Minute Maid Park Mixed-Use Development

[toxtethogrady]

On 11/13/2021 at 3:17 PM, arche_757 said:

Would proximity to the private school hinder potential bar/entertainment venues on the parcel just south of MMP?

HSPVA really hasn't, as far as I can tell...

[mollusk]

On 11/14/2021 at 3:35 PM, wilcal said:

Just read Chapter 3 Article I of the city ordinance, and you are right, Texas law allows the city to make alcohol free zones.

The default is 300 feet from any public or private school, hospital, or church, and it can be extended up to 1,000 feet.

The city does have the ability to grant variances, but it looks like it has to be voted on by city council. 

Additionally, the ordinance specifically carves out hotels in the central business district. Also, any restaurant in the CBD is carved out assuming there is no exterior signage that says that they sell alcohol and there is not outdoor seating.

Also, there's a special carve-out for sports stadiums. 

This city sometimes lol.  

IIRC, at least when the stadium was built the measurement was front door to front door, and Annunciation "moved" its main entrance to accommodate the stadium.  Again IIRC that's when Annunciation's fencing on that side went up.

On 11/14/2021 at 3:35 PM, wilcal said:

Just read Chapter 3 Article I of the city ordinance, and you are right, Texas law allows the city to make alcohol free zones.

The default is 300 feet from any public or private school, hospital, or church, and it can be extended up to 1,000 feet.

The city does have the ability to grant variances, but it looks like it has to be voted on by city council. 

Additionally, the ordinance specifically carves out hotels in the central business district. Also, any restaurant in the CBD is carved out assuming there is no exterior signage that says that they sell alcohol and there is not outdoor seating.

Also, there's a special carve-out for sports stadiums. 

This city sometimes lol.  

IIRC, at least when the stadium was built the measurement was front door to front door, and Annunciation "moved" its main entrance to accommodate the stadium.  Again IIRC that's when Annunciation's fencing on that side went up.

On 11/14/2021 at 3:35 PM, wilcal said:

Just read Chapter 3 Article I of the city ordinance, and you are right, Texas law allows the city to make alcohol free zones.

The default is 300 feet from any public or private school, hospital, or church, and it can be extended up to 1,000 feet.

The city does have the ability to grant variances, but it looks like it has to be voted on by city council. 

Additionally, the ordinance specifically carves out hotels in the central business district. Also, any restaurant in the CBD is carved out assuming there is no exterior signage that says that they sell alcohol and there is not outdoor seating.

Also, there's a special carve-out for sports stadiums. 

This city sometimes lol.  

IIRC, at least when the stadium was built the measurement was front door to front door, and Annunciation "moved" its main entrance to accommodate the stadium.  Again IIRC that's when Annunciation's fencing on that side went up.

On 11/14/2021 at 3:35 PM, wilcal said:

Just read Chapter 3 Article I of the city ordinance, and you are right, Texas law allows the city to make alcohol free zones.

The default is 300 feet from any public or private school, hospital, or church, and it can be extended up to 1,000 feet.

The city does have the ability to grant variances, but it looks like it has to be voted on by city council. 

Additionally, the ordinance specifically carves out hotels in the central business district. Also, any restaurant in the CBD is carved out assuming there is no exterior signage that says that they sell alcohol and there is not outdoor seating.

Also, there's a special carve-out for sports stadiums. 

This city sometimes lol.  

IIRC, at least when the stadium was built the measurement was front door to front door, and Annunciation "moved" its main entrance to accommodate the stadium.  Again IIRC that's when Annunciation's fencing on that side went up.

[mollusk]

Sorry about the repetition - the "submit" button wasn't responding as it normally does.

[Amlaham]

https://houston.culturemap.com/news/restaurants-bars/03-10-22-jackson-st-bbq-closed-bill-floyd-greg-gatlin-bryan-caswell/

Jackson St BBQ is closing

[cspwal]

Quote

the Astros need for additional parking

Why would they need additional parking? They just built a new lot on top of the bones of one of the only bars next to the stadium, and now they’re going knock down one of the only businesses on that side of downtown for more parking? 
 

if that’s an actual reason that’s ridiculous 

[hindesky]

1 hour ago, cspwal said:

 

Why would they need additional parking? They just built a new lot on top of the bones of one of the only bars next to the stadium, and now they’re going knock down one of the only businesses on that side of downtown for more parking? 
 

if that’s an actual reason that’s ridiculous 

Maybe they are preparing for the loss of lot B and C when the IH45 re-route begins? Those 2 lots have a bunch of parking spots.

