I-45 Rebuild (North Houston Highway Improvement Project)

[august948]

No you don't. As I and others have mentioned time and time again, when the pierce elevated was shut down for months, there was no predicted traffic armageddon.

 

The pierce elevated is traffic armageddon almost every day and has been for years.

 

Here's an analysis of why it backs up.

 

http://keephoustonhouston.wordpress.com/2012/09/11/why-the-pierce-elevated-backs-up/

 

From the article linked above talking about how many lanes dump into the downtown area...

 

"That’s twenty-two lanes total. How many lanes are available downtown? The Pierce Elevated has six. And a cross-section of 59 at the GRB has eight. Add ‘em up and you get fourteen. 22 into 14. 11/7. This is why the Pierce comes to a standstill."

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2013 by august948

[Slick Vik]

Don't give me that. When talking about the vast amount that Pierce moves (not to mention it being part of the Interstate highway system), you basically wrote that off as "they'll find alternate routes". ("I'm demolishing 300 acres of residential areas for my theme park resort. It's okay, they'll find other places to live!")

 

That was a hyperbole, and if I insulted you, I'm sorry. My point was demolishing the Pierce to make a walkable paradise is a fantasy...and that's okay. I don't fault you for having an imagination.

Meanwhile, on Midtown: I've both driven through and ridden the light rail on it. It's rather run-down, and what isn't run-down is pretty ugly (mid-rise townhomes!)

And there you go. You can easily make a walkable neighborhood just by adding a cluster of bars and nightclubs.

 

1. It moves it because it's there. If it wasn't, what it moves would find other avenues to move. They will find alternatives, humans adapt.

 

2. No offense taken. I don't know if it would make it a walkable paradise, but I think that area could be used for more residential and parks, personally.

 

3. Much of midtown is run down, but parts of it are quite nice, especially Bagby between McGowen and Pierce. This has effects on brazos in the same area.

The pierce elevated is traffic armageddon almost every day and has been for years.

 

Here's an analysis of why it backs up.

 

http://keephoustonhouston.wordpress.com/2012/09/11/why-the-pierce-elevated-backs-up/

 

From the article linked above talking about how many lanes dump into the downtown area...

 

"That’s twenty-two lanes total. How many lanes are available downtown? The Pierce Elevated has six. And a cross-section of 59 at the GRB has eight. Add ‘em up and you get fourteen. 22 into 14. 11/7. This is why the Pierce comes to a standstill."

 

When the pierce elevated was shut down for reconstruction, the traffic didn't get noticeably worse. That was my point.

[august948]

They do gather because of walkability, many places in one area, so you can go to 4-5 places in a night via your feet instead of one.

 

It's not the walkability that's the attraction.  Memorial Park is a nice place to walk but you don't see crowds there on Friday nights.

 

[august948]

 

When the pierce elevated was shut down for reconstruction, the traffic didn't get noticeably worse. That was my point.

 

When was that, exactly, and were you commuting into downtown at the time?

 

[IronTiger]

It moves it because it's there. If it wasn't, what it moves would find other avenues to move. They will find alternatives, humans adapt.

So...you agree with my eviction analogy?

When was that, exactly, and were you commuting into downtown at the time?

I think I read somewhere it was '97. I know I wasn't driving, or even totally aware of my surroundings at the time.

When the pierce elevated was shut down for reconstruction, the traffic didn't get noticeably worse. That was my point.

No, I think you're missing the point. Let's say, for a minute, that there as many lanes in downtown that feed into it, and that would be 22. The magic number is 1. Anything less than one means traffic gets better, anything more means a backup as people try to get into less lanes that are available. The current ratio of 11/7 is 1.57. Take away 6, and the ratio goes to 22/8, a ratio of 2.75.

And besides, in term of construction, my "broken leg" analogy went unnoticed by you even though it's a good one.

bayous divide neighborhoods and could be considered a barrier.

Therefore, we should bury them in concrete culverts or backfill them.

I think you're missing my point.

No, I think I made my point exactly. Do I think the bayous are a barrier and they should be filled in? Of course not. Do they divide neighborhoods? Yes they do. There are bridges and other ways of passage along the bayous. There are sidewalks and other ways of passage under the Pierce Elevated.

Besides, the creation of the highways is what gave Midtown an identity in the first place.

[Slick Vik]

So...you agree with my eviction analogy?

I think I read somewhere it was '97. I know I wasn't driving, or even totally aware of my surroundings at the time.

No, I think you're missing the point. Let's say, for a minute, that there as many lanes in downtown that feed into it, and that would be 22. The magic number is 1. Anything less than one means traffic gets better, anything more means a backup as people try to get into less lanes that are available. The current ratio of 11/7 is 1.57. Take away 6, and the ratio goes to 22/8, a ratio of 2.75.

