I-45 Rebuild (North Houston Highway Improvement Project)

[cloud713]

its definitely doable, i just think we would be better making something from scratch somewhere that weaves its way through a district or two instead of distinctly divides two separate districts.

if it had to be doable i really like the idea of connecting a hike/bike path along a reduced Bagby up to the Pierce. it would be a pedestrian link deep into midtown to provide easier access for the residents to get to the elevated park. as it is now hardly anyone lives along the Pierce except 2016 and the Houstonix(?), to populate the park. though as cspwal says, it would surely draw a few residential projects closer to the park.

[bachanon]

Something from scratch is less feasible than repurposed.....or is it? Guess it depends.

[Luminare]

 

DO YOU SMELLLLLLLLL another HAIF charette? lol

[Nate99]

If they demo it, I just ask that they accidentally the Greyhound station in to a pile of rubble.

[BigFootsSocks]

"Oops, we accidentally set dynamite in the station...our bad I guess"

[Nate99]

"Oops, we accidentally set dynamite in the station...our bad I guess"

 

Greyhound's insurance would have to pay them for the increased market value.

[BigFootsSocks]

I honestly can't find any issues with this idea.

[bachanon]

pedestrian activity to/from St Josephs, the METRO building, and Mickey Leeland Federal Building? i just don't see it happening. how many people live in 2016 Main anyways? it would be legit for those residents, but lets face it.. why spend all this money for a mediocre residential high-rise to have a pretty elevated park in front of it for access to the transit authority headquarters, the hospital, and federal offices? it doesn't make sense. the idea is cool, but I'm with Luminare. it was fun scheming up new designs to repurpose it, but tear that thing down.

like i said earlier. build a few lofty, airy elevated platforms here and there for skyline views and performances underneath, or build a brand new "HighLine" through a part of downtown were trying to revitalize. but just because its already there doesn't mean it makes sense to repurpose it. but if you must.. it would be better to ditch some of the southern traffic flow along Bagby towards the i69 spur and only save the a narrow section of the western portion of the pierce from Buffalo Bayou to the curve around Mickey Leeland, and instead of make the turn, follow a narrowed Bagby that features a wide hike/bike path along it going south into Midtown, possibly going as far south as W Alabama or even Richmond. the Pierce section turn east between downtown and midtown is pointless IMO, and would be better served developed and with a few parks at ground level.

See Discovery Green and Market Square. ..other developers would scramble to build on the perimeter and attach to it...it would become yet another symbol of the greening of Houston. An example that we do not waste what is still usable.

[BigFootsSocks]

Man I really like this idea now...I'd need to see a hell of a lot more though to fully convince me. Something that can; utilize the space efficiently, create a seamless transition from Buffalo Bayou, and be able to use the empty space underneath the freeway. 

[cloud713]

well.. if we must.

SkyPark..

Green - Phase 1 - bayou to midtown loop
Red - Phase 2 - downtown expansion

pink - sites ripe for redevelopment
light blue - planned/UC developments

Edited April 28, 2015 by cloud713

[BigFootsSocks]

I'm gonna take a look at this later tmrw, but damn wouldn't it be fkin badass if the proposed park could include room for a couple stages for FPSF? Imagine a hype af crowd going ham on the Pierce.

[cloud713]

I'm gonna take a look at this later tmrw, but damn wouldn't it be fkin badass if the proposed park could include room for a couple stages for FPSF? Imagine a hype af crowd going ham on the Pierce.

Heh, I have a big outdoor theater type thing at the large grassy area north of W Dallas facing south. The stage would go directly under (or just in front of) W Dallas bridge.

[IronTiger]

Besides the whole "you've been calling it a dividing line for years and now you want to keep it?" problem, the Pierce Elevated isn't really that high off the ground, is it? I seem to recall from Google Maps Street View that it's probably no more than the standard 15-16 ft. clearance (maybe up to 20, if we're generous), and it certainly wouldn't be a great view like the High Line was.