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by hindesky

[j_cuevas713]

2 hours ago, cspwal said:

 

Why would they need additional parking? They just built a new lot on top of the bones of one of the only bars next to the stadium, and now they’re going knock down one of the only businesses on that side of downtown for more parking? 
 

if that’s an actual reason that’s ridiculous 

No it's just the writer assuming. I honestly believe Crane prob didn't want to renew their lease on the property. He's already said he wants development all around the ballpark on all sides. 

Edited March 12, 2022 by j_cuevas713

[thatguysly]

It'll probably just be temporarily used as parking until they start construction at some point.

[hindesky]

While reading an article in the Miami Standard News with an interview with Jim Crane, this little tidbit caught my eye.

"Crane talks about the change in downtown, with condos and apartments replacing vacant buildings and homes. They plan to build a hotel and have their own entertainment village “becoming more Chicago-esque than it ever has been in the past."

https://miamistandard.news/2022/05/10/as-astros-continue-to-thrive-owner-jim-crane-has-advice-for-other-cheaters-id-keep-my-mouth-shut/?amp=1

 

[HOUCAJUN]

33 minutes ago, hindesky said:

While reading an article in the Miami Standard News with an interview with Jim Crane, this little tidbit caught my eye.

"Crane talks about the change in downtown, with condos and apartments replacing vacant buildings and homes. They plan to build a hotel and have their own entertainment village “becoming more Chicago-esque than it ever has been in the past."

https://miamistandard.news/2022/05/10/as-astros-continue-to-thrive-owner-jim-crane-has-advice-for-other-cheaters-id-keep-my-mouth-shut/?amp=1

 

A hotel? I wonder what brand he could attract? I bet it gets built before that W hotel does.

[CREguy13]

15 hours ago, hindesky said:

While reading an article in the Miami Standard News with an interview with Jim Crane, this little tidbit caught my eye.

"Crane talks about the change in downtown, with condos and apartments replacing vacant buildings and homes. They plan to build a hotel and have their own entertainment village “becoming more Chicago-esque than it ever has been in the past."

https://miamistandard.news/2022/05/10/as-astros-continue-to-thrive-owner-jim-crane-has-advice-for-other-cheaters-id-keep-my-mouth-shut/?amp=1

 

I was at a breakfast last week where Crane was the keynote.  He briefly mentioned their plans and stated a hotel, a lot of entertainment/retail, and possibly high-rise apartments were a part of the plan.

I'm excited about the fact he owns several other lots all around the ball park for future phases.  This will be a very active part of downtown in the next couple years. Hopefully they release the official plans soon.

Edited May 11, 2022 by CREguy13

[H-Town Man]

2 hours ago, CREguy13 said:

I was at a breakfast week where Crane way the keynote.  He briefly mentioned their plans then too and that a hotel, a lot of entertainment/retail, and possibly high-rise apartments were a part of the plan.

I'm excited about the fact he owns several other lots all around the ball park for future phases.  This will be a very active part of downtown in the next couple years. Hopefully they release the official plans soon.

Possibly high-rise apartments? I would certainly think so...

 

[BeerNut]

13 hours ago, HOUCAJUN said:

A hotel? I wonder what brand he could attract? I bet it gets built before that W hotel does.

Maybe a Kimpton since Caydon Laneways deal didn't materialize or maybe a Grand Haytt...  All the other brands I can think of are too high end or already represented in Houston.

[Fortune]

10 hours ago, CREguy13 said:

I was at a breakfast last week where Crane was the keynote.  He briefly mentioned their plans and stated a hotel, a lot of entertainment/retail, and possibly high-rise apartments were a part of the plan.

I'm excited about the fact he owns several other lots all around the ball park for future phases.  This will be a very active part of downtown in the next couple years. Hopefully they release the official plans soon.

What other lots does he own?

[Houston19514]

On 5/11/2022 at 1:28 PM, BeerNut said:

Maybe a Kimpton since Caydon Laneways deal didn't materialize or maybe a Grand Haytt...  All the other brands I can think of are too high end or already represented in Houston.

• Edition
• Sheraton
• Marriott (not Marquis)
• Delta
•   Edit:  removed Le Meridien; I forgot we already have one in the CBD
• Design Hotels
• Renaissance
• Four Points
• Conrad
• Canopy
• Signia
• Doubletree
• Tapestry
• Tempo
• Motto
• Intercontinental
• Six Senses
• Regent
• Vignette
• Crowne Plaza
• Avid
• Radisson Blu
• Red Radisson
• Park Hyatt
• Andaz
• Hyatt Centric
• Caption by Hyatt
• JdV by Hyatt
• Unbound Collection by Hyatt
• Standard Hotels
• Edit:  add Loews
• Edit:  add Omni
• Edit:  add Royal Sonesta
• Edit:  add Sonesta
• Edit:  add Sonesta Select
• Edit:  add Sonesta ES Suites
• Edit:  add Sonesta Simply Suites

Edited May 15, 2022 by Houston19514

[KinkaidAlum]

He'd be insane to not build residential immediately. That gives me pause. The last thing we need is another Green Street. I cannot believe those morons nixed the residential component and went with an boutique office building instead. 