And besides, in term of construction, my "broken leg" analogy went unnoticed by you even though it's a good one.

No, I think I made my point exactly. Do I think the bayous are a barrier and they should be filled in? Of course not. Do they divide neighborhoods? Yes they do. There are bridges and other ways of passage along the bayous. There are sidewalks and other ways of passage under the Pierce Elevated.

Besides, the creation of the highways is what gave Midtown an identity in the first place.

 

1. No. People don't live on freeways.

 

2. I wasn't driving, but I was aware of the reconstruction, and it made no difference when my family would cross downtown to go other places. Would just take 59 instead to 10, or 610.

 

3. I'm not missing any point. The traffic was not significantly worse during pierce reconstruction. That is a fact.

 

4. Your broken leg analogy is misplaced here. The traffic adjusted immediately, and would have stayed that way if the Pierce never came back.

 

5. Bayous aren't man made, there's a big difference there.

[Slick Vik]

When was that, exactly, and were you commuting into downtown at the time?

 

 

1997, and no. But I was well aware of what was happening.

[IronTiger]

1. No. People don't live on freeways.

You're missing the point. The idea was the arrogant/ignorant way of not caring where anything went when a project was done.

2. I wasn't driving, but I was aware of the reconstruction, and it made no difference when my family would cross downtown to go other places. Would just take 59 instead to 10, or 610.

(also see 3, 4)

Heavy traffic makes a huge difference whether you're driving or not. Now, I can't say that I've driven on the area in 1997, but at least I know my limits.

5. Bayous aren't man made, there's a big difference there.

Leaving the fact that the bayous as today were significantly modified from their original forms, the bayous are an example of a boundary. A better example would be railroads, as they ALWAYS get a pass from freeway removal activists (hereafter referred to as FRAs). There used to be a post on Keep Houston Houston about how FRAs despised the freeway, decrying it as a barrier, blah blah blah, and ignoring the railroad viaduct that served to divide neighborhoods ever more than the freeways did. Frankly, the "not man-made" argument is a cop-out. So, where did all those walkable mid-rises come from? Did they slowly evolve over millions of years?

Like I said before, the very definition of Midtown was made because of those freeways. Should Midtown and Downtown be an amorphous, indistinguishable blob?

[Slick Vik]

You're missing the point. The idea was the arrogant/ignorant way of not caring where anything went when a project was done.

Heavy traffic makes a huge difference whether you're driving or not. Now, I can't say that I've driven on the area in 1997, but at least I know my limits.

Leaving the fact that the bayous as today were significantly modified from their original forms, the bayous are an example of a boundary. A better example would be railroads, as they ALWAYS get a pass from freeway removal activists (hereafter referred to as FRAs). There used to be a post on Keep Houston Houston about how FRAs despised the freeway, decrying it as a barrier, blah blah blah, and ignoring the railroad viaduct that served to divide neighborhoods ever more than the freeways did. Frankly, the "not man-made" argument is a cop-out. So, where did all those walkable mid-rises come from? Did they slowly evolve over millions of years?

Like I said before, the very definition of Midtown was made because of those freeways. Should Midtown and Downtown be an amorphous, indistinguishable blob?

 

Are you stating a railroad viaduct is as wide as a 6 lane freeway? Yes, I wouldn't mind Midtown and Downtown be a merged blob.

[cloud713]

Are you stating a railroad viaduct is as wide as a 6 lane freeway? Yes, I wouldn't mind Midtown and Downtown be a merged blob.

i wouldnt mind downtown and midtown being seamlessly connected either. in fact, id prefer it. hopefully that is what will happen when TXDot makes up their minds about how to reroute traffic around downtown (assuming they go with the rerouting 45 along 59 and 10 idea) and turn pierce elevated into a much narrower, ground level blvd. (would that scenario be to just widen Pierce Street where it is now, not having the blvd following under the old 45 path? if so that would allow for development along the half block lots that will be left over when pierce elevated is gone)

[ig2ba]

Much of this discussion is now even more theoretical than it was before. TxDOT has narrowed the 12 alternatives to 3. Only one of the alternatives involves removing the Pierce Elevated. To me, this alternative looks worse than all the others for:

