoming vehicles, which would help.  But then people who need to leave will have to wait a long time and never want to use the system again. 

 

 



I wouldn't expect it to be appreciably different from valet parking. Since we have to provide parking, and since this does it without the density penalty of surface lots and in a smaller footprint than a traditional parking structure, there's a lot to like about it.

 

If people are really concerned about street parking :rolleyes: there's an easy solution: stop under-pricing street parking. 




 

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This was in the previous thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive . It's being reposted / reupped since the original thread and other content from me were removed. 
 




Originally posted by thedistrict84, September 28, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.


 

  On 9/27/2018 at 5:24 PM, s3mh said:

 

The video has a lot of editing.  But the main issue is not how fast the automated system can get a car parked.  The main issue is how many cars can the system park/retrieve at one time?  It looks like there would be only 2 or 3 lifts.  That is like having a parking lot where only 2 or 3 cars can go in at one time and you have to wait for those cars to park before you can get into the parking lot.  If you have 6-8 cars try to park while 3-4 people are trying to get their cars out, you are going to end up with a line for the garage which will cause people to skip the fee and look for street parking.  It looks like the app will be used to prioritize incoming vehicles, which would help.  But then people who need to leave will have to wait a long time and never want to use the system again. 


 

I’d like to know what would happen if there is a mechanical issue with the lifts. I guess the vehicles would be stuck in the garage?


 

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This was in the previous thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive . It's being reposted / reupped since the original thread and other content from me were removed. 
 




Originally posted by s3mh, September 28, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.



 

On 9/28/2018 at 7:15 AM, Angostura said:

 

 

I wouldn't expect it to be appreciably different from valet parking. Since we have to provide parking, and since this does it without the density penalty of surface lots and in a smaller footprint than a traditional parking structure, there's a lot to like about it.

 

 


The other option is to not overbuild in a primarily residential neighborhood and stop under building in Katyville where you could build a half dozen developments with tons of housing and retail.  But we do the opposite.  We cram everything into the residential neighborhood and treat the big tracts south of I-10 like they are in Katy.

 

This concept has been around for decades.  The only thing that is new is the automation.  I remember in the 70s going to downtown Boston with my dad and parking his Buick Century (what an awful car) in a garage that used an elevator lift to park cars in a narrow building.  You would drop your car off on the first floor in a small lot that could hold about a dozen cars.  Then, the parking attendant would take the cars up on the elevator to the parking spaces.  There was no line to get in because there was enough room on the first floor to stack up cars as they came in.  I do not know how this automate garage will deal with that.  It looks like people will just wait in line with their cars until it is their turn to pull into the automated lift.  Will that line extend out into the street and block traffic?  Maybe.  Will people ditch the garage because they do not want to wait in line and pay an expensive fee?  Definitely.  So, if you put up a six story eyesore to add a bunch of parking that no one uses and end up with even worse traffic and parking issues, there is really nothing to like about it.

 

 

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This was in the previous thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive . It's being reposted / reupped since the original thread and other content from me were removed. 
 




Originally posted by Luminare, September 28, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.



 

  On 9/28/2018 at 12:32 PM, s3mh said:

The other option is to not overbuild in a primarily residential neighborhood and stop under building in Katyville where you could build a half dozen developments with tons of housing and retail.  But we do the opposite.  We cram everything into the residential neighborhood and treat the big tracts south of I-10 like they are in Katy.

 

This concept has been around for decades.  The only thing that is new is the automation.  I remember in the 70s going to downtown Boston with my dad and parking his Buick Century (what an awful car) in a garage that used an elevator lift to park cars in a narrow building.  You would drop your car off on the first floor in a small lot that could hold about a dozen cars.  Then, the parking attendant would take the cars up on the elevator to the parking spaces.  There was no line to get in because there was enough room on the first floor to stack up cars as they came in.  I do not know how this automate garage will deal with that.  It looks like people will just wait in line with their cars until it is their turn to pull into the automated lift.  Will that line extend out into the street and block traffic?  Maybe.  Will people ditch the garage because they do not want to wait in line and pay an expensive fee?  Definitely.  So, if you put up a six story eyesore to add a bunch of parking that no one uses and end up with even worse traffic and parking issues, there is really nothing to like about it.

 



This seems to purely come from the standpoint of speculation, and while this might be your opinion I don't think, as an argument it holds water. Its ok to just say you simply don't like it. I don't think anybody here predicts it will be perfect system, but its certainly worth a try. The current valet model is essentially a human powered automated parking system, but horizontal instead of vertical along with human error. This seems to be the reverse. More efficient, less space dedicated to parking, less people to deal with, and the only point that breaks even is the "wait time".

