Minute Maid Park Mixed-Use

[nate4l1f3]

Just for fun here’s my uneducated guess on how this is developed. 
 

Red= Multi-story Apartments & Hotel (mix-use)

Yellow= 2-3 story stand alone building with some restaurant/bars/entertainment 

Green= 2-3 story buildings w/ More Restaurants/Bar/entertainment & New team store. 
 

Red & Green buildings open and integrate into the open space courtyard for dinning and game watching on the big screen. Might be too much courtyard space here but I won’t get too picky. 
 

We have more space to develop here than the Colorado Rockies had but less space than the St. Louis Cardinals have. I’m really looking forward to seeing what he comes up with. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by nate4l1f3

[tigereye]

10 hours ago, phillip_white said:

The statements by Crane specifically mentions developing three sides of the stadium:
Area around Union Station
Homeplate Bar & Grill
Parking Lots near the freeway after 45 is below ground level

It makes sense to start with the southern lots near Homeplate and end with the parking lots.

In this article, Crane specifically says the following: 

Quote

If they get the freeway done and it goes underground that’s going to be a park,

However, we’ve seen city documents posted on the 45 reroute thread illustrating development occurring over the freeway deck. I’m not sure what’s planned here but Crane’s quote above suggests  the Astros might not be involved with freeway deck development…. yet. All depends on if the reroute downtown even occurs at this point. I agree with @nate4l1f3 for the halfway house site, I could envision more high rise residential development (hopefully with ground floor retail/restaurant) occurring here next to 500 Crawford. I’m guessing they’re looking at adding as much residential surrounding the ballpark as they can, which creates not only more population in the area after office hours but also more potential consumers to sell tickets too that are more likely to attend games being located steps away from the ballpark. Considering the situation, I’d say the phases of ballpark development could go like this:

Phase 1: Home Plate site.

Phase 2: CF site.

Phase 3: Freeway Deck (if reroute occurs) 

Edited November 9, 2021 by tigereye

[tigereye]

4 hours ago, nate4l1f3 said:

Just for fun here’s my uneducated guess on how this is developed. 

Yellow= 2-3 story stand alone building with some restaurant/bars/entertainment 

The yellow lot is owned by Annunciation Church. IIRC they’ve planned to build a garage here for a while but nothings happened. Not sure if that’s still their plan. 
 

The lot that piques my curiously for more development is Block 120 behind Marriott Marquis. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by tigereye

[phillip_white]

6 hours ago, nate4l1f3 said:

I hope you’re right, but where does he actually mention that HE will redevelop any area besides the old home plate and bar grill/church parking lot? 

I'm just going off of what was attributed to him in the article:

Quote

Crane on Friday referenced the over $100 million the team has spent renovating areas like the Gallagher Club and Ultra Club inside the stadium, and said the next goal is to create an entertainment district in the area around Union Station and the now-closed Home Plate Bar & Grill.

With reference to the development by the freeway, he doesn't spell it out but why would you pump up the area as a major attraction so you can leave blocks of parking lots? If anything, that would be the spot for a mixed-use parking garage... assuming the highway realignment happens, which I am not necessarily a fan of (but a development like what I'm imagining plus the other projects this will encourage could make 10+ years of construction worth dealing with).

Quote

If they get the freeway done and it goes underground that’s going to be a park, so this area’s going to be a primetime area down the road for everybody to come down and enjoy the ballpark.

 

[tigereye]

Just as a reminder, the Downtown TRIZ’s plans for on cap development, post 59 reroute.

See pages 61-69 for EaDo Ramble. 

http://www.downtowntirz.com/downtownhouston/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/08-11-20-Board-Book-FINAL.pdf

[sapo2367]

1 hour ago, tigereye said:

Just as a reminder, the Downtown TRIZ’s plans for on cap development, post 59 reroute.

See pages 61-69 for EaDo Ramble. 

http://www.downtowntirz.com/downtownhouston/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/08-11-20-Board-Book-FINAL.pdf

Love these plans -- what a difference this will be for downtown!

