Discovery West: Mixed-Use Development Downtown By Skanska

[wxman]

Developers in Houston have a very low bar for what they deem "exciting." A roller rink in downtown is not exciting. Putting a Joseph A Bank or a sandwich shop isn't a retail space that's going to get people excited and want to hang out downtown. A 20, 30 or 40 story building isn't going to cause a frenzy of activity. It would just be another highrise amongst a sea of others.

 

I think about other cities: San Antonio (Alamo, Tower of the Americas, Rivewalk), Toronto (CN Tower), Atlanta (Aquarium/Coke Factory), Seattle (Seafood Market, Space Needle), Nashville (Grand Ole Opry), San Fran (Golden Gate, Painted Ladies, Coit Tower, Alcatraz).

 

I realize not all those attractions are downtown and some of them are quite historical. What's my point? Why don't developers plant a landmark here that would be a draw for the downtown area? An example would be a observation tower similar to Tower of the Americas or CN Tower. Maybe a large, world-class museum? There's not a single thing downtown I'd want to fight traffic for to go see or hang out at. Hell, even a 100-story, really cool, futuristic tower with an observation deck would probably be enough to get people drawn in and spur other development. I just find it hard to believe Skanska has anything of the caliber listed above planned for this area. Hope I'm wrong.

[arche_757]

You sound as upbeat as I typically do.  I think - to make Downtown a more vibrant place - we don’t need a trophy tower or grand attraction, we need more boring infill of retail and residential.

[Angostura]

6 hours ago, nate4l1f3 said:

Probably unreasonable but I would have liked to hear buzz words like “landmark” or “game changer”. I’m sure whatever is built will be nice, but my personal expectations are high because I’ve waited soo long for a couple of those lots to be developed. 

 

I'm very wary of words like “landmark” or “game changer”. The bigger a project is, the longer it will take to improve when it turns out to be terrible. I'd much rather see a 250-ft blockface divided into 10 pieces of 25-ft frontage than one single huge building. 

 

I mean, how much nicer is this:

 

 

 

.... than this:

 

 

[Subdude]

1 hour ago, wxman said:

Why don't developers plant a landmark here that would be a draw for the downtown area? An example would be a observation tower similar to Tower of the Americas or CN Tower. Maybe a large, world-class museum? 

 

My fondness for observation towers notwithstanding, it's been done.  Remember the one that was proposed by the downtown aquarium?  People hated it. I think a landmark would need to be sufficiently unlike other landmarks to stand out.  

 

On another bent, reading the Skanska article I can't help but wonder how much retail can really be supported.  Right now one hears mostly about retail chains closing.  I would think the retail element would need to be limited to be viable.

 

 

 

[arche_757]

Additionally, observation towers that have been successful are also typically landmarks associated with something akin to a Worlds Fair.  Think Space Needle, Hemisphere Tower etc.  Now I’ve been to the Hemisphere Tower and it isn’t a great experience, and frankly spending time riding up to the top is wasteful when one could easily walk the streets of San Antonio and get a better feel for the city.

[West Timer]

✌️

Edited March 3, 2020 by West Timer

[Montrose1100]

59 minutes ago, Subdude said:

 

My fondness for observation towers notwithstanding, it's been done.  Remember the one that was proposed by the downtown aquarium?  People hated it. I think a landmark would need to be sufficiently unlike other landmarks to stand out.  

 

On another bent, reading the Skanska article I can't help but wonder how much retail can really be supported.  Right now one hears mostly about retail chains closing.  I would think the retail element would need to be limited to be viable.

 

 

 

I'm more concerned about the COH spending $ to improve Dallas Street to become our retail corridor when developers are stating "Discovery Green on our front door". Poor vision really. Retail fronting the park should have been a clear thought.

 

We don't need observation decks or rotating restaurant towers to attract people Downtown. Most of the landmarks Wxman is referring to aren't even in the proper "Downtown" of those cities - let alone something that could be created in this day and age. Part of the allure is history and we like to wipe ours clean. A Texas history museum would be a start. The city just needs some better planning. Discovery Green can't be a luxury or even middle shelf retail destination if the city wants it to be our tourist trap. I could see a ripleys setting up shop nearby or every single landry's restaurant opening up shop.

 

Anyways... Retail Downtown would be great. I currently have to drive +15 minutes to shop the retail I frequent (that includes groceries). Guess maybe someone with vision could turn south Main into a retail hub. Would make sense starting with Green Street to the Metro building. Let Disco Green become the tourist trap.

