Minute Maid Park Mixed-Use Development

[tangledwoods]

Quote

I'm pretty sure he is being sarcastic, although knocking down historic buildings on a prime lot and paving it over would be peak Houston.  

My post was definitely sarcastic, but I will expand: (I dont have top secret knowledge of astros planning).  Long term this will likely end of as a cool development similar to Texas Live or other recent ballpark adjacent developments.

BUT, revenue is horrible right now for all sports teams and 2021 isnt exactly looking phenomenal for ticket sales.  My gut tells me that they will scrape the site, asphalt the thing for the short term and have it ready to go when their long term plans finalize.

[shasta]

So what is the official name of the developer that is putting this together? I know it is Astros related but I'm thinking they have a development company running it.

[nate4l1f3]

2 hours ago, tangledwoods said:

My post was definitely sarcastic, but I will expand: (I dont have top secret knowledge of astros planning).  Long term this will likely end of as a cool development similar to Texas Live or other recent ballpark adjacent developments.

BUT, revenue is horrible right now for all sports teams and 2021 isnt exactly looking phenomenal for ticket sales.  My gut tells me that they will scrape the site, asphalt the thing for the short term and have it ready to go when their long term plans finalize.

Remember they would still have to build the thing and things are looking a little better with vaccines and limited capacity in stadiums. By the time it’s built maybe things are closer to normal?   

[Houston19514]

Has anyone been down there in the last couple of days?  Has the locomotive been moved?  Has the house been moved, or is it being moved?

[nate4l1f3]

1 minute ago, Houston19514 said:

Has anyone been down there in the last couple of days?  Has the locomotive been moved?  Has the house been moved, or is it being moved?

The pics I posted were from yesterday. Locomotive was still there as well as the house but with plans to move both. Someone has the plans on the previous page. 

[tigereye]

16 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

Has anyone been down there in the last couple of days?  Has the locomotive been moved?  Has the house been moved, or is it being moved?

I was there on Sunday. Both Cohn house and SP982 steam engine were still there but will be moved. 
 

Per the SP982 forum on FB: 

1. SP982 will be moved about a mile away, they are finalizing location and hope to announce in the next few days. Their goal is to restore the train to running condition again, although they’ve had issues with the city accidentally selling the tender.
 

2. Cohn House will be moved to a lot in between MMP and 59 for now. Will be moved again when 59 is demolished for the reroute. 
 

https://www.facebook.com/1717138895199170/posts/2832130923699956/?d=n

Edited February 9, 2021 by tigereye

[tigereye]

21 hours ago, tangledwoods said:

My post was definitely sarcastic, but I will expand: (I dont have top secret knowledge of astros planning).  Long term this will likely end of as a cool development similar to Texas Live or other recent ballpark adjacent developments.

BUT, revenue is horrible right now for all sports teams and 2021 isnt exactly looking phenomenal for ticket sales.  My gut tells me that they will scrape the site, asphalt the thing for the short term and have it ready to go when their long term plans finalize.

You were right. It’ll become a parking lot first. The design for the mixed use development isn’t complete yet. 

SP982 will be transferred to the Texas Railroading Heritage Museum

Cohn House will be moved one block north of MMP temporarily, then eventually relocated to a city park east of 59.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Historic-home-in-shadow-of-Minute-Maid-Park-on-15937594.php?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=socialflow&fbclid=IwAR1w8_AGFqSP8lMpAL0Xf9ClqRu1G0-BmHfwYBHwD0JSze09RxiQu63Wk7Q

Edited February 10, 2021 by tigereye

[HNathoo]

"The Houston Astros purchased the 1.738 acres where it and a historic locomotive sits through an affiliate for $17 million in 2019 and broke ground this week on what will eventually become a retail and residential development."

 

If they do residential, let's hope they build something similar to One Cardinal Way in St. Louis. That building is gorgeous!

 

https://onecardinalway.com/

[wilcal]

New Chron article on the topic: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Historic-home-in-shadow-of-Minute-Maid-Park-on-15937594.php

 

Confirmation from Astros that it'll be used for parking short term.

City is paying to move the Cohn House and it'll be in a park east of 59 as mentioned.

Also says that Astros agreed to being mixed-use development within four year of May 2020. 

 

[X.R.]

Thinking about this, the area around the stadium has always been a very affordable gameday experience, especially those two bars. Alcohol/food was reasonable, and atmosphere was generally v relaxed.

