Minute Maid Park Mixed-Use

[Highrise Tower]

[hindesky]

Looks packed down.

[hindesky]

I talked with a couple guys who seem to know about trains.  They were in the process of evaluating the condition of the train engine at it's current location. Took lots of pics but don't want to put them here. I'm going to create a topic in the East End section.

Edited April 18, 2021 by hindesky

[hindesky]

Spotted surveyors stakes and rebar.

[pm91]

On 2/23/2021 at 11:45 PM, tigereye said:

Train (SP 982) is moving to 3405 Navigation on 2/28 

https://www.facebook.com/1717138895199170/posts/2845499742363074/?d=n

Saw it there yesterday

[j_cuevas713]

No renders have been leaked? I'm so excited about this

[JBTX]

1 hour ago, j_cuevas713 said:

No renders have been leaked?

Nah, I think the Astros changed their passwords after the Cardinals stole their scouting data.

[hindesky]

Definitely going to be a surface parking lot at first.

 

[Nate99]

Can confirm. They're putting in a few drains and the rebar for curbing is being placed now.  

Maybe the city can part with the block behind the Marquis after this is up and running. 

[thatguysly]

Nothing says Houston like relocating historical structures for a surface lot.

[Response]

Don't worry. In Houston, everything is temporary. Even the permanent stuff. 

[nate4l1f3]

23 hours ago, Nate99 said:

Can confirm. They're putting in a few drains and the rebar for curbing is being placed now.  

Maybe the city can part with the block behind the Marquis after this is up and running. 

That is the block I’m most excited about for downtown. I have high hopes for that one!

[kbates2]

2 hours ago, nate4l1f3 said:

That is the block I’m most excited about for downtown. I have high hopes for that one!

That's a pretty important one.  The Main and Prairie block across from Moonshiner's is probably mine.  Bank of Southwest tower is still a pretty major one.

[nate4l1f3]

21 hours ago, kbates2 said:

That's a pretty important one.  The Main and Prairie block across from Moonshiner's is probably mine.  Bank of Southwest tower is still a pretty major one.

Yes! Every time me and my buddy pass that block on Main and Prairie we always dream. 

[j_cuevas713]

22 hours ago, kbates2 said:

That's a pretty important one.  The Main and Prairie block across from Moonshiner's is probably mine.  Bank of Southwest tower is still a pretty major one.

I'm surprised that lot hasn't been developed yet. Whatever get's built will really tie in that entertainment section of downtown. 

[H-Town Man]

On 4/28/2021 at 1:29 PM, Nate99 said:

Can confirm. They're putting in a few drains and the rebar for curbing is being placed now.  

Maybe the city can part with the block behind the Marquis after this is up and running. 

If you mean Block 100, that is owned by Louis Macey. He'll sell it when he's good and ready.

 

[Houston19514]

3 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

If you mean Block 100, that is owned by Louis Macey. He'll sell it when he's good and ready.

 

Hmmm... Interesting.  i had thought the City owned that whole super-block. Didn't they issue an RFP for development on that site a few years back?

[H-Town Man]

On 4/30/2021 at 5:40 PM, Houston19514 said:

Hmmm... Interesting.  i had thought the City owned that whole super-block. Didn't they issue an RFP for development on that site a few years back?

HCAD shows it owned by Louis Macey (who goes under the name "Current Owner") since I think around 2011. It may have been the city's before that, didn't dig into the sales history of all the parcels. They still may have been in a position to issue an RFP if they had a ground lease agreement, although it would be unusual for the city to be the lessee on a ground lease. 

 

[Nate99]

On 4/30/2021 at 2:15 PM, H-Town Man said:

If you mean Block 100, that is owned by Louis Macey. He'll sell it when he's good and ready.

 

Dang, I thought it came up as being city owned a while back as well. 

[H-Town Man]

2 hours ago, Nate99 said:

Dang, I thought it came up as being city owned a while back as well. 

The best way to ensure that this gets developed to its highest and best use is for it to remain in private hands. He will sell it when he believes its value is maximized, and when that happens, a developer will be forced to build something very big in order to get an adequate return to the land. When public entities get involved is when you end up with stuff like the Embassy Suites, although it did require public investment to get the ball rolling in this neighborhood (but we are past that stage).

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by H-Town Man

[texan]

I went to Texas Live! in Arlington this weekend while visiting a friend and I really hope something similar but Houston, Astros, and space themed ends up on this site. It's a really cool and surprisingly unique experience for it being in the metroplex. Normally I would be against Houston doing a carbon copy of something in Dallas but this is the exception.

[j_cuevas713]

3 hours ago, texan said:

I went to Texas Live! in Arlington this weekend while visiting a friend and I really hope something similar but Houston, Astros, and space themed ends up on this site. It's a really cool and surprisingly unique experience for it being in the metroplex. Normally I would be against Houston doing a carbon copy of something in Dallas but this is the exception.

The thing about our version is it won't be in some suburb but downtown, where it should be. 

