I-45 Rebuild (North Houston Highway Improvement Project)

[IHB2]

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thanks dude. it's nice to have someone agree w/me.

[TheNiche]

I think he exaggerates, but freeways do alter the makeup of a neighborhood when they plow through the middle of it. there's no doubt about it, and there's no doubt that the alterations they make are negative.

PE specifically? it creates a clearer delineation between midtown and downtown, but the bus station on Main and homeless that hang around St Johns have a much greater impact on people venturing too far north from midtown.

Midtown as it is defined today is a hodgepodge of psychological boundaries. It used to be divided between the 3rd and 4th Wards along Main Street. Talk to the black community and they think that Midtown is an incursion into their territory. And back then, 4th Ward meant more than just Freedmen's Town. The freeways, the spur, the bus station, the shelters and pain clinics (the unsung villains), and the light rail tore it asunder from its old associations and totally reshaped it. It is one district and it is many.

And it may be easy to say that the Pierce Elevated is a barrier to downtown...but I'd argue that the derelict buildings and surface parking lots within the downtown district are a barrier to the actual downtown. Downtown hasn't gotten that far south yet. OTOH, 59/288 became a barrier between Midtown and the 3rd Ward. And that's been good for Midtown. You wouldn't see townhomes creeping across the barrier today if people hadn't felt that Midtown was a separate and insulated district in the first place. Depending on your background, you might see that as a good or a bad thing, so I won't proclaim it as either. Suffice it to say, the placement of a freeway can change a community...but change is not necessarily bad, or bad for everyone. It's just something that happens, a force of nature. The city as a whole will adapt to it, change will happen, and then it will be okay.

[ToryGattis]

More lanes are needed, and express lanes are certainly one way to get those lanes.

One problem is the placement of the columns to support the elevated express lanes. The lack of an interior shoulder on the Pierce Elevated rules out that option, so the elevated structure would basically need to span the entire Pierce Elevated.

A likely bigger problem would be objections from anti-freeway interests to a taller elevated structure.

If opposition could be overcome, an upper deck with elevated express lanes is likely the least expensive and surely the least disruptive option to add capacity.

Just drove it, and it definitely seems feasible to elevate 4 or 6 express I45 lanes over the Pierce Elevated and plug them to the underutilized, very long freeway ramps near Scott Street (3-4 lanes each direction!), but I agree it will take careful placement of the support columns. I'm not even sure there would be that much resistance from the adjacent buildings since their bottom level parking garages are quite high.

Not sure where to plug them in on the north side, but there seem to be plenty of options. Maybe near Dart street, just before I10?

[the.kgb]

What about removing the Pierce and routing all traffic along the east side of downtown on a widened 59?

From a land aquisition standpoint, all you have to do is buy all the blocks between Chartres and St. Emanuel and have a super wide/double deck/sunken freeway to handle the throughput. Much cheaper than trying to buy high-rises and you could probably make a few bucks selling the half blocks along where the Pierce is now.

Just my $0.02

[Slick Vik]

What about removing the Pierce and routing all traffic along the east side of downtown on a widened 59?

From a land aquisition standpoint, all you have to do is buy all the blocks between Chartres and St. Emanuel and have a super wide/double deck/sunken freeway to handle the throughput. Much cheaper than trying to buy high-rises and you could probably make a few bucks selling the half blocks along where the Pierce is now.

Just my $0.02

Sounds good to me.

[TheNiche]

What about removing the Pierce and routing all traffic along the east side of downtown on a widened 59?

From a land aquisition standpoint, all you have to do is buy all the blocks between Chartres and St. Emanuel and have a super wide/double deck/sunken freeway to handle the throughput. Much cheaper than trying to buy high-rises and you could probably make a few bucks selling the half blocks along where the Pierce is now.

Just my $0.02

The distance between the I-10/I-45 split and the I-45/US 59/SH 288 interchange is 2.3 miles along I-45 or 3.8 miles along I-10 and US 59. Adding to the land requirements for such a large and complex freeway such as you propose, there aren't currently very many ramps along the east side of downtown, so adding those from such a complex freeway would probably require more than just a single block of width in many places. And in fact, because there are so few east-west streets in east downtown that aren't truncated by Toyota Center, the GRB convention center, or Minute Maid Park, the ramps would pretty much have to be for Leeland/Bell, Capitol/Rusk, and Congress/Franlkin (each of these being one-way pairs). Polk and Texas would both be messy connections due to bidirectionality on one and the full width of light rail crossing the other. There are a whole slew of buildings that would bite the dust for ramps, including all three buildings from Lofts at the Ballpark.