[H-Town Man]

7 hours ago, nate4l1f3 said:

Just for fun here’s my uneducated guess on how this is developed. 
 

Red= Multi-story Apartments & Hotel (mix-use)

Yellow= 2-3 story stand alone building with some restaurant/bars/entertainment 

Green= 2-3 story buildings w/ More Restaurants/Bar/entertainment & New team store. 
 

Red & Green buildings open and integrate into the open space courtyard for dinning and game watching on the big screen. Might be too much courtyard space here but I won’t get too picky. 
 

We have more space to develop here than the Colorado Rockies had but less space than the St. Louis Cardinals have. I’m really looking forward to seeing what he comes up with. 

My worry is that the yellow and green boxes become 2-3 story retail and the red area becomes a parking garage, and the "mixed use" refers to retail and parking. I think if he were planning a high rise, he would not have compared it to the developments in St. Louis and Atlanta. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[nate4l1f3]

4 hours ago, tigereye said:

The yellow lot is owned by Annunciation Church. IIRC they’ve planned to build a garage here for a while but nothings happened. Not sure if that’s still their plan. 
 

The lot that piques my curiously for more development is Block 120 behind Marriott Marquis. 

It’s not in the article (typical Chron 🙄) but Crane mention specifically that he has hope that the Chruch would let him build an underground parking lot on that site. He joked that since the nuns have been at the games that he has a little more leverage now lol. I don’t think he mentions this without being confident in being able to do so. This was said at the end of the year press conference so the comments are very recent. 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by nate4l1f3

[nate4l1f3]

33 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

My worry is that the yellow and green boxes become 2-3 story retail and the red area becomes a parking garage, and the "mixed use" refers to retail and parking. I think if he were planning a high rise, he would not have compared it to the developments in St. Louis and Atlanta. Hope I'm wrong.

 

I actually think it’s a great thing that he compared it to those two. He’s also mentioned in years past about touring these entertainment specific venues for baseball. You can’t mention all that and proceed to lay an egg. 

3 hours ago, phillip_white said:

I'm just going off of what was attributed to him in the article:

With reference to the development by the freeway, he doesn't spell it out but why would you pump up the area as a major attraction so you can leave blocks of parking lots? If anything, that would be the spot for a mixed-use parking garage... assuming the highway realignment happens, which I am not necessarily a fan of (but a development like what I'm imagining plus the other projects this will encourage could make 10+ years of construction worth dealing with).

 

That freeway and cap seem so far off that it’s hard to even imagine. Don’t they need more funding for the cap separate from the freeway expansion? Either way, you can get a better idea by listening to his comments. I actually think he’s just pumping up how the area will become even more desirable. 

 

[Houston19514]

15 hours ago, tigereye said:

Definitely mixed use. 
 

The question I have based on this  article pertains to the following statement. 

 

 

Surrounding MMP? That could actually happen. We know the Astros also own the plot of land at 1701 Prairie (by CF gate) that was formerly a halfway house (now demolished). Could they have additional plans for that plot as well? There’s a sizable chunk of green space across Crawford St behind the roof that combined with the Prairie lot, gives them a lot of space to work with. And since it’s next to Heritage Park, that would make a great location for an Astros Hall Of Fame building. 

1701 Prairie appears to be in the middle of the ballpark. Not sure what land you are saying the Astros own in the area west of the ballpark.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Houston19514

[txtiger]

I still think the last street section of Avenida should be demoed, and the whole, extended block be developed into something like St. Louis' Union Station:  https://www.stlouisunionstation.com/explore

A monumental observation wheel like that in Munich could be centered on the Avenida, but w/ the long part of the wheel footprint oriented due-north.  Surround the wheel w/ family-friendly diversions, including something like a Legoland Discovery Center.  This would give Houston the 3rd-largest observation wheel in the States, after those in Las Vegas and Orlando, and a collection of family-friendly attractions beyond Downtown Aquarium.