[houstontexasjack]

On 5/11/2022 at 1:28 PM, BeerNut said:

Maybe a Kimpton since Caydon Laneways deal didn't materialize or maybe a Grand Haytt...  All the other brands I can think of are too high end or already represented in Houston.

I’d think Hyatt Centric would also work for a smaller-scale hotel. 

[mattyt36]

5 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

• Edition
• Sheraton
• Marriott (not Marquis)
• Delta
• Le Meridien
• Design Hotels
• Renaissance
• Four Points
• Conrad
• Canopy
• Signia
• Doubletree
• Tapestry
• Tempo
• Motto
• Intercontinental
• Six Senses
• Regent
• Vignette
• Crowne Plaza
• Avid
• Radisson Blu
• Red Radisson
• Park Hyatt
• Andaz
• Hyatt Centric
• Caption by Hyatt
• JdV by Hyatt
• Unbound Collection by Hyatt
• Standard Hotels

I’ll buy you a drink at the rooftop bar of the Le Meridien Houston Downtown as soon as I recover from COVID, H19514.

[asubrt]

7 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

• Edition
• Sheraton
• Marriott (not Marquis)
• Delta
• Le Meridien
• Design Hotels
• Renaissance
• Four Points
• Conrad
• Canopy
• Signia
• Doubletree
• Tapestry
• Tempo
• Motto
• Intercontinental
• Six Senses
• Regent
• Vignette
• Crowne Plaza
• Avid
• Radisson Blu
• Red Radisson
• Park Hyatt
• Andaz
• Hyatt Centric
• Caption by Hyatt
• JdV by Hyatt
• Unbound Collection by Hyatt
• Standard Hotels

A lot of those could theoretically fit, but I will literally go streaking on the field at Minute Maid Park during an Astros game if it was a Six Senses

[Amlaham]

16 hours ago, KinkaidAlum said:

He'd be insane to not build residential immediately. That gives me pause. The last thing we need is another Green Street. I cannot believe those morons nixed the residential component and went with an boutique office building instead. 

I completely agree, I think what our downtown is missing is more residents. Residents are ultimately better than tourists/ hotel users. A constant flow of people utilizing the food halls, Main Street, and other businesses in downtown. Obviously tourists are a plus, but they fluctuate based off the season and what events are in town (unlike residents). 

[mattyt36]

12 hours ago, Amlaham said:

I completely agree, I think what our downtown is missing is more residents. Residents are ultimately better than tourists/ hotel users. A constant flow of people utilizing the food halls, Main Street, and other businesses in downtown. Obviously tourists are a plus, but they fluctuate based off the season and what events are in town (unlike residents). 

Hotel guests are what? Probably 3-5 more times likely to eat out on a given night than a resident (for obvious reasons)? Convention business is also key to developing the tourism market. It’s fair to say a nice mix of both is essential—take a look at any city in that regard.

Edited May 14, 2022 by mattyt36

[thatguysly]

A mix is best. They could use a downtown bar scene by the stadiums. Right now you leave a Rockets or Astros game and go out by PNC or across downtown. If they build some mix use hotels/apts/condos with bars and restaurants on the bottom then you could draw crowds. 

[j_cuevas713]

On 5/13/2022 at 10:47 AM, Amlaham said:

I completely agree, I think what our downtown is missing is more residents. Residents are ultimately better than tourists/ hotel users. A constant flow of people utilizing the food halls, Main Street, and other businesses in downtown. Obviously tourists are a plus, but they fluctuate based off the season and what events are in town (unlike residents). 

Agree. We just have to keep building residential downtown. More residential will spur more mixed-use which will create more energy downtown. 

[H-Town Man]

On 5/13/2022 at 10:45 PM, mattyt36 said:

Hotel guests are what? Probably 3-5 more times likely to eat out on a given night than a resident (for obvious reasons)? Convention business is also key to developing the tourism market. It’s fair to say a nice mix of both is essential—take a look at any city in that regard.

I tried to make this same point in regard to hotel vs. residential a few months ago and the chorus of respondents said that residents would have better taste in where to eat out than hotel guests. Shrug. I agree, a mix of both.