[BigFootsSocks]

Besides the whole "you've been calling it a dividing line for years and now you want to keep it?" problem, the Pierce Elevated isn't really that high off the ground, is it? I seem to recall from Google Maps Street View that it's probably no more than the standard 15-16 ft. clearance (maybe up to 20, if we're generous), and it certainly wouldn't be a great view like the High Line was.

Opinions change. Mine just happens to be confused.

[cspwal]

Looking at the article about the High Line, some of the interesting parts are how long it is, and that it actually goes through buildings!  An elevated viewing platform of the bayou would be cool, but I don't know if the entire stretch of the Pierce elevated would be as interesting as a park.  I am coming around to the idea of keeping at least some of it though

[Sparrow]

Couple of thoughts here. Millions upon millions of dollars spent to fix up Buffalo Bayou and y'all would rather go prancing around on the freeway. If you want an elevated view of downtown buildings just go walking thru the tunnel system--there's numerous elevated walkways there--but they're covered and air conditioned. If y'all wanted to make a park out of this elevated freeway section in Houston you're thinking about it all wrong. It's the underside that's the big complaint anyhow, right? Build the park there, under the Pierce. Check out the proposed Lowline for NYC instead of the Highline. A covered park for Downtown would be interesting (it's what so many propose for the Dome, right?). ..and above the covered park on the Pierce bring in the new high speed rail and put the station right at Main Street adjacent to the Downtown Transit Center. It would be as central to the Downtown/Midtown district as you could possibly achieve under the best scenario. Demolish the remaining section, or perhaps leave it in play for a possible HSR extension to Galveston. Everyone wins.

[cloud713]

alright. i read up a little on the High Line last night. its not quite as twisty as i remembered (guess i was thinking of Phase 3), so i revised my Sky Park plans.

Pierce Sky Park - take 2

again,
Phase 1 is green
Phase 2 is red (possibly built concurrently with the Phase 1 Pierce Sky Park redevelopment if enough money can be raised in time)
Pink is sites ripe for redevelopment
Light Blue is planned/UC developments

Yellow is the Lamar Bike Path (plus an elevated extension on the west side linking up to the envisioned Sky Park hike/bike path)

as you can see, it forms a large loop trail system around southern downtown thats 2.5 miles long, and like the High Line revitalizing Chelsea NYC, the Phase 2(?) new expansion has a lot of potential to revitalize southeastern downtown.

if this thing got popular enough they could somehow build a link down into the heart of midtown and expand the park system.

btw, for other reference.. Chicago has a pretty extensive elevated park (3 miles?) redevelopment taking place right now. i didn't realize the High Line was inspired by a similar park built in the early '90s in Paris (also almost 3 miles, or twice the length of the High Line)

[cloud713]

Sparrow is good... just when i thought i had it all figured out. lol. though i see the sky park as being a sort of connector for midtown to the new Buffalo Bayou park redevelopment, and the rest of the bayou trail system.
 

Couple of thoughts here. Millions upon millions of dollars spent to fix up Buffalo Bayou and y'all would rather go prancing around on the freeway. If you want an elevated view of downtown buildings just go walking thru the tunnel system--there's numerous elevated walkways there--but they're covered and air conditioned. If y'all wanted to make a park out of this elevated freeway section in Houston you're thinking about it all wrong. It's the underside that's the big complaint anyhow, right? Build the park there, under the Pierce. Check out the proposed Lowline for NYC instead of the Highline. A covered park for Downtown would be interesting (it's what so many propose for the Dome, right?). ..and above the covered park on the Pierce bring in the new high speed rail and put the station right at Main Street adjacent to the Downtown Transit Center. It would be as central to the Downtown/Midtown district as you could possibly achieve under the best scenario. Demolish the remaining section, or perhaps leave it in play for a possible HSR extension to Galveston. Everyone wins.

thanks for mentioning the LowLine. i was going to bring that up in reference to our Underground Cistern at Buffalo Bayou that no one can figure out what to do with, but it could totally work under the Pierce. and of course I'm digging the HSR extension to Galveston. though i don't see how it would get anywhere beyond the 45/288/69 interchange. and idk if it is built to handle the weight. i like the thought though!

