I-45 Rebuild (North Houston Highway Improvement Project)

[Luminare]

16 minutes ago, mollusk said:

Public transportation (as differentiated from highways) was added to the department's responsibility in the 70s, when it merged with the Department of Public Transportation.  So yes, we ought to be able to look to TxDOT for things other than adding more and more motor vehicle lanes.

 

It's just pretty much ignored public transportation options all that time, so we can't, even though we're paying for it.

 

I agree with you. This is something that has to be pushed in the meantime. A long term alternative plan has to be assembled as a master plan for mass transit, submitted to the city, and then the city can actually ask TXDOT to assist in developing it.

 

Right now thats not the answer for this particular project. The "opposition" has had years upon years to develop something that they would like to see throughout the city (mass transit), and year after year nothing has been submitted to the city to try an alternative. Instead, the "opposition" only arises and cares about this issue when a project is underway and that isn't enough. All of this is the wrong time and the wrong place.

 

I don't even think the opposition really even wants to get anything done period. They simply just want to be the "opposition". They want to be a "victim". If they wanted to not be that they could actually produce something or be productive. They aren't even opposed to this because they have some grand scheme that they have in hand. Instead they are only opposed to this out of orthodoxy and because it goes against their worldview. Thats not enough to make change happen. I don't see a difference in this opposition than I would with Christians in their orthodoxy being opposed to Heavy Metal music. Its not because they have an alternative, but because its motivated by orthodoxy or a threat to that orthodoxy. They truly see this project as a kind of "devil". None of this then or now produces a productive conversation, argument or debate where things can actually matter or make a difference.

 

Making a real change requires clear planning and a proper organization that then floats up to the top so something can actually happening. Not praying that an alternative will just magically manifest itself.

 

EDIT: Basically. The opposition, with how they are proceeding is just going to piss a lot of people off who could be persuaded to their cause if they actually had a real plan and real solution to back. One of those people is me. I would love to support a grand alternative to build from, but they only seem concerned with protesting and being activist rather than being planners and builders of what they desire. Thats not enough, and its not going to be enough for many to support.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Luminare

[Triton]

I've said this many times before but I-10 has to be the most poorly designed freeway Houston ever built.

 

It added THAT many lanes and it's still a mess. The worst mistake it made was forcing those tollroad commuters, which I am that commuter everyday, to cross every single damn lane from the right to the left just to use the damn tollway. You see how much this backs up traffic all the time at Gessner and Beltway 8 going into the city.... the back up in that area is always due to people like me having to make so many lane switches and honestly cut so many people off just to make the tollroad. They should have somehow elevated the tollway in those areas and had some sort of direct connectors to the tollroads. With all the criticism this I-45 expansion gets, I am so glad they learned from this huge mistake, especially at the future I-45/610 interchange with direct connectors to and from the ramps:

 

 

 

 

[Ross]

9 hours ago, samagon said:

 

how do you figure that? the commute times for i-10 dropped for a while after the freeway opened, but have stabilized at similar levels as they were prior to the expansion.

 

I'll agree that once you are on a park and ride bus, the actual transit times certainly stayed low, but the problem now (from a friend that uses P&R) is waiting to get on a bus. so it's still a capacity issue that you can only get out of by changing to a form of transit that allows for a higher density.

The commute times may be similar to what they were, but the number of commuters is much larger.

 

The P&R capacity issue can be solved with more buses, which are much cheaper than a train. And, there's an added benefit that the lanes the buses use can be used by other folks at other times. Unlike rail, where nothing else can use the tracks.

[Nate99]

I'm beginning to believe that density and/or sprawl will replace any commute time advantage fairly quickly. Commuting in a big city is a law of large numbers kind of thing, and there is most definitely a cost component to the time spent, so when a new alternative pops up, things equilibriate around the other alternatives and it takes us all an hour to get home. 