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by txtiger

[nate4l1f3]

8 hours ago, nate4l1f3 said:

Just for fun here’s my uneducated guess on how this is developed. 
 

Red= Multi-story Apartments & Hotel (mix-use)

Yellow= 2-3 story stand alone building with some restaurant/bars/entertainment 

Green= 2-3 story buildings w/ More Restaurants/Bar/entertainment & New team store. 
 

Red & Green buildings open and integrate into the open space courtyard for dinning and game watching on the big screen. Might be too much courtyard space here but I won’t get too picky. 
 

We have more space to develop here than the Colorado Rockies had but less space than the St. Louis Cardinals have. I’m really looking forward to seeing what he comes up with. 

For reference here is the whole Ballpark village in St Louis (google earth pic). I envision the yellow lot to house a building similar to the Twitter pic but with most activity facing Avenida Americas given the rectangle shape of the lot. Of course they could just put something like this in the bigger lot and use the church lot as more of a courtyard.   

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by nate4l1f3

[nate4l1f3]

10 minutes ago, txtiger said:

I still think the last street section of Avenida should be demoed, and the whole, extended block be developed into something like St. Louis' Union Station:  https://www.stlouisunionstation.com/explore

A monumental observation wheel like that in Munich could be centered on the Avenida, but w/ the long part of the wheel footprint oriented due-north.  Surround the wheel w/ family-friendly diversions, including something like a Legoland Discovery Center.  This would give Houston the 3rd-largest observation wheel in the States, after those in Las Vegas and Orlando, and a collection of family-friendly attractions beyond Downtown Aquarium.

 

I thought about the idea of abandoning Avenida as well but redoing it and keeping it open as more of a passage way to the park for fans coming from Discovery Green area. That’s wheel is a fantastic idea and in a way would be the offspring of the failed Texas museum that was planned there not long ago. 

[H-Town Man]

1 hour ago, nate4l1f3 said:

I actually think it’s a great thing that he compared it to those two. He’s also mentioned in years past about touring these entertainment specific venues for baseball. You can’t mention all that and proceed to lay an egg. 

I'm sure both of those places are very nice, and whatever he builds will be very nice. The point was, it doesn't sound like he's planning to build a highrise.

 

[Houston19514]

2 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

My worry is that the yellow and green boxes become 2-3 story retail and the red area becomes a parking garage, and the "mixed use" refers to retail and parking. I think if he were planning a high rise, he would not have compared it to the developments in St. Louis and Atlanta. Hope I'm wrong.

 

 

58 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

I'm sure both of those places are very nice, and whatever he builds will be very nice. The point was, it doesn't sound like he's planning to build a highrise.

 

Am I understanding you correctly?  Crane's comparison to the STL Ballpark Village and the Battery in ATL causes you to assume he doesn't plan a highrise?  

Ballpark Village in St Louis includes a 29-story apartment building...

The Battery includes a 16-story Omni Hotel...

Crane specifically mentioned planing apartments, hotel, or both.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Houston19514

[tigereye]

1 hour ago, Houston19514 said:

1701 Prairie appears to be in the middle of the ballpark. Not sure what land you are saying the Astros own in the area west of the ballpark.

Wrong address. 1511 Preston, the old white halfway house that was demolished last year. 

[tigereye]

1 hour ago, txtiger said:

I still think the last street section of Avenida should be demoed, and the whole, extended block be developed into something like St. Louis' Union Station:  https://www.stlouisunionstation.com/explore

A monumental observation wheel like that in Munich could be centered on the Avenida, but w/ the long part of the wheel footprint oriented due-north.  Surround the wheel w/ family-friendly diversions, including something like a Legoland Discovery Center.  This would give Houston the 3rd-largest observation wheel in the States, after those in Las Vegas and Orlando, and a collection of family-friendly attractions beyond Downtown Aquarium.