 

[H-Town Man]

On 5/12/2022 at 6:15 PM, KinkaidAlum said:

He'd be insane to not build residential immediately. That gives me pause. The last thing we need is another Green Street. I cannot believe those morons nixed the residential component and went with an boutique office building instead. 

At the time, there was no modern precedent for new residential construction downtown. Marvy Finger's One Park Place was in process of development in a much better location, and even Gerald Hines gave Finger credit for "creating a market" where few thought one could exist.

 

[shasta]

Didn't Randall Davis, with the Rice conversion to Residential, along with a few other pave the way before Fingers?

 

Plus, how many here remember the once proposed residential high rise on the block on Main that used to house a suburban style McDonalds?

[mattyt36]

24 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

I tried to make this same point in regard to hotel vs. residential a few months ago and the chorus of respondents said that residents would have better taste in where to eat out than hotel guests. Shrug. I agree, a mix of both.

 

On top of that basic fact, does anyone have any idea of how many residential units downtown are rented/owned as second home "pied-à-terres"?  I know it at least used to be a significant enough thing at One Park Place.

[Brooklyn173]

A bunch of newer stadiums are going towards the entertainment adjacent commercial hub, moving away from the older stadium surrounded by parking. But from what I've seen, the Cardinals and Texas Rangers and Diamondbacks etc set up is very game day centric. They tend to be as almost empty other times. But the San Diego Petco Stadium is very interesting. Very little stadium parking and adjacent to an existing entertainment district. Even the Tony Gwynn Park shifts from a neighborhood park to part of the stadium with the opening and closing of gates. So it is available to the community. I hope whatever Crane does is not just a Minute Made asset, but is a city asset.

[Texasota]

Something more like the Nationals' set up in DC would be nice.

[mattyt36]

43 minutes ago, Brooklyn173 said:

A bunch of newer stadiums are going towards the entertainment adjacent commercial hub, moving away from the older stadium surrounded by parking. But from what I've seen, the Cardinals and Texas Rangers and Diamondbacks etc set up is very game day centric. They tend to be as almost empty other times. 

I was in Phoenix a month ago, luckily when the Astros were there, so I saw the Chase Field setup, which I didn't remember from before.  Do those essentially just operate as outside-of-the-park concessions owned by the team?  If so, yes, please, none of that.

The Reds stadium has some decent stuff around it.  Seems like the proximity to the Convention Center should help bring year-round foot traffic.

And, knowing Tilman to be the competitive guy he is, hopefully he'd do something for the Toyota Center, with the caveat that he doesn't own any of the surrounding land, of course.

[arche_757]

2 hours ago, Texasota said:

Something more like the Nationals' set up in DC would be nice.

Isn’t that what Crane mentioned?  Either that or the Atlanta development, which should be very fresh in his mind having visited it over the course of the World Series last season.

[j_cuevas713]

3 hours ago, Brooklyn173 said:

A bunch of newer stadiums are going towards the entertainment adjacent commercial hub, moving away from the older stadium surrounded by parking. But from what I've seen, the Cardinals and Texas Rangers and Diamondbacks etc set up is very game day centric. They tend to be as almost empty other times. But the San Diego Petco Stadium is very interesting. Very little stadium parking and adjacent to an existing entertainment district. Even the Tony Gwynn Park shifts from a neighborhood park to part of the stadium with the opening and closing of gates. So it is available to the community. I hope whatever Crane does is not just a Minute Made asset, but is a city asset.

That's the advantage our ballpark has being built downtown. The Rangers aren't going to get much revenue in their entertainment district outside of games, and it's because of the location and the sea of parking around the stadium. SD is right downtown so it's easy to access and check out on non game days, which makes it a 24hr spot for fans. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by j_cuevas713

[Texasota]

DC's is much better tied into surrounding neighborhoods and the city as a whole though.

Some of that is built in to Minute Maid's location, but I'd hate to see whatever Crane develops become a weird inward-looking theme park that turns its back on the rest of the city.

[arche_757]

Shamrock Tower?  Woulda been better than the suburban McDonald’s that was located there.

 

I would assume the development will not just be focused solely around Baseball.  I hope. 😬 

[Twinsanity02]

5 hours ago, shasta said:

Didn't Randall Davis, with the Rice conversion to Residential, along with a few other pave the way before Fingers?

 

Plus, how many here remember the once proposed residential high rise on the block on Main that used to house a suburban style McDonalds?

Yes he did. I remember waiting for the bus by the Rice before it was transformed. The smell of frequent urination and whatever was hideous. North of the Rice on Main St. it wasn't much better

[editor]

On 5/13/2022 at 10:45 PM, mattyt36 said:

Hotel guests are what? Probably 3-5 more times likely to eat out on a given night than a resident (for obvious reasons)? Convention business is also key to developing the tourism market. It’s fair to say a nice mix of both is essential—take a look at any city in that regard.

