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Parrothead

Town & Country/City Centre *update*

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O.K. have it your way. Builders build the opposite of what people want. All those cars in the parking lot are just figments of my imagination. And the dilapidated abandoned buildings built up to the pedestrian friendly sidewalks of EADO are just filled to capacity with happy invisible shoppers.

Edited by Metro West

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Builders do not build what people want. They build whatever will earn them the most money. That's not always the same thing.

 

Exactly, and with Houston's anything goes no zoning or restrictions attitude it will continue. 

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O.K. have it your way. Builders build the opposite of what people want. All those cars in the parking lot are just figments of my imagination. And the dilapidated abandoned buildings built up to the pedestrian friendly sidewalks of EADO are just filled to capacity with happy invisible shoppers.

 

Excellent job of completely missing what I said.

 

Builders build what makes them the most profit, because that's the definition of capitalism. Generally they DO follow "what people want", or at least what some subset of people want, but they tend to take a very short term view of things.

 

Builders do not like risk, so if they've been doing something that's made them money in the past, then they're pretty likely to continue doing it until it stops making them money, regardless of what people "want". 

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A general contractor has yet to be named, but the other players are in place for a major new office project in the Energy Corridor, which is slated to break ground in the fall of 2015.

In a joint venture, Houston-based Midway Cos. and Chicago-based LaSalle Investment Management will develop 6.41 acres in CityCentre that will include 740,000 square feet of additional office space built to LEED Gold standards. The two new office towers will be located north of CityCentre Five, a 15-story project under constructionat 825 Town & Country Way. Both towers will be 16 stories with nine levels of parking, as well as a roof-top terrace on the fourth floor of both buildings.

Colvill Office Properties is marketing the space.

Munoz + Albin Architecture is the project architect, and Kirksey is the architect of record. Both are based in Houston. No financing was taken for the project, which will debt free. Colvill Office Properties is marketing the space.

“We have had tremendous success. Our current office products are almost 100 percent leased. We think the success is the prime location and the lifestyle they offer here at CityCentre, which has restaurants, hotels, conference space and retail. People want to live their day-to-day lives amongst great amenities,” said Shon Link, executive vice president of development for Midway Cos.

CityCentre Four became fully leased over the summer when Laredo Energy, a Houston-based natural gas company, signed on for the remaining 11,574 square feet of space in the building.

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/blog/breaking-ground/2014/09/more-details-revealed-on-major-citycentre-office.html?ana=twt

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Excellent job of completely missing what I said.

Builders build what makes them the most profit, because that's the definition of capitalism. Generally they DO follow "what people want", or at least what some subset of people want, but they tend to take a very short term view of things.

Builders do not like risk, so if they've been doing something that's made them money in the past, then they're pretty likely to continue doing it until it stops making them money, regardless of what people "want".

This doesn't make sense. If people don't want it, then it won't make money for the developer.

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Love this development, but would be surprised if it moves forward in current oil environment.

Ugh. Y'all make this condition sound so bad. 

Edited by Houston?

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Love this development, but would be surprised if it moves forward in current oil environment.

I'm so tired of comments like this popping up in every thread with a proposal. Everyone one knows the current oil market. We don't have to be reminded in every thread.

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Like others have said, not every current proposal will suffer, but office projects in the energy corridor are probably more vulnerable.

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I don't mean to bring up oil in every thread but Jonathan Brinsden did bring it up. I wonder how this will affect the expansion:

 

 

Nosediving oil prices will affect commercial developers more quickly than residential developers, said Jonathan Brinsden, CEO of Houston-based Midway Cos., which developed the CityCentre mixed-use project.

"The office side is where we're going to feel it first," Brinsden said. "There's a lot of sensitivities at $60 a barrel."

As energy companies scale back their budgets, they will likely consolidate their operations and look for smaller offices. Brinsden predicts a lot of renegotiated contracts as well as mergers and acquisitions as the middle energy market is squeezed.

In addition, office projects — both underway and proposed — may be mothballed if oil prices continue to plummet.

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news/2014/12/12/houston-developers-keep-wary-eye-on-falling-oil.html?page=2

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Hopefully it will forward with it's next hotel phase (a renovation of an existing hotel), if it hasn't already started. Otherwise, there are quite a few apartments under construction here. Pretty amazing how big this development has gotten. 

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Love this development, but would be surprised if it moves forward in current oil environment.

The current oil environment as of yesterday was $52 a barrel for WTI.

