Minute Maid Park Mixed-Use Development

[Brandon55]

Anybody know anything about this 

[CREguy13]

At one point, Crane's plan was to turn these blocks into a park that would act as a grand entrance to MMP. 

 

Perhaps the Astros success having changed his thinking on these sites... Look forward  to learning of his plans.

[mattyt36]

Wondered how long this would take. Great news!

[Brandon55]

1 minute ago, mattyt36 said:

Wondered how long this would take. Great news!

 I salute them for wanting  wanting to add to the area. The fact that in the article they mention building something that will go with the neighborhood is what I like to hear. 

[ZRFkris]

I always look at that house and wonder when? 🤣 wow

[Purdueenginerd]

Thats interesting. Is it common for MLB teams to be in the development industry for mixed use, etc?

[Subdude]

10 minutes ago, Purdueenginerd said:

Thats interesting. Is it common for MLB teams to be in the development industry for mixed use, etc?

 

Yes, I think pro teams increasingly try to bundle mixed-use projects in with new stadium developments.  It's another source of revenue for them.

[Purdueenginerd]

4 minutes ago, Subdude said:

 

Yes, I think pro teams increasingly try to bundle mixed-use projects in with new stadium developments.  It's another source of revenue for them.

 

First I've heard of this, I guess from a pure development standpoint it makes sense and is positive. But breaking into political discussion here a little bit,  is there evidence of MLB teams using these style developments as leverage against the public for stadium subsidies? I generally oppose subsidizing taxpayer dollars for new stadiums, but that dynamic could change if said MLB team is building hotels, apartments, and a litany of other businesses. 

[houstontexasjack]

3 minutes ago, Purdueenginerd said:

 

First I've heard of this, I guess from a pure development standpoint it makes sense and is positive. But breaking into political discussion here a little bit,  is there evidence of MLB teams using these style developments as leverage against the public for stadium subsidies? I generally oppose subsidizing taxpayer dollars for new stadiums, but that dynamic could change if said MLB team is building hotels, apartments, and a litany of other businesses. 

What’s going on in some cases (e.g. the proposed Oakland A’s new stadium) is that the taxpayers are essentially putting up the land with tax breaks. The owner gets to develop with private funds. Tax revenue is not actually used for construction, although there is the opportunity cost for the use of the land and less new tax revenue than might be had with a non-stadium related mixed use development.

[Brandon55]

I'm not really surprised  more and more teams are trying to make their stadiums  destinations  places outside of just attending the games.  That leaves stadiums like MMP , which were built before the MIX use craze,to have to use the land around them.  Let's be honest that back end of MMP is kind of a dead zone. If a hotel/residential / Entertainment  is built all the better for DT.

[j_cuevas713]

Wow downtown is booming! I remember Crane mentioning something about a park but this would help continue to create a village vibe around the ballpark. Exciting!

[C List]

1 hour ago, Purdueenginerd said:

Thats interesting. Is it common for MLB teams to be in the development industry for mixed use, etc?

Yes, Jerry Jones has set the standard for this and his real estate plays are a big reason the Cowboys franchise's valuation has gone through the roof. While this is not the stadium, to do what he did at a practice facility is unreal.

 

https://www.thestarinfrisco.com/

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by C List
Adding map

[j_cuevas713]

1 minute ago, C List said:

Yes, Jerry Jones has set the standard for this and his real estate plays are a big reason the Cowboys franchise's valuation has gone through the roof. While this is not the stadium, to do what he did at a practice facility is unreal.

 

https://www.thestarinfrisco.com/

I get your point but gross 

[CaptainJilliams]

1 hour ago, Purdueenginerd said:

Thats interesting. Is it common for MLB teams to be in the development industry for mixed use, etc?

 

I believe so, I know St. Louis, San Diego, and Washington D.C. have mixed-use developments surrounding their stadiums.

 

And I know Denver is in the process of completing theirs, as seen below:

 

^^^ Again, this is in Denver, CO.

[HNathoo]

Houston may get it's own version of Wriglyville

[mattyt36]

1 hour ago, CaptainJilliams said:

 

I believe so, I know St. Louis, San Diego, and Washington D.C. have mixed-use developments surrounding their stadiums.