[Houston19514]

3 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

The best way to ensure that this gets developed to its highest and best use is for it to remain in private hands. He will sell it when he believes its value is maximized, and when that happens, a developer will be forced to build something very big in order to get an adequate return to the land. When public entities get involved is when you end up with stuff like the Embassy Suites, although it did require public investment to get the ball rolling in this neighborhood (but we are past that stage).

 

I hear what you're saying, but to be fair, public entities had little to do with the Embassy Suites.  On the other hand, public entities were much more heavily involved with both the Hilton Americas and the Marriott Marquis.

[H-Town Man]

14 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

I hear what you're saying, but to be fair, public entities had little to do with the Embassy Suites.  On the other hand, public entities were much more heavily involved with both the Hilton Americas and the Marriott Marquis.

Like I said, it took public entities to get the ball rolling, as was the case with the convention center, its hotels, and the park. But public entities had a lot to do with the Embassy Suites, because the tax incentives given out made it feasible to construct a building for which the land value was otherwise too high. If no tax incentives were given out, it would have required a bigger, nicer building to make the project feasible given the land cost.

That's the tradeoff when you push development forward with tax incentives, rebates, etc. It makes buildings with a lower return feasible, so you get lesser buildings.

 

[tangledwoods]

For everyone worried, there is about a 99% chance this will end up as a Texas Live! or equal.  It's helpful to remember that companies like Live Nation and Cordish (folks behind the Live! brand) have been absolutely hosed by the pandemic.  Project financing is just not all that simple right now and mixed use projects like this one take time to get organized. 

For now just enjoyed the asphalt paved paradise.

 

[H-Town Man]

If we get something like Texas Live!, it would be at the bottom of a very tall building. There is no way something like that would be feasible on $400-500/SF land.

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by H-Town Man

[Nate99]

20 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

The best way to ensure that this gets developed to its highest and best use is for it to remain in private hands. He will sell it when he believes its value is maximized, and when that happens, a developer will be forced to build something very big in order to get an adequate return to the land. When public entities get involved is when you end up with stuff like the Embassy Suites, although it did require public investment to get the ball rolling in this neighborhood (but we are past that stage).

 

Gotcha. 

My "dang" was more for believing and sharing bad information. Tend to agree that having it in the hands of a known developer is net good.  

I also had some notion of whatever amalgamation of the Astros, city, county etc that looks out for whatever parking regs/expectations are appropriate would be satiated with the new big lot right next to the stadium and be willing to let this one go, but that's a pretty diffuse motivation. 

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

On 5/4/2021 at 10:36 AM, H-Town Man said:

If we get something like Texas Live!, it would be at the bottom of a very tall building. There is no way something like that would be feasible on $400-500/SF land.

 

The Rustic seems to be doing ok. But then again, the only time I have been there was for a private event last week, and it was packed. Events are where these places make their money, not from shows and restaurants.

[H-Town Man]

13 hours ago, Tumbleweed_Tx said:

The Rustic seems to be doing ok. But then again, the only time I have been there was for a private event last week, and it was packed. Events are where these places make their money, not from shows and restaurants.

The Rustic is not even comparable to this in land value. Land over there is worth maybe $40-50/SF, a tenth of this. That is why the Rustic is located where it is, in the back of everything, because you couldn't put something like that anywhere else downtown. It is not a question of whether something will do well here. Anything would do well. It's a question of whether it will do well enough to return the cost of the land plus the cost of whatever you build on it. At this location, it will take a very tall building to do that.

 

[staresatmaps]

I vote The Rustic as the least inviting building in all of downtown.

[Sunstar]

3 hours ago, staresatmaps said:

I vote The Rustic as the least inviting building in all of downtown.

I give them credit for doing something with the least favorable lot in all of downtown

[j_cuevas713]

6 hours ago, staresatmaps said:

I vote The Rustic as the least inviting building in all of downtown.

That's pretty rough criticism for an area that's continuing to change.

Edited May 6, 2021 by j_cuevas713

[hindesky]

[hindesky]

I wonder if this parking lot is going to be paved with asphalt or a porous surface since it will be temporary?

[wilcal]

Permits issued for parking lot

[toxtethogrady]

On 4/24/2021 at 4:23 PM, hindesky said:

Definitely going to be a surface parking lot at first.

Who's at first?🤣

[hindesky]

Edited June 6, 2021 by hindesky

[Texasota]

Those curbs would be so much better used for bike lanes.

[hindesky]

Asphalt.

[j_cuevas713]

Jim Crane confirmed that construction will start in 12 months and be similar to the ballpark village in St Louis and The Battery in Atlanta. This is going to really spark this corner of downtown. Finally seeing the investment of building MMP downtown. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by j_cuevas713

[H-Town Man]

Not sure if this will be mixed-use or just retail.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/astros/amp/Astros-Jim-Crane-expansion-Minute-Maid-Park-16596664.php

Edited November 6, 2021 by H-Town Man

[H-Town Man]

On 5/4/2021 at 10:30 AM, tangledwoods said:

For everyone worried, there is about a 99% chance this will end up as a Texas Live! or equal.  It's helpful to remember that companies like Live Nation and Cordish (folks behind the Live! brand) have been absolutely hosed by the pandemic.  Project financing is just not all that simple right now and mixed use projects like this one take time to get organized. 