While I hope they build something exceptional and inviting, I also hope they don't lose sight of the general astros fan. It can't all be 8 dollars beers and 15 dollar craft burgers for the faithful showing up at 1 on a Tuesday or a Fri/Saturday game during a season when they suck (and the astros have had more than a few of those). The dynamo organically have a great gameday experience because the bars around it satisfy multiple price points and offer different gameday experiences.

Whatever they build, hopefully its robust enough to make a person say "we have to get there 2-3 hours early, I want to eat at X and drink at Y and if we're a little late getting inside thats OK because they show the game in the plaza." Without destroying their wallets. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by X.R.

[Houston19514]

33 minutes ago, X.R. said:

Thinking about this, the area around the stadium has always been a very affordable gameday experience, especially those two bars. Alcohol/food was reasonable, and atmosphere was generally v relaxed.

While I hope they build something exceptional and inviting, I also hope they don't lose sight of the general astros fan. It can't all be 8 dollars beers and 15 dollar craft burgers for the faithful showing up at 1 on a Tuesday or a Fri/Saturday game during a season when they suck (and the astros have had more than a few of those). The dynamo organically have a great gameday experience because the bars around it satisfy multiple price points and offer different gameday experiences.

Whatever they build, hopefully its robust enough to make a person say "we have to get there 2-3 hours early, I want to eat at X and drink at Y and if we're a little late getting inside thats OK because they show the game in the plaza." Without destroying their wallets. 

The good news is, no matter what they build on this site, the bars near BBVA Stadium are very accessible to Astros fans.  And will be even more pleasantly accessible when the freeways are moved below grade and capped.  Very exciting times ahead for this part of town.

[tigereye]

7 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

The good news is, no matter what they build on this site, the bars near BBVA Stadium are very accessible to Astros fans.  And will be even more pleasantly accessible when the freeways are moved below grade and capped.  Very exciting times ahead for this part of town.

The bad news is bars west of St Emanuel are goners due to highway expansion. And to the bars that survive, it won’t be as easy to access during construction of the 59/45 double tunnel, which I’d guess will take a few years. 

Because of the latter, the Astros may want to hurry up and build their mixed use as a way to take advantage of the 59/45 tunnel construction period to pull in more business at their investment. 

[H-Town Man]

More historic storefront buildings destroyed downtown, an unfortunate trend that has slowed but not stopped over the past two decades. For most of us, bars/restaurants in little old storefront buildings are more interesting than bars/restaurants in new construction, and fine-grained development (multiple smaller-footprint buildings) is more interesting than huge buildings that fill up a whole block. The few times I went there, these places had a Wrigleyville-type atmosphere. Now there will be no food or drink options around Minute Maid that aren't in new/recent construction.

 

[Houston19514]

2 minutes ago, tigereye said:

The bad news is bars west of St Emanuel are goners due to highway expansion. And to the bars that survive, it won’t be as easy to access during construction of the 59/45 double tunnel, which I’d guess will take a few years. 

Because of the latter, the Astros may want to hurry up and build their mixed use as a way to take advantage of the 59/45 tunnel construction period to pull in more business at their investment. 

More good news . . .  I believe there are only two bars (Lucky's and Little Woodrow's) on the west of St. Emanuel.  I would expect both to relocate somewhere in the neighborhood.   :-)

[thedistrict84]

31 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

The good news is, no matter what they build on this site, the bars near BBVA Stadium are very accessible to Astros fans.  And will be even more pleasantly accessible when the freeways are moved below grade and capped.  Very exciting times ahead for this part of town.

I'm curious as to how you figure moving the freeways from elevated to tunneled and capped will make these bars "even more pleasantly accessible." You will still have the same basic issues. A fully developed greenspace/park on top of the cap would be welcome, but any development of the cap is not part of the TXDoT/federal funding, as only the basic concrete cap itself is included. I'm not sure about you, but I am a bit uneasy about relying on foundations and major corporations to put up the money to develop it, given the current economic climate. 

And if you think removing the de facto feeder road that is present day Chartres will be a benefit, think again: under the realignment, St. Emanuel will be the new de facto feeder road for essentially double the freeway capacity. Aside from knocking out bars to the west of St. Emanuel (including Little Woodrow's, Neil's Bahr, and True Anomaly), the ones that do remain on the other side of St. Emanuel will now front what is essentially a feeder road. All the traffic calming in the world isn't going to meaningfully improve the situation. 