 

And I know Denver is in the process of completing theirs, as seen below:

 

^^^ Again, this is in Denver, CO.

 

Also the Braves’ new stadium

 

https://www.multifamilyexecutive.com/design-development/atlanta-developer-takes-on-mixed-use-development-next-to-braves-new-baseball-stadium_o

[DNAguy]

24 minutes ago, HNathoo said:

Houston may get it's own version of Wriglyville

 

As town? 😉

Stros-berg?

I like Stros-berg.

 

[H-Town Man]

So this is the vacant land on both sides of Chenevert Street? The blue house is on one side and the locomotive is on the other.

 

[jmitch94]

The Rangers new stadium has a large mixed use area outside if I remember correctly. I feel it could work here better because our stadium is in downtown instead of being in a development island like the Rangers. 

[j_cuevas713]

35 minutes ago, DNAguy said:

 

As town? 😉

Stros-berg?

I like Stros-berg.

 

Juice Land? Lol Jk

[SMU1213]

John Moore's (ex-owner of the Padres, from San Antonio/Houston) investment company (JMI) masterplanned and developed the area around the Padres' stadium. 

[cspwal]

The Angel's are also doing something similar, though half-heartedly https://www.anaheim.net/1072/Platinum-Triangle

It looks like they are trying to urbanfify it with apartments, by taking chunks out of the parking lot sea, but there's still a lot of parking that won't be touched

[HoustonMidtown]

Not sure if there is anything new here:

 

Astros-affiliated company buys land across from Minute Maid Park (from ABC13.com)

 

https://abc13.co/2P7yuTU

 

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by HoustonMidtown

[j_cuevas713]

Aren't we all glad the Stros put their stadium Downtown? I mean we have the best ballpark in TX. Regardless of what the rangers are building in the middle of nowhere, nothing beats having your ballpark in the middle of the city. 

[wilcal]

Packers have Titletown. Looks like they're adding a townhome component. 

 

Edit: Also, this must include the Home Plate Bar & Grill lot, too, right?

 

It says it's a 1.7 acre parcel, but 1800 Texas is only 1/3 of an acre. 

 

Edit2: Home Plate has the 1800 Texas address, so evidently duh. HTX Fan Tavern doesn't. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by wilcal

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, H-Town Man said:

So this is the vacant land on both sides of Chenevert Street? The blue house is on one side and the locomotive is on the other.

 

 

Yes, it appears to include the land on both sides of Chenevert.

[H-Town Man]

10 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

Yes, it appears to include the land on both sides of Chenevert.

 

Have you seen more information or are you just going by what I said?

 

[H-Town Man]

Ok, did a little digging. So City of Houston owns the land on both sides of Chenevert, with a total of 42,209 SF or just under an acre contiguous. Any sale probably includes an agreement to abandon Chenevert (otherwise no way it's worth $17 million), so that adds another 11,250 SF for a total of 53,459 SF. There is a little parcel owned by TxDOT just east of the locomotive and then some small tracts owned by the city, none of which I'm including until we know further. So at $17 million, that is $318/SF. Pretty good land value for our little downtown, especially considering there is no tunnel access and configuration is suboptimal with those bars there.

 

[H-Town Man]

Alright then, so only $225/SF. Still pretty strong. It must include those other parcels south of the bars/east of the locomotive.

 

[gene]

They need to have at least one large feature ride...maybe a tower ride to see the city or large rocket ride or combine the rocket shaped observation tower with a free fall drop ride and then name the whole area/development Astroworld... #RIP 

🚀

Edited August 15, 2019 by gene

[mollusk]

25 minutes ago, gene said:

They need to have at least one large feature ride...maybe a tower ride to see the city or large rocket ride or combine the rocket shaped observation tower with a free fall drop ride and then name the whole area/development Astroworld... #RIP 

🚀

 

Maybe rebuild the Continental Astroneedle... that'll get two bygone names with one stroke.

[thatguysly]

The Rangers copied Minute Maid Park for their new stadium and now the Astros are copying their mix use around the stadium

[mattyt36]

4 hours ago, cspwal said:

The Angel's are also doing something similar, though half-heartedly https://www.anaheim.net/1072/Platinum-Triangle

It looks like they are trying to urbanfify it with apartments, by taking chunks out of the parking lot sea, but there's still a lot of parking that won't be touched

 

That can’t be the Angels considering they’re talking about moving to Long Beach.