 

I also don't really think wait time is going to be that much of a factor. I've been doing a lot of people watching at many places lately (especially on the weekend) and people do not care if they have to wait if it means what they are going to be getting out of it is something thats worth their time. Sure in every instance you will get some who just can't stand the wait and leave, but thats maybe 15%? Maybe even less. Your argument is predicated that 100% of people absolutely can not tolerate waiting. If this were the case then people wouldn't wait one hr for a seat at a restaurant or anything for that matter. Hell I see people everyday driving back home waiting for untold minutes to park in the YMCA parking garage downtown. By your logic they wouldn't even bother. Yet they do.

 

Your first position....I just don't understand what you are talking about. Nobody wants to go to Katy. What you are saying is completely contrary to how urbanism happens naturally historically, and how cities are implementing contemporary approaches to urbanism today. You seem to be a little to high in the clouds. Like some kind of Modernist master planner....."residential goes here and commercial there". What is out there in "Katyville" that warrants what you are saying? or is even worth it? They are obviously building it here because there is a clear need and its a neighborhood where people want to be whether you like it or not, or whether it makes sense to you or not.


 

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Originally posted by s3mh, September 28, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.



 

On 9/28/2018 at 3:45 PM, Luminare said:

 

This seems to purely come from the standpoint of speculation, and while this might be your opinion I don't think, as an argument it holds water. Its ok to just say you simply don't like it. I don't think anybody here predicts it will be perfect system, but its certainly worth a try. The current valet model is essentially a human powered automated parking system, but horizontal instead of vertical along with human error. This seems to be the reverse. More efficient, less space dedicated to parking, less people to deal with, and the only point that breaks even is the "wait time".

 

I also don't really think wait time is going to be that much of a factor. I've been doing a lot of people watching at many places lately (especially on the weekend) and people do not care if they have to wait if it means what they are going to be getting out of it is something thats worth their time. Sure in every instance you will get some who just can't stand the wait and leave, but thats maybe 15%? Maybe even less. Your argument is predicated that 100% of people absolutely can not tolerate waiting. If this were the case then people wouldn't wait one hr for a seat at a restaurant or anything for that matter. Hell I see people everyday driving back home waiting for untold minutes to park in the YMCA parking garage downtown. By your logic they wouldn't even bother. Yet they do.

 

Your first position....I just don't understand what you are talking about. Nobody wants to go to Katy. What you are saying is completely contrary to how urbanism happens naturally historically, and how cities are implementing contemporary approaches to urbanism today. You seem to be a little to high in the clouds. Like some kind of Modernist master planner....."residential goes here and commercial there". What is out there in "Katyville" that warrants what you are saying? or is even worth it? They are obviously building it here because there is a clear need and its a neighborhood where people want to be whether you like it or not, or whether it makes sense to you or not.

 



Katyville is a reference to development south of I-10 that has consistently gobbled up prime and very rare large tracts of land inside the loop for use as big suburban style strip malls.  The HEB development on Waugh and Washington is the first to finally break the mold.  Had developers built these developments up with mixed use, they could have built enough retail space to fit 20x what they want to add to White Oak.  Instead, they are going to put up a six story garage, which will be one of the tallest buildings in that part of the Heights, so they can cram in a few more restaurants on a street that already has big parking issues on the weekend.  If that is the plan, the plan better work and better not stick an eyesore parking garage in an otherwise beautiful historic neighborhood just to make parking worse because no one will want to deal with the garage.  Your hope that people will patiently sit in line to pay for parking is pretty Pollyanna considering that there are free parking options on neighborhood streets (thus the Downtown YMCA comparison is not valid).  This parking garage concept looks to just be a way to let developers buy their way out of the parking requirements and again leaving the parking and traffic problems to spill over into the neighborhoods.  


 

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Originally posted by Angostura, October 1, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.



 

I don't really understand the logic of decrying suburban-style development on one side of I-10 (Katyville)  and desiring it on the other side of I-10. We want mixed use on those enormous tracts of land south of the freeway, but we don't want mixed uses within our neighborhoods, apparently. "Urbanism for thee, suburbanism for me."

 

The best way to build a walkable neighborhood is to plat it out as small lots 1500-5000 s.f. each, with zero front and side setbacks and zero minimum parking requirements, and maybe a height limit, depending on street widths. Then you just turn people loose. People will build to the density that makes sense. Some buildings will have ground floor retail, though most won't. You may have some SF houses, some duplexes or 4-plexes, and some 6 to 20-unit apartment buildings. Retail tends to cluster together, and most of your needs can be met within a 5-15 minute walk. If you look at great neighborhoods around the world, they've usually developed in largely this pattern. I've lived in neighborhoods like this, and they're great. 