As a resident of the immediate area for the last seven years, I--and I am sure many others--do not share your enthusiasm.  

[nate4l1f3]

Duplicate

Edited February 10, 2021 by nate4l1f3

[tigereye]

6 hours ago, tigereye said:

You were right. It’ll become a parking lot first. The design for the mixed use development isn’t complete yet. 

SP982 will be transferred to the Texas Railroading Heritage Museum

Cohn House will be moved one block north of MMP temporarily, then eventually relocated to a city park east of 59.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Historic-home-in-shadow-of-Minute-Maid-Park-on-15937594.php?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=socialflow&fbclid=IwAR1w8_AGFqSP8lMpAL0Xf9ClqRu1G0-BmHfwYBHwD0JSze09RxiQu63Wk7Q

Chronicle has corrected their article. Initially they stated SP982 Steam Engine was going to be moved to the Texas Railroading Heritage Museum. 

Now Tony Marron Park is being discussed as a potential location.

If the Astros aren’t ready to build their mixed use, SP982 doesn’t have a home finalized yet, and the Cohn house has no decided final location - why are they even bulldozing the lot and making all these moves? Nobody is even ready. Ridiculous. 
 

Quote

We’re thrilled to help find a home for the 982 that serves the people of Houston and honors its heritage, having been built in 1913,” he said. “We don’t know yet what the final picture is going to look like. … We are discussing a potential location in Tony Marron Park.”

Edited February 10, 2021 by tigereye

[Houston19514]

2 hours ago, thedistrict84 said:

I'm curious as to how you figure moving the freeways from elevated to tunneled and capped will make these bars "even more pleasantly accessible." You will still have the same basic issues. A fully developed greenspace/park on top of the cap would be welcome, but any development of the cap is not part of the TXDoT/federal funding, as only the basic concrete cap itself is included. I'm not sure about you, but I am a bit uneasy about relying on foundations and major corporations to put up the money to develop it, given the current economic climate. 

And if you think removing the de facto feeder road that is present day Chartres will be a benefit, think again: under the realignment, St. Emanuel will be the new de facto feeder road for essentially double the freeway capacity. Aside from knocking out bars to the west of St. Emanuel (including Little Woodrow's, Neil's Bahr, and True Anomaly), the ones that do remain on the other side of St. Emanuel will now front what is essentially a feeder road. All the traffic calming in the world isn't going to meaningfully improve the situation. 

As a resident of the immediate area for the last seven years, I--and I am sure many others--do not share your enthusiasm.  

Because the cap development is going to happen and traffic calming measures can indeed meaningfully improve the situation.  We shall see, won't we?  I think in a minimum 10 years' time, you'll be shocked.

[thedistrict84]

18 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

Because the cap development is going to happen and traffic calming measures can indeed meaningfully improve the situation.  We shall see, won't we?  I think in a minimum 10 years' time, you'll be shocked.

I admire your optimism, and the faith you have in Houston drivers not driving too fast or recklessly for once, especially immediately after exiting a freeway. At a minimum, the walkability of St. Emanuel will be negatively impacted.

As someone who lives less than a mile from MMP, walks to 20+ games a year, and spends a lot of time at the bars and restaurants around here and MMP (pre-COVID at least), I am very worried that this is not going to work out well, and kill all of the effort that the City and local business owners have put into making this a relatively appealing and enjoyable part of town.

[j_cuevas713]

I’m really annoyed no design has been released for this. And I’m even more annoyed both buildings were destroyed for a temporary parking lot. This is a huge loss for the area right before the start of the season. I’m worried this is going to drag on before Crane decides to ever do anything with it. 

[jmitch94]

42 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said:

I’m really annoyed no design has been released for this. And I’m even more annoyed both buildings were destroyed for a temporary parking lot. This is a huge loss for the area right before the start of the season. I’m worried this is going to drag on before Crane decides to ever do anything with it. 

I agree. I can see these remaining as a parking lot for a long time. 
 

All of this talk of the sinking of 59 has me pretty depressed too. That part of St. Emanuel is a lot of fun and has come so far in the past decade and it’s all about to be flushed down the toilet so some suburbanites can save 10 minutes on their commute for a few years before it’s just as bad as it was before. 