[Angostura]

21 hours ago, Purdueenginerd said:

Thats interesting. Is it common for MLB teams to be in the development industry for mixed use, etc?

 

 

Up until recently, the approach had been to surround stadiums with nothing but acres of parking, so people had no choice but to pay $18 for a beer inside the venue. This approach is... better.

[cspwal]

So looking at all the MLB stadiums, it looks like:

14/30 have a lot of surface lots around the stadium (including the Mets - that's probably the largest area of parking lots in all of NYC)

5/30 have or are building a "ball park village" mixed use development.  They are all in the NL for some reason.  Maybe you need more bars for the pitchers to cool off in after grounding out weakly to 1st base?

A lot of the stadiums already have some development around the stadium

24/30 have rail transit stop at or near the stadium

A lot of them are next to rivers, highways.

A lot are downtown or at least in-town now.

[cougarpad]

4 hours ago, Angostura said:

 

 

Up until recently, the approach had been to surround stadiums with nothing but acres of parking, so people had no choice but to pay $18 for a beer inside the venue. This approach is... better.

You can blame Aramark and their overpriced and crappy food for the ridiculous beer prices at Houston sports events. It amazes me how they basically have a monopoly on all the sporting venues. UH wisely just gave Aramark the boot from its sports facilities. I know many UH fans are happy about it.

[mollusk]

42 minutes ago, cspwal said:

5/30 have or are building a "ball park village" mixed use development.  They are all in the NL for some reason.  Maybe you need more bars for the pitchers to cool off in after grounding out weakly to 1st base?

 

Heyyyyyy... everyone knows that the DH is a Commie plot. *

 

*(loyal Astros fan since they were the Colt 45s, who still thinks $elig should have put his daughter's Brewers in the AL if he really wanted to "balance" things)

[mattyt36]

1 hour ago, cougarpad said:

You can blame Aramark and their overpriced and crappy food for the ridiculous beer prices at Houston sports events. It amazes me how they basically have a monopoly on all the sporting venues. UH wisely just gave Aramark the boot from its sports facilities. I know many UH fans are happy about it.

 

Um, no, you can blame the HCSA for giving them the concession contract.

[shasta]

Didn't that part of downtown used to be known as Frost Town? that would be cool if they brought that back. 

[cougarpad]

1 hour ago, mattyt36 said:

 

Um, no, you can blame the HCSA for giving them the concession contract.

There also has to be some shenanigans going on that somehow HCSA always chooses Aramark. Like to know if some of the board members own stock in Aramark or there is some under the table money exchanging hands. 

[bobruss]

1 hour ago, shasta said:

Didn't that part of downtown used to be known as Frost Town? that would be cool if they brought that back. 

I believe the area around Minute Maid  was known as Quality Hill. 

I think Frost town was bit farther east and maybe on the north side of the bayou.

Edited August 16, 2019 by bobruss

[Angostura]

2 hours ago, mattyt36 said:

 

Um, no, you can blame the HCSA for giving them the concession contract.

 

AFAIK, the Astros retain all revenue from concessions at MMP, and the agreement with Aramark is with the team, not HCSA.

 

It's important to remember: much like Ticketmaster, the ticket-buying fan is not Aramark's customer, and much like Ticketmaster, Aramark is very good at delivering value to their ACTUAL customers, the venue operators.

[H-Town Man]

1 hour ago, bobruss said:

I believe the area around Minute Maid  was known as Quality Hill. 

I think Frost town was bit farther east and maybe on the north side of the bayou.

 

Correct on Quality Hill. I think Frost Town was on the south side/right bank of the bayou. The Buffalo Bayou Master Plan calls for a "Frost Town Urban Garden" where the electric substation is along McKee Street, IIRC.

 

[Houston19514]

4 hours ago, mattyt36 said:

 

Um, no, you can blame the HCSA for giving them the concession contract.

 

The Astros control concessions at MinuteMaid Park and the Astros gave Aramark the contract.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Houston19514

[ZRFkris]

What all does the 1.7 acre parcel entail 

[ZRFkris]

1 hour ago, ZRFkris said:

What all does the 1.7 acre parcel entail 

Is it the entire block including home plate?