 

Even if Katyville were built out with dense mixed use, it'd still be "drive-to urbanism" since there's no neighborhood there to integrate to. The way you get to a development pattern where you don't NEED to provide 10 parking spaces for every 1000 sf of restaurant space is for retail, commercial and residential uses to gently mix within fine-grained neighborhoods (large numbers of small lots). Segregating uses ("let's put all the retail in Katyville") is what cements car-dependency forever. 


Density is upstream of walkability. And as long as there's still a minimum parking requirement, either de jure or de facto, fulfilling that requirement without the density and walkability penalty of a surface lot is a step in the right direction.


 

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Originally posted by Evil Developer, October 1, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.



 

  On 9/28/2018 at 7:09 AM, Angostura said:

 

Since this is providing the required minimum parking for the existing retail on the north side of White Oak and the new retail on the south side, won't most of this need to be dedicated exclusively for those tenants?

 



likely for now, but the same owner bought the fitz property, so one might think that this would also help to serve whatever happens to that property, or help to keep their options open...it all depends on the uses of the tenants they sign for the proposed retail building on the south side of the street.  Also there is the shared parking model, so they could be positioning to use that, instead of the other more traditional way, where you assign parking spaces for each tenant to provide enough for their use, with no regard to when their peak operating times are.

 

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Originally posted by  Angostura, October 2, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 


 

On 10/1/2018 at 4:11 PM, Evil Developer said:

 

likely for now, but the same owner bought the fitz property, so one might think that this would also help to serve whatever happens to that property, or help to keep their options open...it all depends on the uses of the tenants they sign for the proposed retail building on the south side of the street.  Also there is the shared parking model, so they could be positioning to use that, instead of the other more traditional way, where you assign parking spaces for each tenant to provide enough for their use, with no regard to when their peak operating times are.

 


I didn't realize (or had forgotten) that they bought the Fitz site. 

 

I also think it's likely something will happen with the project announced for 2714, which was to replace the two bungalows next to Fitz with a small restaurant and a large parking lot. The number of spaces announced for the garage is well above the minimum required for the new retail across the street and the parking that retail replaces.

 

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Originally posted by  Angostura, October 22, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 

 

For those interested in following along with permitting of this project, the project number for the site work is 18080801 and for the construction is 18090166. (These were not easy to track down given the unusual address.)

 

Plans for site work were submitted in July and returned with comments in August. Plans for the construction were submitted in August and returned with comments last week.



 

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Originally posted by  crockpotandgravel, November 17, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 


More on the parking garage planned for 2912 White Oak Dr or 2920 White Oak Dr (the address listed on U-Tron's website), between Tacos A Go A Go and Christian's Tailgate Bar in Houston.



From the developer's U-Tron and EasyPark's website:


A new shopping center located in White Oak, Houston, Texas. The proposed parking structure will fit 244 cars into a lot that currently accommodates only 20 spots.



THE REAL ESTATE IMPROVEMENT

U-tron’s stand-alone system provided 244 parking spaces over a small 60’x100’ footprint, which allowed to build a much larger commercial development on the adjacent site and accelerate ROI.



Type: Stand Alone
Levels: 10
Parking footprint: 77' (L) x 100' (W)
Opening: 2019
Developer: Park Easy
Architect: EDI International
Solution: U-tron Pace

https://www.utron-parking.com/portfolio-items/white-oak/



 

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Originally posted by EllenOlenska, November 17, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 

Ten levels. Holy shit. 

 

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Originally posted by thedistrict84, November 21, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 
 

10 levels. Even worse than we imagined. Wow.

 

Where’s Angostura? I figured he would have chimed in by now to defend his favorite automated garage. I hope he didn’t commit sepuku because his stock in U-tron tanked (because a ten-level automated garage in this part of The Heights is a horrible idea). 

 

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Originally posted by Angostura, November 21, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 

 

On 11/20/2018 at 11:15 PM, thedistrict84 said:

10 levels. Even worse than we imagined. Wow.

 

Where’s Angostura? I figured he would have chimed in by now to defend his favorite automated garage. I hope he didn’t commit sepuku because his stock in U-tron tanked (because a ten-level automated garage in this part of The Heights is a horrible idea). 

 

 

 

 

 

Ouch.

 

Still think it's better than 2 acres of surface parking.

 

 

Edit to add: I wrote back in February on the other thread related to this development that the garage would likely be 10-levels and 80+ feet high.