For now just enjoyed the asphalt paved paradise.

 

Rereading this, I think you must have been referring to the Crane-owned site. I had thought you wrote it in reference to Block 100 (next to Marriott).

[Fortune]

32 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

Not sure if this will be mixed-use or just retail.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/astros/amp/Astros-Jim-Crane-expansion-Minute-Maid-Park-16596664.php

The article says mixed use development, so I'm not sure why that is being questioned. 

[wilcal]

If the Astros do lose one of their lots for NHHIP, I wonder if they are planning on doing a parking garage in the new development or on the further lot.

You have to think between 81 home games, 20 Dynamo games, and 15ish Dash games it makes economic sense to build a parking garage. Throw in some retail and there is some potential born out of their parking necessity. 

[H-Town Man]

12 hours ago, Fortune said:

The article says mixed use development, so I'm not sure why that is being questioned. 

Good point. I guess I'm wondering, will it just be a low, mostly retail development, or will there be a high rise (likely residential) component above it?

[cspwal]

15 hours ago, wilcal said:

If the Astros do lose one of their lots for NHHIP, I wonder if they are planning on doing a parking garage in the new development or on the further lot.

You have to think between 81 home games, 20 Dynamo games, and 15ish Dash games it makes economic sense to build a parking garage. Throw in some retail and there is some potential born out of their parking necessity. 

It would be cool if the parking garage was connected to Minute Maid via the existing train 

[tigereye]

On 11/5/2021 at 8:25 PM, H-Town Man said:

Not sure if this will be mixed-use or just retail.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/astros/amp/Astros-Jim-Crane-expansion-Minute-Maid-Park-16596664.php

Definitely mixed use. 
 

The question I have based on this  article pertains to the following statement. 

Astros owner Jim Crane said Friday that construction on a ballpark entertainment district surrounding Minute Maid Park is set to begin “probably within 12 months.”

Surrounding MMP? That could actually happen. We know the Astros also own the plot of land at 1701 Prairie (by CF gate) that was formerly a halfway house (now demolished). Could they have additional plans for that plot as well? There’s a sizable chunk of green space across Crawford St behind the roof that combined with the Prairie lot, gives them a lot of space to work with. And since it’s next to Heritage Park, that would make a great location for an Astros Hall Of Fame building. 

[phillip_white]

37 minutes ago, tigereye said:

Definitely mixed use. 
 

The question I have based on this  article pertains to the following statement. 

Surrounding MMP? That could actually happen. We know the Astros also own the plot of land at 1701 Prairie (by CF gate) that was formerly a halfway house (now demolished). Could they have additional plans for that plot as well? There’s a sizable chunk of green space across Crawford St behind the roof that combined with the Prairie lot, gives them a lot of space to work with. And since it’s next to Heritage Park, that would make a great location for an Astros Hall Of Fame building. 

The statements by Crane specifically mentions developing three sides of the stadium:
Area around Union Station
Homeplate Bar & Grill
Parking Lots near the freeway after 45 is below ground level

It makes sense to start with the southern lots near Homeplate and end with the parking lots.

[nate4l1f3]

4 hours ago, phillip_white said:

The statements by Crane specifically mentions developing three sides of the stadium:
Area around Union Station
Homeplate Bar & Grill
Parking Lots near the freeway after 45 is below ground level

It makes sense to start with the southern lots near Homeplate and end with the parking lots.

I hope you’re right, but where does he actually mention that HE will redevelop any area besides the old home plate and bar grill/church parking lot? 

[nate4l1f3]

5 hours ago, tigereye said:

Definitely mixed use. 
 

The question I have based on this  article pertains to the following statement. 

 

 

Surrounding MMP? That could actually happen. We know the Astros also own the plot of land at 1701 Prairie (by CF gate) that was formerly a halfway house (now demolished). Could they have additional plans for that plot as well? There’s a sizable chunk of green space across Crawford St behind the roof that combined with the Prairie lot, gives them a lot of space to work with. And since it’s next to Heritage Park, that would make a great location for an Astros Hall Of Fame building. 

I’ve always liked this idea by you. Combining that lot at CF and the wasted green space would be pretty cool.  But now that we know for sure (have know for a while now) that the ballpark village will be where home plate bar used to be, idk that it would make sense to build something similar and pull game day traffic away from the ballpark village. The hall of fame building would work on the grass but building something on that empty lot would have to make more financial sense IMO- Unless he only owns the small parcel that the old halfway house sat on and not the whole block. I can definitely see an Alexan style apartment on that whole block with some GFR at the corner. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by nate4l1f3