 

I would agree. Convert Avenida De Las Americas into a pedestrian thoroughfare from Lamar St up to the ballpark, linking all of these destinations (Toyota Center, GBRCC, Discovery Green, Ballpark Village and the MMP) together like a string of pearls. Although McKinney street turn lane will still need to exist for access to the Discovery Green parking garage. This encourages fans leaving both sports venues towards the park which helps further support all of the restaurants built into GRBCC’s facade and around Discovery Green. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by tigereye

[nate4l1f3]

29 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

I'm sure both of those places are very nice, and whatever he builds will be very nice. The point was, it doesn't sound like he's planning to build a highrise.

 

I get what you’re saying. My initial rebuttal was more to you’re comment about him just building a parking garage with retail when he’s already stated he’ll build an apartment and/or hotel on that site. I’m not expected a 40 story tower but I wouldn’t be surprised to see him go relatively high here. 

[Houston19514]

21 minutes ago, tigereye said:

Wrong address. 1511 Preston, the old white halfway house that was demolished last year. 

HCAD still says that property is owned by the Permanent School Fund and FWIW, the rest of that block is owned by a variety of parties, none of which appear to be Crane or the Astros.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Houston19514

[Houston19514]

17 hours ago, tigereye said:

 

Surrounding MMP? That could actually happen. We know the Astros also own the plot of land at 1701 Prairie (by CF gate) that was formerly a halfway house (now demolished). Could they have additional plans for that plot as well? There’s a sizable chunk of green space across Crawford St behind the roof that combined with the Prairie lot, gives them a lot of space to work with. And since it’s next to Heritage Park, that would make a great location for an Astros Hall Of Fame building. 

I wouldn't put that much weight on that choice of words, especially if it was the Chron's choice of words. 😉

Consider that the same article tells us that TxDoT plans to reroute US 59 and I45 underground "on the stadium's southwest side".  SMH

Edited November 9, 2021 by Houston19514

[H-Town Man]

56 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

Am I understanding you correctly?  Crane's comparison to the STL Ballpark Village and the Battery in ATL causes you to assume he doesn't plan a highrise?  

Ballpark Village in St Louis includes a 29-story apartment building...

The Battery includes a 16-story Omni Hotel...

Crane specifically mentioned planing apartments, hotel, or both.

Ok. Good point. Where did he mention the apartments or hotel? Recently or a long time ago?

 

[tigereye]

35 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

HCAD still says that property is owned by the Permanent School Fund and FWIW, the rest of that block is owned by a variety of parties, none of which appear to be Crane or the Astros.

For reference, where I got the information of the Astros possibly owning 1511 Preston lot. 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by tigereye

[Houston19514]

3 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

Ok. Good point. Where did he mention the apartments or hotel? Recently or a long time ago?

 

Last week In the conversation with the media that is the topic of this conversation (sadly and not surprisingly the Chron did not include that part in their story, but it's in video posted in Nate's post above).

[KinkaidAlum]

Was just in St. Louis this summer for the first time ever. I'd love to have something like that. It's a similar footprint as Minute Maid with the only difference being the ballpark in St. Louis is just on the other side of a freeway from the rest of downtown similar to Dynamo Stadium.

 

St. Louis was a fascinating place. So much potential. So many grand brick buildings. So much decay. You can really tell it used to be an "it" city 100 years ago. 

[H-Town Man]

8 minutes ago, KinkaidAlum said:

Was just in St. Louis this summer for the first time ever. I'd love to have something like that. It's a similar footprint as Minute Maid with the only difference being the ballpark in St. Louis is just on the other side of a freeway from the rest of downtown similar to Dynamo Stadium.

 

St. Louis was a fascinating place. So much potential. So many grand brick buildings. So much decay. You can really tell it used to be an "it" city 100 years ago. 

And if only someone had not invented the airplane, St. Louis would still be an "it" city.

 

[Twinsanity02]

54 minutes ago, KinkaidAlum said:

Was just in St. Louis this summer for the first time ever. I'd love to have something like that. It's a similar footprint as Minute Maid with the only difference being the ballpark in St. Louis is just on the other side of a freeway from the rest of downtown similar to Dynamo Stadium.