I'd imagine that land costs would probably weight out pretty close to the same figure, going east or west. Where the value of buildings are concerned, Lofts at the Ballpark is probably far more valuable than 2016 Main, considering how low the condo prices are (on account of the extremely high maintenance fees because the building is in such poor shape). The only thing that's at all valuable along the Pierce Elevated is the St. Joseph Professional Building.

However, if you're talking about a single super-wide/double deck/sunken freeway that's large enough to handle all of today's capacity as well as to remain functional for a few decades, then we're talking about a really big and complicated road. I'd think that the hard costs would eclipse the land acquisition costs...and you have to build this expensive road 65% further along the eastern route than you would if you came up along the west side of downtown. Then consider that of what's left of I-45, you'd probably want to keep a portion of it in place to serve a purpose similar to Spur 527, as a rapid accessway to the western side of downtown but from the north. So that also has to be reconstructed and costs additional money, and you don't get to reclaim that land.

And after all is said and done, the eastern path is a longer commute in terms of distance for most people, so that's just one more downside.

[the.kgb]

The distance between the I-10/I-45 split and the I-45/US 59/SH 288 interchange is 2.3 miles along I-45 or 3.8 miles along I-10 and US 59. Adding to the land requirements for such a large and complex freeway such as you propose, there aren't currently very many ramps along the east side of downtown, so adding those from such a complex freeway would probably require more than just a single block of width in many places. And in fact, because there are so few east-west streets in east downtown that aren't truncated by Toyota Center, the GRB convention center, or Minute Maid Park, the ramps would pretty much have to be for Leeland/Bell, Capitol/Rusk, and Congress/Franlkin (each of these being one-way pairs). Polk and Texas would both be messy connections due to bidirectionality on one and the full width of light rail crossing the other. There are a whole slew of buildings that would bite the dust for ramps, including all three buildings from Lofts at the Ballpark.

I'd imagine that land costs would probably weight out pretty close to the same figure, going east or west. Where the value of buildings are concerned, Lofts at the Ballpark is probably far more valuable than 2016 Main, considering how low the condo prices are (on account of the extremely high maintenance fees because the building is in such poor shape). The only thing that's at all valuable along the Pierce Elevated is the St. Joseph Professional Building.

However, if you're talking about a single super-wide/double deck/sunken freeway that's large enough to handle all of today's capacity as well as to remain functional for a few decades, then we're talking about a really big and complicated road. I'd think that the hard costs would eclipse the land acquisition costs...and you have to build this expensive road 65% further along the eastern route than you would if you came up along the west side of downtown. Then consider that of what's left of I-45, you'd probably want to keep a portion of it in place to serve a purpose similar to Spur 527, as a rapid accessway to the western side of downtown but from the north. So that also has to be reconstructed and costs additional money, and you don't get to reclaim that land.

And after all is said and done, the eastern path is a longer commute in terms of distance for most people, so that's just one more downside.

I didn't think about the access isssues. Pretty much anything that is done is going to be hugely expensive anyway, downtown freeways are rarely a 'cheap fix'. It'll be interesting to see what the txdot studies come up with.

[infinite_jim]

Now that diesel exhaust has been medically and therefore legally determined to be a known carcinogen then it's highly unlikely that any vertical expansion of the PE will pass any DEIS.

They just don't build'm like they use to.

[TheNiche]

Now that diesel exhaust has been medically and therefore legally determined to be a known carcinogen then it's highly unlikely that any vertical expansion of the PE will pass any DEIS.

This interests me. Cite sources, please.

[TGM]

Now that diesel exhaust has been medically and therefore legally determined to be a known carcinogen then it's highly unlikely that any vertical expansion of the PE will pass any DEIS.

That should not be a deal killer. Diesel particles have been the main culprit and now that diesel particle filters are fast becoming common place I think I would be more worried about diesel exhaust from the construction of the road rather than the ongoing use of it.