 

 

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Originally posted by Houston19514, November 21, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 


I suspect the levels are probably relatively  short.  Perhaps even shorter than typical parking levels.  This might be about the height of a 6 story office building.


 

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Originally posted by EllenOlenska, November 21, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 

Yeah, that's true. 

But I can't think of much that is even that tall around. Not the new unbuilt apartment block a block away. Not the hypothetical office building on Studemont. Not the abandoned condos or the apartments on Yale. 

 

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Originally posted by Angostura, November 21, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.



 

On 11/21/2018 at 8:58 AM, Houston19514 said:

I suspect the levels are probably relatively  short.  Perhaps even shorter than typical parking levels.  This might be about the height of a 6 story office building.

 

 

There'll probably be two different floor heights, one for regular cars, one for pickups/SUVs. The former are about 7-ft floor to floor, the latter about 9-ft. If the structure is half-and-half, it'd be around 80-ft total height. 

 


 

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Originally posted by Houston19514, November 21, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 

On 11/21/2018 at 9:37 AM, EllenOlenska said:

Yeah, that's true. 

But I can't think of much that is even that tall around. Not the new unbuilt apartment block a block away. Not the hypothetical office building on Studemont. Not the abandoned condos or the apartments on Yale. 

 


 

FWIW:

8-story Victoria condos less than 1 mile away -- 106 feet tall

10-story Elan Heights 1/2 mile -- 133 feet tall

Studewood Place condos less than 1 mile -  93 feet tall

Assembly at Historic Heights - Just over 1/2 mile -- 6 stories - about 80 feet tall

New Courtyard Hotel on Columbia - 12 mile away.  93 feet tall


 

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Originally posted by EllenOlenska, November 21, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 

Nice list thanks. Yeah when I said apartments on Yale I meant Assembly and the other one. And when I said abandoned condos I mean Victoria condos. You can see Studewood condos (which escaped my mind) pretty clearly from far away. Really dominates its surroundings.

I wonder how tall the garage will be in feet. 

 

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Originally posted by Houston19514, November 21, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 
 

On 11/21/2018 at 12:28 PM, EllenOlenska said:

Nice list thanks. Yeah when I said apartments on Yale I meant Assembly and the other one. And when I said abandoned condos I mean Victoria condos. You can see Studewood condos (which escaped my mind) pretty clearly from far away. Really dominates its surroundings.

I wonder how tall the garage will be in feet. 
 

 

 

See Angostura's post above, (approximately 80 feet), approximately the height of The Assembly at Historic Heights (the shortest of the five nearby properties on my list).

 

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Originally posted by thedistrict84, November 21, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 
 

On 11/21/2018 at 3:59 AM, Angostura said:

 

Still think it's better than 2 acres of surface parking.

 

 


 

I don’t disagree. Even better would be if the City hurries up and does away with minimum parking requirements completely. With ride sharing and Uber/Lyft more prevalent, and automated vehicles maybe 5-10 years out, there will be less of a need for parking and garages like this will be antiquated.

 

The City’s recent vote to extend the CBD to most of Midtown and EaDo (and therefore essentially eliminating the existing minimum parking requirements) gives me hope. 

 

And I know parking capacity is a concern held by retail tenants, but that too will change as more and more people move away from driving their own vehicles for the reasons specified above (plus hopefully extended public transportation and better walkability due to increased density in certain areas).


 

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Originally posted by EllenOlenska, November 21, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 

Also fwiw the garage at the Camden on Oxford is six stories high. 

 

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Originally posted by EllenOlenska, November 21, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 

I'd really like to know how tall the spire on the All Saints Catholic Church in the Heights is. 

 

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Originally posted by s3mh, November 21, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 

 

On 11/21/2018 at 3:59 AM, Angostura said:

 

Still think it's better than 2 acres of surface parking.



Typical beaten down Houston development standard.  Just because it is better than a Walmart, tote the note lot or a row of town homes doesn't mean we have to accept it.  There is no reason to overdevelop White Oak like this other than to line the pockets of some developer.  Radom is putting in 200k sq ft of retail/office next to the old Freedman building.  Braun has @25k sq ft of retail on 24th and N. Shep.  Market at Houston Heights on N. Shep and W 15th has 75k of retail sq ft under construction.  The train station thing on Heights and 11th is built out.  There are a bunch of big lots on N. Shep suitable for additional retail development.  The thrift store and insurance resale place on 19th are primed for conversion to new retail.  There is absolutely no compelling need to cram all that retail on to White Oak that we need to put up a giant vertical garage.  