• Drivers on freeways - Removal of 6 freeway lanes for an already lane-imbalanced downtown freeway system
• EaDo residents - U.S. 59 would be significantly widened, about 600 feet wide near Jefferson, and at least 300 feet wide everywhere else. To people who refuse to walk under elevated thingies, this would clearly be bad. At any rate, it makes the barrier larger between Downtown and a growing area.
• EaDo business owners - several businesses will be destroyed through eminent domain including one of the last remnants of the old Chinatown - Kim Son. The project alternative of adding 1 more lane (each way) to the Pierce Elevated requires no demolition of businesses or residences.
• Drivers driving between Midtown and Downtown - It appears that they would close down a few of the north streets. Not sure which ones yet, but maybe Travis/Milam and east of San Jacinto. It would disrupt the grid system - which is important in every major city to distribute traffic of all modes.
• Pedestrians between Midtown and Downtown - Instead of a 5 lane street to traverse, the 'Pierce Parkway' that will replace I-45 is 10 lanes, and the average speed of cars there would likely be higher than on other downtown streets. I frequently walk throughout downtown and under the Pierce either day or night. The one-way 5 lane streets are not intimidating to me, but I have to say that the thought of crossing a South Main street or a 10 lane Memorial Drive might just convince me to go elsewhere for lunch. It certainly would be more of a barrier than the current Pierce Street.
• Bicyclists between Midtown and Downtown - Because of the street closures (see above), bicyclists would have to use busier streets, busier than even now, since motorists have been redirected to these streets. Currently, it is a much easier and safer bike ride from Downtown to the Museum District using a street like LaBranch instead of Fannin. Not only would bikers lose the ability to use some of the quieter North-South streets, they'd have to cross a 10-lane high speed Pierce Parkway instead of the current 5-lane 30 mph road.

[ig2ba]

i wouldnt mind downtown and midtown being seamlessly connected either. in fact, id prefer it. hopefully that is what will happen when TXDot makes up their minds about how to reroute traffic around downtown (assuming they go with the rerouting 45 along 59 and 10 idea) and turn pierce elevated into a much narrower, ground level blvd. (would that scenario be to just widen Pierce Street where it is now, not having the blvd following under the old 45 path? if so that would allow for development along the half block lots that will be left over when pierce elevated is gone)

 

Where it matters to pedestrians - you know, at ground level - the parkway along Pierce would be 10 lanes instead of the current 5 lane Pierce Street. So wider, not narrower.

 

This is according to TxDOT's latest drawings.

[cloud713]

Where it matters to pedestrians - you know, at ground level - the parkway along Pierce would be 10 lanes instead of the current 5 lane Pierce Street. So wider, not narrower.

 

This is according to TxDOT's latest drawings.

intereesting, the last proposals i saw showed a 6 lane parkway for Pierce Street, and the stretch of 59 past GRB being tunneled, at least through Commerce Street. do you have a link to the new proposals?

[IronTiger]

Part of the problem, I think is the the fact that the Pierce Elevated has too much traffic. The traffic, especially in rush times, undoubtedly causes more noise and traffic. My solution is to keep the Pierce Elevated but remove the traffic. Basically, in tamdem with actually building out TX-35 (Spur 5) to its full potential, is to extend it over Interstate 45 and up to the US-59 interchange, abandoning and replacing the railroad ROW east of EaDo. There will be new ramps connecting Interstate 45 to the highway (where 45 and 10 exit the part where they run parallel to each other). Signage directs through traffic to take the new 35 ramps and bypass downtown entirely. You'll still use the Pierce Elevated to access Allen Pkwy. and 288.

[Slick Vik]

Where it matters to pedestrians - you know, at ground level - the parkway along Pierce would be 10 lanes instead of the current 5 lane Pierce Street. So wider, not narrower.

This is according to TxDOT's latest drawings.

If you are given enough time to cross I don't think it's that big of an issue.

[Houston19514]

intereesting, the last proposals i saw showed a 6 lane parkway for Pierce Street, and the stretch of 59 past GRB being tunneled, at least through Commerce Street. do you have a link to the new proposals?

 

http://www.ih45northandmore.com/scoping_documents3.aspx

[Subdude]

It kind of ticks me off that they decided that tunneling wasn't feasible.  I was just reading an article about a number of large tunnel projects, including London's Crossrail and another in Seattle.  if other cities can manage the engineering challenges, why can't Houston?

 

Here is the wiki article on the Seattle project to replace an elevated viaduct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaskan_Way_Viaduct_replacement_tunnel

 

 

 

 

[Houston19514]

^  Could the $4.25 BILLION price tag for a two-mile-long tunnel with only 4 lanes (2 in each direction; we need at least double that capacity) perhaps be part of the reasoning?

Edited December 3, 2013 by Houston19514

[IronTiger]

I still hold to my "Highway 35" extension idea. If executed correctly (it should be sunken, but not tunneled), it could dramatically not only take congested traffic off of the Pierce but also the downtown highways altogether. 

[august948]

I still hold to my "Highway 35" extension idea. If executed correctly (it should be sunken, but not tunneled), it could dramatically not only take congested traffic off of the Pierce but also the downtown highways altogether. 

 

A sunken 45 would be more fun after a tropical storm, too. 