 

St. Louis was a fascinating place. So much potential. So many grand brick buildings. So much decay. You can really tell it used to be an "it" city 100 years ago. 

From 1900 to around 1915 they were the 4th largest city. Had a remarkable World's Fair. Their population peaked in 1950 and has since fallen over 50%. 

[H-Town Man]

27 minutes ago, Twinsanity02 said:

From 1900 to around 1915 they were the 4th largest city. Had a remarkable World's Fair. Their population peaked in 1950 and has since fallen over 50%. 

The no. 4 spot is kind of a death trap, unfortunately. St. Louis, Detroit, and Philadelphia all spent significant time there in the 20th century and now look like somebody nuked them. I think we'll break the trend, though.

 

[Texasota]

Philadelphia is in much better shape than St. Louis and Detroit, and has been gaining back population for the last decade or so. I don't think it's fair to say that it looks like somebody "nuked" it. It's no Baltimore.

[nate4l1f3]

More upgrades? This is the old ticket window area that’s no longer used. Kind of a dead spot on this side of the stadium. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by nate4l1f3

[wilcal]

1 hour ago, nate4l1f3 said:

More upgrades? This is the old ticket window area that’s no longer used. Kind of a dead spot in this side of the stadium. 

 

 

There's a permit for a team store expansion. I'm guessing that's it. 

[Houston19514]

3 hours ago, KinkaidAlum said:

Was just in St. Louis this summer for the first time ever. I'd love to have something like that. It's a similar footprint as Minute Maid with the only difference being the ballpark in St. Louis is just on the other side of a freeway from the rest of downtown similar to Dynamo Stadium.

 

Are you sure you were in St Louis?   😉   Busch Stadium is NOT on the other side of a freeway from downtown St Louis...

[nate4l1f3]

1 hour ago, wilcal said:

There's a permit for a team store expansion. I'm guessing that's it. 

Ahhh ok. Was hoping they were doing something with the exterior there.  

[KinkaidAlum]

My Bad.

It's two blocks west of the elevated 44

Due North of 64

And just to the West are two overhead flyover ramps into downtown. 

I was in the back of an uber and I am old. That said, Minute Maid feels more connected to downtown Houston than Busch does to downtown St. Louis.

 

[dbigtex56]

5 hours ago, KinkaidAlum said:

Was just in St. Louis this summer for the first time ever. I'd love to have something like that. It's a similar footprint as Minute Maid with the only difference being the ballpark in St. Louis is just on the other side of a freeway from the rest of downtown similar to Dynamo Stadium.

 

St. Louis was a fascinating place. So much potential. So many grand brick buildings. So much decay. You can really tell it used to be an "it" city 100 years ago. 

I had a friend who lived in Soulard, and we'd tour Forest Park, Tower Grove, the Central West End and marvel at the grandeur of the houses and enclaves. The decayed areas were heartbreakingly beautiful. 

[wilcal]

1 hour ago, nate4l1f3 said:

Ahhh ok. Was hoping they were doing something with the exterior there.  

It probably is being revised to be more open to the street. Certainly looks it from the pics. 

[houstontexasjack]

5 hours ago, Texasota said:

Philadelphia is in much better shape than St. Louis and Detroit, and has been gaining back population for the last decade or so. I don't think it's fair to say that it looks like somebody "nuked" it. It's no Baltimore.

Houston’s the Detroit of the future. I’ve seen RoboCop 2.  

[kennyc05]

11 hours ago, houstontexasjack said:

Houston’s the Detroit of the future. I’ve seen RoboCop 2.  

🤦🏽‍♂️

[mattyt36]

18 hours ago, Twinsanity02 said:

From 1900 to around 1915 they were the 4th largest city. Had a remarkable World's Fair. Their population peaked in 1950 and has since fallen over 50%. 