[mollusk]

On 6/26/2019 at 11:24 AM, Luminare said:

The "opposition" has had years upon years to develop something that they would like to see throughout the city (mass transit), and year after year nothing has been submitted to the city to try an alternative. Instead, the "opposition" only arises and cares about this issue when a project is underway and that isn't enough. All of this is the wrong time and the wrong place.

 

I'm pulling the age card here.  Back in the early 70s - about when the public transit and highway departments merged - various other new build heavy rail systems were in various stages of development - BART, MARTA, and the Washington Metro come to mind.  Here, we had an effort to form Houston Area Rapid Transit (HART) that almost got voter approval, but didn't quite.  The developer community was united in opposition, since they'd already bought large tracts of rice fields and farm lands along the routes of the then proposed Beltway 8 and Highway 99.

 

METRO ended up coming into being a half a dozen years later.  It put together alternatives.  Its monorail proposal was derided as something out of Disneyland (as if Disney doesn't want to turn a buck while moving a bunch of people around).  That's about the time that MayorBob (previously chair of the highway commission) took over, and strangled that plan in its crib.  Instead, he looted METRO to fund street projects.

 

And let's not forget the bomb throwing by DeLay and Culberson, including hijacking the University Line and building the Katy Freeway over an existing railroad right of way.

 

So the opposition has submitted plans - they've just had some pretty powerful opponents.

[Urbannizer]

I came across this pic of townhomes(?) from 1962. They were knocked down for the pierce elevated.

 

Here's the location today.

 

 

[zaphod]

Quote

I don't even think the opposition really even wants to get anything done period. They simply just want to be the "opposition". They want to be a "victim". If they wanted to not be that they could actually produce something or be productive. They aren't even opposed to this because they have some grand scheme that they have in hand. Instead they are only opposed to this out of orthodoxy and because it goes against their worldview. Thats not enough to make change happen. I don't see a difference in this opposition than I would with Christians in their orthodoxy being opposed to Heavy Metal music. Its not because they have an alternative, but because its motivated by orthodoxy or a threat to that orthodoxy. They truly see this project as a kind of "devil". None of this then or now produces a productive conversation, argument or debate where things can actually matter or make a difference.

 

The opposition has a bigger picture in mind.

 

Expanding freeways induces sprawl outward in certain directions at the expense of others while leapfrogging areas of the city where there is a lot of vacant or underutilized land. Houston has a lot of room to grow to the northeast. It has big empty areas all over the place, including inside the Beltway.

 

There are other highways that don't get a lot of traffic. There are other highways which could facilitate growth elsewhere, like a toll road to Alvin. Big picture, my friend. The Houston metro is growing. The Houston metro is a big place.

 

Infinitely expanding the already overcrowded highways in the parts of the city that already sprawl out to the limits of what normal people are willing to commute is the highest cost lowest return option there is.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2019 by zaphod

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, zaphod said:

 

The opposition has a bigger picture in mind.

 

Expanding freeways induces sprawl outward in certain directions at the expense of others while leapfrogging areas of the city where there is a lot of vacant or underutilized land. Houston has a lot of room to grow to the northeast. It has big empty areas all over the place, including inside the Beltway.

 

There are other highways that don't get a lot of traffic. There are other highways which could facilitate growth elsewhere, like a toll road to Alvin. Big picture, my friend. The Houston metro is growing. The Houston metro is a big place.

 

Infinitely expanding the already overcrowded highways in the parts of the city that already sprawl out to the limits of what normal people are willing to commute is the highest cost lowest return option there is.

 

 

 

I don't think you can flatly say that this expansion necessarily induces sprawl outward.  It is at least as likely (and I think more likely) that this project will reduce sprawl. If access to downtown continues to be more and more restricted by congestion, its growth will be choked off. There are already a huge number of people and companies who have zero interest in locating downtown or anywhere inside the loop, because of the congestion (or perceived congestion).