Edited September 10, 2012 by TGM

[infinite_jim]

@Niche

A passing thought in the greater context..

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/12/health/diesel-fumes-cancer/index.html

That should not be a deal killer. Diesel particles have been the main culprit and now that diesel particle filters are fast becoming common place I think I would be more worried about diesel exhaust from the construction of the road rather than the ongoing use of it.

Good point. I was thinking this is not a bad idea (the roundabout loop) but we probably are quite a ways off before it's even necessary. Hopefully automated cars will solve most rush-hour congestion issues in the next coming decade.

As a resident, the problem with a demo of 2016 Main St. is that it's not a true steel curtain wall bldg. It's a solid, slip-formed brutalist concrete tower that would take a lot of jack hammers to take it down without closing the freeway and adjacent Gray St. Implosion is really the only way and then it would take a lot of cat herdering.

[infinite_jim]

Another corollary thought is that perhaps one way to alleviate some of the problems of elevated inner city freeways is to repave them with polymer aggregates to improve porosity, runoff, lessen tire wear, noise, bass vibrations etc.

[DonCheto]

I know that this topic has been brought up before, but why shouldn't Houston turn the Pierce elevated into the Pierce tunnel? The portion of I-45 that separates downtown from midtown definitely creates a barrier that hinders that part of the city to truly feel as one whole continuous neighborhood. Neighborhood might be the wrong word but I-45 definitely creates an obvious physical and psychological barrier. Why not make the pierce elevated into a tunnel with a boulevard on top of that. People driving through downtown would have the option of taking the tunnel, no lights, just a freeway that turns into a tunnel. Or exiting pierce take pierce and hop back on 45. Some off and on ramps would have to be reconfigured but that's part of the construction. I don't know how this would create more traffic than what already exists. Don't start bashing me, I just want some further insight on why this could or couldn't work.

[JJxvi]

Always good to see new ideas.

[Montrose1100]

A boulevard on top would be pointless, since the freeway takes up half a block, and is bound by one way streets on both sides.

I would like to see development take place above and have a continuous flow into Midtown. I really think 45 should be buried all the way from the I10 exchange, even going under the bayou, connecting the park to the edge of Downtown.

59 hasn't hindered development but I think it would be amazing if the entire freeway ring around Downtown was completely buried.

[DonCheto]

@Montrose 1100 You're right about the boulevard being pointless, maybe making a pierce a little wider and turning it into a major thoroughfare.

[IronTiger]

You just signed up to HAIF an hour ago and made this post. You must forgive me if I think you're a puppet of another member here.

[TowerSpotter]

A boulevard on top would be pointless, since the freeway takes up half a block, and is bound by one way streets on both sides.

I would like to see development take place above and have a continuous flow into Midtown. I really think 45 should be buried all the way from the I10 exchange, even going under the bayou, connecting the park to the edge of Downtown.

59 hasn't hindered development but I think it would be amazing if the entire freeway ring around Downtown was completely buried.

I completely agree with you there, having the whole ring of freeways around downtown buried would certainly be a great idea. Especially 59, which to me is like a long wall that separates Downtown and East End.

[DonCheto]

No one is a puppet, I just decided to finally make an account. I've been coming to this website and many like it for years, but never had the balls to make an account. I'm a 21 year old college student who has a very strong interest in things going on in my city. I was reading the previous topic about the Houston freeways being done and decided, "what the heck" and made an account. It's understandable that you could have made the assumption of me being a puppet after posting so soon.

[Slick Vik]

You just signed up to HAIF an hour ago and made this post. You must forgive me if I think you're a puppet of another member here.

I have nothing to do with this

[TowerSpotter]

I have nothing to do with this

Hmmmm.

[TowerSpotter]

I have nothing to do with this

Delete was a copy.

Edited August 13, 2013 by TowerSpotter

[Slick Vik]

Hmmmm.

You can confirm with editor. I did get a chuckle out of reading the post though. Can see the suspicion.

[Hugh Stone]

Remember 'nucklehead'?

 

I don't know if Slick Vic is DonCheto, but I'm almost certain that he used to go by an obnoxious banned poster named "nucklehead" that diminished the quality of this website a few years ago for a short time. Nucklehead started ridiculous inane topic after topic to bash Houston, deliberately infuriate people who really like Houston and created threads to engage in flamewars to distract himself from what surly must be a very mundane existance.  