Edited April 28, 2015 by cloud713

[JLWM8609]

Did anyone go to the meeting at HCC tonight?

 

I did and I'm working on my public comments.

Edited April 29, 2015 by JLWM8609

[cloud713]

yeah, the resistance against the 610 widening was because people didn't want to lose any of Memorial Park. how ridiculous.. that thing is like 1,500 acres, and you aren't willing to throw a couple dozen to TxDot for better traffic flow through uptown?? ugh.

[cloud713]

Wasn't the rebuild of the 610/59 interchange partially to incorporate the Westpark Tollway? I also did read that around 1990, they wanted to build an "Uptown Parkway" (or something), a project that would restore a true north-south surface street to the area (something Post Oak Blvd. used to do, and would alleviate congestion in the area), but they didn't want to lose Memorial Park and also canned the idea.

i appreciate an outsiders perspective of Houston, but what the hell are you talking about? i just checked Google Earth. Post Oak didn't exist in 1944. and by the 1953 update Post Oak was built.. WITH THE CURVE. please show me where Post Oak used to be a straight N/S road. also id love to hear more about this "uptown parkway" thing. assuming you didn't make that up too..

[Triton]

Did anyone go to the meeting at HCC tonight?

 

I did and I'm working on my public comments.

abe-simpson-typewriter.png

Put in my comment as well!

[Montrose1100]

Never in my life would I have ever expected the Pierce to be removed as a freeway. What a sensory overload of joy and happiness. I would never fathom that TXDOT would even consider this. And to not rid I-45 completely, and sink 59. Win/win/win.

And equally as unreal, after plans from the DoT are shown to remove this, people are seriously wanting to save it! Every dust of concrete and rebar from this should be completely removed.

Might as well keep it a freeway. You not only will still keep the highest density/Urban neighborhoods (both of which have seen complete renaissances), divided, but you can still have your food trucks and performance venues underneath while it's a working freeway. You also won't lose your precious lesser of the many views of Downtown (yeah I know that it subjective).

I'm all for innovative and exciting ideas... But saving the Pierce is neither. The two worst sides of both neighborhoods have the potential to join together. Eventually, development will blend them together. Keeping the freeway will hinder this.

Stop comparing this to the high line. The chance for the city of New York to add that amount of green space without destroying any current buildings is a huge victory. Saving the Pierce doesn't make any sense in a city where the land is plentiful. It's an ugly and cheap simple concrete freeway. No architectural significance, no history, this is the sort of thing the city should be bulldozing. I know building a park on an old freeway sounds special and unique... And in some cases it can/could be. I'm usually empathetic but I don't see one positive to saving anything.

Edit: oops! Wrong Pierce thread. Mods please move.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Montrose1100

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

Eff that, tear it down, sell the land since the real estate is valuable, and help pay for the acquisition costs it will take to buy the land and building on Walker and St Emanuel where Neils Bahr sits

[IronTiger]

i appreciate an outsiders perspective of Houston, but what the hell are you talking about? i just checked Google Earth. Post Oak didn't exist in 1944. and by the 1953 update Post Oak was built.. WITH THE CURVE. please show me where Post Oak used to be a straight N/S road. also id love to hear more about this "uptown parkway" thing. assuming you didn't make that up too..

 

Post Oak Blvd. is not a straight north/south road, no. What I mean is if you look at a map of Houston, you'll see major "north-south" roads and "east-west" roads. Westheimer, Bissonnet, San Felipe, and others. North-South roads include Kirby, Chimney Rock, Shepherd. Before 610 Loop began, Post Oak Road ran from Hempstead Road (no 290) to past the Brays Bayou. 