[BeerNut]

Houston leaders asked to commit $100M to massive I-45 rebuild

 

Quote

To demonstrate local support for the mega-project, the Texas Department of Transportation is asking the Houston-Galveston Area Council’s Transportation Policy Council, the committee that doles out state and federal money controlled by local officials, to commit $100 million to the central 3-mile portion of the freeway rebuild, from Interstate 10 to Loop 610. State officials would cover the remainder of the $1.22 billion cost, or around 91 percent of the total.

 

[CaptainJilliams]

3 hours ago, BeerNut said:

Houston leaders asked to commit $100M to massive I-45 rebuild

 

 

 

So they would be committing money towards the portion where the proposed highway caps would connect midtown to the museum district as well as where the big cap would connect EaDo to Downtown correct? (If, of course, they agree to commit $100M)

Edited July 9, 2019 by CaptainJilliams

[samagon]

14 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

 

I don't think you can flatly say that this expansion necessarily induces sprawl outward.  It is at least as likely (and I think more likely) that this project will reduce sprawl. If access to downtown continues to be more and more restricted by congestion, its growth will be choked off. There are already a huge number of people and companies who have zero interest in locating downtown or anywhere inside the loop, because of the congestion (or perceived congestion).

 

is this a joke?

[Ross]

16 hours ago, zaphod said:

 

The opposition has a bigger picture in mind.

 

Expanding freeways induces sprawl outward in certain directions at the expense of others while leapfrogging areas of the city where there is a lot of vacant or underutilized land. Houston has a lot of room to grow to the northeast. It has big empty areas all over the place, including inside the Beltway.

 

There are other highways that don't get a lot of traffic. There are other highways which could facilitate growth elsewhere, like a toll road to Alvin. Big picture, my friend. The Houston metro is growing. The Houston metro is a big place.

 

Infinitely expanding the already overcrowded highways in the parts of the city that already sprawl out to the limits of what normal people are willing to commute is the highest cost lowest return option there is.

 

 

Where, exactly, are these big empty areas? Keep in mind that much of the empty areas to the Northeast are flood plains, and some of the other open areas are active oil/gas fields.

 

This project expands 45 from downtown to BW8. I doubt that will encourage sprawl, since the route is through pretty well developed areas.

[X.R.]

3 hours ago, CaptainJilliams said:

 

So they would be committing money towards the portion where the proposed highway caps would connect midtown to the museum district as well as where the big cap would connect EaDo to Downtown correct? (If, of course, they agree to commit $100M)

 

" to commit $100 million to the central 3-mile portion of the freeway rebuild, from Interstate 10 to Loop 610. " 

 

I don't think so? I think its just putting the downpayment on the total package. I don't think we'll get a feel for what the average Houstonian wants until the TV ads and stuff starts to make appearances en-masse. Most of my friends are like "what are you talking about" when I asked them about this, and some of those guys are cops (for the city). So theres that. 

[BeerNut]

Regional Policy Entity Should Delay Vote on $100 Million for I-45 Expansion

Quote

This funding would signal the region’s support for the project as currently designed, despite significant community concerns that widening the highway poses a serious threat to neighborhood history and heritage, greenspace, flooding, housing, jobs, air quality, and the environment. According to TxDOT’s Draft Environmental Impact Statement, the project would lead to disproportionate and adverse impacts to low-income and minority communities, displacing 168 single family homes; 1,067 multi-family homes (including 368 low-income units and 60 homeless veterans’ units); and 331 businesses that employ 24,873 people.

 

[Nate99]

Everything has a tradeoff, ultimately the least politically connected are going to have their particular interests overruled.  Low income communities are kind of by definition the "easiest" to replace and so the people there get pushed around. As long as there are no takings without compensation, I think this is really the best we can do.  If you're a renter, your living situation is totally governed by your lease.

 

Supposing opponents are successful and get the project shut down. A plausible scenario would then shift value away from would-have-been more accessible "sprawled" communities to closer in "lower income and minority" communities. Rather than pay with time, people will pay with perceived neighborhood quality and start gentrifying. At the end of the day, people that do not own the property get priced out anyway, absent rent control and the shortages and other distortions they create.  