 

 

Edited by CrockpotandGravel

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Originally posted by Texasota, November 21, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.

 

What does "overdevelop" mean though? I mean that seriously. I'm not necessarily saying that increasing density is *always* a net positive, but retail absolutely benefits from proximity to other retail. More development on White Oak will make it a healthier commercial corridor.

 

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Originally posted by Angostura, November 22, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.


 
 

On 11/21/2018 at 2:36 PM, s3mh said:

 

Typical beaten down Houston development standard.  Just because it is better than a Walmart, tote the note lot or a row of town homes doesn't mean we have to accept it.  There is no reason to overdevelop White Oak like this other than to line the pockets of some developer.  Radom is putting in 200k sq ft of retail/office next to the old Freedman building.  Braun has @25k sq ft of retail on 24th and N. Shep.  Market at Houston Heights on N. Shep and W 15th has 75k of retail sq ft under construction.  The train station thing on Heights and 11th is built out.  There are a bunch of big lots on N. Shep suitable for additional retail development.  The thrift store and insurance resale place on 19th are primed for conversion to new retail.  There is absolutely no compelling need to cram all that retail on to White Oak that we need to put up a giant vertical garage.  

 

 



 

It's great that there's lots of retail being added to lots of different parts of the Heights, but the use of the term "overdevelop" is question-begging.

 

The best way to not need 10-story parking garages is to put retail close to where people live. And as long as we require lots of parking for retail development, the only way to put retail close to people without acres of surface parking in between is to go vertical. So, garages like this are necessary so that some day we won't need garages like this. 

 

Ideally, we'd decouple parking provision from retail development, so that we could have smaller, more granular developments that share common parking across a neighborhood. But there are economies of scale in parking construction, so until we get rid of parking minimums, we'll still have rules in place that favor large developments over smaller ones. So if you're really worried about big developers making too much money, get on board with eliminating parking minimums.

 


 

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Originally posted by Ross, November 22, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.




You will always need parking, unless you think a White Oak type area can survive catering only to people within walking distance. I live 2.5 miles from White Oak(and don't use Uber or Lyft due to their stupid fight against reasonable background checks), and there's no way I am walking over there for dinner and then back, so there has to be some sort of parking. As it is, there are times where we just go somewhere else if there's no parking within a reasonable distance of White Oak.


 

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Originally posted by Angostura, November 23, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.



 

On 11/22/2018 at 3:19 PM, Ross said:

You will always need parking, unless you think a White Oak type area can survive catering only to people within walking distance. I live 2.5 miles from White Oak(and don't use Uber or Lyft due to their stupid fight against reasonable background checks), and there's no way I am walking over there for dinner and then back, so there has to be some sort of parking. As it is, there are times where we just go somewhere else if there's no parking within a reasonable distance of White Oak.

 

 

 

The greater Heights has a population density of around 7000/sq mi. That's about 2X the density of Houston as a whole, but probably about 1/2 what it would need to be before a significant proportion of customers arrived by means other than a private vehicle. (That said, on a nice day it's harder to park a bike than a car at Heights Mercantile.)

 

However, density isn't the only metric that determines how people get around. If we isolate retail in just a few places, along Shepherd, south of I-10, people will still have to drive to it. If we have healthy, high density retail corridors on Heights/Yale, Shepherd, Studewood, White Oak, 11th, and 19th/20th, plus eventually N. Main and Airline, pretty much everyone in the Heights will be within half-a-mile of at least two retail corridors.
 

 

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Originally posted by EllenOlenska, November 21, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.



Reading this conversation, it's hard not to think about the (long ago) tram that used to go down Heights Boulevard and stop and Heights and 20th. 

 

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Originally posted by mollusk, November 23, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.



 

On 11/21/2018 at 2:35 PM, EllenOlenska said:

I'd really like to know how tall the spire on the All Saints Catholic Church in the Heights is. 

 


It may be tall, but in area it's just a footprint in the sand.

 

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Originally posted by Luminare, November 25, 2018 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.




I, for one, welcome our new 10 story automated parking overlords.


 

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Originally posted by crockpotandgravel, May 1, 2019 in the thread for Automated Parking Garage In Development @ 2912 White Oak Drive.




From recent updated site plans, the automated parking garage for 2912 White Oak Dr may have been canned. 

The space between Christian's Tailgate and Tacos A Go Go was designated for the automated parking garage, but is now shown as retail.

The parking garage has been moved to the space next to Fitzgerald's at 2714 White Oak Dr. (thread about it here)



DdUnG7g.jpg




SP4agvE.jpg


 

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