Don't forget the 1904 Olympics

[hindesky]

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by hindesky

[H-Town Man]

20 hours ago, Texasota said:

Philadelphia is in much better shape than St. Louis and Detroit, and has been gaining back population for the last decade or so. I don't think it's fair to say that it looks like somebody "nuked" it. It's no Baltimore.

Ok, fair enough, it has been reviving. I had in the back of my mind The Onion's atlas, Our Dumb Planet, where for Philadelphia it says, "Actual site of a nuclear explo- wait, nope, that's just Philadelphia." But that was printed over a decade ago.

[urbanize713]

McGregor Square in Denver could be  good inspiration. Block sizes comparable? 

https://www.mcgregorsquare.com/?utm_source=google my business&utm_medium=listing&utm_campaign=visit website

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by urbanize713

[nate4l1f3]

15 hours ago, urbanize713 said:

McGregor Square in Denver could be  good inspiration. Block sizes comparable? 

https://www.mcgregorsquare.com/?utm_source=google my business&utm_medium=listing&utm_campaign=visit website

 

We actually have more space to work with if the church allows the Astros to build their garage underground. Also, we’re lucky in the sense that we have the ability for our complex to front the stadium. Colorado’s is separate by the freeway which is why I think they went with the design they did. There’s no reason for the Astros not to have better interaction at street level. 

[arche_757]

Would proximity to the private school hinder potential bar/entertainment venues on the parcel just south of MMP?

[wilcal]

3 hours ago, arche_757 said:

Would proximity to the private school hinder potential bar/entertainment venues on the parcel just south of MMP?

That's actually an interesting question. I think it is property line to property line, too?

 

Marriott Marquis is about 400' from Incarnate Word property line to property line. Houston First building with Kulture is 300'. MMP is about 225'. Old home plate building 422' 

[houstontexasjack]

5 hours ago, arche_757 said:

Would proximity to the private school hinder potential bar/entertainment venues on the parcel just south of MMP?

There’s no state law requirement of a minimum distance between a bar and a school. I’m not sure about a city of Houston ordinance, but I’d think the Astros could apply for a variance if need be. I wouldn’t think School/ bar hours would overlap much. 
 

Now, if the Astros wanted to operate a strip club or other s.o.b. as part of the entertainment, that’d be another story.

[Nate99]

The Westin, Crane’s restaurants in 500 Crawford, and the ballpark itself all sell booze, I don’t think it would be an issue. 

[wilcal]

20 hours ago, houstontexasjack said:

There’s no state law requirement of a minimum distance between a bar and a school. I’m not sure about a city of Houston ordinance, but I’d think the Astros could apply for a variance if need be. I wouldn’t think School/ bar hours would overlap much. 
 

Now, if the Astros wanted to operate a strip club or other s.o.b. as part of the entertainment, that’d be another story.

Just read Chapter 3 Article I of the city ordinance, and you are right, Texas law allows the city to make alcohol free zones.

The default is 300 feet from any public or private school, hospital, or church, and it can be extended up to 1,000 feet.

The city does have the ability to grant variances, but it looks like it has to be voted on by city council. 

Additionally, the ordinance specifically carves out hotels in the central business district. Also, any restaurant in the CBD is carved out assuming there is no exterior signage that says that they sell alcohol and there is not outdoor seating.

Also, there's a special carve-out for sports stadiums. 

This city sometimes lol.  

Edited November 14, 2021 by wilcal

[arche_757]

But it is a church, and a school.  Wonder what difference that would make?

Edited November 14, 2021 by arche_757

[wilcal]

2 hours ago, arche_757 said:

But it is a church, and a school.  Wonder what difference that would make?

I think it is none in this situation. I don't know if the 300' and 1000' zones are published anywhere in map form. 

[Houston19514]

18 hours ago, arche_757 said:

But it is a church, and a school.  Wonder what difference that would make?

Why would that make a difference?  The same standard applies to both.  

But FWIW, I believe the church and the school are technically two separate entities in this case. If the ordinance applies here, it would presumably have to be measured from both the church property and the school. property.