[tigereye]

48 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said:

I’m really annoyed no design has been released for this. And I’m even more annoyed both buildings were destroyed for a temporary parking lot. This is a huge loss for the area right before the start of the season. I’m worried this is going to drag on before Crane decides to ever do anything with it. 

They’ve got 4 years to do something. I think it’ll happen in that time, if not sooner.

I just want it NOW. GIMME RENDERS NOW!

Quote

When city council approved of some of the plans for the land in May of 2020, said Benton, the Astros agreed it would begin its mixed-use development within four years and bring the plans to the city for review.

Edited February 10, 2021 by tigereye

[hindesky]

reddit u/the_nayhee posted this pic of the demo.

[Ross]

10 hours ago, hindesky said:

reddit u/the_nayhee posted this pic of the demo.

My initial reaction of this picture was "OMG, an excavator has run amok". I guess it's the lighting, the dust, and general disarray that did it, along with the remaining parts of the building looking a bit squashed. Early morning imagination.

[Nate99]

15 hours ago, jmitch94 said:

I agree. I can see these remaining as a parking lot for a long time. 
 

All of this talk of the sinking of 59 has me pretty depressed too. That part of St. Emanuel is a lot of fun and has come so far in the past decade and it’s all about to be flushed down the toilet so some suburbanites can save 10 minutes on their commute for a few years before it’s just as bad as it was before. 

You're more optimistic than this suburbanite. After seeing all of the designs, I am not convinced that any additional car traffic capacity will be enabled by the whole scheme. It may be needed for whatever reason, but I don't think it's actually going to improve anyone's commute, and if it does, I agree that it won't be better for long and on net, probably won't make up for time lost during construction based on status quo.

The construction mess is going to be the worst of it for that neighborhood, I would imagine, apart from the actual buildings that are getting mowed down.   At the end of it, you could have something notably better, but this kind of thing is what kills off popular bar districts.  

 

[Houston19514]

17 hours ago, thedistrict84 said:

I admire your optimism, and the faith you have in Houston drivers not driving too fast or recklessly for once, especially immediately after exiting a freeway. At a minimum, the walkability of St. Emanuel will be negatively impacted.

As someone who lives less than a mile from MMP, walks to 20+ games a year, and spends a lot of time at the bars and restaurants around here and MMP (pre-COVID at least), I am very worried that this is not going to work out well, and kill all of the effort that the City and local business owners have put into making this a relatively appealing and enjoyable part of town.

Traffic Lights/Stop Signs every 325' go a long way to calm traffic, even cars that were recently on a freeway. In spite of it being a "de facto feeder road", St Emanuel will not be much like a standard feeder road.

As someone who lives in central Houston, takes the train into the neighborhood many times a year, spends a lot of time at the bars and restaurants around here and MMP, and is very familiar with the plans, I am very excited about the plans to boost this part of town into one of the most attractive, exciting, interesting and walkable areas of Houston.  :-)

Edited February 11, 2021 by Houston19514

[H-Town Man]

If the cap park is built - big if - it might not be so bad for St. Emanuel. If there is no cap park, I don't have much hope for a street that fronts one of the world's largest freeways. Businesses along frontage roads almost always tend to be seedy, just like businesses around train stations or bus stations in most places in the world. There's something about transportation that brings the seediness out.

 

[Texasota]

Weird to lump train stations in with that.

[H-Town Man]

1 hour ago, Texasota said:

Weird to lump train stations in with that.

Why? 

 

[thedistrict84]

4 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

Traffic Lights/Stop Signs every 325' go a long way to calm traffic, even cars that were recently on a freeway. In spite of it being a "de facto feeder road", St Emanuel will not be much like a standard feeder road.

As someone who lives in central Houston, takes the train into the neighborhood many times a year, spends a lot of time at the bars and restaurants around here and MMP, and is very familiar with the plans, I am very excited about the plans to boost this part of town into one of the most attractive, exciting, interesting and walkable areas of Houston.  :-)

If you are familiar with the plans, then you will recall that there is an abbreviated exit ramp which dumps eastbound freeway traffic onto St. Emanuel right at East Village, which is very much the heart of the most walkable segment of this area. It is borderline delusional to think that that arrangement will not have a negative impact on walkability and detrimentally affect businesses in the immediate area (if they even manage to survive the several years that construction will take).