 

At some point, when 610 was built, TxDOT decided to replace much of Post Oak Road with a freeway. A small part of it north of Memorial was left intact (N. Post Oak Rd., to 290), and south of the southwest corner the Post Oak name also continues (though this too was planned to be a freeway at one time). The curve in Post Oak Road was cut off and straightened to be part of an interchange with 610, and was renamed Post Oak Boulevard.

 

This robbed a vital link to the rest of the city, and only got worse as time went on and the Uptown/Galleria area got more crowded and was a mess of streets that curved in on each other and dead-ended, and because the nearest "north-south road" that integrated it with the rest of the city was Chimney Rock, nearly a mile out of the way, 610 ended up doing double duty as not only its function as a highway but also the north-south surface street that used to be there. Result: legendary congestion.

 

This problem was apparent even in the late 1980s, when several projects were proposed to fix the issue [sweeping traffic plan for Galleria area proposed

Houston Chronicle - Thursday, AUGUST 24, 1989], 31 of them, in fact. The plan involved switching a few roads to one way only and widening others, but the hallmark was the Uptown Parkway. It would be, and I quote, "a new road linking Post Oak Boulevard to Woodway that would require using a piece of the western tip of Memorial Park, west of Loop 610."

Sadly, this and a plan to widen 610 were both killed when the area residents protested it.

Some choice quotes:

"In an age when major cities in the U.S. are banning and even dismantling inner-city aerial traffic structures, the idea of elevated express lanes seems to be a step in the wrong direction," said Seger, an official with the Afton Oaks Civic Club.

"If I don't widen the freeway I will have 275,000 people saying, `You let a few pushy people convince you to not build the thing,'" said Garrison.

Now, I know this isn't quite totally related to the Pierce Elevated, but I answered your question, the quotes link back to the Pierce Elevated, and there's mention of certain NIMBYs too!

(Both quotes from "Council asked to oppose plans for park, West Loop roadways"

Houston Chronicle - Thursday, JANUARY 11, 1990)

[cloud713]

ah, i see what you mean now. my bad.. i wonder how they planned on getting Post Oak past Uptown Park. too bad they can't tunnel Post Oak at 610, going east, and pop out in the south side of Memorial Park before merging into Memorial Dr. (which would theoretically be trenched through the residential section with the stoplights to eliminate any stopping between downtown and uptown).

[JJxvi]

The reasonable N/S fix is to connect and make Sage/Silber a major road (would bet money based on the fact they are on the exact boundary line that this was intended).  Wouldn't happen in a million years considering the homes between Memorial and the bayou.

Edited April 29, 2015 by JJxvi

[downtownian]

Poll: Pierce Skypark or Demolish Pierce Elevated?

[Slick Vik]

Tear it down

[cspwal]

Tear it down, but have it open temporarily to the public to walk on - Sunday streets but on the freeway.  After the new alignment is built of course.

[bobruss]

This is a hard call. I was all for tearing it down at first, but I can see some really wonderful things coming out of this idea.

I wouldn't necessarily want the whole pierce elevated saved but maybe a good portion of it on the sw corner. Say from the 45 entrance

ramp off of allen parkway to the west grey street intersection. I'd leave that end looking like the iconic freeway damaged by the earthquake on I think it was the Eagles album. I'm not sure that was the group but everyone knows the image.

[Montrose1100]

Eliminate any trace of it.

I'm all for a ground park taking its place. Trees, running paths, whatever. Even if it wasn't a park, it's got to go.

[LarryDierker]

I'm undecided on what I want to happen. But when it comes to what will actually happen, my money is on surface parking.

[UtterlyUrban]

Tear it down. Then, create a ground level linear park just like boston.

[Luminare]

Like I said before. I thought it was a fun design idea and I think it would be interesting to see a sort of competition that would envision a world with it or without.

 

With that in mind I hope they give us a chance to give it a whack! They could charge $100 a swing, and I wouldn't care! I would be first in line to swing the sledgehammer and bring it down myself!

Edited April 29, 2015 by Luminare

[Sparrow]

As long as the corridor is maintained, there's always the chance a freeway could go back in. Sell off the land and build a dozen high rises in its place.

