I-45 Rebuild (North Houston Highway Improvement Project)

[tigereye]

Handouts for the Public meetings which will be held throughout the course of this week and next week:

Its still not perfect.....but holy crap they really going the extra mile! The scope of this project is enormous. It might turn into the biggest reroute in US history not just in Houston or Texas!

For more info on the images and other images as well the link is here:

http://www.ih45northandmore.com/scoping_documents4.aspx

The big thing I take away from this is not only the removal of Pierce Elevated, but the amount of freeway distances that will become depressed both behind the convention center and even 59 in between the Spur and 288 split. This is in addition to sections already depressed. Lots of opportunities to create miles of deck parks surrounding the city center. (Maybe they could be used for bike trails!)

It's like Houston's version of the Boston Big Dig/Central Artery project ...hopefully just not as costly.

Edited April 23, 2015 by tigereye

[UtterlyUrban]

It's like Houston's version of the Boston Big Dig/Central Artery project ...hopefully just not as costly.

Or take as long.

[MaxConcrete]

nah, the Hardy Downtown Connector is there (in brown) to the left of the black RR tracks.

and WOOOO!!! unfortunately they say the green space is just conceptual and depends on separate funding/development. so I'm not going to get my hopes up for the deck park, but I'm glad they are trying to get rid of the Pierce.

 

Klyde Warren Park in downtown Dallas, opened in 2012, placed a deck park over three city blocks where the Woodall Freeway was trenched. It cost $110 million, with about $50 million for the deck and $60 million for the park amenities.It was about 50% privately funded.

 

But the proposed trench with US 59 and I-45 is about twice as wide as Woodall Rodgers Freeway. So I think we are looking at some serious money, probably $200 million just for the space behind the convention center..

 

I'm thinking TxDOT will design the freeway on the east side of downtown so that it can be overdecked if/when funding becomes available. I can't see the City of Houston alone coming up with the money, it will need to be a joint effort of many agencies and funding sources.

 

Edited April 23, 2015 by MaxConcrete

[IronTiger]

Klyde Warren Park in downtown Dallas, opened in 2012, placed a deck park over three city blocks where the Woodall Freeway was trenched. It cost $110 million, with about $50 million for the deck and $60 million for the park amenities.It was about 50% privately funded.

But the proposed trench with US 59 and I-45 is about twice as wide as Woodall Rodgers Freeway. So I think we are looking at some serious money, probably $200 million just for the space behind the convention center..

I'm thinking TxDOT will design the freeway on the east side of downtown so that it can be overdecked if/when funding becomes available. I can't see the City of Houston alone coming up with the money, it will need to be a joint effort of many agencies and funding sources.

Add another $100 million or so in modern dollars for the original building of the Woodall Freeway, too. I imagine with that, right of way, demolition, and traffic control, probably closer to $400 million.

[Montrose1100]

I would really like to see more details about the northern section over the bayou. It would bring peace to my soul to know that there are plans to rid the city of the ribbons of concrete over the bayou.

I-10/I-45 when they are aligned is already quite a beast. I guess adding more would be a compromise for getting rid of the pierce elevated. Even without a park on top, sinking 59 by the GRB and that side of Downtown would also be a colossal victory.

This city is certainly on the right track. Maybe at a slower pace... But still a pace.

[cloud713]

The point of the web sites is that by preserving the structure and repurposing it, you create something interesting and distinctive which can set downtown Houston apart from other downtowns. Suppose you would replace it with buildings, most likely 5-6 floor apartment structures. Not very interesting. And we all know about the perennial popularity of the Memorial Park jogging trail; the idea is to duplicate that kind of popularity with the recreation park, and offer a viewing platform for the curious and tourist-types.

 

I think "billions" big exaggeration. Keep in mind there is a ample supply of parking lots and lower-tier commercial properties south of the Pierce Elevated that are available for development. There is no shortage of developable property. Available properties will become more valuable of course, with or without demolition. The idea is that properties south of the elevated structure will become even more valuable if they connect into the park (for example apartments), and restaurants/bars could have street level and park-level areas.

 

I agree, the recreation path would still be feasible if only half the Pierce Elevated is preserved. But that would eliminate many options, such as food truck areas, pavilions, plazas and event zones. A realistic plan would probably preserve the full width in certain areas and maybe half the width in other areas, to open up areas on the ground level for access and plazas.