 

 

[Houston19514]

I still hold to my "Highway 35" extension idea. If executed correctly (it should be sunken, but not tunneled), it could dramatically not only take congested traffic off of the Pierce but also the downtown highways altogether. 

 

How do you propose to deal with the trains that use the railroad tracks you are proposing to abandon?

[arche_757]

A sunken 45 would be more fun after a tropical storm, too. 

 

 

Better a freeway than a neighborhood.

 

[august948]

Better a freeway than a neighborhood.

 

 

No doubt.  And, as I understand it, the sunken section of 59 was designed to serve just that purpose in the event of a major rain event.  I wonder if Pierce was elevated in part for the opposite reason, i.e. to keep a major artery high and dry in the case of a major flood.

 

[ArchFan]

Actually, it seems to me like it might be a sensible idea to have sunken roadways serve as emergency detention ponds.  At least, if we aren't willing to think ahead and pony up for better flood-mitigation measures.  

 

But ... I still wish we would take intelligent measures to keep our business districts, medical facilities, libraries, etc., from taking irrevocable damage every time we have a major flooding event.  Having people drown in underground parking garages downtown, Texas Medical Center facilities in the dark, and rare books at Rice U being destroyed is not good for our image nor for our future prosperity.

[Houston19514]

Actually, it seems to me like it might be a sensible idea to have sunken roadways serve as emergency detention ponds.  At least, if we aren't willing to think ahead and pony up for better flood-mitigation measures.  

 

But ... I still wish we would take intelligent measures to keep our business districts, medical facilities, libraries, etc., from taking irrevocable damage every time we have a major flooding event.  Having people drown in underground parking garages downtown, Texas Medical Center facilities in the dark, and rare books at Rice U being destroyed is not good for our image nor for our future prosperity.

 

Are you actually unaware of all of such measures that have been taken since Allison and continue to be taken?

[ig2ba]

intereesting, the last proposals i saw showed a 6 lane parkway for Pierce Street, and the stretch of 59 past GRB being tunneled, at least through Commerce Street. do you have a link to the new proposals?

 

Sorry, I don't. I saw these at the November 19th meeting held by TxDOT. The 5 lanes each way did not appear to be turn lanes. But who really knows until the design is finalized and ready for construction.

 

I was commenting on a 10 lane configuration of the parkway, but in my mind, a 6-lane parkway would still be less pedestrian friendly than the current state, though not as bad as a ten-laner.

[Slick Vik]

Sorry, I don't. I saw these at the November 19th meeting held by TxDOT. The 5 lanes each way did not appear to be turn lanes. But who really knows until the design is finalized and ready for construction.

 

I was commenting on a 10 lane configuration of the parkway, but in my mind, a 6-lane parkway would still be less pedestrian friendly than the current state, though not as bad as a ten-laner.

 

I think a parkway would be better because the bridge would be gone.

[ig2ba]

Part of the problem, I think is the the fact that the Pierce Elevated has too much traffic. The traffic, especially in rush times, undoubtedly causes more noise and traffic. My solution is to keep the Pierce Elevated but remove the traffic. Basically, in tamdem with actually building out TX-35 (Spur 5) to its full potential, is to extend it over Interstate 45 and up to the US-59 interchange, abandoning and replacing the railroad ROW east of EaDo. There will be new ramps connecting Interstate 45 to the highway (where 45 and 10 exit the part where they run parallel to each other). Signage directs through traffic to take the new 35 ramps and bypass downtown entirely. You'll still use the Pierce Elevated to access Allen Pkwy. and 288.

 

Putting aside the costs of building an entirely new (elevated?) freeway in the city core, this plan assumes that the railroad ROW would be easy to obtain. I can attest that this is a heavily used rail corridor, and without adequate rail infrastructure in place near burgeoning West Texas, Eagle Ford, and North Dakota oil fields, and with the upcoming Panama Canal expansion, it is very likely to see even more freight rail traffic in the future.

 

That and the ROW is about 90 feet wide for half of this segment. That would get you a 2x2 freeway, like Westpark.

 

Not that I wouldn't want to see a traffic simulation for your proposal, but it's far cheaper to use existing ROW or just widen it slightly than to acquire an entirely new area.

[ig2ba]

If you are given enough time to cross I don't think it's that big of an issue.

 

40 seconds at each crosswalk? I don't know of anything that could be called a parkway which regularly stops traffic for 40-45 seconds.

 

Please let us know if you have such an example.

[Slick Vik]

40 seconds at each crosswalk? I don't know of anything that could be called a parkway which regularly stops traffic for 40-45 seconds.

 

Please let us know if you have such an example.

 

Allen Parkway has a light at Taft. Also Memorial eventually has a lot of lights once you pass Waugh westward.