 

Skanska is going to give us some boring boxes here that might interact with the street better. Whatever they plan hope it blocks the Embassy Suites. 

[txtiger]

Flagship retail would certainly be great...

 

I'd still love to see a City Target put in, right along the curved edge of Discovery Green:

https://www.bostonherald.com/2015/07/21/opening-day-is-right-on-target/

 

Back over on Dallas St.:

A monumental Lego Store, w/ a Legoland Discovery Center (on the 2nd level of mixed-use, would stretch above other ground-level retail).

https://dallasfw.legolanddiscoverycenter.com/whats-inside/a-visit-to-the-ultimate-indoor-lego-playground/

 

An M&Ms store:

https://www.mms.com/en-us/experience-mms/mms-world-stores

 

And maybe even a Crayola Experience (maybe the 2nd level of mixed-use on the other development block):

https://www.crayolaexperience.com/plano

 

_____

 

Other urban diversion centers:

Chicago - https://navypier.org/

St. Louis - https://www.stlouisunionstation.com/

Seattle - https://visitseattle.org/neighborhoods/waterfront/

San Francisco - https://www.pier39.com/

San Antonio - http://www.shoprivercenter.com/shops/?genre=fun

 

^Loaded with observation wheels, flying theaters, Lego experiences, aquariums, mirror mazes, miniature golf, etc... 

_____

 

 

 

[Texasota]

I mean, it really seems like what you're describing is what Lovett is trying to do with the post office, except that the post office will be less generic and more specific to the city. It will even be close to the existing (though admittedly terrible) aquarium. A real market can absolutely be a tourism draw - think Reading Terminal Market etc.

 

My dream for Dallas Street is for it to draw international brands like Muji (or even Uniqlo, Zara, H&M) *and* even bring in some that aren't really in the market yet like Flying Tiger.

 

My impossible dream is for the Sakowitz building to return to use as a department store, except this time as El Corte Ingles, KaDeWe, orJohn Lewis.

 

 

[HoustonIsHome]

On 10/21/2019 at 3:19 PM, CaptainJilliams said:

 

Agreed. My dream would be to have a new aquarium/amusement park complex built near Minute Maid/Discovery Green.

 

If the highway cap park ever happens in downtown, that would also be an excellent area to have it.

Been saying the same thing. This area of downtown is screaming for new life and  always thought a new aquarium or other major attraction would be nice in that area. Theirs in a ton of shops and bright flasy nightlife and those hotels in the area will be constantly busy

[Avossos]

2 hours ago, HoustonIsHome said:

Been saying the same thing. This area of downtown is screaming for new life and  always thought a new aquarium or other major attraction would be nice in that area. Theirs in a ton of shops and bright flasy nightlife and those hotels in the area will be constantly busy

 

I couldn't agree more. The current aquarium location has served them well, but this makes more sense on the east side / near the touristy stuff.

[phillip_white]

2 hours ago, HoustonIsHome said:

Been saying the same thing. This area of downtown is screaming for new life and  always thought a new aquarium or other major attraction would be nice in that area. Theirs in a ton of shops and bright flasy nightlife and those hotels in the area will be constantly busy

 

Agreed. We need a real aquarium, not a restaurant that confuses tourists into thinking it is one.

 

[Texasota]

A *real* aquarium, with at least a vaguely scientific mission, would be fantastic. Maybe a partnership between the Museum of Natural Science and some other entity. Or almost a "teaching" aquarium with a university association? 

[Twinsanity02]

Something like the Aquarium of the Americas in New Orleans?  Or better.  That would be magnificent.

[ArchFan]

I think the Downtown Living Initiative was (and is) a really good idea.  A question in my mind regards whether it has built up the resident population downtown enough to support a lot of the things many of us would like to see created.   In view of that, I think it would be risky to build tourist attractions too early in the overall process of reconstructing a vibrant downtown for Houston. People who visit one tourist attraction will want to have others easily accessible nearby, plus interesting places to eat that are open after the downtown workers get off work.  We've improved in that regard, but downtown Houston (to me) doesn't offer as much to do as it did when I was a kid here in the 50s and 60s.

 

I think the "Mercado del Sol" project east of downtown is an example of investing public + private money too early in a particular sector of the process.  Perhaps the re-use of the Albert Thomas Convention Center is another example, but it does have a few surviving businesses.  Discovery Green has been rather successful and (I think) hasn't been completely leveraged yet.  