 

I think the real estate developers are way behind the power curve, compared to the developers of that Legacy complex in Plano. Seems to me a lot of their tenants could have been attracted to the Woodlands or the Energy Corridor (okay, they're insurance companies, but who knows?) 

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So Phase II is the beautification of the 4 Points? What is the big building in between Phase II & III? The Three smaller office buildings are going bye bye.

 

Edit: Does anyone know or presume that City Centre will eventually take over the retail centers, Mac Haik, and other smaller office buildings to eventually connect with the Memorial Hermann?

Edited by Montrose1100

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So Phase II is the beautification of the 4 Points? What is the big building in between Phase II & III? The Three smaller office buildings are going bye bye.

Edit: Does anyone know or presume that City Centre will eventually take over the retail centers, Mac Haik, and other smaller office buildings to eventually connect with the Memorial Hermann?

That is the Alexan City Centre which is under construction will be 7 stories.

I do believe they will expand further east as those properties become available. I remember reading in a article when they released the renderings for phase 3 that they are always actively looking for room for expansion.

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That is the Alexan City Centre which is under construction will be 7 stories.

I do believe they will expand further east as those properties become available. I remember reading in a article when they released the renderings for phase 3 that they are always actively looking for room for expansion.

 

Yaaaaaaaas! I love CityCentre! An expansion east would be something to write about. I would include some of the existing restaurants and retailers like Pappadeax, Pappasitos, and Bed Bath & Beyond from the current shopping centers in the newly expanded areas. I think having more popular mainstream stores and restaurants will give CityCentre even more life.

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City Centre is such a great success story that I can only hope is replicated many times over in Houston.

 

If I have one knock, it's that Bendwood Park is completely isolated from City Centre.

 

I guess it can be rectified in the future, but that would require Creme de la Creme to move and the elementary school to give up some of its land.

 

In addition, I imagine the neighborhood would resist this as it would effectively end their exclusive hold on the park.

 

The fact is, that patch of fake green space isn't enough to support the growth of this development for long.

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City Centre is such a great success story that I can only hope is replicated many times over in Houston.

 

If I have one knock, it's that Bendwood Park is completely isolated from City Centre.

 

I guess it can be rectified in the future, but that would require Creme de la Creme to move and the elementary school to give up some of its land.

 

In addition, I imagine the neighborhood would resist this as it would effectively end their exclusive hold on the park.

 

The fact is, that patch of fake green space isn't enough to support the growth of this development for long.

 

I live in the neighborhood and I've had similar thoughts about Bendwood's future. However, I believe the park will definitely remain isolated from the development, even if its use increases as the local population grows.

 

Bendwood Park is surrounded by expensive single family homes on three sides and Bendwood Elementary on the fourth. Creme de la Creme and Town & Country Village to City Centre's south are owned by another firm. Town & Country has already made the leap from retail-only to a mid-rise office building and could feasibly venture into residential. However, even they do not have land directly adjacent to Bendwood Park.

 

Development spurred by City Centre has plenty of room to expand to the south and east before intruding into the neighborhoods. I can even imagine City Center and Memorial City merging into a contiguous district along Katy Freeway before a single home in Fonn Villas is torn down by developers.

 

You are absolutely right, though. Midway needs another plot of green space. That patch of astroturf is so crowded on weekends!

Edited by The Ozone Files
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Two new tenants are moving in - Microsoft and Altus.

 

Oil prices have hit an interesting dichotomy; WTI is at $52 a barrel, while Brent is at $61. One of the trades said fracking is keeping US prices depressed relative to Europe.

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Wow that's going to be one hell of a development, considering it is already very nice. 

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Pluckers Wing Bar, an Austin-based chicken wing restaurant chain that got its start serving college students, will open its second Houston location in the first quarter of 2016. The new spot, at 10407 Katy Freeway, near the intersection of Interstate 10 and Attingham Drive, is currently occupied by a shuttered 59 Diner, which Pluckers owners will tear down to rebuild the new 7,800-square-foot restaurant.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/blog/retail/2015/04/pluckers-houston-expansion-continues.html

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The transition image from old to new was really cool.

 

Why can't someone buy four blocks that make up a square in downtown and replicate this exact same idea? Except, of course, it would truly be in an urban area and would have true connectivity and thru streets. It would be ten times better.

 

Too bad Houston Center was built in the car-centric days, Bayou Place was simply just a renovation job of an existing building and Green Street was just totally botched.

 

Thankfully, there are still enough blocks downtown to make something like this happen, and it would really help downtown take off even more, even without tax incentives. If the Houston Pavilions could attempt the basic concept less than a decade ago, surely someone else wants to try again but do it the right way.