 

Money doesn't buy happiness, but it certainly gives you more options. 

[zaphod]

The big empty areas I am referring to:

 

NE: The area around Generation Park and Lake Houston Pkwy

E: Huffman. How much would it cost vs. other options to expand the Crosby Fwy instead

SW: The Missouri City antenna fields along Fort Bend Tollway

S: Manvel, which is closer to downtown than Katy. Once Pearland builds out it is next in like down 288.

SE: Alvin, if TXDOT built an SH 35 Tollway

 

This is more sprawl, but it's no worse than building pushing the suburban edge to touch Brookshire and Waller next.

 

All of these things are less than 25 miles from Downtown, which is approximately the distance from Katy to the city center.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2019 by zaphod

[RoadMan76]

I have now updated the maps on segments 1 & 2 of the project and they are going to be used as comment on the project to give them more ideas on how to improve the design on the present planned lane configuration, because past flaws are being repeated unfortunately.

 

Almost everyone isn’t aware of this, but ~85% of our freeways contain flawed lane configuration, including this project.

Because design flaws continue to be introduced into new lane configurations, the traffic slowdowns soon follow. 

 

The only 2 perfectly designed freeways as of right now is:

US 290 westbound from I-610 to Brittmore Rd and

I-45 Gulf northbound from Nasa Rd bypass to Beltway 8. 

Those 2 freeways have completely eliminated traffic backups as a result since their completions, and if the template used is implemented into other Houston area freeways, the traffic problem shall be tamed for good. Several other freeways approach that perfection (Katy freeway) although those are not completely free of flaws.

 

But once again, almost everyone isn’t aware of this.

 

 Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks.

I-610_NHHIP_Segment_2_Interchange_Project_Critique_2019.pdf I-45_NHHIP_Segments_1_&_2_Project_Critique_2019.pdf

I-610_NHHIP_Segment__2_Interchange_Project_Critique_2019pdf.pdf

Edited July 12, 2019 by RoadMan76

[Nate99]

12 hours ago, zaphod said:

The big empty areas I am referring to:

 

NE: The area around Generation Park and Lake Houston Pkwy

E: Huffman. How much would it cost vs. other options to expand the Crosby Fwy instead

SW: The Missouri City antenna fields along Fort Bend Tollway

S: Manvel, which is closer to downtown than Katy. Once Pearland builds out it is next in like down 288.

SE: Alvin, if TXDOT built an SH 35 Tollway

 

This is more sprawl, but it's no worse than building pushing the suburban edge to touch Brookshire and Waller next.

 

All of these things are less than 25 miles from Downtown, which is approximately the distance from Katy to the city center.

 

 

 

I started to type up a response about how none of these were practical given the current state of surrounding communities (poor, quasi-rural/industrial), but you mentioned Pearland. I grew up in Friendswood in the 80's, and, snobby as it may have been, Pearland was considered ugly, trashy and low-rent.  Alvin was close to the same, but more rural.  Sheldon/Huffman are like that now, likewise Huffman/Crosby/Highlands.  With better access, those areas would grow like crazy if the economy supports it.  They're also unincorporated and can get trucked by developers with more political clout!

[Ross]

15 hours ago, zaphod said:

The big empty areas I am referring to:

 

NE: The area around Generation Park and Lake Houston Pkwy

E: Huffman. How much would it cost vs. other options to expand the Crosby Fwy instead

SW: The Missouri City antenna fields along Fort Bend Tollway

S: Manvel, which is closer to downtown than Katy. Once Pearland builds out it is next in like down 288.

SE: Alvin, if TXDOT built an SH 35 Tollway

 

This is more sprawl, but it's no worse than building pushing the suburban edge to touch Brookshire and Waller next.

 

All of these things are less than 25 miles from Downtown, which is approximately the distance from Katy to the city center.