Edited March 5, 2020 by ArchFan

[Urban Monster]

1 hour ago, ArchFan said:

I think the Downtown Living Initiative was (and is) a really good idea.  A question in my mind regards whether it has built up the resident population downtown enough to support a lot of the things many of us would like to see created.   In view of that, I think it would be risky to build tourist attractions too early in the overall process of reconstructing a vibrant downtown for Houston. People who visit one tourist attraction will want to have others easily accessible nearby, plus interesting places to eat that are open after the downtown workers get off work.  We've improved in that regard, but downtown Houston (to me) doesn't offer as much to do as it did when I was a kid here in the 50s and 60s.

 

I think the "Mercado del Sol" project east of downtown is an example of investing public + private money too early in a particular sector of the process.  Perhaps the re-use of the Albert Thomas Convention Center is another example, but it does have a few surviving businesses.  Discovery Green has been rather successful and (I think) hasn't been completely leveraged yet.  

Agreed. I’m a fan of incrementalism and think if we can keep improving the public spaces and streetscapes while adding residential, retail will follow. To me, a bunch of connected small places and spaces in a walkable area is better than big projects like aquariums. That said, I’d love to see one or two public squares added downtown in key places. Similar to how Mexico City and many European cities have several plazas separated by only a few blocks. 

[TheSirDingle]

You know it's almost to the end of May, I wonder if we can find some schematics for this development floating online? Wonder if Skanska has any development reports coming up sometime soon? 

Edited May 25, 2020 by TheSirDingle

[j_cuevas713]

On 3/4/2020 at 11:33 PM, Urban Monster said:

Agreed. I’m a fan of incrementalism and think if we can keep improving the public spaces and streetscapes while adding residential, retail will follow. To me, a bunch of connected small places and spaces in a walkable area is better than big projects like aquariums. That said, I’d love to see one or two public squares added downtown in key places. Similar to how Mexico City and many European cities have several plazas separated by only a few blocks. 

Or even NY

[cloud713]

On 3/4/2020 at 2:32 PM, Twinsanity02 said:

Something like the Aquarium of the Americas in New Orleans?  Or better.  That would be magnificent.

The aquarium of the americas is great. Something else I had considered back when I used to get a little ridiculous with ideas (I still think the topgolf on the roof of GRB idea would have been great, haha.. they could have even built the structure for the bays on the Houston first parking garage to support the weight) was a satellite campus for moody gardens in downtown.

[DrLan34]

On 3/4/2020 at 9:31 PM, ArchFan said:

I think the Downtown Living Initiative was (and is) a really good idea.  A question in my mind regards whether it has built up the resident population downtown enough to support a lot of the things many of us would like to see created.   In view of that, I think it would be risky to build tourist attractions too early in the overall process of reconstructing a vibrant downtown for Houston. People who visit one tourist attraction will want to have others easily accessible nearby, plus interesting places to eat that are open after the downtown workers get off work.  We've improved in that regard, but downtown Houston (to me) doesn't offer as much to do as it did when I was a kid here in the 50s and 60s.

 

I think the "Mercado del Sol" project east of downtown is an example of investing public + private money too early in a particular sector of the process.  Perhaps the re-use of the Albert Thomas Convention Center is another example, but it does have a few surviving businesses.  Discovery Green has been rather successful and (I think) hasn't been completely leveraged yet.  

 

I think Post HTX is really going to help with that tourist attraction vibe.

[H-Town Man]

On 3/4/2020 at 9:31 PM, ArchFan said:

I think the Downtown Living Initiative was (and is) a really good idea.  A question in my mind regards whether it has built up the resident population downtown enough to support a lot of the things many of us would like to see created.   In view of that, I think it would be risky to build tourist attractions too early in the overall process of reconstructing a vibrant downtown for Houston. People who visit one tourist attraction will want to have others easily accessible nearby, plus interesting places to eat that are open after the downtown workers get off work.  We've improved in that regard, but downtown Houston (to me) doesn't offer as much to do as it did when I was a kid here in the 50s and 60s.

 

I think the "Mercado del Sol" project east of downtown is an example of investing public + private money too early in a particular sector of the process.  Perhaps the re-use of the Albert Thomas Convention Center is another example, but it does have a few surviving businesses.  Discovery Green has been rather successful and (I think) hasn't been completely leveraged yet.  

 

I generally agree, although I think Bayou Place (Albert Thomas) needed to happen to build some excitement for downtown in the early 00's and attract the initial phase of residents. We also have to keep in mind, a downtown does not need a ton of residents to be successful. Chicago in the 1980's did not have many residents downtown but plenty of tourism. Watch the images of it in Ferris Bueller's Day Off. It had lots of tourist attractions, a huge mass transit system, and historical inertia working for it.