 

The freeway corridor will remain on the northwest side, according to the TxDOT plans online. In fact, even tying the Pierce Elevated recreation path into Buffalo Bayou trails could be difficult since the TxDOT plans show the freeway starting at Jefferson and going north. But it could be done with a little planning.

yeah i get it.. sorry if i came off like a prick with my opening statement. its just that as others have pointed out, theres really no character to the Pierce. its just like any other concrete overpass. isn't the Highline structure more like the elevated Chicago El trains? those have a neat ambiance to them. concrete poles and beams don't really do much for me personally.

why would the buildings replacing it be "mostly 5-6 floor apartment structures"? the west side of downtown is pretty slammed with tall skyscrapers. 609 Main will likely sell for 500+ million dollars if/when whoever leases it decides to buy it out. a couple of those office towers mixed with some residential towers could easily add up to a couple billion. 

what buildings are currently up against the Pierce besides 2016 Main? you would have to demo existing structures and build new developments to tie into the Pierce. starting to dip into these "savings".

i like the idea of a full width plaza somewhere along it narrowing down to the half size stretches to open up the areas below. i don't think any stretch of the park would need to go beyond Main St though if it were to happen.

yeah true.. the Pierce park would definitely have to tie into Buffalo Bayou Park.

[lockmat]

Totally confused by those photos, I'll need to click the link for more detail.

 

If a park was placed on 59, GRB would need another major face lift or a really good paint job on that side. Not need, but it would be nice.

[sdotwill84]

Totally confused by those photos, I'll need to click the link for more detail.

 

If a park was placed on 59, GRB would need another major face lift or a really good paint job on that side. Not need, but it would be nice.

 

I was thinking this as well.

 

Oh how I would love a completely refaced GRB.

Edited April 23, 2015 by sdotwill84

[JLWM8609]

While everyone is happy that the plans call for the Pierce Elevated to be eliminated as a barrier between Midtown and Downtown, I see some things that will likely cause some understandable controversy. This may be called the North Houston Highway Improvement Project, but the southern end of the project is in 3rd Ward and it looks like some of the street grid in the area to the west of Almeda, namely Cleburne, Caroline, Crawford, Austin, Eagle, Blodgett and Barbee Streets will be cut off in some parts if I-69/US59 is trenched. It also shows a new offramp from I-69/US59 to Almeda at Truxillo plowing through the S.H.A.P.E. Community Center's administrative offices, and it looks like the current free exit from 288 to Chenevert Street will become accessible only via the managed lanes.

 

I wonder if there will as much lament here that the proposed trenched I-69/US 59 will interrupt parts of the street grid in 3rd Ward as there is that the Pierce Elevated is a barrier to Midtown and Downtown even though it allows for the street grid between Midtown and Downtown remain intact?

 

I'm basing my observations on these plans: http://www.ih45northandmore.com/docs4/16_20150417_Seg3_PM4_Exhibit_02_Eastern_Half.pdf

Edited April 23, 2015 by JLWM8609

[lockmat]

Ummm, yes please. I'm not really concerned about being a copy cat, people here would eat this up like a fake town square in the suburbs. It would also attract more residents to the downtown/midtown area. Creating a boulevard, which would also be nice, would only improve the area so much. This makes it stand out.

 

As far as the concern with the underbelly of it, I'm sure they can be creative and do something with that, too. Either use it for parking for the people driving to their urbanism and then going home (like my sig says) or they could easily build restaurants or whatever you wanted to, I would assume.

Edited April 23, 2015 by lockmat

[asubrt]

I'm probably going to get killed for this, but I'm sad to hear that the Pierce is going to be destroyed. It's my favorite stretch of highway in Houston: I love driving through and having such a close-up view of the skyline above street level. Obviously traffic is a major issue and something has to be done, and expansion isn't really realistic, but demolition of the Pierce along with trenching of 59/69 will take away a lot of the great drive-by views of Houston. 

 

Also, I like having a distinct boundary between neighborhoods, such as downtown/midtown with the Pierce or downtown/EaDo with 59. I guess if they kept it as some sort of High Line type structure (though I don't want to completely rip off New York, I would prefer something original and Houstonian) it would still keep those two neighborhoods separate and unique. The homeless camps underneath are an issue of course, and the area of midtown near here is sketchy (though this may owe more to the Greyhound station than the highway), but this could perhaps be improved upon with some retail near or actually underneath and reducing the width of the structure (and of course moving the Greyhound station, which always seems to get brought up but who knows if it will ever happen). Anyway, I know my views on this topic are contrarian to almost every single person on this forum, but just thought I'd throw in my thoughts. Flame away.

[lockmat]

I'm probably going to get killed for this, but I'm sad to hear that the Pierce is going to be destroyed. It's my favorite stretch of highway in Houston: I love driving through and having such a close-up view of the skyline above street level. Obviously traffic is a major issue and something has to be done, and expansion isn't really realistic, but demolition of the Pierce along with trenching of 59/69 will take away a lot of the great drive-by views of Houston. 