 

Truthfully, Houston Pavilions attempted this in the infancy stage of downtown turnarounds, so I give them somewhat of a pass. But there's no excuse now. Everyone knows, without a doubt, urban living is in.

 

I'd love for two or three developers get together to make this happen.

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@lockmat I definitely understand your frustration. It's interesting that retailers like Zara, H&M, etc. either weren't courted or had no interest in Green Street, especially given that Forever 21 was one of the first tenants.  IMO a Zara seems like a 'no brainer' for attracting downtown office workers, much like Foley's/Macy's did in its heyday.

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unfortunately if Midway gets the Post Office site, that development won't be anything like what both you and I seek for downtown. it will be disconnected and basically be City Centre II.

where would you suggest it go? there aren't really any places downtown with 2x2 blocks ripe for redevelopment except north of the ballpark and west of the planned Camden towers. unless you incorporated an existing structure into a 3 block L. in that case you could build one around the northeast side of the ExxonMobil tower and tie that as the office component.

http://www.munozalbin.com/62-houston-post-office.html

Edited by cloud713

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unfortunately if Midway gets the Post Office site, that development won't be anything like what both you and I seek for downtown. it will be disconnected and basically be City Centre II.

where would you suggest it go? there aren't really any places downtown with 2x2 blocks ripe for redevelopment except north of the ballpark and west of the planned Camden towers. unless you incorporated an existing structure into a 3 block L. in that case you could build one around the northeast side of the ExxonMobil tower and tie that as the office component.

http://www.munozalbin.com/62-houston-post-office.html

 

I really like the idea of having it near the ballpark because there are 80 games there a year, spread out over six months of the year. One downside is it doesn't allow much more of downtown to feed off its synergy.

 

The Exxon area is a great I idea, especially because it's on the rail, close to two new residential developments and two blocks from Green Street. I would be down with that.

 

But the best place might be Caroline, Clay, La Branch and Dallas, near where you were talking about. It has three great neighbors on each side. 1) Discovery Green/Convention area, 2) Toyota Center, Root Square Park and nearby residential developments and 3) Green Street, even though not the best development on it's own could still contribute to an area greater than itself.

Edited by lockmat
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yeah i considered that place first but no way would South Texas School of Law give up their parking lot (they own the black top right?), and Randy is building his tower on part of the block north, so that only leaves 2 (and a half, if you build next to the Marlowe) blocks available. you could make another 3 block long GS-esque development going N/S along that corridor, going up next to the Four Seasons, but id rather see a development more clustered in a square like you said.

i think i like the L connected into Exxon the best, due to the light rail frontage and a (potential) tunnel connection among other things. wasn't the city was considering building a half block park north of the Savoy Holiday Inn at one point? if so there would be some green space next door too.

Edited by cloud713

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yeah i considered that place first but no way would South Texas School of Law give up their parking lot (they own the black top right?), and Randy is building his tower on part of the block north, so that only leaves 2 (and a half, if you build next to the Marlowe) blocks available. you could make another 3 block long GS-esque development going N/S along that corridor, going up next to the Four Seasons, but id rather see a development more clustered in a square like you said.

i think i like the L connected into Exxon the best, due to the light rail frontage and a (potential) tunnel connection among other things. wasn't the city was considering building a half block park north of the Savoy Holiday Inn at one point? if so there would be some green space next door too.

 

I didn't know about the law school parking lot, but someday I would think that the value of the lot would increase to the point they'd be foolish not to sell it. Or maybe they could work out a deal with the buyer to utilize their garage? That's a potentially small hurdle.

 

Marlowe is small enough that there's still plenty of room to develop around it and incorporate it into our master plan idea. Plus, it actually adds value to the project because it is there and adds some uniqueness to it.

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True, I just figured the school is holding onto that land for any sort of future expansion but I don't know their long term plans. Maybe build a residential tower on that block with a large garage (and of course retail facing into the development) for student housing and school parking options to appease any of the schools wishes/desires for the land. And having a college, along with students living on the property, as part of the development could add a unique vibe that CityCentre isn't able to recreate.

Yeah the Marlowe could be a neat component. Now I'm not sure which location I like better.

Sorry to drag this off topic. Scheming up new developments is a hobby of mine if yall haven't noticed by now. There should probably be an entire thread dedicated to my development fantasies.. Heh

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Another ULI case study, this time on CityCentre. At the end of the video, they say their only regret is that they didn't "go bigger". A lesson for Houston Pavillions and your next project!!! :

 

)

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