[Sanjorade]

7 hours ago, cloud713 said:

The aquarium of the americas is great. Something else I had considered back when I used to get a little ridiculous with ideas (I still think the topgolf on the roof of GRB idea would have been great, haha.. they could have even built the structure for the bays on the Houston first parking garage to support the weight) was a satellite campus for moody gardens in downtown.

 

I was thinking the same thing re: a TopGolf concept, but on the SE part of downtown. It would have spanned 3 empty blocks. This was year ago, btw. 

[Houston19514]

25 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

 

I generally agree, although I think Bayou Place (Albert Thomas) needed to happen to build some excitement for downtown in the early 00's and attract the initial phase of residents. We also have to keep in mind, a downtown does not need a ton of residents to be successful. Chicago in the 1980's did not have many residents downtown but plenty of tourism. Watch the images of it in Ferris Bueller's Day Off. It had lots of tourist attractions, a huge mass transit system, and historical inertia working for it.

 
i think you exaggerate the lack of residents in downtown Chicago in the 1980s.  Watch the Bob Newhart Show.  😉

[Montrose1100]

22 hours ago, DrLan34 said:

 

I think Post HTX is really going to help with that tourist attraction vibe.

Yeah for sure. People laugh but Houston needs to be more photogenic/instagrammable. Something well put together, unique features, and a skyline view will attract the type of tourists & hype we need. Plus a local yokel like myself will visit. 

[H-Town Man]

On 5/25/2020 at 10:55 AM, Houston19514 said:

 
i think you exaggerate the lack of residents in downtown Chicago in the 1980s.  Watch the Bob Newhart Show.  😉

 

Apparently the greater downtown Chicago area had 18,000 residents in 1982 and about 110,000 today. The dimensions of the area they're using for downtown Chicago are roughly equivalent to downtown Houston plus Midtown and Eado. We are probably somewhere around 18,000 in those 3 areas combined.

 

https://www.brookings.edu/research/big-city-downtowns-are-booming-but-can-their-momentum-outlast-the-coronavirus/

Edited May 27, 2020 by H-Town Man

[j_cuevas713]

3 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

 

Apparently the greater downtown Chicago area had 18,000 residents in 1982 and about 110,000 today. The dimensions of the area they're using for downtown Chicago are roughly equivalent to downtown Houston plus Midtown and Eado. We are probably somewhere around 18,000 in those 3 areas combined.

 

https://www.brookings.edu/research/big-city-downtowns-are-booming-but-can-their-momentum-outlast-the-coronavirus/

I saw another article asking the same thing. I honestly think if it did affect things, it was on a microscopic scale. People still want to be in the city. And damn Chicago has that many in their core!? My goodness

Edited May 27, 2020 by j_cuevas713

[H-Town Man]

We might have more like 25,000 in those three neighborhoods. At any rate, if we're not yet a downtown that Ferris would spend a day in, it's not for lack of residents.

 

[Avossos]

8 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

We might have more like 25,000 in those three neighborhoods. At any rate, if we're not yet a downtown that Ferris would spend a day in, it's not for lack of residents.

 

 

I have done a Ferris Day in Houston... It honestly so much fun. French Restaurant - La Colombe D'or... baseball was awesome. The only real problem is finding a parade on a weekday that coincides with a day baseball game!!

[H-Town Man]

58 minutes ago, Avossos said:

 

I have done a Ferris Day in Houston... It honestly so much fun. French Restaurant - La Colombe D'or... baseball was awesome. The only real problem is finding a parade on a weekday that coincides with a day baseball game!!

 

I believe it could be done, but not one that people would watch a movie of. "Anything looks peaceful from 1,005 feet" just doesn't sound the same as "Anything looks peaceful from 1,453 feet."

 

[Houston19514]

10 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

We might have more like 25,000 in those three neighborhoods. At any rate, if we're not yet a downtown that Ferris would spend a day in, it's not for lack of residents.

 

 

FWIW, the area designated as downtown by the linked Brookings study (roughly speaking, the CBD, Midtown, and Eado) had almost 41,000 people in the 2010 census.  I would venture to guess we are over 50,000 by now.

35 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

 

I believe it could be done, but not one that people would watch a movie of. "Anything looks peaceful from 1,005 feet" just doesn't sound the same as "Anything looks peaceful from 1,453 feet."

 

 

Well, they didn't exactly spend a whole day in downtown Chicago either.  For example, you can't watch a baseball game in downtown Chicago.