 

Also, I like having a distinct boundary between neighborhoods, such as downtown/midtown with the Pierce or downtown/EaDo with 59. I guess if they kept it as some sort of High Line type structure (though I don't want to completely rip off New York, I would prefer something original and Houstonian) it would still keep those two neighborhoods separate and unique. The homeless camps underneath are an issue of course, and the area of midtown near here is sketchy (though this may owe more to the Greyhound station than the highway), but this could perhaps be improved upon with some retail near or actually underneath and reducing the width of the structure (and of course moving the Greyhound station, which always seems to get brought up but who knows if it will ever happen). Anyway, I know my views on this topic are contrarian to almost every single person on this forum, but just thought I'd throw in my thoughts. Flame away.

 

I see where you're coming from as far as the views, but the only safe way to do it is while sitting in traffic on the west side. The south side usually runs pretty smooth and yeah, it is fun to see it while driving. Guess we'll have rubber necking joggers instead of drivers

[Slick Vik]

I was destroyed for months saying Houston didn't need the pierce. Eat crow

[Dakota79]

I was thinking this as well.

Oh how I would love a completely refaced GRB.

I agree. It's only been a dated design since day one! Embarrassing. I go to DC a lot for conventions and their convention center is gorgeous.

[cloud713]

.

Edited April 23, 2015 by cloud713

[lockmat]

I'm a little confused about 59/45 next to the GRB. Would it be underground or simply submerged? If submerged, I guess the Astros parking lot and the Ballpark apartments would be toast, right? Or no?

[UtterlyUrban]

Also, I like having a distinct boundary between neighborhoods, ......

If the pierce was replaced with a linear park would that not create the boundary you seek?

[UtterlyUrban]

For those folks who actually know how to read plans like these (I.e. Not me) is there anything here that would indicate whether the 45-59 alignment behind the GRB will be a tunnel or will it be a cut? If it's a cut, it looks like a significant condemnation? If a tunnel, perhaps not?

[IronTiger]

I was destroyed for months saying Houston didn't need the pierce. Eat crow

The preliminary plans do remove the Pierce but also involve a comprehensive re-do of the entire downtown-area freeway system, and Interstate 45 is being re-routed on its own separate lanes. (and what the timetable is, I don't know...by then the Pierce might be up for replacement anyway) What you were saying was that they should just remove the Pierce wholesale and then kind of shrugged on how traffic should adjust. Between that and insulting TxDOT at every turn, I don't think you're entitled to an "I told you so" moment.

[Luminare]

For those folks who actually know how to read plans like these (I.e. Not me) is there anything here that would indicate whether the 45-59 alignment behind the GRB will be a tunnel or will it be a cut? If it's a cut, it looks like a significant condemnation? If a tunnel, perhaps not?

 

If you look at the third image. At the top you will see the GRB. Further down on that map you will see a large white box with some stuff in it. The stuff in that box is a section through that part of the highway. They will not be tunneling it. They will instead depress or trench the highway. The parks or whatever could go on top as people have suggested are support by massive concrete beams which would cover the trench.

[samagon]

This is actually a pretty well thought out plan, I don't see it alleviating traffic at all near where 288/59/45 is, but it at least opens up the possibility of downtown actually being a part of the city and not being a walled garden, or a castle with a huge moat in the middle of the city.

 

 

That would be Clayton Homes, a subsidized housing complex. It should be relocated, but its not the residents' land.

 

They'll be relocated to new housing on plots where the existing pierce elevated is

[samagon]

If the pierce was replaced with a linear park would that not create the boundary you seek?

 

I imagine the money that they have to spend on ED for the land around the GRB and stadiums would be offset by selling the land where pierce is currently (and other areas where freeway is removed).

[cloud713]

Anyone going to the meeting tonight?

[JJxvi]

Its at least 6 city blocks worth of land.  (12 half blocks) so we are talking maybe $40 million dollars or more of property.

[lockmat]

Anyone going to the meeting tonight?

 I am, but the one at the Aldine campus.

[Triton]

I haven't been able to check much on vacation so sorry if this has been asked... What is the time line for this thing?

[htownproud]

one nice thing about the current system is that you have alternative routes if there is a wreck (and only half of the total traffic in that direction is affected by a wreck b/c the other half is on the other route).  that goes away with this proposal (I suppose you can drive on the streets in downtown).  And how many lanes will be needed when 45/10 and 45/69 are merged?  10 lanes each way?  12?  At some point you would think you couldn't just keep adding lanes.  

[samagon]

Would be cool, but I bet the state/city are banking on selling that land for a handful of cash.

 

Maybe something a little smaller, say from where it starts to go elevated right after W. Dallas to Travis. Still a good stretch (probably just under 1/2 mile), and great views.

 

They still get to sell a lot of land in prime territory, and there's a nice homage to the elevated.

Edited April 23, 2015 by samagon

[Luminare]

I haven't been able to check much on vacation so sorry if this has been asked... What is the time line for this thing?

 

I've been seeing dates float around pointing to 2020? Not too sure.

[jackie21love]

I've been seeing dates float around pointing to 2020? Not too sure.

It is a blessing if they could finish it within 10 years…