I saw this illustrated very well this past Sunday.

The Astros were playing in Washington.  Main Street was almost a ghost town.  Normally, when the Astros are playing in town, the whole area is jumping. 

Here's my personal economic indicator:  When I go to Frank's, it's almost always at the same time on the same days.  Frank's receipts are numbered sequentially, resetting at the beginning of each day.  If it's an ordinary day, I might be order #250.  If there's a baseball game at Minute Maid Park, I'm generally order 500+.

I'm not big on sportsball, but even I can't deny its economic impact.

[H-Town Man]

21 hours ago, shasta said:

Didn't Randall Davis, with the Rice conversion to Residential, along with a few other pave the way before Fingers?

 

Plus, how many here remember the once proposed residential high rise on the block on Main that used to house a suburban style McDonalds?

I said there was no modern precedent for "new residential construction downtown." The Randall Davis stuff was renovations of older buildings, which is much easier to pull off financially, and it did pave the way in a sense. But the two proposed high rises that died before breaking ground - Ballpark Place and The Shamrock (the one you're referring to) - were basically blood in the water that served as a warning for developers trying to build new residential downtown.

 

[toxtethogrady]

20 hours ago, mattyt36 said:

And, knowing Tilman to be the competitive guy he is, hopefully he'd do something for the Toyota Center, with the caveat that he doesn't own any of the surrounding land, of course.

First thing is make the Rockets competitive again. Second is bring in that NHL franchise.

[mattyt36]

13 minutes ago, toxtethogrady said:

First thing is make the Rockets competitive again. Second is bring in that NHL franchise.

Well, I've definitely done my part by bringing out the big guns (@august948 would be proud!) by posting my opinions on the subject of the NHL Houston Aeros on this very message board.  Guess I will have to sharpen my pencil and write a letter to the editor of the Houston Chronicle, that should do it!  🤣

[august948]

1 hour ago, mattyt36 said:

Well, I've definitely done my part by bringing out the big guns (@august948 would be proud!) by posting my opinions on the subject of the NHL Houston Aeros on this very message board.  Guess I will have to sharpen my pencil and write a letter to the editor of the Houston Chronicle, that should do it!  🤣

[mattyt36]

33 minutes ago, august948 said:

I see what you're doing, trying to get me to click the LOVE button there, Augie 🤣

[august948]

43 minutes ago, mattyt36 said:

I see what you're doing, trying to get me to click the LOVE button there, Augie 🤣

Just commenting metaphorically on your mad letter writing skills, brother.

[H-Town Man]

20 hours ago, mattyt36 said:

I see what you're doing, trying to get me to click the LOVE button there, Augie 🤣

Apparently when this was broadcast they actually had "Na Ga Da" written on the cue card. 

 

[jmitch94]

With spring training right around the corner I imagine this won’t start until next off season. Any news that hasn’t been posted? 

[shasta]

17 hours ago, jmitch94 said:

With spring training right around the corner I imagine this won’t start until next off season. Any news that hasn’t been posted? 

I thought they were going to release the renderings at LAST year's Fan Fest!

[steve1363]

4 hours ago, shasta said:

I thought they were going to release the renderings at LAST year's Fan Fest!

Crane is like Rich Kinder.  When he does something he does it right!  Patience...

[nate4l1f3]

I have high hopes for this. I hope I don’t get disappointed!

[tigereye]

On 2/10/2021 at 9:57 AM, wilcal said:

New Chron article on the topic: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Historic-home-in-shadow-of-Minute-Maid-Park-on-15937594.php

Also says that Astros agreed to being mixed-use development within four year of May 2020. 

 

Reminder: Astros have agreement with city council to begin development within 4 years of May 2020. 

We should probably see news/renderings on this sometime this year or by 2024 FanFest. 

Edited Thursday at 03:44 PM by tigereye

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, tigereye said:

Reminder: Astros have agreement with city council to begin development within 4 years of May 2020. 

We should probably see news/renderings on this sometime this year or by 2024 FanFest. 

Interesting.  Thanks for the reminders.  (Of course, that's as reported by the Chronicle, so . . .  😉 )

[shasta]

2 hours ago, tigereye said:

Reminder: Astros have agreement with city council to begin development within 4 years of May 2020. 

We should probably see news/renderings on this sometime this year or by 2024 FanFest. 

Does anyone even know which Developer the Astros are working with?

I haven't heard anything about this project other than rumors here.