 

 

NE: Notice that the other side of the power lines from Generationa Park are the Greens Bayou Wetlands Mitigation Bank, so can't be developed. That probably applies to all of that open space along Greens Bayou

E: Huffman area is between the San Jacinto and Trinity rivers, and subject to flooding

SW:The antenna fields aren't going anywhere, and are on top of a salt dome with an adjacent oil field

The Manvel and Alvin areas are slowly developing, but it will take time. Plus, they are a long way outside the Beltway.

[BeerNut]

A new vision for I-45. And for Houston.

Houston Chronicle opinion piece.

[samagon]

6 hours ago, BeerNut said:

A new vision for I-45. And for Houston.

Houston Chronicle opinion piece.

 

outlines pretty well the problems too.

[Nate99]

On 7/13/2019 at 6:18 PM, samagon said:

 

outlines pretty well the problems too.

 

It only outlines the problems and ignores the cost and feasibility of the supposed alternatives that are wide ranging and intrusive.  All are valid approaches and ideas that should be discussed politically, but METRO and TxDOT are both fairly famous for avoiding political accountability. People care about bathroom bills way more than who is greasing who's palm for what benefit.

 

Using transit to sporting events as a supposed upside for the reader to imagine ignores the light rail rodeo experience most of us try to avoid, even before you compare it to the absurdity of paying $40 to park for an Astros' game. No one does that apart from the diamond club folks that wouldn't be caught dead on public transit, unless they need it for their campaign photo op.

 

Paying $15 to park and then wait a half hour for a packed rail car sounds fairly competitive to $40 now that I think about it. 

 

 

[H-Town Man]

Is there any actual chance of the opposition stopping this? Where in the process is such a chance most likely to be? This is reminding me of the opposition to widening the Katy Freeway back in the early 2000's. Some e-mail groups, some visionary op-eds in the Chronicle, some quotes from experts saying that widening freeways never has worked or will work, and... nothing. The widening took place.

 

I do think there was a successful opposition that stopped the widening of the West Loop to 24 lanes in the early 90's, but that was before my time.

 

Edited July 16, 2019 by H-Town Man

[Avossos]

23 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

Is there any actual chance of the opposition stopping this? Where in the process is such a chance most likely to be? This is reminding me of the opposition to widening the Katy Freeway back in the early 2000's. Some e-mail groups, some visionary op-eds in the Chronicle, some quotes from experts saying that widening freeways never has worked or will work, and... nothing. The widening took place.

 

I do think there was a successful opposition that stopped the widening of the West Loop to 24 lanes in the early 90's, but that was before my time.

 

 

my humble opinion - zero chance. Something has to be done because those integrity of the pierce elevated is terminal. Rebuilding it in its place wont do much good. Too much time and effort in this to abandon it now.

[Triton]

Zero chance it stops because despite the vocal opposition, there's still a good amount of support for the project that isn't quite that vocal. The city hasn't given any indication they are changing course either.

[ADCS]

1 hour ago, H-Town Man said:

I do think there was a successful opposition that stopped the widening of the West Loop to 24 lanes in the early 90's, but that was before my time.

 

That's only because it impacted Memorial Park, which annoyed the billionaire wife crowd.

[H-Town Man]

53 minutes ago, ADCS said:

That's only because it impacted Memorial Park, which annoyed the billionaire wife crowd.

 

Do the billionaire wives actually use Memorial Park or do they just have expansive lawns to look out on?

 

[ADCS]

8 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

 

Do the billionaire wives actually use Memorial Park or do they just have expansive lawns to look out on?

 

No, they like being philanthropic.

[cspwal]

17 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

 

Do the billionaire wives actually use Memorial Park or do they just have expansive lawns to look out on?

 

 

Both

[BeerNut]

H-GAC committee offers support for I-45 rebuild, but not without concerns

Quote

Ultimately, the technical committee approved the committal of $100 million in locally-controlled federal funds to the center segment of the I-45 project, per a request from TxDOT. The final decision rests with H-GAC’s Transportation Policy Council, which meets July 26.