 

Sure, it was entertaining enough, but I remember how thread after thread was constantly derailed and hijacked so that everyone just talked about nucklehead's made up adventures and fabricated stories of fortune that even a small child would question. Sound familiar? Same M.O.

 

Editor, if it is a violation to have more than one username at this website, please check this out. I would love nothing more than to see Slick Vic's account be deleted so that this website can get back in business. It's a great time to be into Houston, please don't let this troll drive away the valuable contributors to this website.

 

If I'm wrong, my apologies to all.

 

[Slick Vik]

Remember 'nucklehead'?

 

I don't know if Slick Vic is DonCheto, but I'm almost certain that he used to go by an obnoxious banned poster named "nucklehead" that diminished the quality of this website a few years ago for a short time. Nucklehead started ridiculous inane topic after topic to bash Houston, deliberately infuriate people who really like Houston and created threads to engage in flamewars to distract himself from what surly must be a very mundane existance.  

 

Sure, it was entertaining enough, but I remember how thread after thread was constantly derailed and hijacked so that everyone just talked about nucklehead's made up adventures and fabricated stories of fortune that even a small child would question. Sound familiar? Same M.O.

 

Editor, if it is a violation to have more than one username at this website, please check this out. I would love nothing more than to see Slick Vic's account be deleted so that this website can get back in business. It's a great time to be into Houston, please don't let this troll drive away the valuable contributors to this website.

 

If I'm wrong, my apologies to all.

 

I'm not nucklehead. I don't even know who that was. This is my only user name at this site. I like Houston, in fact I choose to live here. It is making some great improvements for sure. All I advocate for is some more, particularly transit wise, to make it a great city. Whether they will happen or not, we will see. But I have the right to hope.

 

Your insulting posts are not good for the quality of the board.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Slick Vik

[DonCheto]

Remember 'nucklehead'?

I don't know if Slick Vic is DonCheto, but I'm almost certain that he used to go by an obnoxious banned poster named "nucklehead" that diminished the quality of this website a few years ago for a short time. Nucklehead started ridiculous inane topic after topic to bash Houston, deliberately infuriate people who really like Houston and created threads to engage in flamewars to distract himself from what surly must be a very mundane existance.

Sure, it was entertaining enough, but I remember how thread after thread was constantly derailed and hijacked so that everyone just talked about nucklehead's made up adventures and fabricated stories of fortune that even a small child would question. Sound familiar? Same M.O.

Editor, if it is a violation to have more than one username at this website, please check this out. I would love nothing more than to see Slick Vic's account be deleted so that this website can get back in business. It's a great time to be into Houston, please don't let this troll drive away the valuable contributors to this website.

If I'm wrong, my apologies to all.[/quote

[DonCheto]

I apologize for making a thread about something that I felt was an interesting topic. I'm still new at posting on this forum, as you can tell by me posting a quote without a reply. I am not someone who has several usernames that is secretly trying to bash houston. I have lived here my whole life and I love my city. If anyone is ruining this board it's the people that continue to post irrelevant replies that have nothing to do with the OP.

[Montrose1100]

I apologize for making a thread about something that I felt was an interesting topic. I'm still new at posting on this forum, as you can tell by me posting a quote without a reply. I am not someone who has several usernames that is secretly trying to bash houston. I have lived here my whole life and I love my city. If anyone is ruining this board it's the people that continue to post irrelevant replies that have nothing to do with the OP.

 

Well seeing as to how we have the same topic right below this one, going at the same time by someone else I can see his/her suspicions. Also something about the wording is... similar. Anyways, welcome to the forum.

[DonCheto]

Thanks for the welcome. Can we all just stay on topic now? I think the pierce elevated should be converted into a tunnel. Drivers have plenty of different routes they could take and I don't think traffic would be any different. Other than the traffic created by the construction I don't see how this could be a negative.

[Slick Vik]

Thanks for the welcome. Can we all just stay on topic now? I think the pierce elevated should be converted into a tunnel. Drivers have plenty of different routes they could take and I don't think traffic would be any different. Other than the traffic created by the construction I don't see how this could be a negative.

 

How about close it and send the traffic to 59?