[bobruss]

3 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

 

Correct on Quality Hill. I think Frost Town was on the south side/right bank of the bayou. The Buffalo Bayou Master Plan calls for a "Frost Town Urban Garden" where the electric substation is along McKee Street, IIRC.

 

It's over near Kirk Farris's park on the east side of the Metro bus terminal and the warehouses. He's been working on this project for at least 30 years. He's responsible for the painting of the colorful bridge. I believe it's in honor of James Bute who owned the  the Bute paint bldg, which housed his paint company. James Bute also opened one of the earliest galleries in Houston.

[mattyt36]

9 hours ago, Angostura said:

 

AFAIK, the Astros retain all revenue from concessions at MMP, and the agreement with Aramark is with the team, not HCSA.

 

It's important to remember: much like Ticketmaster, the ticket-buying fan is not Aramark's customer, and much like Ticketmaster, Aramark is very good at delivering value to their ACTUAL customers, the venue operators.

 

Thanks for that. You are correct, although I’m sure it’s no coincidence Aramark runs the concessions at NRG and Toyota Center as well. Not sure about BBVA, but that is City-run, not County run. 

 

In any case (1) I’m sure the selection of a concessionaire is subject to County procurement rules; and (2) the point still stands. Blame HCSA or the Astros. If HCSA didn’t choose Aramark, or influence the Astros to choose Aramark, they created the lease that allowed the Astros to choose Aramark.

 

Of course this was all done 20 years ago, “best practice” at the time to deliver new stadia to Houston without burdening property owners through a tax levy. High priced concessions are only a part of it ... I’m pretty sure there’s a hotel tax and a car rental tax dedicated to the stadia which are (or used to be) among the highest in the country. I’m sure they wouldn’t do it the same way now. However, if the Astros re-upped through 2050, I’m sure they retained the favorable lease terms ... after all, why not?

 

I haven’t looked at it in a while but at one point the HCSA bonds that funded MMP, Reliant, and Toyota were junk bonds recently enough (i.e., within the past 5 years) because it was largely variable rate with swaps underwater dating back to the 2008 financial crisis. I’m confident they must have been refinanced since then because I’m sure we would have heard about it otherwise. 

 

Anyway, I’m not defending Aramark, I only go to MMP with any regularity and have been to plenty of away games. MMP is the worst, no doubt, with the exception of a couple concessions not run by Aramark (e.g., the St Arnold bar behind the Crawford Boxes). The stadium design doesn’t help, either, with very narrow circulation spaces (I assume because (ironically, in Houston) they had to fit it on those blocks, and those dimensions weren’t exactly spacious, which makes the stadium quite “dense). It’s infuriating to watch those concessions operate, they seem to have plenty of people but absolutely zero efficiencies. That’s why getting a hot dog on $1 hot dog night takes two full innings, with the line stalled for a full half inning because they’ve “run out,” and most people just give up.

 

Since the Astros have a direct financial incentive in improving such flurfty service, blame them (or HCSA). Don’t waste your time complaining about Aramark.

[mattyt36]

In rereading the above I left an open quotation and seem to have invented a new word ... “flurfty” (covfefe?) ... I’m not sure what I was even going for there, but I’ll let it stand  because it does seem an appropriate adjective for Aramark. 

[Angostura]

On 8/17/2019 at 2:39 AM, mattyt36 said:

 

Of course this was all done 20 years ago, “best practice” at the time to deliver new stadia to Houston without burdening property owners through a tax levy. High priced concessions are only a part of it ... I’m pretty sure there’s a hotel tax and a car rental tax dedicated to the stadia which are (or used to be) among the highest in the country. I’m sure they wouldn’t do it the same way now. However, if the Astros re-upped through 2050, I’m sure they retained the favorable lease terms ... after all, why not?

 

 

Basically, yes. HCSA built and owns the stadium, and leases it to the Astros, who retain substantially all revenue generated inside, including naming rights and non-baseball events. In return, they pay a few million dollars a year in rent (now $8.1M, with the lease extension). The team also pays for certain stadium improvements.

 

BTW, an annuity purchased with the $178M naming rights fee paid by Coca Cola would more than pay for the team's lease costs over the 28-year term of the naming rights deal.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Angostura