 

A park on the Pierce would likely leave the park over the highway by the GRB without funding. I'll take TxDOT's 10 block long proposed park over 59/69/288/45 all day long. Does anyone really think Houston has enough philanthropy to fund the GRB deck park, additional extension of Buffalo Bayou park toward the East End, the indoor Astrodome park, and a Pierce elevated park. I think not.

[IronTiger]

It would save the state money if they sold the freeway to the park foundation (or whatever) at market price, saving money on demolition. It's up to them to see it restored, torn down, or let it sit.

[Luminare]

damn it >.< I want to look into this....must keep working on....portfolio D:  I guess I will touch on this in a couple of weeks.

[cloud713]

We don't need the Pierce, but some sort of narrow elevated path connecting Midtown to Buffalo Bayou would be cool.

http://www.wired.com/2014/08/copenhagens-new-bike-skyway-makes-commuting-look-fun/

[Nate99]

Two Words: Pleasure Pierce.

[samagon]

The best use would be to sell the land to places like the star of hope, all the displaced homeless people that live under the pierce will need a place to sleep, and the worlds longest star of hope would say to the world that we care.

[Montrose1100]

Two Words: Pleasure Pierce.

Don't give anyone any ideas...

[cloud713]

All 4 panelists (Midway, CBRE, Hines, Houston First) at the downtown redevelopment meeting today were supportive of the 45 reroute and enthusiastic about the changes the project could bring to downtown and the surrounding areas.

[ANTHONYHTOWN]

Not sure if this would be here but an idea has come up about if they re route I45 and could create the pierce elevated as a " pierce skypark" interested and to me sounds like a good idea and the article on what could be done below might also be a great thing.

 

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/gray-matters/article/What-would-it-take-to-make-Pierce-Elevated-a-6229895.php?t=d4d1ddeb2b&cmpid=twitter-premium

[j_cuevas713]

I really believe this has a strong chance of happening. If Houston would embrace more of what it is and not what it isn't, people would begin to appreciate it more. I love how the article talks about all the doubters for Discovery Green. Like it isn't complicated, you can't go wrong with a park! And I would love for this city to continue embracing how green it is year round. 

[BigFootsSocks]

Not sure if this would be here but an idea has come up about if they re route I45 and could create the pierce elevated as a " pierce skypark" interested and to me sounds like a good idea and the article on what could be done below might also be a great thing.

 

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/gray-matters/article/What-would-it-take-to-make-Pierce-Elevated-a-6229895.php?t=d4d1ddeb2b&cmpid=twitter-premium

Whatever you do, don't go to the Transportation forum...

[cloud713]

lmao BigFoot.. 

yeah, i still say tear the Pierce down and build any park space AT GROUND LEVEL. novel concept, huh? what good does a park do thats 20 feet in the air, with sporadic connectivity to said park? do you really expect them to build ADA certified connections on every block up and down the Pierce?

i wouldn't mind seeing a narrow elevated bike path along the old 45 ROW (connecting midtown/south downtown to Buffalo Bayou) allowing room for new developments along side them, but an elevated park is not the way to connect pedestrian activity between midtown and downtown.

[H-Town Man]

They should tear it down, build a park, and then inside the park build a little mini-Pierce Elevated with a museum inside honoring the memory of the real one. There could even be little bumper cars you could rent to go riding on top, and it could have the slight dips that give your car those little surges that you always loved most about it.

 

[cspwal]

And then when too many people are there or a bumper car breaks down, everyone can sit in the bumper cars, slowly moving towards the miniature exit ramp

Edited April 30, 2015 by cspwal

[j_cuevas713]

We don't need the Pierce, but some sort of narrow elevated path connecting Midtown to Buffalo Bayou would be cool.

http://www.wired.com/2014/08/copenhagens-new-bike-skyway-makes-commuting-look-fun/

I love this idea. We can tear it down and redesign an elevated path. You still get the great views of downtown.